Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Alright. We are live. Today is 05/20/2026. This is the community conference of the Senate Institutions and House Institutions and Corrections Committee. And we are here to receive the response from the House. Okay. Know, a lot of moving pieces and a lot of blatant information that's come up. It's just from. Yes. So we're gonna what I'd like to do this morning is deal with the three acre because there's some real different dollar amounts here that I wanna share with folks in terms of what we've received from VGS, what we're thinking with the three acre and the new fourth quarter. Okay. And then we've got some real information as well as the door controls, particularly with the Saint Johnsbury bid. So I'd like to be so I'd like to work through that, and I will explain where we are. I have some documents here, and BGS is here with us. So stormwater permits, this is what is already out. This is coming from BGS, and we wanted to get the estimated cost in the permits when they're going out to bid in the permits. And I've and testimony that was received to our committee, once the project has received a permit, there's five years to get the project done. So you don't need to do it immediately. And what we've looked at, can we spread our dollars out over a number of capital bills so you don't front load it with high up money because BGS can't get construction done in one fiscal year. So you've got that five year window once you have the permit. So what VTS has indicated is Middlesex Northwest Correctional Facility, just in Newport, in Pittsburgh, and going on. Northwest is that's Saint Albans. I'm sorry. Northwest is Saint Albans Correctional Facility, Pittsburgh Training And Cabin, and the Newport Facility, correction Facility. Those, they intend to do. So if you add up 153,500, $1,800,000.75, $8.50 and 1.875, you need 4,753,000. That's over at the right hand. Yeah. And so you say again the total, and so that's the total of the first three items? Four. Oh, including the 1.875 for Newport. Okay. So what's The storm pumps. Yeah. Storm water pumps. Okay. That's 4.753. Okay. So what they have what they have in the bank. This is testimony that we received. Today or yesterday? No. We received this way back. This document came to us in January when they presented the capital bill. They had at that time 5,800,000. K? That includes the 1,100,000 in bonds. That's why we've cut from that. Okay. So the that's so the balance, that's what you're seeing in 5.8 is at the bottom? No. Okay. So I'm gonna refine it further. Okay. What BGS just told us. K. If you look on this sheet right here, what they have in the bag is 4.5 millimeter. Okay. If you will find this sheet here, the 4,500,000 is from FY '24 bond, FY '25 bond, and FY '26. That's what they're gonna need. At least 4.5, they already have it. We're gonna suggest we'll find the money somewhere. We're gonna suggest we go in 5,000,000 instead to make them whole so that they have enough money to get them through to do those four carpets. Which if we do that, because it includes the stormwater ponds, we'll then help to avoid. So what we like to do is to zero out your 1,000,000 in cash and then cut the three acre parcel, our 1.1 in bonds. Cut it to half 1,000,000. Because that's what they need is half 1,000,000 to make it 5,000,000. Okay. Because you wanna give them 5,000,000 to them. So we're saying we can move money around, you zero out your cash, and you decrease our 1.1 in bonds to 500,000. So that takes care of what they need for three acres, and that will also take care of Newport for the boiler. And we're okay with what you did for the boiler for Newport. Because I was starting to. Mhmm. I'm saying you can go forward with that. Do we have any questions? We can I mean, will Gina talk about her?

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: I don't have any questions about what you've just said. I'm just now curious where you guys you went with the savings.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We haven't figured that out yet.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: K.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is what's happening is we're getting new information that's changing everything with with the money. Because we got another piece that's really cut, but just yesterday that came to our attention. It's so we just gotta do this step by step. So at least if we can make the agreement on a three acre parcel piece to understand the moving dollars that we don't need the full amount. And BGS is here to answer questions on this because we've got this from BGS yesterday. And, again, I just wanna say our committee was really what we were working on a treatment of our so we wanna make sure we can lift. But it's once they get the permit, you have five years to do the project. So that gives us a lot of flexibility in our capital bill for the next few years. And we're very hard with it. We don't wanna lock up money and have it just sit there if BGS can get project out the door in that fiscal year for the beginning of this year. We just want to make our modules spread out as far as we can. That's logical. Montpelier is the big unknown because that's this whole district. So, that's what we're proposing for the three acre parcel. And then we've accepted what you put in for you for the Newport boiler because those are so intertwined. Okay. We wanna make sure that the stormwater ponds are covered because you can't do anything with the boiler.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: Right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Until then. Until then. And they need the ability to order the boilers and other equipment around that. And by keeping those dollars in for the boiler allows BGS to at least place in those orders. Okay. That's helpful. Let me just see if BGS wants to add any information. One of the only for the record, I will, I'll answer any questions. There's nothing I need to add. I, of course, I say that, and then I want to add.

