Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Okay. Welcome back to House Education on April 8. The committee is gonna spend the next forty five minutes discussing both s two fourteen, which is the pre kindergarten in geographically isolated areas, and s two two seven, which is integration protocols in Vermont schools. Right now, we've got Erin Roche with us and Vermont director of First Children's Finance. And I am gonna imagine, because I didn't know, but this can be just an opener on what is First Children's Finance.

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Right. Well, thank you so much for having me. I just wanna make sure you can hear me okay.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: It might get choppy, but I'll tell you if it gets bad.

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Okay, great. I have a new microphone. It's very exciting. Just wondering if it's actually working. Great. So for the record, name is Erin Roach and I'm the Vermont Director of First Children's Finance. I think this is the first time I've spoken with this committee, so I wanted to introduce myself for the record. I don't have too much to say, but I really appreciate the opportunity and for having me here today. I did previously this session give testimony to the Senate Education Committee on this S-two 14 bill, and I reviewed the current official draft last night, and I'm really pleased to see that all the concerns and questions that I raised at that time seem like they have been addressed. And so I don't have any concerns or questions about the current S-two 14, But I thought since you invited me, I thought I would take a moment and just kind of introduce myself and First Children's Finance so that you're aware of what we do in case there's ways we can be helpful in the future. So a little bit about First Children's Finance, we're a national nonprofit. We started this Vermont office three years ago. I started the office after working at Let's Grow Kids for six years. Our mission as an organization is to grow the supply and business sustainability of excellent childcare in Vermont. And we do that through business training and consulting services, as well as access to capital for childcare entrepreneurs. And I'll just add, because maybe it's not obvious. We do all of this business training and consulting services at no charge to any childcare providers, which includes pre K programs if they want that kind of service. So I just wanna make sure it's clear. We have a contract with the Child Development Division and so our services are offered at no charge to any of the childcare or preschool programs in the state. We can also provide some guidance and consulting to Vermont employers and communities that are interested in creating or investing in childcare for their community or for their employees. We conduct research and data analysis in service of our mission in Vermont, including the 2026 cost of childcare model that we did in partnership with the child development division here in Vermont. Oh, here, here I say it. We offer all of our services at no charge through a grant from the state of Vermont. We also administer an infant and toddler capacity building grant program on behalf of the state. And we're engaged in several philanthropically funded pilot projects test innovative solutions to affordability and business sustainability of childcare in Vermont. So we do all kinds of things looking at the business of childcare, which as you know, includes pre K in a complicated relationship. But what I wanted to really draw your attention to today is that one of the pieces of research that we have undertaken this past year building on the work of Let's Grow Kids in the past is the 2026 Childcare Supply and Demand Gap Analysis that looks at how many spaces there are for infants, toddlers, and preschoolers in our state. We look at it statewide, we look at it county by county, and we also looked at a few municipalities in the state for the first time. So we look at how many spaces there are, and we look at how many young children there are that are likely to need full time childcare. And like I said, this is I think the sixth version of this report, we just took over doing it this past year. And so the link to that is in the written testimony that I provided and I would invite you to look at that as it is helpful to you. But the other thing that might be more relevant is that this year we did some supplemental reports to that. And one of them is a report we called Characteristics of Preschool Capacity in Vermont. So I'm thinking about this bill that is really looking to address a lack of capacity for pre K in Essex County, and it just might be helpful for you to look at some of the tables and graphs to really understand what sort of the supply and demand for preschool is in Essex County, as well as other counties. And let's see. And then the last thing to note, and I think what's really relevant to this bill is that while we look at the supply and demand and cost of care on a statewide and or county level basis, that in Vermont, our small rural towns can be really few and far between. And if you live in a county where there's plenty of childcare or plenty of pre K, if it's not in your town or in a town near you, then it might as well not be anywhere. That supply is really local. And if there isn't supply where you need it as a family with young children, it's not sufficient and we're not meeting the needs of our children. And so I think I think that S-two 14 really seeks to address that in this particular case, and I think it does it in a reasonable way because the K-twelve students are served in sort of a similar way. So that's really all I wanted to say. I just wanted to make sure you had data in case that's helpful, either in this or anything else that you're considering now or in the future. I wanted you to understand who we are and what we do in case you need anything in the future. I'm happy to take any questions if you have any questions.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Since you didn't really have any comments on the bill itself, you seem satisfied with it, I don't have any questions there. But the report you gave us the link to about characteristics of preschool capacity in Vermont. Yeah. I was just looking at the Essex County line and just need a little help reading it. 111 total preschool aged children, total licensed capacity 104, which almost means that there's room for almost everybody who's looking for preschool.

