Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Today. I

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: thought you were gonna have to before you go live, thought you were gonna have us talk about the forensic lab.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: Mhmm. Okay. Why did you roll us out as well? So to. Alright.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. Might as well

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: talk about that first.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The forensic lab? Why the forensic lab? We've already lived through it.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: Forensic facility.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Forensic lab.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: Did I say the forensic mean, it's a facility.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When you said forensic lab

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: But it might be a lab.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's true. Might be a lab. That's right.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: It's a forensic facility. It's an evil word around here. So good morning, Wanda. Come on, Tate. Hot tea.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh, it's the end of session. Anyways, good morning, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. I don't even know what day. It's the '20 And we're on the home stretch of finishing up this session soon, we hope. But we had a few minutes this morning. We wanted to bring in BTS just to give us an update on where we are on the replacement of the women's correctional facility. We've gone through proposal for some land in Essex, and that sort of fell through, that fell through. And so BGS and DOC is regrouping. So we just like to know lay of the land at this point. So commissioner, welcome.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: So good morning. Welcome to spring. It's almost June.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's almost summer.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: Wanda M. Nulli, commissioner of buildings and general services. So the update is, as you know, this committee, BGS and DOC have worked and other committees have worked for quite a while on trying to establish the new woman's correctional facility. We had land in Essex. There were two sites. Long story short, those sites, one was doable. The other one we found out near the end was not viable to build on, even though we were going down two sites. We modified our zoning request with Essex to one site, Essex through, they were very good partners. We worked well with them. We tried to provide them all the information. At the end, they did not extend our request to build on that site. So with that said, we regrouped, we put a request for proposals together, and we went directly to brokers instead of just advertising because I think part of And what we did is we tried to lock, we tried to be much more, we were much more specific in the RFP to let people know it is going to be proposed for a woman's correctional facility. We need X amount of land. It can't be next to a school. I mean, all of those things were very, very clear. And we came to agreement with the Department of Corrections on those. In February, we received one bid, still confidential, with two parcels from one bidder. We've completed the analysis of that RFP, and a few documents were missing. It wasn't at the point where we were going to have to reject all of these because sometimes when you are not responsive, your request is we don't consider it. It was information that we felt we could just go out and reach back out to the broker and say, we need a little bit more information on the deed, for example. We expect to receive that on or before June 5. With that, then if both sites are eligible and meet all of our criteria, the next step is we actually go through working with the Department of Corrections. We'll do an evaluation of the two sites to determine which site we think is feasibly better. We also have brought into the process, which we did not do with Essex, is there's going to be some site analysis with engineers. Because that's what happened in Essex. Everyone said, yes, this is the best site. We like it. It visually looked well. When we started testing the soil and looking at some of the permits and the requirements, it wasn't the right site. So, So we're going to incorporate that up front so we don't have to go through that experience again, where we choose a site, we start our process for permitting, and all of a sudden the site has a problem. And that's where we're at, madam chair, in numbers.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Point in after the June 5 or whatever, then you start doing the testing and analysis of the Mhmm. Is that gonna be public at that point?

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: If we do a letter of intent to purchase the land, it will become public. I think we should be talking about it. We haven't gotten that far. It could be an I'm not making this up. I don't know. We have not discussed the best way to approach. We could do a letter of intent with conditions that the site needs to meet x, y, and z. It could be that type of thing. We have not gotten there yet. I can tell you that the property was restricted really into the and the larger Chittenden area. That was in the request from brokers.

[Emily (BGS staff on siting/zoning)]: So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: in previous capital bills, you would have like $14,000,000 $15,000,000 already there. Right. The previous capital bills we gave you the authority to purchase. That's correct. And we laid it out that first look at state owned property and that if that was unfeasible, then you could go on the market.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: That is correct. I wasn't here when you added that language, but that is the guiding language that we are using through this process.

[Unidentified Committee Member (lives near current facility)]: This is a very basic logistical question about information, but regardless of whether I'm back here next year, I live walking distance from the current facility. I got a bunch of folks in my neighborhood who are interested. I'm still a rep until January regardless. How can I best get information as it becomes available without being a nuisance? What's the who do I how do I find out? Is there a push?

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: I really think it's me and Emily.

[Unidentified Committee Member (lives near current facility)]: Right, do you guys?

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: Yeah, just I mean, well, don't have every It

[Unidentified Committee Member (lives near current facility)]: won't be Brian. It won't be like 105,000.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: No, I mean, you know, and we want to share information with you as soon as we can because we know that it's important. And we want to be able to work with this, with all of the concerns and making sure communities are comfortable, again, with this correctional facility. And I want to just go back to the point that Emily just made. Being zoned for Is it institutional? Is that the term?

[Emily (BGS staff on siting/zoning)]: The terminology, it can vary. But yeah, correctional facility use for institutional use.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: So the institutional use can be determined differently in every place. And I think that's part of our struggle. But we are trying to be Again, we don't There's all sorts of land out there. We don't want just a piece of land that's not going to be supportive. We're trying to at least acknowledge it meets the needs. We're not asking for changes. That's a lot to take to, as all of you know, representing your communities, go in and ask for change of use, to put a correctional facility, a woman's facility, do you know, that is being proposed to look different, feel different is very difficult. It is very, very difficult and pretty much out of the gate, it's no.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So if this does come to fruition and you have a letter of intent, in the best case scenario, would you actually see purchasing the land prior to us coming back next January?

