Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Okay, welcome back to House Education Wednesday, 01/14/2026. For this segment, we've invited in folks from the Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation to talk about the status of PCB testing today. This is sort of a prelude to tomorrow's testimony from folks in the field who are wrestling with this, and we will likely have our witnesses back to talk more in detail about the specifics of H five forty two or where we wanna go with that. But for the time being, this is more just to catch us up as to where things are today. And Tricia, I'll turn it right over to you to introduce yourself and go ahead.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Hi, everyone. Tricia Coppolino, Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation. I'm the senior program manager for our contaminated sites program in the waste management and prevention division. And we are responsible for implementing the PCBs in Schools program in conjunction with the Department of Health and Agency of Education. My plan is to go over the program, so a brief refresher for everybody, and then go over current work that we're doing related to funding that was provided to us last legislative session. So starting with PCBs are they're human made contaminants that are included in building materials, capacitors, other electrical can't talk right now. PCBs are human made chemicals that were commonly used in building materials and electrical equipment built or manufactured before 1980. Los Angeles is the sole company that created these PCBs. The United States Environmental Protection Agency banned them in 1979. PCBs can cause serious health problems. Potential for health effects from PCBs, as with other chemicals, depends on the amount of time you're exposed to them and the concentrations at which you are exposed to. The PCBs can cause, effects to, nervous, immune, reproductive, and endocrine, systems. PCBs are also classified as human carcinogens. This means that exposure to PCBs can cause cancer. High levels of PCBs in indoor air of schools represent the biggest exposure to PCBs for students and staff. So there are multiple ways that people can be exposed to PCBs. Breathing PCBs in indoor air in schools is the largest exposure to people right now that we can see. PCB levels in the indoor air of schools should be kept as low as reasonably possible.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Can I just challenge your statements? Please. Somebody lives in an apartment building that has much, much higher levels of PCBs than their school? Isn't that actually the highest level exposure they're going to get than in school?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: It could be if there's PCBs in their apartment building. I mean, if there's no PCBs in the school, then that's not going to be their highest exposure either. So the information that we've seen and has been provided to us basically shows that in areas where PCBs exist, in your diet, in ambient air, and in other locations, those concentrations that exist are highest in schools.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: But we don't test ambient air anywhere but schools.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Well, we have ambient air testing in a lot of other places. When we created our background standard for indoor air, when we were looking at all of the different ways that we can be exposed to PCBs and all of the different ways that PCBs could impact what we're seeing in a school, We looked at a lot of studies from places, mostly in Europe, is where they're sharing them, in places that are considered to be uncontaminated. So there's some background PCB exposure everywhere because we use PCBs a lot. Monsanto manufacture a lot of PCBs. I don't think it's an unfair statement to say PCBs exist in every corner of this round earth. You can find them somewhere. We can look at places that were built after 1980 should not have PCBs in them and look at what those concentrations are. There has been some work looking at other buildings that were built before 1980, there's not a lot of PCBs that we see in housing or apartment buildings. So we're basing that statement on all of the data that exists currently to us.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: PCBs, they don't break down readily. There's something that lasts like whatever other things that pass along.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: And they bioaccumulate. Yes. You're welcome. I think to go off of my written notes right now, I think the thing that's the hard thing to understand is that we'll use a school because that's what we're talking about. A school can do a small amount of work to do a renovation in their building, so maybe they get new windows and they take out the caulking that had the PCBs in it, but the PCBs themselves are, say, a magnificent chemical because of the way they can just migrate in the atmosphere and then contaminate something else. When you look at

