Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Herb Olson]: Alright. Head of your life.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Welcome to House Education, 01/22/2026. Starting today with a bill introduction, this would be H681. I'll wanna pull it up. We're gonna walk through it first with legislative counsel, and give you some time for clarifying questions, and then we'll hear from the bill sponsors. That sounds okay to everybody? What's that? Oh, you may have to find it on the bill finder then. Oh, okay. 681. 681. Okay, we'll turn it over to legislative council. Good morning.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Good morning. Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Council. I'll share my screen. So we're going to walk through H-six 81, as introduced, an act relating to voter approval prior to school closure. So the bill starts with section one, which adds a section to the school board's chapter in title 16, section five sixty four, titled school closure. And it reads, Before closing a school that operates grades pre kindergarten through grade 12 or any subset of such grades or before closing or relocating one or more individual grades, a school district shall obtain the affirmative vote of the town in which the school or grades facing closure are located. Subsection B on page two reads, As used in this section, school board and school district have the same meanings as in subdivisions 11A9 and 10 of this title. Section 11 is your master definition section for all of Title 16. So essentially, these terms don't have any special meaning in this particular section. And subsection C reads, The provisions of this section shall supersede any educational charter provision or school district articles of agreement to the contrary. So if there is, and there are at least, I believe, two school districts that still operate on charters, but if there are any charters that are still out there or articles of agreement, which is what the vast majority of school districts are governed by, have any provisions that conflict with this language in subsection A, this language is going to automatically supersede it without any further action. Section II amends Section five sixty three. We're in the same spot in Title XVI, the school boards chapter. This is the powers of school boards, and current law gives school boards the power to relocate or discontinue use of a schoolhouse or facility subject to and under current law, the provisions of eight twenty one and eight twenty two, which are the requirements in Chapter 21 in Title 16 that a school district operate a school or pay tuition. Eight twenty one is elementary school, eight twenty two is high school. And so we're adding section five sixty four that we just created in section one, saying this power is subject to the provisions of five sixty four related to obtaining the affirmative vote of the town in which the school is located that is facing closure. Same for powers of electorate. Section three amends Section five sixty two, which is the powers of the electorate. Current law gives the electorate the power to authorize the school board to enter into leases of real property for more than three years, to purchase buildings or sites for school purposes, to locate and erect school houses, and to sell or otherwise dispose of school houses or sites for the same. And then we're just saying that that power is subject to the provisions of section five sixty four that we created in section one. And then the bill would be effective on 07/01/2026.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Thank you very much. Clarifying questions from the committee on this. I'll ask one just to make sure I understand. So if a district board in a district that has multiple elementary schools decides that it no longer has enough pre K students at one school and wants to move those pre K students to another school where you might go from three to eight and have a sufficient amount that is moving a a grade level from one school building to another, that would require a build up the town?

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Under this language, I'd say yes.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: And this, just to clarify again, this would supersede articles of agreement? Correct. The community said both of them. Correct. Thank you. All right, any other questions from the committee for legislative council before we hear from the sponsors? Seeing none, thank you very much. Of course. Gentlemen, come join us. Come right up front. There's two chairs. Oh, okay. Traffic.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: Nice traffic.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Chair, so.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: I'll make sure I can get out of it without a lot of help. Thank you, thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Thanks for meeting our schedule, appreciate it. Committee, yes.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: I'm going first only because I need to get back to my committee and Herb's gonna give you far more details. Thank you. Thank you for considering this and reviewing it. For the record, my name is Dave Yacovone. I represent the Lemoyle, Washington District. That includes a portion of the community of Stowe, Morristown, Elmore with its one room school, Worcester with its school of with approximately 65 students, and Woodbury with roughly 70 plus or minus students. So three of the towns of my five have schools with less than a 100 students. For for some time, communities have said, Dave, we we know these are hard decisions. We hope you'll help us so that we can at least have a voice in this. And I said that that makes great sense to me. I I I believe it as I'm as you may also, I believe strongly in the consent of the governed. Sprinkled throughout our Vermont constitution is a very important notion that those who are governed should have a say as much as possible. In my communities, the very emotional issue for them, obviously, if they worry about these things. I worry that if decisions are made without their having a voice, the residual atmosphere and relations could easily be toxic. The anger that would exist would not be healthy to children. Sure in time, they would overcome things, I would hope. But there's such a community school spirit helping their schools, people volunteering in just a number of different, really remarkable ways that builds the essence of these little communities that I worry that they wouldn't It would be very difficult for them to manifest that same kind of support to whatever school configuration existed. They've all but said that, and they're all good people. Herb can speak much more to the ramifications that I'm sure you're aware of when a small school leaves a community. And so my point really was to just speak about trying to ask you folks to consider in this process the consent of the governed and to what degree that matters.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Thank you, mister chair. Thank you, committee. Can I just you mentioned the consent of the governed a couple times? This bill would supersede articles of agreement, which to me are one of the ultimate forms of the consent of the governed without the consent of the governed. Just could you perhaps help me understand that contradiction? You mean in

