Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Welcome everybody to House Education 02/12/2026. We're gonna turn our attention now to Bill H six forty, an act relating to adding voting student members to school district. Had some great testimony from young people in Vermont about this. We feel it's an issue worth hearing more about and pursuing. And so we've invited in the people who represent the school boards. So please introduce yourselves and look forward to your testimony. Thanks for being here.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: Thank you very much for inviting us. I'm Sue Seglowski. I'm the executive director for the Vermont School Boards Association. And I'm Floridia Smith, and I'm the vice president of Vermont

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: School Boards Association. It's nice

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: to to be with you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on page six forty. As you know, this bill would require the addition of voting students, school board members. We'll start out by saying the VSBA highly value student voice and has a long standing resolution, which was adopted by our membership way back in 2001. And that resolution reads, the VSBA believes that local school boards benefit from having an ongoing student voice in their discussions of all school matters that are not subjects of executive sessions. The VSBA encourages its members to include students as active participants in the consideration of educational issues and favors the participation of students as board members. The VSBA will provide guidance and support to boards to achieve this objective. And in response to that resolution and the VSBA's values, we developed and also recently revised a guide to student voice. I linked to that guide in my written testimony. And we also partnered with the National Student Board Member Association to provide a workshop on this topic at our annual conference in October 2025. We also have a webinar scheduled for this April, titled Elevating Student Voices on the Board, which will explore the growing role students can play in school board governance and why their perspectives matter. As the people most directly impacted by board decisions, students bring insight, creativity, and honesty that can strengthen decision making and school climate. More Vermont school boards are recognizing that when students are meaningfully included, boards benefit from fresh thinking, clearer connections to school communities, and stronger trust. Because data on student school board members in Vermont is not comprehensive, the VSBA surveyed all school board chairs in the past few weeks to collect information about the current status of student school board members in Vermont. And here are some data points. We had 37 board chairs respond. 19 boards indicated that they have student board members, which was 51%. Four indicated that, seats are sometimes unfilled. The median number of student school board members was two, and grades eligible, for the role were grades nine through 12 with junior and senior being the most common. Selection is most commonly done by the school principal with an application and interview process. All 37 respondents indicated that students do not have full binding voting rights. Some boards allow students to cast an advisory vote. Only one respondent indicated that the student board member attends executive sessions, and only two respondents indicated that the student board member receives remuneration. Vermont school boards vary, in size across the state, both in their structure. We have supervisor union and school district and in the size of the board. To highlight the variation in board member count across the state, we've included a graph in our written testimony that shows, several boards consisting of three members and others having a count in the upper teens. As introduced, H-six 40 would require every school board that is organized to provide education for its students in grades nine through 12, both operating and tuition, to have four voting student members on the school board, one each from grades nine, ten, eleven, and twelve. Additionally, the bill requires every school board that is organized to provide education for its students in grades seven through eight, both operating and tuitioning, to have two nonvoting student members on the school board, one each from grades seven and eight. Therefore, in a small district that operates or provides tuition for students in grades seven through 12, there would be six student board members, four of whom have the power to vote. And this group of students could join a board of five locally elected school board members. States that currently require student members on school boards include Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and New York. None of these states require more than one student board member, and none of them, allow student board members full voting rights. Maryland does not require a student member for every local school board, but it is a leader in allowing participation. Eight of Maryland's 24 local school districts have student board members with voting rights, covering over three quarters of the state's public school students. According to the National Student Board Member Association, only one of those eight has full voting rights. The VSBA and the National Student Board Member Association share the recognition that to be successful, boards will need to have several practical questions resolved. These concerns center around training and onboarding, confidentiality, especially in executive sessions where superintendent evaluations are discussed and student hearings are held, fairness and accessibility to all students, appointment and selection process, continuity year to year, and clarifying the student board member's role. We also wonder if Student Board members emails would be subject to public records requests. Some of these issues might be addressed by the Voting Ward Working Group, which was created under Act 73 to consider how school boards would be created, elected, and operated in newly formed districts. That working group has already discussed its general interest in incorporating student voice into new school boards. I'll hand it over to Flor to close. Yeah, in closing, we met last night and that's how we