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Yes.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Preschool capacity in full time settings.

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Yes. Did you hop on that number? Yeah. I'd be happy to talk about that. Universal pre K provides ten hours of pre K, thirty five weeks a year. It follows the public school, the K-twelve school calendar, and it's ten hours a week for that period of time. But for some families that have all available parents working full time, ten hours a week might not be sufficient to have care for their children that enables them to participate in the workforce. And so this supply and demand report, and like I said, it's been done for a number of years, really looks at the supply of and demand for full time care for preschool aged children, as well as younger children. This brief also talks about the number of universal pre K licensed capacity by county. And so I guess I would draw your attention to that table, which is table three that shows in Essex County, the total universal pre K license capacity in full time settings is two, which is a little bit of a different picture, right? In this report, we did not look at the amount of part time care. There's a separate report that looks at part time care versus full time care. I'm happy to send that over if that's helpful. But I do think that this somewhat illustrates why this bill is important. It's important that the money follow the children where there is capacity to serve them.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: The total, again, at Essex County, the table you just brought up, total UPK licensed capacity, since there are no public schools there Oh, although this is Essex County, not just the district we're talking about. Never mind.

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Yes, yes. Yep.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Thank you. All right, any questions from the committee? Great, maybe you could talk, what were some of your concerns in the original bill?

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Oh, well, the original bill didn't specify Essex County. So one of my concerns was it was written in a very general way. And the first time I read it, I wasn't actually sure that it referred to Essex County, but it seemed like the solution was all about sending children to New Hampshire. And I was really concerned about what did that mean if there were children in a rural area in Windham County, for example, that maybe it made sense to go to Massachusetts, or I live in Addison County or on the New York border. So I just, that was my biggest concern about the bill was that it originally was written in a much sort of a more general and broad way, but my understanding was that it was actually only trying to address this one school district.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, definitely got much more specific then as it went Great, thank you very much for your time this morning. Appreciate it.

[Erin Roche, Vermont Director, First Children's Finance]: Yeah, thank you all. It's really nice to meet you and thank you for your service for our state. I appreciate it.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: All right, 11:30. We are now switching back to immigration protocols in Vermont schools. Jay, you can take the top seat.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Good morning, everybody. Good morning. Morning. Josh was leaving. That's what was hoping. You're stepping out. You're gonna hear all my testimony. For the record, Jay Nichols, senior executive director of Vermont Principals Associates. My comments today are for s two twenty seven as a past senate. Our testimony on this issue is consistent with testimony that we have delivered in both senate and house judiciary committees this session. We appreciate the general assembly seeking to provide any legal protections possible to protect our students, as well as any school employees that may be vulnerable for their own immigration status or even perceived immigration status. The time when we are dealing with increasing concerns around chronic absenteeism and the actions that make students fear attending school are bad for those students, other students, and society alike. We've advised our members after consultation with education legal experts that schools should only allow law enforcement and or ICE officials on campus if, one, they're invited by the school for a legitimate education reason or emergency, two, they present a judicial warrant, or three, they insist on entry despite objections, in which case staff not physically intervene with law enforcement official, whether they are federal or state. Before issuing any specific protocols or communications on these matters, we advise school leaders to consult with their district leadership and legal counsel to ensure consistency with applicable law and local laws. We, by way of being the VPBA, believe that many of the concepts included in S two twenty seven as it passed the Senate are already implemented in Vermont schools protected by current law, both federal and state. The AOE has worked with us and other associations to try and clarify rules regarding immigration enforcement around schools, procedures around what is allowed and what is not by FERPA and school districts have worked with legal counsel to safeguard student family rights. This bill as it passed the Senate references the Attorney General's office working with superintendents. Typically the interface between school system leaders in the state are conducted through the Vermont Agency for Education. Given the ongoing working relationship between superintendents and AOE, this might be a change that the Health Education Committee may want to consider. That said, any support that the General Assembly can provide parents and students that are more vulnerable school populations would be greatly appreciated and would help demonstrate to these populations that we value them. The VPA encourages you to use any tools in your legislative toolkit to protect all Vermont children and their parents who may be the target of immigration enforcement around schools. Having a baseline policy across the state that is in effect in each school district in the state makes sense to us. Additionally guidance for school districts in the way of a model template procedures that schools can use and adapt also makes sense. That's all I have for the prepared remarks, take any questions.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Can talk a little bit more about that part about the Attorney General's Office?

