Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Welcome back to House Education on January 23. We just have some brief time between scheduled testimony to kind of continue our discussions here in the committee. And I think what I really want to do is just sort of maybe provide a bit of a weekend exercise, but as well as get some feedback today. So we have been, I think, getting some fairly clear, strong testimony from various groups. If we sort of take the most recent and do work backwards, yesterday we had the sort of very kind of official line of superintendent association. They're very clear about SUs and SDs. I think they are very clear that they would be willing to support research based state mandated redistricting. I think we've heard from anybody that school construction aid is a crucial part of any education transformation. So I think that we all need to think about all of those pieces. Think about your own conversations. The SBA also provided us with some testimony as well earlier, sort of there, they came in person, yes, they have, over there, over the pavilion, with their sort of list of criteria, what it would need to go forward. Even this morning, we had a pitch to say, essentially, rather than doing all the redistricting, just make everybody manage the money for the new foundation formula. So I guess, one, while we've got some time together, I'd be interested in some feedback. But more importantly, how do you feel we should take all of this and move forward? Or what do you see the recent testimony as providing us in terms of moving forward? You get it first.

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: See the outline of a concept of a map.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I'll just put my ideas on the table, I've had Ledge Council work up some language that is not a map, has I gotten that far? But there are sort of basic concepts that I'm starting to feel more and more focused and strong on. The SUSD thing is something I also support and would support any redistricting within that. I think that I would probably make somehow school construction that would be contingencies for new districts. But I don't know what the number is. I think we've got some pretty compelling testimony yesterday about the effectiveness of BOCES, thesis, whatever we want to call them, and that in some way, shape or form, that a statement probably should lean into it, it seems to me like a low cost, high reward potential system. And I think, I guess I, listening to the Superintendent's Association yesterday saying that they can support change, they realize change has to happen, and that they would like to see that change be research based, and even basically linking to the research about 2,000 to 4,000. I think as Representative Brady just said, for those of us who would like to put that on the table, that does provide a bit more of a concept of an outline of a map. I'm not going to talk anymore. Somebody else has to talk now. Chris?

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: Think it was a very good meeting. I appreciated the input, and I think it does help us maybe move the conversation along a little bit more knowing where they stand. It's full construction, absolutely. We need to still discuss it. Still not completely on board with it being a contingency on districts. Again, what comes first, the districts here that you know, that conversation. Doing the quick math on the 2,500 that they suggested could be, that's about 32 districts. That's a rate reduction from where we are now. Not sure if it's enough, but again, it'd be a starting point for this conversation as it's going to continue to go there, That's really kind of what I'm looking at. I want this conversation to continue going forward, even if everybody's not getting exactly what they want at that point, that's what the discussion is for, come up with collaboration and agreements regarding the discussion.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: Yeah, I'd to that. I think it's been pretty compelling with the professionals in the field and saying about moving forward, wanting to move forward. I think it would be silly not to create new districts and not require them to have the CSOs. It seems like a no brainer. I don't know how we work in school construction, but

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I think it's going to happen. I will admit I have not played with the mapping tool since last year. I'm actually gonna take it for a ride this weekend. Power is

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: a glove.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Power doesn't blow up. And I mean, we all should sort of apply our own sort of thoughts and criteria to come up with. I do kind

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: of have a question about CSOGs. Definitely in favor of

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: that kind of a program,

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: I just don't see the need for it in a larger district. Would it be a Seesaw that expands just that, that doesn't, that crosses district borders?

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: That's fine. Like I said, you see this as a function of the new district. That's a function that's going

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: to hurt anyone. So I think within the bigger districts, to me that's just another level that might not need to be there, and this is just me thinking out loud. I'm totally in favor of them, in, I mean, I was in favor of the BOCES,

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: but not for it.

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: So I just don't know how they're going to fit into this whole

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Bayharker conversation. So I share your thinking of what's the difference between scale through BOCES and scale through larger districts. I think if we were to land on 25 districts, that still, I think lends itself to a BOCES system. How prescriptive we get about it, I think is something we'd have to talk about and how do you take it from concept to reality.