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: came up with this testimony. So in closing, we must remember that student voice matters because students are not just participants in our schools. They are the primary stakeholders. Decisions about students should not be made without students. When we intentionally create space for student representation with strength and trust, increase transparency, and improve decision making, students bring lived experience, insight, and urgency that adults alone cannot replicate. To summarize, the VSBA fully supports student representation as an important and meaningful way to elevate student voice within school communities. We believe that the number of school board members should align with the structure currently used by the state school board. Two members with two year terms, one in eleventh grade and one in twelfth grade, with the twelfth grader having voting rights and careful consideration given to the unique context of each local board. We also believe that laws should not be overly prescriptive. Student representation on a board is one important pathway, and it's not the only one. And we must be intentional about giving students real agency in our decision making process. That means engaging not only student board members, but also student councils, student clubs, and other student leadership groups. It means building structures that invite feedback, dialogue, and partnership. When we do this well, we move civic engagement, share responsibility and mutual respect. That's more of a system within a school. If we are serious about strengthening our schools, then we must be serious about listening to the voices of those we serve. Encountering students is not symbolic. It's essential. As the consideration of this bill progresses, we urge the General Assembly to consider important factors such as fairness, representation in student appointment selection, sensitivity of topics discussed in executive session, and training needs of both students and full boards and student protections. So, thank you for listening to us.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Thanks. I'm glad you brought up the State Board of Education, which has been using this model for a while. I was going to ask if that would be a model that works. When you say it shouldn't be overly prescriptive if we move forward, could you talk about sort of the guardrails we should put on and the guardrails we shouldn't put on if we were to move to a SBE model, for example?

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: I think we would want to, or you would want to probably check with legislative council. One footnote that we added was that allowing voting student board members may raise complex legal constitutional and liability issues. So it would be important to have advice from your legislative counsel on those areas. And I think the reference to not being overly prescriptive was partially in reference to the grades that are listed in the bill.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: And that's what I meant by, I can give you an example, if you're familiar with this, that our district we have two school board members, it's an eleventh grader and a twelfth grader, but I do believe that that should be the context that we should say two student numbers, and I think we can assume that it's just 11 or 12 graders sometimes. We have some freshmen or other kids that might be available and that should be up to that school board to design with the principal and the superintendent. And students know best who should represent them.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You mentioned you should be aware of certain constitutional and other issues. Could you elaborate a little bit? I assume one of them is that having a voting member, a student voting member who is not elected by the voters is one of those issues.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: Yes. And I think particularly when voting on fiscal issues, like the budget.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So how do you handle that?

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: They're an advisory. They don't vote. It's interesting. They don't vote in our decisions, but when students speak, or listens, so they can really drive our decision making. When they bring data to us, we listen to the data. They have a particular way of engaging, and if anything, sometimes my student board members are more engaged and more informed, and I mean that respectfully.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I was thinking when we had the young folks in earlier, the Harvard model where they have two as well, and they do float. That's just sort of an expression, although that boat is advisory only. Rob? Yeah, I might be misremembering this from the bill presentation itself, and you had mentioned this, like executive session votes, like hiring, firing, that sort of thing, like they wouldn't be involved in that, right? It wasn't in the bill?

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: That's not covered in the bill, but that was a point that should be

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: cleaned Yeah, that makes sense.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: You don't want students filling Even in by their own

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: though it might not go in.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: In our district, they don't go into executive session.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: No executive session, no student hearings, no super And independent when I say overprescriptive too, it's just like you need to let the school district really decide what is the best way to bring that student voice. We can't, I always say this, but I was not going to say it, but you can't always legislate common sense, and you're creating a system, and you want to bring the student voice and be thoughtful about how you should do it. So, I'm not saying it's not important because it's really important. You can't get it wrong.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: In terms of your footnote that allowing voting students, school board members under the age of 18 could raise constitutional and liability issues, legal issues, Has Maryland been sued for their voting school board members? Yes,