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: She described it as a magnificent chemical?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: It's a magnificent chemical. It does horrible things, but the chemical itself, I mean, the way it was manufactured I am a chemist, it's a magnificent chemical when you look at all of its features, but the outcomes of it are not great for the humans or the environment. That is the downside of PCBs. They could do great things, but they cause worse things when they're So the PCBs themselves, they exist for a long time, which is why we're still seeing them at such high concentrations, even for some schools that have gone through major or minor renovations, they still exist in building materials at the school that they continue to omit and then absorb into a different building material, and then re admit and absorb into a different building material. They're really difficult to manage environmentally, but like I said, the risk of them to the human population is cancer from them. It does go to, again, the concentration and time of exposure. Some people, you know, may have be really sensitive and have health outcomes with smaller amounts and less exposure than the same people that sat in the same classroom with them as other people. You know, it may take a while and higher concentrations before you actually see a health outcome.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: But we are going to litigate the science here, as we're not qualified, you're qualified, we are not.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: But there are multiple studies that show that impacts from PCBs do cause cancer. And I hear you questioning just how the science works in determining what that concentration is because it is different for each person. And so when the health department looks at this, they look at trying to create a circumstance where they're trying to address risk for the person who is most susceptible to the impact. Schools renovated or built before 1980 have high likelihood of PCBs being present in the building materials and the indoor air. So that is the true statement. In August 2020, this is how the program started. So Browns in high school had PCB impacts that were identified and we started looking into PCBs in the rest of our schools in Vermont. So in 2021, we had Act 74, which required all public and approved and recognized independent schools built or renovated for 1980 to test their indoor air. That initially was supposed to be done by 07/01/2024. It was extended to 2025, and now it's extended to 2027 to have all this work completed. Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation has the authority to require schools to address releases of PCBs to indoor air and reduce concentrations to health protective levels established by the Vermont Department of Health. Under Act 178, dollars 13,500,000.0 was set aside for funding to investigate, do testing, assessment, remediation of schools. And $16,000,000 was set aside for burns in high school to dispose of PCBs. So I will state that I don't think there is any question that PCBs are toxic chemicals. There's no question it's time consuming and costly for the state and the schools to do this work, but the science and the chemicals are clear. PCBs pose long lasting health risks to students and staff. The work under the sampling program helps to ensure PCBs can be reduced and removed in Vermont schools. So I'll get to where we are now. The funding that we received was $9,500,000 to move forward and help six priority schools. We have not been conducting any additional testing at schools or cleanup at other schools outside of these six schools. I can go into later several schools that are continuing to do work on their own. They are either in the process of a renovation or they're consolidating and they're trying to do work. Several schools are closing but being repurposed for other uses and are coming through our Brownfields program. And so we're working on those schools through that process. In every instance, they're still looking for PCBs in their schools and doing it voluntarily to remove them as part of their redevelopment process. Twenty twenty five-twenty twenty six, these are the numbers and what we're doing. There are three twenty eight schools in Vermont that we know of that were built or renovated before 1980. 183 schools have had inventories. So that's 56%. 157 schools have been sampled. So the first number was we did the inventory, but we didn't get to all the schools to do the sampling. So that's why there's 157 schools that have been sampled. 46 schools have PCBs detected above the school action level for that school. 145 still moving forward. To continue the process, 145 schools still need to have an, inventory and 171 schools still need to have indoor air sampling. The six schools that we're working on I'm

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: gonna just sit here real quick, so it's just about budget. So is it fair to say that of the 13,000,000 that was set aside, 13.5, that's gone, hence last year's request for the 9,500,000.0 that was transferred from a different fund. And that's kind of what we're talking about now with the 6 schools.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: So the six schools that were chosen were chosen because they had immediate action level indoor air concentrations, which are three times the school action level. There were some limiting use happening in that school, either the space couldn't be used or they were using it at less time, you know, six hours instead of eight hours. So they were reducing the time they could use those spaces. So, Bellis Falls Union High School, Green Mountain Union High School, Hartford High School, North Country, Union High, SOAR Learning Center, Twin Valley Elementary School are the schools that we prioritize to use $9,500,000 towards. In the document I shared, I put in the costs that we've approved to date to do work at these schools and the work that we're doing.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And just to be clear for the committee, this doesn't include money previously spent on these schools. So for example, North Country Union High School says 1,100,000.0, the actual total is more like 9,000,000.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: I don't know if it's that much, but yes, there is a lot more million before this 1,000,000.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Have a question, where it says $3.28 schools, and then underneath it says 183