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: a in a district where districts are voting?

[Chair Peter Conlon]: So we have we continue to have some districts where articles of agreement do not call for a town vote for the closing of a school. This bill would supersede those articles of agreement that were developed locally and were voted on locally.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: And you see that as an inconsistency?

[Chair Peter Conlon]: With the consent of with with your advocacy for the consent of the government.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: Yes. I think government that's closest to the people, I do believe, is is the best. If there's a taking, and the district says, we think it's best to take away a community asset for the whole, whatever the size of that district is, without permission of the people who, where that school resides, I believe is in violation of a very important tenant of consent of the governor. Though I appreciate the point you're making.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: I think one that Rob, let me We'll defer to Herb, let you have your presentation and just for some other questions. So, Herb, you have the floor? And thank you for your work down there in appropriations. Thank you. You probably understand you need to get back to it.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: Yes, appreciate that. You bet.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Have a good day.

[Rep. Herb Olson]: You too. As well. Thank you. Floor is yours. Thank you. For the record, my representative Herb Olson, Addison Ford, it's been going in the Northeast Corner of Addison County, Bristol, Lincoln, Moncton, and Starksboro, four pretty small towns, kind of some of them really up in the hills. We're a member of a supervisory district that was merged right after Act 46. And so, I'm coming from that kind of community where people really do feel pretty strongly about their school, their local school. And I think I sponsored this bill together with representative Harple and representative Giacobrovich, because I I I thought it was really important because community schools, this is you know, when you close a school like this, it's really an existential kind of moment for both the students, the parents, and the community. These are institutions that are critical, you know, to the community. A lot of communities, I think, are gonna be devastated if their school is closed without, unless there's some real acknowledgment around what's going on and recognizing, you know, the merits and perhaps the merits, you know, of the particular school involved. And and just picking up a little bit on what representative Jana Brown was saying, we need trust in our government more than ever right now, but international stuff. Really need that trust and to maintain that trust for our sense of government, as well as for the future of education, think, going through a lot of different changes or potential changes, transformations, and throughout that whole process, I think it's really important to maintain that trust. And I think that gets to meaningful voice before a school is closed. I think that citizens need to have an understanding that they've been listened to, that decisions make some sense, and that decision makers are acting within an accountable kind of framework. Let me be clear, you know, not all community schools should stay open, but I would also say that not We have to be careful about choosing and closing community schools, because some of them can be doing a really good job. So before you think about closing a school list, I think there's a bunch of factors that should be considered. What is the value of that particular school to students and parents? What's the data say around social emotional learning, proficiencies, that kind of stuff? Is the school where folks are proposing to move those students gonna do a better job? You know? And and I think those things need to be accounted for. How about lower income and other marginalized students? I've read research. I think it's available. I got it on the way. I figured I had I had a link articles to testimony, so I I got that on what's on the website. But I think there's some good research to suggest that when I keep smaller community schools closed and move to a bigger school, that particularly some marginalized students are gonna shut up. Is it financially viable? And we're dealing in a situation where our expenses and taxes are are really high, so it's a natural kind of thing to think about, well, how can we save some money? Maybe close one of the rural schools. But I think we need to make sure we get a real clear eyed look at that and exactly what's going on. And also sort of think about what are the costs and benefits. You might be able to save something from closing the school. Is that gonna is that something that should outweigh, you know, the benefit of that school to to the students? I think that's important. Cost savings are are critical. My own feeling is that expenses need to be constrained to keep property taxes reasonable or maybe return them as being reasonable. I personally think that our districts need to collaborate or join, however you wanna put it, into arrangements where they can save money on a regional basis. I personally like the idea of cooperative education service areas, but I appreciate there are other ways to try to do that. I also like the idea of a regional high school. That might be a little further in the future, but I think it's a really good model, both for improving education. That includes, integrates CTE, by the way. You know, I'm thinking of our, my county, Addison County, and we got three high schools, and we got a CTE down at Middlebury. I really it seems to make a lot of sense, both educationally, and I think there could be good savings that could accrue to that kind of a that kind of a so the key for me is an accountable process to show the communities that there's a meaningful voice, and what's appropriate accountability when a community school is closed. The current statute, as was described by, well, that was laid out in the bill, in my mind, just no the school board's given a decision about whether to close the school, take a grade or two grades or whatever and move somewhere else. And I think that's worked fine in the past, but in this environment where there's potential for a lot of change, a lot of transformation, and maybe more schools closing, I worry that there aren't the kind of standards and process in that existing law. And you may end up with a situation where a board could close a school really for any reason, no reason at all. And I think we need to think about that if that's the right kind of public policy we have on these types of important issues. Accountability can also come, I think, from an administrative process. It's where you lay out the standards, lay out the process.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Before we go into your bill doesn't speak to any of that processes. It just speaks to a town vote.