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: I believe there was a lawsuit. And I looked at it very briefly. I believe it found in favor of the student board members. And each state has its own constitution, and I think it's dependent upon each state's own constitution.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: Yes, percent. In regards to being overly prescriptive or not being overly prescriptive, I'm worried about the number of members as well. Because as you showed, there's a wide variety and size of school boards across the state. Some of them are quite large, some are quite small. So even saying two members, that could possibly be prescriptive, maybe. That's why you have to take into context a local board, if you have a board of five people, and then you're adding two more members. More student members. That is a lot of balanced decision making, especially if you are talking about representation, right, and how the voters will feel, or how the student board members might be lobbied, especially if they're going to move into smaller potentially into a change of governance, those seats might become more political, which we're trying to avoid.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I'd just say, because we're Vermont, we've got many different ways of doing things. And so, do you have two student members on a five member board of a non operating district that really doesn't get involved with school policy whatsoever? Every couple of months they get together and approve money.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: And also in response to your question, I did look at the laws in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and New York. And I believe all of them say shall have at least one. That doesn't mean you can't have more than one. A lot of

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: boards have to. In that at least language. Okay, thank you.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: On page three, you talk about in order for this to be successful, there would need to be training and onboarding about confidentiality, executive sessions, etcetera. Is there a specific kind of training or onboarding that all members of every public school board have to go through? Like, would it make sense

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: for the students to accept?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: My

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: question is, are you asking the students to have

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: to go through something different or the same that other elected members go?

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: We provide, training for all new school board members. They are not required by law to participate in it. And so I think that the training for the student board members, could be incorporated into that. There's also, training available through the National Student Board Member Association that is tailored specifically to student board members and helping them to elevate their voice.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: So we should add that into a bill, maybe that they participate in that training if you decide?

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: You could, but again, would that be overly, I think you might want to just say training rather than specifying which training because you know. You're a little

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: more flexibility. Regular school board members. I was nodding my hair because it's like that's best practice. All superintendents and all chairs are trying to make sure that your boards are doing continuing education so that they learn how best to have good governance across our district. So if we prescribe it for students, but we're not prescribing it for board, it's not required for Chair. Chairing is required.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Everybody understands there is one requirement.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: There is one requirement. Comparison superintendent to do eight hours of training annually.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And there is, I would say, zero enforcement. You've been a chair for many years. Mean, the big sort of final question here is, do you think that this is something that should be mandatory or not? In other words, should we mandate that we might narrow it to all school boards that govern a K-twelve or whatever we put that at. Let's say we're creating all new districts and every new district is a K-twelve board, should we mandate that there be at least one student representative?

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: Think that our board would agree, yes.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I'm just frankly surprised about the amount of resources that are out there and that there is a National Student Board Member Association.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: I was just speaking to their executive director last week in Washington, D. C. When we were there.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Alright, so it's like a full organization with a It's big

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: a very team. Thank

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: you. Are you feeling able to just transition right into the next round of testimony?