[Rep. Leland Morgan (Member)]: I was going say talking a little bit about scale through BOCES versus scale through new larger districts. I think Representative Fulcrum had a couple of slides that were actually really good at sort of laying out the risks and benefits there.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And I also, we got the list and I don't play with it on the map, but we got the list of all of the member SDSUs in the Vermont Learning Collaborative. And I'm just curious to look at that on the map to see if that is also the size of the district in terms of student population, or is it servicing an area that is much bigger, which I think shows the potential of a BOCES serving multiple districts even in a world of larger districts.

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: And I'll just share my head students' park. We're one of the eight that they listed, and it's larger than some of the concepts. I mean, it's essentially and it's not the same as even the map that I think we saw come out of the redistricting task force. It doesn't align with the actual, but it's essentially Windsor Windsor County. It's put in your head. That's what it looks like. Yeah. No.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: Clarifying question. This goes back to the testimony earlier this morning. I think that I was thinking that the idea of the foundation formula was that that works really well when you have a larger district. Right?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I mean, like, was that

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: that was the whole life Yes.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So that is one of the things that are that's gonna be sort of difficult to maneuver is that the the foundation formula, the original numbers are based on today's spending. Way you bend the cost curve is to gain efficiencies of scale and then the future existence of the foundation formula as sort of calculated and to get the governor on board as well, since this was a much lower amount, needed to demonstrate that as we build scale, we also sort of bend the increases. Okay, so that's why I So they are tied together, absolutely. So we are Yeah, go ahead, please.

[Rep. Leland Morgan (Member)]: Sorry. I guess I just want to of put it out there for thinking some of the discussion we heard this morning about implementing a foundation formula and having those new districts sort of manage to the money, an opinion is based on what I know now, think that kind of survival of the fittest approach would be really concerning.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You mean doing nothing but implementing the foundation formula?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Precisely, yeah.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: The fact is that the foundation formula is a probably fairer and more equitable way of doing things. But just like everything else, it's going to end up with winners and losers. I think that if you don't also move to scale, that winning and losing is much more profound. Leland, anything you want to add?

[Rep. Leland Morgan (Member)]: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. These are really hard decisions, and I don't know what is the right decision. I know that a lot of people that reach out to me don't want the redistricting, so I don't even know what to say about that. Like, how should we redistric? And people are telling me, Don't wait. But I know that's also not helpful, because I know that's what we're doing. So I know what to suggest in order to do it. Does that make sense?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Well, does, just because when people have asked me questions, my response has generally been, I don't know, I don't know what to do. So I'm very much in agreement with you.

[Rep. Leland Morgan (Member)]: Right, it's like, I guess I feel like I'm being asked, how should we do what you don't want to do?

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Representative Quimby?

[Rep. Beth Quimby (Member)]: Yes, thank you. As we continue these discussions and mapping, and like I was a member of the task force this summer, I continue to have questions around SD versus SU. And I get the efficiency of SDs, but I look at my area and I have questions about how you're not an SU when we have these large deserts with no schools in them. So if you become a SD with an operating district, how far are kids going to have to go? So I just continue to wrestle with questions about whether we still need to have some SUs in this state for regions like that, to keep that in mind.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, great point. Probably refers directly to is how do we handle the need for the continued use of independent schools when we have school deserts. How do you have an SD with the full different group of delivery systems that we have? Josh, you're up.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrovich (Member)]: So I agree with Beth. I'm still on the I'd like to see a SDSU hybrid kind of model for the same reasons that Beth stated. Also, I'm not completely sold on the attachment of construction. I'm also not opposed. I just think I need quite a bit more conversation about what that looks like, how it's funded, and all of that moving forward. How we anticipate ways and means and appropriations will take care of that part of it to really get on board with that.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, there are other parties in these negotiations that could also be promoting the idea of meeting school construction aid, that being the administration.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrovich (Member)]: Right. So I'm just saying, I'm not opposed, I'm not there. I need more for that.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: Appreciate that.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: It's a policy decision for sure, and one we can definitely discuss further. Representative Brady?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: I wonder if Quimby and Dobrovich can just talk a little bit more about the need for SUs or an SUSD hybrid, because I think these might be hard conversations that we need to have. To me, if we are in agreement on that factor, I don't know how

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: we go

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: forward with any maps. And so I'm concerned, I guess, if there isn't agreement about the need in a future state to be all operating. I feel like we're pretty stuck at square one.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Before I turn to you, Beth, I would just respond to that saying there is no It's probably highly unlikely we're gonna get an ambulance put out of here anyway. So I think probably, if we can find a way to move forward together, great, but there are gonna be parts of this that are gonna prompt some people to vote no and some to vote yes, but we may not be all in agreement. Representative Quimby.