[Rep. Herb Olson]: I'm talking about accountability in general. I just I just I don't So

[Chair Peter Conlon]: go ahead. I just wanna keep us sort of focused on the bill in front of us.

[Rep. Herb Olson]: Sure. But I think the key in all of this is accountability. And, just with the bill before you has a different mechanism around accountability. But I'm just saying that there are more than one way to do this. That's for you folks to decide how to make this accountable. And I'm just saying that there are other alternatives that that the the accountability mechanism in this bill is a vote. And as described by legislative council, the bill provides that there needs to be a vote before a school is closed or before any particular segment. There's a lot of consideration around middle schools, for example, And a lot of a lot of school elementary schools have grades that go up to, you know, whatever. And I think there's a lot of time about moving some of that to another facility, because I think it would be better for the kids, and it might might be better for the kids. Point of this bill is that town should have a thought about that. If in fact, it's better for those kids, middle school kids or whatever, or the whole school to close, I I trust I trust the voters to make a good decision as long as they have some good information. Alright? And I think, you know, I think the lead up to a process for a probe really should focus on some of the issues that I was talking about before in terms of what are the elements of making that decision. So, I think that uncannable community process also needs to consider in in any democracy, I think you have issues around majority power and minority rights. It's you know, we have it at the national level in our form of government. We have we we deal with that, I think, at the state level too. And especially, I think comes up in multi town districts. And I mean, if they were all I trust folks to do the right thing, but I'm worried that some situations where you have a smaller school, smaller community, they only have a certain number of folks. They may get outvoted without really recognizing that there may be some value there as well. So I think it's important that you figure out some way to protect or at least acknowledge those minority rights when you go through a process of closing the school. That's it. Thanks for listening.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: And I'm happy to answer any questions at all. You got a tough task ahead of you, and I appreciate your work. I don't think you meant to imply that school boards that are going through this process aren't doing what they can to make their case and be accountable to people when they go out there and taking many of the things that you listed into account. I just wanna make make clear, having been through the process and having watched many other places go through this,

[Rep. Herb Olson]: that that does happen. Sure. I I understand. I understand. This is trying to create a framework. I mean, I think with education transformation where it's we don't know, you know, how that's gonna happen.

[Rep. Dave Yacovone]: But I

[Rep. Herb Olson]: certainly think that there is at least possibility that there are gonna be bigger districts, some fashion or another. And I think that the the possibility of more schools closing, I think, is real or at least people are very concerned about that. But no, I'm I'm not implying, you know, that anyone's doing anything wrong. It's just that I think when you talk about trying to create a process, good do good in public policy, I think you need to acknowledge how the community is gonna react to that sort of stuff. Because it's all about how do you make a good decision for your kids. And I think that this type of process would help, not hurt making good decisions. Just some technical questions. The big one

[Chair Peter Conlon]: isn't just about closing schools. It's about even moving grades So again, I will ask, if you have a pre K in a small school that's down to two or three kids, and the district can't really justify having that program continue without combining it with another program. And perhaps what happens if they want to move the pre K of three kids into another nearby school for the pre K of five kids to create a legitimate base of kids to justify a full time teacher, and Well, the town says

[Rep. Herb Olson]: I think the board and the district has a really good case to the voters that that's in the best interest of of those students and and the community. So I think that's kind of a slant down. It it it's it's about but my question was, what

[Chair Peter Conlon]: if the town says no?