[Unidentified BGS representative]: I think what was really important that I believe, Senator Harrison, you talked about yesterday, representative, Emmons just brought up. When we put our budget together, they're estimates. We go and we present. Those projects keep evolving and things do change and clarity and and other items come in or we get bids. And so with the stormwater, when you look at that sheet, you'll see that we've received some. We have some bids. The projects have moved forward. And I think that's, you know, just beneficial to the whole group to understand. It's not stagnant from January if those projects keep evolving. Right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And I appreciate you working with us on it. Okay. Okay. So that's that's what we're proposing. The next piece that came to our attention yesterday, pulls stuff out of the water, same j door controls. If you go to line 25 Mhmm. Same j Oh, 25, not Oh, that's right. No. Same j door control. So here you go. Yeah. And right on the back of that, which name? So currently, for Saint Jay, they have currently about 6,700,000, if you look on this sheet here. They've currently got about 6,700,000 for the door control in Saint Jay. It just came back at 10.2.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: within that bid, 8,000,000 of that bid is for the logs, And then the remaining 2 was millions is for, like, stealing the windows or other items they made in play as they start taking the doors off and they find some things. So the bid came in at two point at 10.2. So if you push the 2,700,000 of the door controls to Saint Jake, Take out the line item, the floor controls. Put that 2.7 door controls. Do my math in the back. It's right. We have 10,200,000. We take away 6.7 because we have they have 6,700,000 in the bank. Leaves us with $3,500,000 hold. You put the 2.7 towards that 3.5. We go back just one sec. The, 6.7, that's not the the total of these appropriations. So there must be some other You've got one to see. But they expanded some. Is this one of them? And Scott can offer some. Well, includes all the monies that's been up to this point for this project. Okay. So there must be some that's not shown in this. Well, you've got 70,000,000 total. Did it not have never did. Well, get that's the 27 bond, which hasn't happened yet. But it's in our bill. Okay. So you're counting that? Yeah. Okay. Okay. We didn't touch it. Alright. Alright. That's either committees did not touch it. We had 3,600,000 in this year. Okay. We had 1,000,000 last year and 2.6 this year for 3.6. Okay. So what they've had prograde in the past brings them to 7,000,000 and they've expended 289,000. So they ended the bank 6.7. Okay. Got it. And so we have a $3,500,000 hole, and we can put the 2.7 too fast, which leaves us with half $1,000,000 hole, which we'll find somewhere.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: Sorry. 800, I'm sure.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Is it $803.05. That would never just. Good. And that's that's two. So it's an $800,000 hole, which we can find that money somehow. The other piece that plays into this is the 10.2 does not include contingency or for for works. That's another two. Is the 10.2 just for the one? Yes. That is nuts. Yes. Is did we get just one bed? Doctor. But would you like me to respond? Sure.

[Unidentified BGS representative]: Well Okay. I just wanna make we have floor at ten. So I just Okay. This project isn't so Saint Johnsbury is lost. Showers, windows, and flooring. And we did a construction management, and we just received the guaranteed maximum price for the scope of the work, which is the 10.2. And that just recently came in, and then we have to add a contingency in our clip of the works on top of it. So the whole project, is is now 10.2 plus. So it's it's really, estimated at 12.5 if we do a 10% contingency for the project. And that's always been the scope, but I think we have focused on the lots And to the conference committees, the lots of that project is $8,800,000 for that building. And and then the 1.3 is for the showers, windows and other replacements. We've this is always all of these facilities. These are electronic locks. They're extremely expensive. I think we've testified to the detail behind it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So there could be other movements of other dollars and we're in our budget. We could take half half 1,000,000 from the three acre parcel. We'll be freed up towards that. There's other little items there that maybe we could put towards this. We're not there yet, but we wanted to put this on the table pretty close. This just came out yesterday about 04:30. Yeah. It's been thirty. We've gotta take care of those door locks. So we'll put the 2.7. We zero out that line of door controls and put the 2.7 in the sink jack. Line out. And then maybe put half 1,000,000 of 1,000,000 for three acres, and that's just bigger something. Oh, that's Rutland. Well, Rutland is half 1,000,000 for design. I And we're 30% done. And we're 30% done. When do you anticipate going out to bid and do the work in Rutland? I don't have that that information. Would that be during FY twenty seventh? That that is the plan to wrap it up. And I just want to say to the committee, I think that, you know, we're gonna see Rutland is almost an identical thing to Saint Johnsbury, just to give you a preview. And I'll confirm that for the committee when you break. Would you still have as much windows and showers that down in Rutland? Do you I will confirm that. I I I don't is older. Saint Jay or Rutland. Rutland used to be the girl's school. So that was I think Rutland is older and has gone through many many adjustments over over the years as I recall. I think Rutland is older. It's an older building. Saint John's where you did in your seventies or eighties? Yeah. Chittenden we did in the late sixties. Yep. And then Marble Valley was the building that was used for the girls, like the jams for the boys. And then I don't remember when we took over that building. Must have been around the 70s. That's when we all transitioned from the Windsor facility being the one facility to Virginia. Mhmm. That was another 60. That would be nice. That's two. Know you have to be on the whoops.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: Yeah. Can I just ask a clarifier? I think when I get all the numbers you put out there, but the total project, Saint James projects, think you indicated is about 12,200,000.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that's if we include a 10% contingency. That's what the 10% contingency is. So that's going to take a little further conversation. Which

