Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: We are at House Education on, I think, February 26. Do have my date That in front of

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: is correct.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: We're gonna spend a little bit of time before lunch for the committee to kind of regroup and talk a bit. If you recall the agenda up until late yesterday afternoon, said that the AOE was gonna be coming in with some new concepts for us to consider, maybe some ideas that might help move us forward. They pulled that back yesterday afternoon saying that they needed to get a little bit more data involved so they could do some modeling that could demonstrate what newer, larger districts would mean and what happens when you sort of shift sizes and whatnot. But they wanted to make sure their data was fully aligned before doing that. Thought that was fine. So I thought I'd throw a topic out on the table this morning to discuss because it's one that I think we sort of agree on in concept, but really haven't well defined. And so so we keep talking about we're all in favor of regional high schools and regional middle schools. But we're having a little trouble just saying what that exactly means. Are we talking about new construction? Are we talking about new construction? What role does geography play? Can an independent school be, one of the academies, be a regional high school? So anyway, yes. Just wanted

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: ask one more question into that list of questions. And can a smaller high school still exist in a region where there's a regional high school?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I'm not sure we can answer that question.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: No, but for me, that's part of it. Because when you say we're all in favor of regional high schools, I still have to have the ads.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: All right, well, me So I think the answer to that question is it depends. I think if you were listen to what was sort of promoted in H4504 from day one from the administration, yes, things could exist side by side, but maybe that small high school that's not too far from a regional high school is more of a magnet school that specializes in something. But ultimately, we just need, I feel we just need to admit to ourselves, our problem is declining enrollment. So I'd say the bigger question is, can we have this many high schools?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Yes. Not exactly on that topic, but I don't necessarily think we are talking all new construction. I think there are high schools, existing high schools that are geographically located in the right spot that

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: can absolutely And I'll add on to that. While some I 100 agree, Ian would say that some may require some investment in facilities. Either bring them up standard or to add.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: But not

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: a 100,000,000, right?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And we can all look at our own situations. We always bring up D32. Could be a service of the class. Space. Currently, lots of space to expand future. In Addison County, where I live, we've got three high schools, all of which have had significant declining enrollment. I think that there could be enthusiasm for a regional high school, But nobody's got the good central location. And how do you deal with that? You say we're going to close for gins in Mount Abe and send everybody to Middlebury, which is what Middlebury would like. That's a heck of a long drive from North Ferrisburg, which is right up by Charlotte down to Middlebury, which is farther south. So and the other thing that I lean to be to be very upfront when I think about regional high schools, I do think of it as in terms of. We need to consolidate high schools. Now, can there be a role for a satellite school if it's in any way would be a current smaller high school? I think that'd be up to the district, whether that's something that they can afford within their foundation for payment. Either we are acknowledging and addressing declining enrollment or we aren't. And that's sort of where I get challenged. Yeah.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: So because I'm the one who usually constantly brings up regional high schools, I'm gonna just share my thoughts. And first and foremost, my reason for saying it, before saving money, is opportunities for kids. I truly believe that we can do better in this state. Consolidation of schools is a very challenging topic in my region and all over the state. But when I speak to folks, the consolidation of high schools, middle and high schools, is less of a Most people share that that's less of a burden, given all the other geographic issues that are happening around the state. But first and foremost, opportunities. And I want to stay away from the Chair, have taught me to stay away from the topic of comprehensive high schools, because that has a very specific legal definition. But I really feel very strongly that regional middle and high schools should be offering, every one of them should be offering CTE programming. Now, I'm not saying every CTE program, I'm saying CTE programming. So that will still require some, what people tend to call, comprehensive high school, where there's a larger variety of some of the more physically limited programs. Every regional high school should have that. But then the last thing, I'll come back to what

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I said at

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: first. I do think that there is an opportunity to save money by doing this. It's the one place And I'm not I I'm going to emphasize the word think there because I've seen no modeling of the financial impact of this. But I think it's well worth us digging into and looking at. I think that even with the investment that we need to make, if we're going to move forward with regional middle and high schools in the state, that it will be, in the long run, a worthy investment. And we'll see not only financial benefits down the road, but I absolutely deeply believe we will see increased opportunities and then outcomes as well. So that's why I keep bringing it up. And I don't think we should be so daunted by the construction aid challenges, because that has been holding us up from doing this for really long time. We need to find a way around that. So, Craig, done.