[Rep. Herb Olson]: I don't think they will. Okay? I think I trust the voters to make a good decision, provided they provided provided they're given good information about the consequences of that decision. And I think that if in that type of scenario, Mr. Chair, I think that it would be pretty easy to make that case to the voters. Were in one of the towns in my district, there was a few years ago, folks in this, you know, wanted to close a school. And people thought it's good school. And so they were not happy. They thought that the evidence was pretty clear that they were providing a good opportunity for their students. The district didn't feel that way. And we had a town debate about the whole thing. And many people stood up and said, Listen, if we ever get to the point where our numbers are low, if there's some other factor that is showing that it's not doing a good job in our local school, we will be the first to stand up and say, this school should close. So I trust the voters when they are given the opportunity to debate an issue with good information that they don't make a good decision. Another technical question. This says that the folks of the town where the school is located shall have that vote. Yes.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: But you are a fan of regional high schools. Yeah. So I would say, in your own situation, if Mount A were to close in order for the kids to go to a regional high school under this, but only Bristol, votes on whether Mount A stays open or closed.

[Rep. Herb Olson]: That's a good point. I haven't really thought all that through that point through. I confess I've been talking, thinking mostly about elementary schools, because I think those are the ones that are more into the gun, if you will. It's a good point, Mr. Chair, and I'm sure we can find a solution that makes sense for that, because I do strongly support the notion of a regional high school. I think it's not always, but it might be really better for kids. I really like the idea of integrating CTE into some type of structure like that. So I'd love to think about how to make that work.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Erin Brady?

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: I have a technical question, and it might sort of be for Beth, and then also, I think kind of a just philosophy policy decision at this moment, but on the technical side, so would this supersede whatever exists anywhere in the state right now in a school district that does not have articles of agreement that allow, that call for a town vote, the board and the administration make the decisions they think are educationally and financially sound. And they move Essex Westford Middle School to the Westford seventh and eighth grade to Essex. They close in Essex Elementary. They close Underhill Elementary. Would this change that? And in all of those cases, that was without any town votes on those decisions. Would those now also require we heard yesterday Burlington is contemplating closing one of their elementaries, consolidating because of demographic realities. So would this change in that? But Burlington wouldn't have a vote on that because they are a school district that does not have those kind of articles of agreement. Would this actually supersede that?

[Rep. Herb Olson]: You're asking Beth? Well, I

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: don't know, either one of you. I'm kind of looking at her because I'm guessing Beth.

[Rep. Herb Olson]: But Beth, I'll defer to Beth.

[Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Beth St. James, Office of Legislative Counsel. This language supersedes governing documents, so educational charters or articles of agreement to the contrary. But if there is nothing to the contrary, then this is the law that would have to be followed. I will say the way this is written is it doesn't specify, so school district encompasses all types of school districts. So it would include a union school district as well as a town or city school district. So in the case of Burlington, I read this as having a vote in Burlington on whether or not to close the school without modification to the definition of which types of school districts are included here.

[Rep. Herb Olson]: And that was my sense as well. And listen, I'm not suggesting that this bill has all the answers to a lot of these questions. I trust you folks to take a look at some of those issues and make appropriate tweaks if this is something that you're interested in taking up.

[Rep. Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: I think my second question, I think, I guess it is the trust question. It's a little bit like the chair asked, but does this sort of undermine any trust in education professionals and administrators and school boards who are making decisions based on educational factors, as well as fiscal factors as they have to write the budgets that we have to pay for. So does it sort of undermine any trust in them and say, well, we'll let the educational experts make their recommendation, but it would be better if everybody decided based on their own opinions and feelings rather than those who are tasked with managing the system. Theoretically, hopefully, the board has hired well, are administrators that you trust and respect and are certainly licensed and credentialed as such?