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: That's a possibility with the authority that you've given us. Because if it's a viable land, if it's a viable site, and it checks all of the boxes, yes. And a letter of intent is our the letter of intent would be it is our intent to purchase, and it might be based on a couple of conditions with permits or I wanna say things that aren't going to be true. That letter of intent is an obligation. And I think we have to, and we've talked about this, it's the next step before you finalize your contract and your sales agreement. So the state is saying in that intent, we're here, we're here to do business, we're committing, because they would take it off the market, right, and we don't want to have a negative impact. So,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: yes. So I'm just thinking of this committee's role and interest, and I don't want a situation where we end up reading about it in the press or hearing about it in the news that there has been a letter of intent. I would ask Absolutely. This committee posted when it becomes before it hits the press, but it will be public. I I think that would be fair to the committee. I don't wanna be in a situation to read about it and see what's going on. We need to know prior to the public announcements.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: So, madam chair, I absolutely I you know, we've worked together for years that having that conversation through a phone call. Usually, I go to the chair, and then I will let the chair reach out to everyone. In that, I enjoy working with all of you. I just am probably not gonna call each and every one of you. No.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Would be It'd up to me to get the information. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: John?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: So just getting back to the getting the approval. So is there is there any way for the town to give us some kind of blessing? Whatever town you're dealing with, that would be they're gonna say, yeah. That there's that I guess you can't get a 100%. How does that, like how how do you get, like instead of buying it and then finding out, or do you find out first and then buy it?

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: I I I wanna say, I think we have to respect the processes and the laws that everyone has put in place. And there's local permitting and there's state permitting, and we follow those to the T. So I don't believe a select board chair would say, I don't want to be debating it locally, representative, before we file our application or whatever those those elements are. So I I think that we're gonna have opposition and support either way. What we need to do as the Department of Buildings and General Services is be transparent, do our due diligence, provide them the information they need, and have those conversations. And I am open and willing to have conversations with a working group, with one on one at public meetings, but we do have to let that process work through.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: Thanks. Thank you. Kevin? Maybe I didn't understand. Can we not offer to purchase the land contingent on it being approved by the-

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: It depends on what it is. So I think we're you know, so we will, in our intent, make it clear that if there if we know that we need to get I'm just using this as an example, a zoning permit Right. Or, you know, some type of something. Our intent will we always have contingent upon or an out clause in our contracts.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: So Okay.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: That of course, that will be there. But it's not gonna be it has to be approved by the local. It has to be aligned with whatever existing laws are in place Right. Local or state. So we're not

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: gonna get stuck with a piece of property that we can't use is what I'm saying.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: That's not our intent.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Six seventeen.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: We got enough property that's

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: not 617. Thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: We, Kevin? Yeah, we do.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: Emily, you'd like to add?

[Emily (BGS staff on siting/zoning)]: Yeah, just zoning piece, and this just might

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: be helpful. The goal, and as far as

[Emily (BGS staff on siting/zoning)]: the RMP to the goal, at least from a zoning perspective, is to find a site home already permitted use. So that is our hope is to find a site because that's where we ran into trouble in Brazjans and Essex is because we needed have a zoning change and there's a lot of process involved and we were never able

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: to get

[Emily (BGS staff on siting/zoning)]: past that step. So our hope here is to find a site where the community has already decided that's acceptable in that area based on their local zoning. So again, we need to confirm that, but that's the hope.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: And then of course there's other

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: Right, but I think that's, you know, so that's just one piece. Then there might be other permits that we're still going to have to go before the community, and they may have opportunity to respond. We would also say, well, if our intent and our hope is to have a property that we don't have to go through a zoning change, however, it might be the only property, and we may decide this is something we wanna explore.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Leading off with leading up front, I think, was brilliant. That was so great that you like with the RFP, this is what that was great. That, I mean, that to And me was

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: I appreciate that. And I just wanna say to everyone and to myself, when we have a lesson learned, not once but twice, let's try to create a process that allows us to have that upfront. There's no secrets. There shouldn't mean, we have to protect the bids. We have to do all of that. But all of you and the state of Vermont and DOC and BGS have been looking at There's been a desire to replace the women's correction facility. If we're going to do that, we need to find a location and a community that supports while we also try to accommodate some of the programming. So the further we get away from a location that we're at, some of that programming accommodation becomes less. And that's going to be the balance. I don't know if we're going be able to have it all.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that's where it would be good for the committee to obsession know where we are. Not that we can take any action. And I would also say that we would have you and DOC before the Joint Justice Oversight Committee as well. Well, I

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: think we're in there on a few other things. Other

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: questions?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I just and I don't know how much of this you can share. I let me the two parcels of lands in two different towns? Yes. Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You're interested.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: You hear me?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: That's great. Yeah. To me, that's actually that's good.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: Same

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: developer. It's it's property. It's not a developer because I don't know if it's the same. I well, it's one bid, so I would have to say it's probably the same owner or owners.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: Yeah. How many bells are in the name of the town? Yeah. Well well, wait a minute.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: No. But which town? Which one am I doing the bell go on?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: No, I know that. Listen, I know that.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: I get it.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: But that's promising that it was

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: too different. That's good.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: What's that zip code? I was hoping to get a few more. I know fits our responses because we did request for proposals, which has an estimated cost. So it's not like a. And we always talk about that, right? When we go out to bid, we're acknowledging and accepting a bid and going through the process and we can do this. But the request for proposal is here's a proposal, here's a site in this case, here are options. We can determine through our process that neither work, and then we could go back out again. We're not sort of in this bid locked in process, which I'm not articulating that well. But there is a difference.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming in at the last Yeah.

[Wanda Minoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services]: And thank you for the session, everyone. Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: At attending. And

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: so are they.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah, now you can get

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Kevin Winter)]: back

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: to work and