[Rep. Leland Morgan (Member)]: Yep. That's great. Thank you. Leland? How does one approach the Burlington area as far as a regional high school is concerned when there are four or five big high schools within a fairly close proximity? How do you So I would say, you probably

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: don't, unless you're gonna build another really big high school. But you know, I think that those are probably all at scale. And they can serve as the regional high school for maybe some of the outer, you you are often concerned about the islands, they need a regional high school or a choice of regional high schools to That is their regional high school. Right. But I think when we think about those, the opportunity, I think in Chittenden County, the problem is that we don't have to climb. Got, I mean, we do in Burlington, we've heard about that. But South Burlington, they're probably oversubscribed. CVU is full. So I think that the opportunity for consolidation without really big building would be challenging.

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Just trying to, my own definition of regional high school really depends on, first of all, the size of the governance model that we're looking at. We're looking at how big is the district going to be and how many districts are we going to have. And it doesn't necessarily mean one regional high school per district. There could be north regional, a south regional within a district. So I'm just kind of, in my head, redefining, trying to redefine my thoughts about the region.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Yeah, absolutely. Professor Brown? I was going say,

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: it seems like as we've had the conversation around the table, everyone sort of agrees on certain areas of the state that are sort of ripe for doing some of this transformation work, maybe without significant investment or building a new high school. I mean, Are we working towards a place where maybe we would come up with some sort of regional high school transformation pilot on a really small scale just to see what's possible? Where are we starting in this conversation? Let's start with Milton. With Rutland. We heard some good stuff from I Doctor.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Kind of wanted to get some I think we should be very clear. We've talked about our tiny elementary schools in our small communities, how important they are. We don't want to see those close. The same issue, mean, we talk about regional high schools and incentivizing them is a very positive way of talking about closing smaller high schools. I think we can look at certain areas and bring up Rutland County where it is right for it. So the question is, how do we our concept and then turn it into a reality? It may very well face the same opposition that we face in every attempt to consolidate.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Yeah, and I'll just add on to this conversation. I'm the one that brought up the pilot idea yesterday, just threw it out there, but without thinking about any specific school, as I said at the time. But I do want everyone to remember what I brought up in conjunction with that, the concern I have about public school deserts in the state. So I just want to make sure that we're keeping that in front of our thoughts, because we do not want to create public school deserts in any local region in this state.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: That is why I wrote down this question, can a historic academy be a regional high school? Don't need to debate it now. What's that? I would expect that they say they are. Yes, no, but I'd say in sort of this concept, it brings up the question of Danville, for example. That's a very small high school right next to a large regional independent school. Closing it would create, in fact, a desert. But if they are sort of embracing the role of historic academies, to what extent is it the desert, I guess? Yes.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Not to mention, I think you said that people of the Anfield voted just two months ago overwhelmingly that they don't want vote for their schools. Would you take that into account as well?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Oh yeah, no, all I'm saying is the concept of an independent school being a regional high school. Right. And if we're gonna, you know, is that something that people can't accept or can't accept? It's really more about

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: it as you stand for less than an But

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I guess, Leanne, I think the challenge and that was absolutely overwhelming. How do we have a pilot project? How do we do anything if we don't somehow are there any sticks people could be comfortable with that would lead to the resizing of our footprint based on our declining enrollment?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: This is a great discussion, and I'm all for original high school, but how does this fit within the Act 73? Are we looking at trying to attach funding? Yes.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Would say that I think we all need to get comfortable if we're gonna move forward with anything out of this committee. There are areas where I think that we have some agreement and that my goal is to be able to move something out of here that everybody's got something that they feel good about. I also think the regional high school concept with funding attached also gives something, Emily has said repeatedly, for people to look forward to. But, you you don't have a regional high school without a region attending the high school. That's the

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: sticking point, right there?