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: Yes, and floor is going

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: to do it with me.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Okay, great. Make sure that the agenda reflects that as well. Then feel free to continue when you're ready.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: Okay, thank you. So thank you for inviting us to provide testimony on the Conlon draft map. Once again, we are Sue Seglowski, Executive Director of the Vermont School Boards Association and Flor Diaz Smith, the President of the VSBA Board of Directors. As noted in earlier testimony to this committee, the VSBA developed, its own set of criteria for evaluating any proposals that emerged through the Act 73 process, reflecting the needs and priorities identified by school board members from across the state. And those criteria are laid out in our position paper responsible implementation of Act 73. I'll just pass that around. I think you've seen it before, but the criteria are on the backside of this document. We supported the Redistricting Task Force's proposal because it creates the conditions for meeting these criteria, and we encourage the legislature to build upon the work of the task force by refining the proposal and filling in the details. Last night, the VSBA board evaluated Chair Conlon's draft map and legislative language using the same criteria from our position paper. In doing so, they acknowledged that it would be difficult for any initial proposal to meet all of the VFBA criteria, given that some of the criteria require significant analysis and planning. The real test is whether the proposal creates the conditions for meeting the criteria. For instance, earlier in the legislative session, the VSBA Board concluded that the hybrid scenario presented by the Agency of Education a few weeks ago, containing 13 districts with a minimum district size of 4,044 and a maximum district size of 9,122 contained districts that were too large to maintain a strong sense of community within each district and would represent a drastic change from Vermont's current number of 119 school districts. And for that reason, it was evident that the hybrid scenario did not create the conditions to meet the rest of the VSBA criteria. In contrast, Chair Conlon's proposal creates smaller districts ranging from nine eighty four students to 4,421 students. And in general, the Conlon map recommends parameters for district size that are large enough to allow efficiency at scale, but small enough to maintain a strong sense of community and personalized attention to every student supported by research. And here we link to the BSA instructional scale policy Brief and the, citations that are in that brief. That said, we appreciate that the Conlon map was presented as a starting point needing refinement. The VSBA Board discussion last night indicated that the map does not always recognize and address significant variation across different regions of the state, including student demographics, community resources, other geographic considerations. For example, District Number 14 in the Northeast corner of the state covers a large geographic area, which would pose significant challenges to maintaining a strong sense of community in that new district. If the committee furthers its exploration of the Conlon map, we urge you to seek meaningful input from district leaders and school boards in that area and other areas most affected by these changes and make adjustments to ensure that a strong sense of community can be built and maintained within each new district. In addition, we call for detailed cost analyses to determine if there are cost savings projected by this proposal. Turning now to the draft legislative language, the SBA appreciates the proposal's general approach to contracting and designation reflected in the draft language, which would require a school district to designate public or approved independent schools and enter into contracts when necessary to serve resident students. This reflects an intention to maintain access to educational opportunities for all students while redefining how those obligations are structured. Given the larger size of the districts in the Conlon proposal as compared to the current district sizes, we ask you to consider whether school districts should be able to designate more than three public or approved independent schools to provide education for students who do not have reasonable access to a public school within the district. Additionally, it will be important to have a clear definition of reasonable access. And I'll turn it to Floor now.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: In closing, we appreciate the work that has gone into into representatives, Collins Map, and the conversation it has sparked. After facilitating our VSBA board meeting last night, it is clear that we, as school board members across the state, have a great deal to offer you, and we're committed to working alongside you as this proposal moves forward. The general consensus is that this is a step in the right direction. However, it's still a starting point. A map rather than a plan grounded in a unified vision and a mission for Vermont entire pre K-twelve education system. As we shared, while we see progress, we must now take that time to examine areas that present geographical challenges or feel more like attachments rather than unstuckfully integrated areas in the state. As you continue this work, we urge you to ensure that the proposal fully addresses the criteria before you, it must recognize and respond to the significant variations across regions, student demographics, community resources and geography. It must emerge from a collaborative, inclusive and transparent process that meaningfully engage residents, families and educators, district leaders and school boards. It must be supported by detailed cost analysis of current district finances and clearly projected savings. It must include a comprehensive transition plan, and I can't emphasize this enough. To minimize disruptions, it's adequately funded and strengthens our investment in safe, modern learning environments. The intent is to create a more efficient and cost effective system that addresses rising costs, health care benefits, mental health supports, facilities, and an investment in first instruction education, then that must be clearly articulated. And most importantly, it must be grounded in data and evidence that shows how redistricting will improve student outcomes for all learners. As you move forward, we encourage you to consult directly with school board members from different regions on the stage to understand how this proposal may work or not work on the ground. We are willing to facilitate this and make sure we bring forward members of different regions. The committee needs more information and you need the right questions guiding this effort. We look ahead, VHVA remains committed to working with the legislature and the governor to shape the future of public education in Vermont. Real change takes steady leadership, it takes trust, it takes people willing to stay at the table even when it's hard. Our students need stability, fairness, and decision grounded in real data. Together, we must ensure that our public education system remains strong, steady, and center on equity for every student in our communities. Thank you.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Asked this question the other day to some witnesses as well. The statement that it must be grounded in data and evidence that show how redistricting will improve student outcomes for all learners. I think we can show well that it can increase student opportunities and sort of perhaps reduce the continued curtailing of opportunities in an environment where we are mostly cutting budgets, what do we do in the absence of being able to assure, I don't know how you assure that by providing equitable funding and that translates into better student opportunity, I don't think we can make the leap and say we can guarantee it's gonna improve student outcome because there are so many other factors the world that play a role in that. Yet that is sort of a hard criteria here.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: That's a fair point. I think that starting with providing equitable opportunities is a good start in that direction. Yeah, and I