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: had inventories and 157 were sampled. What does it mean, inventories? Great question. So the process that we use is we will hire a consultant and they'll go out to the school and they will go into every room in the school and they will document what is in the school for construction. So, they have an HVAC system, a UniVent system? What type of paint do they have? What type of construction do they have? What do their windows look like? Have there been any renovations? They'll take all of that information and then they will group the rooms into specific groups. So they'll say, These 10 rooms here are all built the same. They all have the same paint. They all have the same windows. They all have the same heating ventilation systems. And they'll say, this is one group. And then eventually when we get to the sampling part of it, we basically say you need to collect 30% of a group. So if there's 10 rooms, we'd say you need to collect three samples within that group, and it should be representative of that group to let us know if there's PCBs there. Thank you. You're welcome. The only thing that I wanted to point out is at the bottom of the document, it says, not the document, but the summary of schools where we're spending the 9,500,000 on, it says there's $3,829,000 remaining. The intent is to take the remaining amount of money and put it towards Green Mountain Union High School to help with their corrective action plan implementation. They have been patiently waiting, and they are the school that is next in line for cleanup along with Bellis Walls and Twin Valley. The other schools are receiving planning documents. So they will get the corrective action alternatives document, which goes through all of the different options for cleanup, the costs associated with it, long term effectiveness, and any long term monitoring that might be associated. And then the actual document that is what we call a corrective action plan, which says this is how we're going to clean up the school and what the costs are. Both of those documents are shared publicly, but they're also documents that we work really closely with the school on and the school boards to help us make sure that we're selecting options that they want to

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: see happen at their school.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Clarify, ECAA? That's a Corrective Action Alternatives document. Okay, and CAP is Corrective Action Plan. Correct, thank you. Yes. The rest of the document is really going over some of the schools that are continuing to do work on their own. And as I explained earlier, when a school decides to conduct work on their own, we make sure that we still work with them. We send them an approval letter for all the work they're doing and letting them know that when and if we receive any funding, we will reimburse the costs for the work that they're doing. Several schools have gone through done some

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Are the schools that have been that have exceeded the school action level?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Some of them have and some of them have decided that they wanted to do the work because they were doing a planned renovation and they wanted to follow the process. They're reaching out to us in advance.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Okay, but in that case, it's not really voluntary. That just falls under a different set of regulations.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: It's voluntary because we're not paying for it. So I think under the statute, says state's going to pay for all of the work that needs to happen. It says state's going to

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: pay for all of the work that's going to happen under the school testing program, not under we're going do a renovation and it's required to be test.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Yes, for the renovation piece, it's still a school that's in line that has to go through the process and they're basically going in and doing the process in advance of their turn happening. It happens to align with the fact that they're doing a renovation, that they're doing all in advance of that and preparing.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I would put volunteer in quotations. Okay.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: I will put it in quotations. So I listed out the schools that are continuing to do work without state funding, paying for it right now. And then at the bottom, I also provided you some of the schools that are going through our Brownfields program. So those are schools that are being repurposed for other uses in their community. And in that process, a lot of the work is being funded with federal or state money through the Brownfields program. And I'm happy to answer any questions you have about a specific school or any other work that we're doing.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: If we were to have any of these six schools in front of us, would they say, yes, we are being reimbursed for all of the costs involved with having levels above the school action level?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: They would, yeah.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: With the exception of probably paying for the electricity that it costs to run all these fans.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Yes, so we were able to, for this last round of work or this current round of work that we're doing, entered into grant agreements with the school. So DEC is paying for everything now. The process is the consultant submits work plan cost estimate to us. We approve it, and then the school submits for reimbursement from us. So as far as I know, we are reimbursing them for all of the costs that are associated with PCEs.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And so that'd be a very interesting point. We did the 13,500,000.0 that had to run through the AOE. This is now directly through you since it's your money. AOE is kind of out of it, I guess. Erin Brady? Oh, I was

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: just curious. Is it one consultant, like one firm that's doing all of them? Are there multiple that the state's working with? There's three, and we left it up to the schools to select the consultants. If they want to continue with the consultant that's been doing the work, they could. I know that Hartford put their school out to bid, but they ended up choosing the same consultant that was doing the work before. Are those Vermont firms, do you know? Are all Vermont firms, yep.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Express my regret for not having gotten into the charcoal filter business.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Just clarifying NFAP. It's a new acronym. No further action plan. So that means we did work. We don't need to do any more work and we're going to close out the state. Thank So,