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Well, just because we work closely with the agency of education and their general counsel on education issues, I think there's already a relationship there. Now, I've been superintendent for ten years, but the secretary regularly meets with superintendents, legal counsel from the general counsel. I mean, if I call her or text her, she has limitations with me. We know they work closely with the attorney general's office. Also, one of the lawyers at the AOE is actually appointed to the attorney general's office. I just think that that relationship's already there. That's why I would suggest that. And to be fair, I've not listened to any other testimony on this bill. We've been pretty busy with a lot of stuff going on. So if somebody has given a reason why they should stay with the attorney general, that's fine. From my perspective, it makes more sense to have a go see the agency of education. It

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: seems that the role of the Attorney General in this is in consultation with the AOE just to develop a resource guide.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: I ask you the Great updates. Yeah, go ahead.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: On number three of the reasons that law enforcement or ICE should be allowed on campus, They insist on entry despite objections. Obviously, that would be a really scary and dramatic thing. Do you have any next step recommendations for staff or students in the case that they have forced their way into the school? Well,

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: if they forced their way in, that's when our law enforcement would get involved. We would get involved and we would seek judicial action in court. What I don't want as a teacher to be put in a position where she or he physically or a principal trying to stop somebody. We had to happen in Fairfax nine or ten years ago. It wasn't related to ICE, was related to a state trooper. And we interceded on behalf of the Fairfax School District with our lawyers, and that was resolved. But I would not want the principal to be there trying to physically stop an officer from coming into the building.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Understood. I think that the nature of my question was more like, would teachers at that point start to enact the parts of Alice training that they could have, like go into lockdown and You

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: know, the school district could make the decision to go into lockdown, but they would do that after they call their superintendent and their superintendent calls Leland and Blackman properly. And take his advice from that. Pietro and I have talked about this as well. He's a chief lawyer for Leland and Blackman. What we don't want to have happen is an educator to put themselves in physical That's what this is about, that doesn't occur. We have a great, we have a really good relationship with local police with state police. And I shared this testimony and these words with house and senate judiciary and police officers from both those committees that were like, that does make sense. We don't want

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: No.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: In terms of the

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Right, I'm just wondering what we can do instead, not physical contact, like, treated as a gunman. Often we put our kids in, not that I've had a real gunman, but we've practiced, like we put our kids into classrooms, it used to be getting a corner now, it's spread out.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Right. And Alice training is good, and so is run fun fight, I using one of those two trainings. If you have a law enforcement person that's insisting on coming in through the front door, I don't think we're gonna have that, but I do think we'd be better off trying to fight down the floor after the fact than putting an educator. Absolutely.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: One of the things this talks about is defining a non public area means an area of a school that normally requires authorization by the school to enter. That's probably something that is on a school by school basis, and it is probably going to be a principal who is going to decide when somebody shows up that is or isn't a nonpublic area. I think it was left very intentionally vague in this because some places might have a gated parking lot, other And places might

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: also the impact of the facility. So for example, you can make the argument that the cafeteria sometimes is a non public spot. Other times it's a public spot, it's a community event one night there. Same thing if you have an auditorium, same thing with a gymnasium. I like the more vague language to allow schools to respond in real time.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: That is basically my question, Dan. Yeah, thanks. And then it also says in this, that each school the superintendent oversees will designate at least one individual to serve as a resource for immigration related matters. That's probably going to