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Right. We also can't forget the challenges that are going on in the buildings that we have around the state, especially those who

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: are facing PCD challenges. I

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: mean, our constituents, our residents in State Of Vermont want our schools to be healthy. And that needs to be a part of this consideration.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So if we were to have something in a building that comes out of here, we've had the floating concept of a pilot. What do people think something that would go out of here would look like? Look like?

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: A pilot area that's going to have this pilot school to see if it's going to work out and everybody's going to be happy, where would it be?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, so we could come up with, don't necessarily have to define anything. We could just say, you know, it could be all part of the school construction part of things. But we could, you know, we could say areas that are willing to consolidate high schools would qualify for school construction aid in the regional high school of whatever percent it might take. Or, I mean, in the case of U32, which probably doesn't even need the investment in order to take in everybody from L'Opillier, for example, how do you incentivize that in other ways?

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: And that would be the pilot.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Robert, do what?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I think what you're asking is, what do we mean by a pilot? Yeah.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Like something small scale is time limited. I have plenty of room for them, Matt.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, Representative Brown brought up the pilot concept this morning, so she can define it.

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: I have some thoughts. Guess more about scale and maybe sort of a time limited trial period. Clearly, we're struggling to find dollars to invest in the change that we need. So it's like, if we can take one small step that can hopefully create some kind of measurable outcome, at least that's something. It's not the answer, but it's part of the answer.

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: And I'm looking at it a little bit differently, just totally off the cuff. It's going to be hard for me to vote yes on something that's going attach more money now.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: It's going to what? What worked,

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: with what we're involved in right now. That's totally off the cuff. I need to think that through.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, think your big question would be, where's the money coming from? Totally. But that's a legit concern that we all have.

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: Yeah. Right. And then we're also running into the brick wall if we can't make change without money from somewhere. So yeah, we're totally stuck in those two very hard places.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, mean, I think people are out there trying to figure out how we could do something with school construction aid. Very happy on the money. Well, my goal here is to just sort of find some common ground, find some things that people can be excited about, but we gotta move beyond sort of way up your concept and like, well, what do we actually mean by what a regional high school is? And, you know, as I keep saying, it all means change If we want this regional high school concept to pay off, it requires some change that people are not going be very happy about. So I actually think that having this conversation at this level is really important because if we're heading in this direction, whether we've

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: made all the decisions about whether we do a pilot, whether we have school construction aid, all of that stuff needs to be dealt with. But we are signaling to the state of Vermont that we believe in improving the education in our state. And one of the ways you do that is this. And it only takes one region to decide they're going to take a step forward on their own. I mean, without us pushing this conversation, even before we make the decisions, we're not willing to get support locally for it. And I think this is a really important conversation to have. And if we, in concept, agree with this, we'll find a way through this.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: Just to further so we have a regional school system. How does that fit in now with what we've been talking about as far as school districts? What's the correlation? Does the district thing go away and we just focus? No, this is not,

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: and, again, I just hope everybody understands that when I talk, I'm talking about I'm I'm speaking just as if I'm one of you. I would I I don't think no. It's not in in lieu of at this you know, certainly not at this point. There were lots of political realities out there. We have a governor who has said, give me maps. I continue to say, I think we run a real risk that doing nothing means we have a foundation formula and no tools to adjust to a foundation formula. Or we have caps and no tools to adjust to the caps. We can all in here be very supportive of unlimited funding for education, but I'm not sure that that's gonna rule the day. No. The voters do get

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: a Exactly. But,

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: yeah. So, no, I am not saying that this is a one and only, but how can I continue to get stymied in my head? Everything that we talk about doing is basically hard and, you know, change that is being forced due to our demographics at high cost. So I'm trying to find a silver lining that, you know, would get people motivated about Vermont moving in a direction that recognizes our declining enrollment, but also improves opportunity for students. But every, I mean, there's not a path we can go down here that isn't bumpy and rocky. Again. Or we don't go down a path at all. We just say, well, we

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: do what we do. Regional thing to start with. At least I noticed around that room that actually ears perked up a little bit, like there might be something here to talk about further as opposed to.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah. And I I would, you know, echo what Emily said. We don't have the data, but I I it's hard to imagine that regionalizing at that level at a minimum isn't a money saver. And more importantly, it really ramps up opportunities for students.