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: think I would add to that, that we're gonna need a well funded and staffed agency verification that is able to help us through the transition of this. And we need to, I would go ahead and say, we need to be fully inside that agency, so that transition every two years doesn't affect how we're gonna have to, because this is gonna be two years or more before it's fully, so we need that to be solid too in order to have better outcomes for our kids.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I appreciate the point of view that we need a commissioner, not a secretary, to depoliticize that. That's probably not going to happen. And I guess, so is that, are you saying that really the SBA would have a difficulty feeling confident in moving forward until that happens?

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: Absolutely not, no. What I mean by saying that, Kevin, is that we need a really strong agency of education in order to support the change on the ground in all of our departments. And I'm not saying that we don't have one right now, I'm just saying that that is a factor. How do we come together, because they can help you as you're doing the plan right in assuring that it's going be best outcomes for kids. How do we bring that language into the bill, so that it's not just theoretically what we're doing? So, they have been doing a lot of work on visioning, what is the visioning that we as a state want for all of our kids, what do we want for public education in Vermont? So, I'm saying is that this is a good start, let's try to talk to all of the regions, so we make sure that it works for the regions, especially the ones that we feel that it might be just a little and that was the conversation we had last night, but there is Totally appreciate that. Yes. Yeah. So I I don't mean to make this bullet. I'm just I'm just I was just stating a reality. Right? But We are willing to work with you and we feel like right now we have the conditions to make that possible if we all work together.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Some of the criteria here, as you had said in your opening, really hard to meet all these criteria no matter what you put out there, But be based on a unified vision and mission for the law's education system, cannot argue with that. But that's not our job that law is working with the State Board of Education and the Agency of Education.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: They need to partner with you. Yes.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, I think that they would say that moving to a more efficient system and a foundation formula and everything that they have proposed, they would say it absolutely meets the mission and vision of the state. We're almost tasked with like, okay, now turn that into a statute and law to operationalize it. So, I grow concerned that as we sort of raise the level of you've got to hit every one of these bars, it stops us from hitting any bar. And I think trying to make progress in the world as we have today is very challenging, as you very well know as of today. So I get concerned when it's hard to get even the organizations whose goals are all about kids and equitable opportunities and all of that saying, well, move forward once hit all these benchmarks, because we end up with a chicken and egg issue, which comes first. I appreciate it, but that's just a concern I have with some of this. Representative Long? I appreciate that perspective that

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: we just heard, and I also know that it's a member organization and you're gonna have to have a variety of perspectives to base this criteria on. And so I'm sensitive to that. I want to sort of go in that same direction and ask about something else you're saying, which does seem a little more tangible. And if you could just expand let me back up and lay this out. When Act 73 started to be discussed before it was even a bill, my opinion is the impetus behind it was to the rising costs of education and property taxes going up. And so that was a drive to make the decisions that happened down the road from there. In here, say it must be supported by detailed cost analysis of district finances and clearly projected savings. And yet we've been having a really hard time with the modeling piece because so many things need to be in place before we can model anything. So essentially, committee will correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation was we were told yesterday we really can't model the foundation formula until we have districts decided on. And so I would just love to hear you expand on that statement that you just put in here about clearly projected savings, especially.