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I said this last year, I'll say it again. Frankly, I really appreciate the coming up with a 9,500,000.0, the targeted way in which that is being used. Might we see something similar to that in the upcoming budget presentation?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: I'll let Matt answer

[Matt Chapman (Director, Waste Management and Prevention Division, VT DEC)]: Matt Chapman, the Director of Waste Management Prevention Division. We really don't talk about the budget before the budget is addressed. Mean, are

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I Do ask it in a way that you might feel more comfortable with? Is the remaining $3,000,000 enough to handle the need for focus?

[Matt Chapman (Director, Waste Management and Prevention Division, VT DEC)]: I mean, I think that you know, that is of course a challenge, I think it's something that the committee has identified and something that we don't disagree with, is trying to make sure that we're aligning the work with the capacity both by the schools, state, and the available funding, and trying to find ways to make things work. So that's, know, we're doing what we can to do, I think similar to some of the things that have been talked about by the committee.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So we discussed the bill that I sponsored earlier today, there's a lot in it, but I'd say probably one of the sort of baseline lines in the sand is the deadline for all schools to be tested, because there's just no money to pay for that testing. And you can answer this later, answer now, does the administration have an objection to us suspending that deadline while there's no funding available to provide that test?

[Matt Chapman (Director, Waste Management and Prevention Division, VT DEC)]: So I'm going to say that the agency, I'm not going to go so broad because I think as the committee knows, this program is a collaboration between the Agency of Administrative Education, the Agency of Human Services Department of Health, and ANR and we certainly involve the Attorney General's Office because of all of the ongoing litigation that's going on. I think we are, we appreciate that the legislature and I think all the laws have been clear up to this point, that if the funding is not there to pay for the testing or the work that's going to be done, then it's not an obligation on the school to come up with that funding. So you know I think that again, probably better to have this conversation in a week after the budget address, but if the funding is not there in the budget to provide testing for these schools, then I think it's gonna, it makes sense to push that date back or have another conversation about that date so that we're not putting an unreasonable expectation on schools.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Thank you, appreciate that. So tomorrow we've got a number of superintendents coming in from the six plus maybe a couple others. What are we gonna hear from them in terms of how this isn't perhaps going as well as it might appear on this?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Well, I think to set the table for that, We are trying to address some large impacts to schools, and we're trying to do that while school is in session. And it puts us at odds and it's difficult, but I think we've been working through the best way that we can with the schools. I would say their frustration exists when we implement something and it isn't perfect when we're done with it and we need to try and address it a little more. So Twin Valley Elementary School, they weren't able to use their gym at the timeframe that they wanted to because the cleanup took a little bit longer than it was supposed to. But the results are great now. The concentrations are almost below the pre K SAL and the concentrations that existed there before didn't allow anyone to use the gym. So we made a lot of great progress there, but I think there was some frustration just on some of the timeframes that it took and maybe some of well, that I would put it to the timeframes. North Country I was gonna ask for