[Rep. Herb Olson]: I would hope that boards would feel that way. My experience with boards is that they're very conscious of the fact that they are, in a sense, trustees for the ownership. And the ownership or the folks in that particular district, and that they would take seriously, you know, trying to develop the information and analysis that would help ownership, I guess, make a good decision. And I think that can be done. I really do. I'm I'm familiar with some situations where a school is closed, and it's been done without a vote or whatever. And the board has been able to go out and talk to the community about whether that's a viable school, educationally or financially, and ended up with good result. So I hope they wouldn't feel that way. Those are in areas without a town vote. I think in that case, it was without a town vote. But I was trying to get to the issue around school boys who really can do a very good job in terms of relating to the community and making a good decision. Totally agree. This is trying to set up a general framework in state public policy about how to deal with some of these issues to cover all the circumstances, and hopefully end up with those good decisions that are accountable to the voters.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Before we run out of time, Representative Harple, don't know if you wanted to add anything.

[Rep. Leanne Harple]: Yeah, I can. Can I say bear or do you need me?

[Chair Peter Conlon]: You say right, booedonia.

[Rep. Leanne Harple]: Okay, all right, you. I think that this has been a really good discussion and you do raise some good questions. The question that I particularly think is worth examining more is a regional high school that serves more than one town and how that would be voted on. Your example of his high school, perhaps there would be a carve out or something for that. But I think that ultimately this bill comes down to trusting the voters and the people that live in that town. And I think that Representative Olson's response was really good to your question of what would happen if the town voted to keep three pre K students in when they could actually join class. I don't think that would happen. I think that this is much more about really placing trust back in small towns to know what is best for them after generations and generations of keeping that town alive. And we shouldn't assume people will make bad decisions. They just want to be part of those decisions. And that local voice and that local control is a huge part of who Vermont is. I've seen this play out in Hardwick and Greensboro a couple of years ago. It was really bad for the towns. The town of Hardwick had a lot of local people who wanted to shut down the Greensboro School because they're in the same district. In the end, that's not what ended up happening, although the structure of that school significantly changed. To just be some pre K now, that was really hard on people to feel like everyone outside their town was getting to make a decision for their town. And that's something that we always knew could happen when Act 46 started playing out. I feel as a representative of the small town that I was elected to represent the voice of these towns, that they're saying that they wanna hang on with their schools. I think that I am obligated to listen to them. I think we have an obligation as a government to listen to what our towns want. I think that a good point was made too about the toxic relationships and sort of the top down authoritarian style of government that is not the Vermont way when we're making these decisions without local input. And that community schools is something that we seem to have committed to investing in, but they're really dependent on those schools being in those communities. This is about preserving the future of our towns and strengthening generational roots. And when the government makes those decisions, especially a bigger government, that it won't necessarily be affected, that seems to a lot of people like overreach. It's almost always a bigger fish trying to eat a smaller fish. I just wonder where does that end, right? Like if someday, I mean, this is ridiculous. I'm not really sure that we would ever get this far, but theoretically, Burlington could say, we're all one state now. If that one district passed, we wanna shut down all the schools and bus, everyone to Burlington. I don't think that would've happened, that's not why I'm saying it, but I want you to understand that's what it would feel like. And it's the bigger towns that don't have to feel that way. They're always doing that to the little towns. I I wanna stand up for the inequity that's there. I think that we know that kids being raised as close to their own communities at the youngest ages is what is best for them, and then they expand the world over time. When When we first started talking about ACT 73, it seemed like we were saying it was largely focused on middle and high schools and not elementary schools. But as we really get into it, I feel like that trust is really slipping and so we wanna put in place those things that are gonna let those towns try and have a surviving chance. I think people on the inside are most likely to recognize the value of their own small schools in ways that people on the outside can't. And so I guess that that is what all of this is about for me, is really putting the trust in our voters to try and keep their small towns alive. Because that really is to me what Vermont is. I represent small town communities. And I hear your concerns. I hear everything you're saying. And I think this bill is probably not finished if we were to pass it. Tweak it. But that's sort of my reasoning with getting on board.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Thank you very much. Okay, everybody. Thank you very much, Representative Wilson,

[Rep. Herb Olson]: taking Thank for the time, hearing me and for probably more. I just probably said too much. Thanks for hearing me, Greg. Alright. Alright. Committee, I'm gonna say

[Chair Peter Conlon]: let's be back in our seats at ten.