[Sue Ceglowski (Executive Director, Vermont School Boards Association)]: I think any type of modeling is going to be based on certain assumptions, and you have to know what those assumptions are. And, if you are providing assumptions to the Joint Fiscal Office about the districts that are being modeled and they are providing you with the assumptions that they're making within that modeling, that's basically as good as you can get, probably. It's all it's project we understand that it's projections.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: Right. As

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I think about moving to newer, larger districts, see it moving from 119 districts to 27 as a significant change, or even just cutting the number of central offices in half as a significant change. I personally see it as one that reflects an evolving state and an evolving state of education. Uh-oh, I've lost my train of thought. And I'm gonna stop because I've lost it, because I was trying to introduce my question too long. I

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: think one thing that I would say is that there is this belief that by doing this, we're going to bring taxes down, and that is sort of what is hanging out there. What I'm asking you and begging you is that don't put school boards to fail again, right? Because this redistricting along with the investment in, not just the investment, addressing the cost, the healthcare, all of the things that you've been hearing, it's not going to help us. We know that if we're not going to invest enough in first instruction, we keep saying special education is a cost driver, what we are not doing is investing enough in first instruction so that we don't have to address as much special occasion, right? So, we know that we need facilities, right? We need the money. So, when I talk about cost analysis, I'm not necessarily the finances of the district, how much are they spending in paper or how much they're spending. No, it's just the big picture, right? Facility, Like you know, we are lucky in our district, we have a great capital plan, we plan on that really well, we have our assets, if we consolidate with Montpelier, we would be having to address a lot of facilities' needs, right? Where would that money come? And then the transition, like I was saying, I can't address enough the transition. So, there's a lot of those are the costs that I think we're trying to address. There's a lot of costs in transitioning into bringing two systems together, but what we can't forget while doing this, if we're really thinking about improvements to outcomes, that it comes also with a cost. So, just be thoughtful, so I think the criteria, I don't think you have to meet every single piece of the criteria to the latter, but I think this criteria asks the right question, so what you should be asking for in order to have a plan that it was put in with a lot of thought, so that it also made, so our board meeting yesterday, instead of being upset to each other, we were able to evaluate the criteria, be non biased, right? We are examining within the criteria that we all agree to, so even if there's disagreement, at the end we have consensus, right? And that's all we're asking. Is that better? Yeah, know.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You also reminded me of my question, and you answered it.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: It's better.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: It's really to say, as I think about doing this, moving to larger districts solves for many things, But one thing it doesn't solve for is making the job of a school board any easier. And so, I think construction aid is one of those things that would make the job of the school board easier. And as you say, recognize that a transition takes investment first. And I appreciate that as well. I guess I would say anything else that you'd like to add to that? Because as we talk about money and all of this, it's often about the operation and governance of the school system, but we don't talk a lot about what the school boards have to deal with. There's a lot that you already have to deal with in the world of declining enrollment and increased student need and all of that. So I just would want to ask you to

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: I think that we can't forget all of the educational outcomes that we want, and I think school boards monitor education outcomes, we forget that we're trying to have multilayer system of course done well to Fidelity, right? So that includes even instructional coaches. Don't know how much into detail we're going here, but when we do our four parameters, for example, for what we want in our budget, we have as board members things, because we operate as a whole, not the chair dictates, we are very thoughtful, like please do not underfund teacher professional development, right? Because we know that first instruction is what is going to help our kids. And I know that I'm getting to the details which you do, but what I'm trying to get at is we need to be thoughtful of how we are gonna We have to wait until the pandemic to have federal money, and I know that you guys, your pockets are small too, but those are the things that keep me awake. I know it's not a secret, our plan didn't happen, how we were going to try to have a budget, not in five schools, but in three, I'm trying to be thoughtful of how I say this, so that my email is not as bad. We were being really thoughtful, and we asked all the right questions, I think we asked them to try to over communicate, try to do all of this, and it was still hard to do, but now I'm like, I know that we're not going be able to hire this counselor that we really wanted so that we could address some of the first instruction, and this counselor was going to do just functional skills for our kids, and I know that that sounds little, it's huge, you know what I mean? And so those are the things that I want you to have in the back of your mind. Those are things that keep me awake. How do we better serve our students? How do we have more teachers that are addressing the kids that have the higher needs? How do we address our historic economics? How do we invest in community schools? I think that that is a great investment that helps with the roses. We enroll families, not just children, and our families are

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I want to clarify, when you say community schools came up capital C, capital S. Specific, is it?