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: a North Country update.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: North Country is a difficult school. It's huge. There are a lot of PCB issues at this school. There seems to be a really big connection between heat and increases in PCB concentration at this school.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And by heat, do you mean artificially in the winter or summer heat?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Outdoor temperatures really be impacting the indoor temperatures at this school. We have a lot of suspicions on what is causing that. Again, we are at the point right now with North Country where the school is trying to decide what to do with their school. And so we're trying to use a band aid until they can figure out what to do. Instead of putting a lot more money into the school, we're trying to keep it at a place where the indoor air concentrations are health protective. They can still use the school until they come up with the best outcome for their school district and how they want to move forward. North Country is difficult. I think it's difficult because of the size, we continue to find more PCBs there than we originally thought were there. There's high concentrations of PCBs in the superficial soils outside the school. And so we're trying to work through the best way to make sure they don't spread, that people don't come into contact with them, that they don't get pulled in through their UniVent systems that are right at the surface where the soils are. So there are a lot of different PCB sources and ways that PCBs are causing impacts there that we're trying to manage until there's a better plan on what the path forward is.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I suspect their level of frustration is high given the disruption and money spent to date without the result that everybody had hoped for.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: I think everyone's frustration is high around that, not just theirs. We put a lot of time and energy into trying to do the best that we can based on the science that exists. I still think there's a lot more to do and that outcome is going to be coming soon when we finally get some cleanup plans from the consultant. Overall, I think we work well together. We understand that we're all trying to solve a solution to get to a better outcome, but it's a frustrating problem to work through. Let's see. What else is everyone going to say? Hartford High School. Hartford is a difficult one.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: What's your favorite country too?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: I'm not sure. Hartford's going a little slower than we would like it to go. I think we've been trying to push the work to happen, and the school is trying to maybe take more control over how it's working. There's a difference in opinion on what needs to be cleaned up and what doesn't need to be cleaned up. So we've just been working through stuff that's below the cell that the school wants to also address in areas that are above the cell. But I think we found a path forward and we're looking for the consultant to get us those planning documents and then to a corrective action plan.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Is it fair to say that in some of these schools, they're all at different sort of stages, but like you talked about at Green Mountain Union High School, one of the things you spend money on is testing the material that the PCBs may have migrated into and to what level they need to be addressed. So theirs could turn into a multi billion dollar project. We're just not there yet.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Green Mountain, you mean?

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, or many of these other ones, mainly Green. I

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: would say North Country, if I go back to North Country, which has been the school that has had the highest concentrations in all of their classrooms. It is not just specific areas in their school. It is their entire school except for their gym area. Hartford is just a small portion of their school. Twin Valley is a small portion of their school. Bellis Falls is a small portion of their school. So we can highlight the specific areas within those schools. North Country is the entire school pretty much. So that one is the difficulty that we're having with North Country. With Hartford, they had a small portion that were above the IEL. They were lucky enough to be able to move their students off off campus and not use Immediately.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You, sir. It's like you got to deal with this now.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: Yeah. So that was Hartford. We were able to relocate some students and not have to worry about those classrooms, which allows us to focus a little more on them. Green Mountain was the same. Their 3rd Floor was the one that was most contaminated. They haven't used that floor, but now they're looking to, I think, bring in sixth and seventh graders. And so we're looking at the best way for that to happen at Green Mountain Union High School.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Belliswell, it says here that most recent sampling had PCB concentrations below. Does that mean they've been able to turn off their filters?

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: They have. They turn off their filters. Belliswell has actually put in a new HVAC system. So that was part of they were doing that on their own. They had money to do that. So they implemented that. We were doing some cleanup. We're doing, I think the last phase of cleanup there, they have PCBs that were sprayed onto some of their I beams so that cleanup work is happening right now, but we're seeing great results at Bell's Falls.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Sorry, didn't mean to go to individual cases. Alright. Okay. Who's have other questions? So just sort of as we talk about this, tomorrow we're gonna hear from some superintendents, so you just get a sense of what's on the ground. Friday. Friday. We will probably come back with these folks to talk a little bit more about actually H542 specifically, kind of where the administration might be on it. What might be, I just wanna be clear, I put that bill in, I put it in asking for the world and assuming that it's gonna get pared back in order to sort of, based on testimony that we hear. So, bill's gonna be adjusted based on testimony and I'm obviously fine with that. But that's sort of the process with all of this. I mean, again, to me, the big concern is, we've got a deadline sitting on the books and all schools are required to test and we have no money for it. I did have a question, but it's all out of my head, so I think I've spoken enough on this. It's the useful of killing memory. They even tested my old high school yet to pass out.

[Matt Chapman (Director, Waste Management and Prevention Division, VT DEC)]: It migrates right now.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Great, thank you very much. That is going to wrap it up for us today, because we're on the floor at three, and then we have the Caucus of the Whole. Can anybody tell us what the topic is for the Caucus of the Whole? That's true. Okay, that's the general stuff. Do check the agenda as we've been adding things. So now we do have some work on Friday afternoon from one to three.

[Tricia Coppolino (Senior Program Manager, VT DEC Contaminated Sites Program)]: One to three, but not scheduling at thirty.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Not at three. We're going through to 03:30.