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: Well, I mean, at a minimum, it might be taking from buildings offline that could have future facilities needs.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: There's that.

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: I do not love the idea of, you know, like even with U32 and the idea of creating a pilot program, and I even love the idea of saying, okay, let's make it a community process. It's not gonna be 32 anymore. It's not gonna be about going high school. Know, there's right? I mean, like Absolutely. That kinda goes

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: with the mascot, we change the name. Everybody's part of the process. Exactly. For sure.

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: You see, and that goes along with I've always believed that too. If you're gonna take stuff away, you gotta give them something. Not just more opportunities, but kind of something to look forward to.

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: In some ways, really, wonder if anything, and even in the intent of Aboriginal schools, was there

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I think there is language about regional

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: There was something

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: high schools and something middle schools. Centralized middle schools, regional high schools. High schools. I mean, it all sort of means the same thing, but it means consolidation

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: as well. But there's also the concern of the CTEs. There'd have to be some correlation there, some proximity or something. Geography plays a

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: big role. But I think when you think about the areas that are sort of ripe for this, they're all within the same CTE regions.

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: Starting with a place like that would make sense, right? Right. But how do you say

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: How do you go? We're going to do a pilot project and we're going do it at U32, and so I'm telling you, you all go to U32. It's the CTE It's that the

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: tour of last year? Yes. It's. Spaulding? Yes. Okay.

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: And let's go down there?

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Yes. And suddenly, send to Randolph if we have to.

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: Okay. So that gets you

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Just the programs get They're full.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Or different.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Yeah. Or different.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And wasn't there there there was going to

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: be an expansion of Spaulding, wasn't there?

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: There was big bonds to try to create huge new buildings.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Right, or just for the CTE, right?

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Well, if Spalding kids came to thirty two, that would create more swings for CTE.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: When I asked the

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: redistricting task might brings out to help make my phone

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: without Oh, absolutely.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: We can have props here.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Right. For example

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: You start

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: to work in a

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: color case example. Yes. So each of these is a CTE region. I tried to do it in college so that we can kind of follow. The one that was the hardest was down here, think, because this is like why they said they didn't adopt this map when I asked one of the members of the task force is because this is a CTE desert down here and they just weren't close enough to do

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: You should point out where the CTEs are. Not just there, it's also up in Springfield. So there's one in Springfield. Up and that's in this center.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: So I guess what I'm wondering is like in thinking about the region, would regional pilots maybe choosing, because the CTEs themselves could be potentially a regional high school. And so choosing one of the CTE regions that is the closest to what we might describe as a CTE desert for the regional high schools and building a second CTE in that area. And if it works, knowing that we have these other high schools that already exist could be added on together with more construction money, but that this one would need a new one anyway if we were to go with something like CTE districts. So like doing it there, does that make sense what I'm trying to say?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I got a little lost when you said CTEs could be regional high schools. Well, could it be? If you're talking about the high school that's attached to the CTE? Yeah,

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: yeah, that's what I mean. A lot of them have the high schools attached right to them. North Country, Svalbard, North Country, North So asking if they would be interested in the pilot program, bringing another one that has a CTE slash high school built there really well.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, that's a $200,000,000 problem.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: You're pointing out Southern Vermont, so just to Southern Does my area need another comprehensive in Southeast Vermont career center? I'm not saying that. Not saying they don't. I'm just not saying that. What I do believe is that the high schools that are there need more access to CTE programming. So that's a different thing than what you're talking about, because you're talking about this, Go ahead. But you see,

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: if we take, I don't know what are the dividing lines, but basically, since you talked about that region a fair amount, we've got Brattleboro Union High School, we've got Twin Valley Union High School, Leland and Gray, and then now we are over to Bennington.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Well, you go in that direction, but we've got no response to.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Right? But if I'm going to the other side of the state

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Then you've got Bennington.