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: Yes, capital. Yeah, it's a strategy, right? It's not a program, it's a strategy of how we there's a few grants about that. We're all competing for six grants. I don't have to say that for today, but last time I was here, we had 20 homeless students. Those are the things that, and not always board members, we are aware of that, but those are the things that keep us awake. How do we make sure that we're removing barriers so our students are able to learn? And that seems not completely with the map right now, but it is part of what we're doing. Those are the economics that I'm talking about. We need an investment, and it might not all be addressed in Act 73, but you have other committees that are working in other things, and talk to each other. Sorry, I'm talking too much.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: It's fascinating because you and your board are sort of living the reality of declining enrollment, community sentiment, and all of that, and trying to make that all work at once and showing just how challenging it can be. So happy to hear from that. Would just say since you brought up the sort of combination of Montpelier and Washington Central, and I don't want to debate lines or all that, but I do want to just say once again that governance is not building consolidation, but governance could be strategically looking at facilities in a way that could save a lot of people a lot of money.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: Absolutely, absolutely. And we want to have that conversation. So you know, there's a study, I think I have forwarded it to you guys before, but I'm happy to forward it. We did a combined study, and that really shows, I shared that with Secretary Sanders, that really shows how our articles of agreement are different. All of the steps that you would have, it's not that simple to come together, and that's what I'm talking about. So we spent a little money, we spent $5,000 in hiring a consultant to help us put all of that together, so it was impartial, but to move forward, we would need to

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So, I would just say, you're right. It is not that simple to come together voluntarily. Yes. And I realize that there is a certain amount of simplicity in state mandate, And I think that that's one of the things we're wrestling with. I personally believe Act 46 is a proven concept. I've watched it work in all of the districts that I'm surrounded by. I suspect you would say the same. And so therefore, I think that greater thoughtful consolidation works, but relying on busy superintendents, volunteer school boards to try to find the time and the resources to make that happen, impedes progress to address a declining enrollment and cost crisis that is way outpacing our ability to deal with it.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: I think what I would say to that is that if we have enough carrots and accountability, there's ways to do it, and I'm not going to give my opinion one way or another about F-forty six, I think that this is where we are right now, we need to move forward. Like we said with Suhir, your map, it's a thoughtful way to start the conversation, and then I will go back to my lab, I'm not gonna recite all of the things that I've said.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: No, that's why I really appreciate the feedback, and I think you're absolutely right about, and that's why I brought up the question of, you know, I worry that we're not taking care of school boards enough as we think about this, and what do they need to take the tool of consolidation and turn it into something that's better for kids? Representative Brady?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: So if some school consolidation might be necessary, it might increase opportunity. There's the sort of new maps, create bigger districts that make governance part of it perhaps easier. It doesn't make the building part of it necessarily easier. Or there's our current system and the way you're doing it with a consultant. And maybe you've already given us this in testimony, but what are some of the middle ground steps, like things, ways that the carrots, the ways that we if we don't go to mandated bigger districts. But we do want to absolutely encourage the collaboration and consolidation and reconfiguration in the places where it's most logical. What other mechanisms, what laws do we need to change facilities funding? Yes, obviously. Beyond the facilities funding, what else can we do, should we do? And I think