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: would then also be probably from, again, the description similar to what we're gonna see for Rutland.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. Depending on those extra pieces, if it's windows or showers, sometimes I have to two and a half million. Yeah.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: So you're still talking ten minutes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Ten minutes. Not that we don't wanna do it. But two other things. Did you you said you might have some language for 110 State Street or anything. Is there any I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that after our conversations from yesterday? No. I mean, it gets more and more complicated the more I learn. That's what's happening. So is your position still that you wanna repeat all the language to sell? Yes. I mean, this we aren't finished Okay. Obviously. So I've got some questions on language, but I know we've got four parts here. And, can we go to the language for the hubs? Sure. Real quick. And that's on page 14. How are you using your? So we wanna allow them to enter into a lease, and you want to negotiate with us. Can you give us the reasoning behind the difference there? The difference is that we don't have specifications or even guidelines on the lease terms. What I was planning to do is that these two committees together would come up with parameters. So, if you look at our language, there are parameters to the lease. It's a twenty year option to renew. Right. It's essentially forty years. I think it's two tens. And we do that quite often. Yeah. I see. But it doesn't have the terms of the compensation to the state. So it's the fees? That's one of the items, yes. And then the other things, conditions on the use of the structure, Vermont Hunts would secure insurance and they have to abide by bulletin 3.5, which is what the state does for negotiations with termination of the lease. This is all language that we put in? Correct. You identified the items that we need to discuss, but they don't have, except for the term, they don't have specifics in them or even just a range. Is it basically just for the other items? Let's talk more when we have our time about it. I'm happy to talk more. And this, you probably saw the grant agreement that they have with the federal government. This would be a good thing for you to look at because With the federal The Vermont Pets Association. Is where they're getting the funding. Oh, alright. And this is for more than just that site. These are for other sites also. So, is that problematic that they're getting funding? No, it's good that they're funding. But this funding is also, so this has parameters for the HUS association, which is helpful. So, we wouldn't want to put anything in conflict with this into our lease. So did you work with Ledge Council on this to make sure it wasn't conflict? Because we worked with Michael O'Grady. No, we haven't. We didn't have time. We ran out of time to work on this. That's why the language is the way it is in our bill because the intent is to work with you folks. Kate, do you have that? Oh yeah, we can put that up. And then maybe we can work with Michael because we worked with Michael and Will Greer, went for Mt. Huts and worked for us in parks to make sure everything was. Okay. So we can we can get with Michael. And so I think that would be something that our companies would have to look into. Okay. Does that make sense the most? Yes. You're on the floor at ten? Yes. We're on the floor at ten. We're back on the floor at one. We are here this afternoon, We're not all here tomorrow afternoon. So this afternoon would be helpful. Yeah. What's your schedule for the floor this afternoon? We technically I mean, don't have the floor.

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: We'll probably finish the floor at one, unless we didn't have today.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You're what? We'll start at

[Gina Galfetti (Member)]: ten and probably finish up on

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: my house. Okay. Because we go back on the floor. My issue was we have a bill up. I think it's gonna come up in the afternoon, and I have to be on the floor for the report. It's about the forensic facilities, the S 193. I'm just not sure when that's gonna come up. So if I can get insurances in terms of when they might be able to take that and walk today on the floor, then that will help when Okay. Okay. So tell take and take a little pill out sitting. So are you folks okay with the three acre in Saint Jay, or are you gonna do some roughing? Well, we're gonna talk about it. Okay. Sounds good. So let me get back to you, miss. We're doing an s 130. Okay. That's the.