[Rep. Kate McCann (Member)]: Bennington has the main US. Yeah.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: That's a large stretch of forest there. Big crowds. Yeah. But not many people.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: I'm not sure if I understood the distinction you were making though, between in saying that your teacher needs more CT access, but that's not the same as needing another CT? Because isn't

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: there Well, piece what I'm saying is every school needs CT programming. So high school, middle high school. And I'm going to slash middle high school because we're all talking about when do we start access to CTE programming. So I'm not making this statement about that. I'm just saying I want it to be on our radar. What I'm trying to say is there are some CTE programs, all of you who are more involved as educators know this, that require specialized facilities. And I think those can be more farther apart. I don't think there needs to be that specialized program in every regional high school is what I'm saying. So you might be able to try, like right now, folks who want to do

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Geosomechanics. Thank you. I'm thinking more about

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: the building arts That one's

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: specialized, diesel mechanics is specialized, but if you were doing early childhood development and you put

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: in a little daycare, you could

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: put that in. Still going to take a little money to We were

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: all the things that we used to call shop, but are now computer guided design machines. They don't actually take up very much space.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: We took a tour of Spaulding and saw a whole bunch of programs that were contained within the classroom. And they needed digital connection. They needed the infrastructure from IT, that that will be required. But it doesn't mean that you can't provide that in a deadline.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Right, I'm not necessarily trying to suggest that every regional high school needs to be a CTE, but just that maybe that's a place where it might be more amenable to something with more CTE access being a little closer, because that's where it gets the farthest apart.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, it's hard for us. Yeah, we have to think about, we're not gonna have $200,000,000 to throw around to five different places. That's the big challenge. Yeah.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: You talk about school construction funding in this room. Is this being considered anywhere else in this building at this point?

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Could it become a, yeah.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: What kind of school construction money are we, mean, that would, I think, help inform this conversation.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I don't think we know really yet. I think in ways and means, I think they're trying to figure out how it might work. But, you know, dollars 20,000,000 a year. I mean, this is up against a $6,000,000,000 need. But the fact is, it will still require local share. That gets into newer, larger districts, how you bond and all of that. So there's some complicating factors there to think about.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: I mean, it's important to name what the previous programs were. And the previous school construction date was 30% for approved. They all had to be pre approved. It was all based on square footage and all sorts of The AOE had the whole program within the AOE, and they had very specific requirements. So you would be able to get 30% school construction aid if you met those requirements. But if you were going beyond those, you didn't get the aid from the part that was beyond those. So I want to make sure that people understand that they have to be really specific. There's specific criteria around them. But if you were merging schools, you could get 50% funding if you were closing

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: That was a little bit of a short term.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: It was. And there was also a CTE CTE proposal where you get school construction.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Definitely different financial times. Back in the years where there were federal dollars flowing to the state.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: There were. That was like twenty years ago now. And we've had a moratorium on it since then. I mean, who knows what we could afford to put out there? So let me tell. I'm just going say it needs an investment and a decision about the program. And then it needs not only an initial investment to start the fund, which we'll have to come up with, then it also needs a dedicated source of revenue annually to go going into it. We're going to actually be serious about school construction.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Or dedicated appropriation every So

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: when we talk about doing a regional pilot program, what we're really talking about is asking two schools to merge or more than two into a building that already exists and not necessarily offering them any money to do that.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, that's the question is how do you incentivize it? I mean, you got carrots and you got sticks

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: I'm just not sure we see any solutions here because it seems like every solution we bring up, we're like, no, we can't do that for this reason. We're just spinning our wheels here.

[Rep. Jana Brown (Clerk)]: Then it's a mistake.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, can do this by forcing

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: There's lots of reasons Yeah. Not to do