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: we haven't had this conversation with Yeah, and I agree with agree that. I'm not speaking for the BSBA board, for my school board, I think when we were here before and we were talking about that facilities money, transition money, If we're going to not mandate or you're going to ask us to do efficiency studies, you could say, these districts, we could use the column up, these districts should do an efficiency study or whatever together, and then you start to create a transition plan. By two years from now, the efficiency study needs to be done, then you would have more data on the numbers, and this is the amount of if you do it, it's the amount of facilities that will be there for high school, careers, I don't know, I'm just dreaming here with you, and this is the amount of money, or this is the tax savings, which we did have some of that model through Act 46, right, or 01/1953 actually started with a saving, so this is how far back that act. So, you can look at some of the language, act was more about carrots, you do need the accountability, so we appreciate clarity and we also appreciate resources and we appreciate not operating in a system every year, like right now, you know, the stress about our budgets and the talk about, well, maybe let's cap it for next year, just knowing that our district could be capped at 2% next year, where do we find that money to cut student services? It's just not possible. I don't have all the answers. I would love to think more about that and get back to you. Representative Harple.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: Something I've been thinking about

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: is just one of the changes that I, or one of the challenges that I have been facing is as in this conversation with like, been like, well proposed to other maps, is that, I last night played around with the mapping tool and I really couldn't get that much farther than the corner of the state that I occupied because those are the schools and the communities that I know. And I could do the same thing of the same size to scale around the state, except that I just don't know their schools or their towns. And so I was thinking, actually, it would be really helpful if a representative from each of these districts was really guiding me in this. Or school boards, right, that's where I'm going with this. And so I guess that my question is, I attended online a school board meeting last night, which was really helpful to hear their thoughts, but they're not scheduled to meet for a month. And we need this work done faster than that. Like, how long would it take a school board to, if we said we are gonna accept a proposal or three proposals from each school board or whatever, like, is that something that could get back to us in two weeks?

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: I I don't know that they could come back with proposals. Right. But they didn't come, but we could, you know, we could ask ask them to give feedback them. That's what you would be looking for, for input into how would this affect them on the ground right now. For example, now we just gave you some feedback, we gave you some feedback, can sort of update.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: The thing I'm getting at is like, I feel like I need more than just input on something I give them. I need them to do it or someone from that reading to do it before I can even look at it. Because I don't even know what's off, does that make sense?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: It does, but somebody's gotta do the work at some point. Right now it's us. Right, well,

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: wanna remind us of the testimony of the Children's Association who were very clear that it was their job to draw that. So I just want to put that out there. Feedback on a map is much easier than drawing a map. So maybe that Yeah. Maybe we could get feedback. This isn't going to work for this region because such and such. Right.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: But if you did this and this, I'll let it sign up. We have not, as a committee, turned our attention to lines.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: And also which boards, I think, feel which way about SUs versus SDs because it's

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I'm getting plenty of feedback on that.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: But it's not consistent. That's what I'm saying. Some school boards do want the SDs, some do want the SUs. And so knowing which ones want which and why is it important to them.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: Just say, my experience with membership organizations, especially this one, it will be very apparent. It's I don't represent different VSBA map.

[Rep. Leanne Harple (Member)]: And it's important, I think, in making those maps to know, up here, they are really Okay with an SD. In fact, our superintendent's been saying it. Everyone's important. Right here, they're definitely not. So if we were going to do a hybrid model, this would be an SU, and

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: this would be an SD. That kind of information would be really helpful to me in posing something.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, I think that you could talk with the member organizations off line and say, Hey, is this data you could provide somehow or There's give a not a solution to trying to find out what everybody wants or doesn't want. All right. Well, I really appreciate you two both taking the time and helping us further in this anecdotal consideration. Really do. Thanks.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: Thank you, Tina. I'm sorry, we got one more.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: You sorry. You mentioned the study that you guys did, and I actually went to try to find it here. Couldn't find it immediately. If you don't mind just send

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: it right now. Can I me one minute?

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: And If you could send it to our committee assistant, we can it

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: will be reported to us.

[Rep. Emily Long (Member)]: I know I've seen it, need to review it again, and I couldn't find it immediately. So thank you.

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: And I can make Yeah. It as Thank you. Alright. We are off, and if

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: you look at the agenda, it's 01:30. One. It's now one. I'm sorry. It's one?

[Flor Diaz Smith (President, VSBA Board of Directors)]: The last time I looked it

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: was What do we have at one? What's that? Agenda planning. Oh, 01:15. We're