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: be the principal in many cases. Gonna be the principal.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Unless there's a teacher who wants to be that person. I'm not hearing any protests over that probably following on. I think it has to.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Not that any of my members are clamoring for the opportunity to do that, but I think it's gotta be the school leader.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And I guess, you know, to sort of think about what all of this means on the ground in the case of ICE showing up to arrest either a warrant or somebody who's either a student or a staff member, Just sort of, okay, what are the conflict points? And one is like, you can't go there because that's a nonpublic area. Or who's the one, you know, like having to take on that role of saying you can't go there, it's a nonpublic area, which I assume will be the principal in most buildings, assuming they're there that day. Just thinking out loud. Clearly did not have a question coming out of that.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: We would tell them the same thing that we're here. So if you have a judicial warrant, it's fairly easy. There's no judicial warrant, and I as an ICE officer insist on coming in anyway, we're gonna tell our principal, do not put yourself at a higher rate. Call your superintendent, call the VPA, we'll get a lawyer involved, we'll do whatever we can, but it's probably gonna be after the fact.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Meanwhile, I'm about to smuggle when you came out the back door.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: It already happened in my mediation. Very young.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: I'm wondering, I'm assuming that that still stands true if they are actually going as far as to remove a kid from the building, that we are not to interfere with them removing one of our students.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Right, what I'm gonna say now is we've had conversations with some communities around our sports events, where we've talked to places that host our sports events and had asked them for a room that we could remove students to on a team if we deemed it necessary. That's a little different. That's me taking the risk as opposed to the school principal, but they can also say, you know, sorry, classrooms are off limits. You can't go to the classrooms. But again, an armed ICE agent says, Get out of the way. I'm going to the classroom, then we're in a situation where we're asking our members, Do not engage, pick up the phone and call. Can't witness one? Yeah, we can't witness. I don't foresee that happening, but I realize that this is trying to give legs to stopping something from not happening. I think you know, in Senate Judiciary, one of the members there said to me, isn't some of this just feel good language? And I said, yeah, some of this is just physical language. But if we make our citizens feel valued, they feel like, we're getting reports about kids. I was talking to a paraeducator the other day. Paraeducator, she's not a teacher. She's got a bus, a walking bus in one of the communities where there's seven or eight kids that walk with her in school because the parents really trust her and she's bringing those kids to school. She's not gonna stop a law enforcement person or an ICE agent, but just the fact that she's walking the kids to and from school is giving those parents a sense of value, belonging, and feeling of safety. And those kids are now coming to school for a while, they learn.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And a lot of what's in here is, you know, in practice anyway, but it's clarifying. The purpose to us, all stuff that

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: we already advise our principals to do, what information to share, I'll show you. Chase?

[Unidentified Committee Member (House Education)]: So so you had mentioned the sporting event and then having a designated safe place to move students. Mhmm. Why would we need a designated safe place to move students if I'm just trying to understand what it is we're doing. Right? So here we're saying, don't let them in without a warrant.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Yep. When you're talking about a school now, we were talking about an event. Like we're the no.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Like we're

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: at the Barry Auditorium, there's thousands of people there and something happens, or we're That's using what I was referring to, it's different. Here, yes, it's a school, there's areas where we can say, that's a non public place, kids are in class, we do not allow people to come into students' classrooms. But again, it's like Sage says, I'm coming in anyway. We're not gonna try to stop that physically. Well, you're not advocating for the movement of students, staff as the result of agents coming into an interview. We're not advocating for that. That doesn't mean it won't happen. Not as PA is not advocating. Because then we're obstructing justice. That's the thing we would not want to do. That's what we're trying to do.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You bring up the point of basketball tournament at the very auditorium. If something were to take place there, who is in control of designating a public area or not a public area? Locker rooms, not a public

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: It'd be the locker rooms, and we would do it with Megan's CCO, who was the tournament chair. So basically her and I responded to a couple of schools that requested it, said we're gonna have a place that these kids can go to that's gonna be non public. Ultimately, if ICE agents show up there and insist on going through, going to go through and obviously they see kids or families coming in or out of the building. There's not much we can do to stop that. We would consider it a school event. We would say you can't do that. But again, we're not going to stand in the way. We're not going to obstruct justice. We're also not gonna physically, if we think the law officers are wrong, we're not gonna physically intervene. And we're telling our people not to do that, including teachers.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Leanne? I was just gonna ask to during school event. That's something I've been thinking about. Like, is there a way to get some language into this bill that makes I us feel like we kind of did this with the cell Well, we talked about doing the cell phone bill. I guess it didn't make it into the final cut where we were like, the school is mobile, right? Like if you're on a field trip, that's a school. And like, could we do something similar with this where like, if it's a school function, regardless of if it's in a museum, if it's in the Bay Area Auditorium, that's a school for those hours?

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Is it two nine and 02:07, the other ones that I testified on earlier? You guys don't know?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Don't know, but it's a good question. Have Leg Council coming in to

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: ask you about that. But there is language in both of those other bills that talk about I think it's S tools nine. Anyway, ones that passed to the judiciary committees. Those do have language in there that talk about school events and that includes on the way to and from field trips, the way to and from school. So those bills do have to.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Does it include the actual physical location of the field trip? The Vermont Historical Museum next door, the kids are there. So it's now a school for this hour.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I think it's probably a vague definition that says, if it's between school hours and you're on a school trip, you're in school. Yeah. Interesting. Any other questions for Jay before we Rob, anything? Great. Thanks as always. Appreciate it.

[Jay Nichols, Executive Director, Vermont Principals’ Association]: Thank you. Good seeing you all.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: All right, We are gonna sign off.