[Rep. Beth Quimby (Member)]: If I can unmute. Know, I think of my situation where I'm from. And I worked on the county map, for example, which is one we disregarded, making every county a school district or a supervisory district. Where I'm from in Concord, the closest high school is Canaan on the New Hampshire border, as opposed to there are public and independent schools like Danville, which is public or St. Jay Academy or Ally, which were independent. So, it's not an independent public issue. It's just a school that's ten minutes away. So, are you going to put kids on a bus for an hour and a half to get to the closest high school within that county or allowed tuition in ten minutes away. So, in the Northeast Kingdom, have a whole kingdom choice district. There are zero schools in that entire district. There's nowhere for the kids to go to school, public or private without tuitioning out. So, and again, I just need to know more about this. I'm not saying I'm opposed to having all supervisory districts in a state. If you can make it work in a way that's good for kids, But I know there are places, especially where I live in the Northeast Kingdom, where it just doesn't exist. There aren't, isn't a school for them to go to, unless you allow them to tuition close by across the border. And some go to New Hampshire. The closest school happens to be across the river, five minutes away, as opposed to an hour away within it. So, I just need to say, I'm not saying, yep, we got to go all SDs. There's no room for tuitioning either to independent or public schools. So that's not off the table for me at this point, unless I can be shown that there's a way to do all SDs that is not harmful to children and families in Vermont.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Thanks, Beth. I'll put some language on the table next week that we can discuss. I think that maybe we can have sort of some baseline sort of agreements here, I suspect, such as we could just agree on the importance of school construction aid and move to the future. But I would also say, can we come to an agreement that there are parts of this state where school districts are going to have to avail themselves of the services of an independent school in order to educate their children because of distances.

[Rep. Chris Taylor (Vice Chair)]: See

[Rep. Leland Morgan (Member)]: three. Yes. Well, I mean, isn't that already sort of what would be the case for kids in the Lennonville and St. Jay area? Like, that is the public's will to be going to stay the public.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And I'll tell you, we all agree that that's a reality that we're not going to change? It really becomes a question of how do they fit into the larger district? My concept would be, we can call it contracting, can call it designation, But if you have a school district, the board of that school district is responsible for educating those children, that if there isn't a reasonably accessible public school, then they should have the ability to contract with an independent school to provide that education for the students.

[Rep. Robert Hunter (Member)]: Now I would echo, rep Quimby's concerns as well because we're surrounded by nonoperating. And I would love to see

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: a world where we can make it all work. Beautiful kind of ways. Yeah. Josh, go ahead.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrovich (Member)]: So for me, it falls along the same lines as Rev Quimby and Hunter. You know, in my area in Orange, where I live, it's not, I mean, I have two high schools in my district, right? I don't have the needs that others do. The further out into Orange you get, the more of those tenants do rely on, you know, they're non operating, they have to rely on independent schools that have been serving our communities for a long time. And know there's either a real or perceived distaste for them in the public tuitioning world, and I don't know how we work through that with districts. I think it's possible through governance, if we're careful and mindful, but I've heard others say how it's not an option for them. So I think having SUs and SDs, how you bridge that gap between both models, and is it a tiered thing? Is it a I don't know. I don't know the right answer or way to describe it, but, you know, I do feel that there's a large portion of Vermont who prefers the way they are running now, while there's a large portion of Vermont that wants everything to be public. And I think we have to be mindful of both, not just one or the other. Great.

[Rep. Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So I went and had coffee this morning during the SBA coffee time in the Cedar Creek Room. And I think I made this comment yesterday, frankly, it was based on a conversation, over here about how if we go to larger districts, I'm not sure we're necessarily giving school boards any additional tools to do the hard work that they can or that they have to. And so to me, that's where construction needs to become a very important thing because it signals we know you have to make some hard decisions that probably involve school buildings. And we're making all a commitment to making that job a little easier. That's kind of why I feel pretty passionate about that. Alright, this is, we'll just call this food for thought for the weekend. Come back in Tuesday, refreshed, ready to dig in as best we can.