Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Welcome folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is Tuesday, April 28 and we're continuing our afternoon meeting. We have with us some folks who have some lived experiences. They have spent some time in some of our correctional facilities here in Vermont and they were up here visiting about a month, two months ago and reached out offered them the opportunity to come back and just finally share with us what they experienced when they are separated and what they're experiencing now because they've reentered the community what that experience was like. So, let's introduce ourselves first, what town, city we're from, and then I'm going to turn it over to Molly Mahoney from the CJC back home Windsor County, just to give an overview. I'm Alice M. Emmons, I'm the chair of the committee. I'm not a company that represents my committee.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: James Gregoire, vice chair of committee. From Fairfield.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Hey. Thanks for coming in, guys. Conor Casey right here in Montpelier.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Mary Morrissey Bennington.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Brian Minier of South Burlington, and thanks for coming by.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Joe Luneau of State Auburn City. Thanks for being here. Good afternoon. I'm Troy Headrick. I represent a portion of Burlington.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: My name is Kevin Winter, and

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I represent Love Doors, Shrewsbury and Mount Hollett. Will Greer and I represent Bennington. Shawn Sweeney represent St. George and Chittenden.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you'll see Tate Holland over there, he's our committee assistant, he keeps us straight and narrow, he does all the scheduling. He does all the work. We just do the talking. So Holly, welcome to start down the background stuff for the background. Just give us a brief overview.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: So I'm Pauli Mahoney from

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: the Greater Falls Community Justice Center and we have a center in Springfield as well as center in Bellis Falls. And my main job is as reentry coordinator. And so I work with people coming out of incarceration and we offer two main programs. One is COSA, Circles of Support and Accountability, another is navigation, just meeting people where they're at, helping them with whatever they need. Ed started as a navigation client. We also have a bike shop, which is very unique, which we are able to provide used bikes that have been repaired to clients and also the community at large. So now Ed is giving back to the Justice Center and the community, I think probably more than he ever got from the Justice Center, but he's a great bike mechanic and he's gotten a lot of bikes out to people who need them. So that's kind of how I know Ed and that's basically what I do. And this is Eugene from Northeast Canada.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Eugene we'll have time to stand with you as well. So Edwin welcome and if you could just identify yourself for the Brentwood.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I'm Edmund Martin, I'm 63, I'm going Springfield, Vermont.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So if you could just share with us how long ago you were incarcerated, how long you were incarcerated, what facilities maybe you ended up living in, what some of your experiences were, and then what helped you or did not help you when you were reentering the community? And then what status were you on when you reentered the community? So all of those little pieces, and I'm sure many members will be asking you questions, we can enter into just a dialogue. And Eugene, we're gonna offer you the same.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: The last time I was incarcerated was 2023. I I've been in all the drills, even the ones that are closed I've been. The last one I was in was Springfield. And I got released to a cause I wanted to switch from St. Albans to here. So the only way I could do it was go to rehab. Being released from jail, it's it's a nightmare. I mean, they don't care if you get something to wear. They don't care if you get an ID. Like, there's times like, this time of year, I got released. I had a check-in my pocket, but no ID. So, therefore, I I couldn't buy nothing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How long ago were you released? When were you released? '23?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: June '23.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And what status were you on furlough? Parole? Did you serve?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I got released to parole to Valley Vista. And then from Valley Vista, I did their program two weeks, two and a half weeks. And I went to Turnpoint.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Springfield?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Springfield. So working on my release, that's about the only thing good that happened out of the deal was that turning point got me a bed there because I had to have a bed to be released from the jail. Yeah. So I had no idea. No. No.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we do we do offer IDs. And I wonder, in your case, of some of the paperwork that changed or lost because we do have non driver IDs. You were sentenced. So somehow the paperwork didn't get through.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Well, a lot of the caseworkers will tell you that that you have to be in a certain period of time. Six months. And I was just barely in six months. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: what else besides an ID would have been stumbling block? Do you

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I think having some resources, like, maybe food stamps. I know they have applications for it, but it's getting them to to do it. The day I left was the day that I did my application for food stamps.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So that was working with your caseworker?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yes. Now not being from Springfield, I had no idea where anything was. You know? So I guess, like, I could feel that my reentry should have been a little bit better than what it was.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: you released to Turning Point?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I don't know. I was released to Valley Vista.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Valley Vista. And how you were there for a couple of weeks? Yeah. And then turning? Yep. How long did you stay with Turning Point? How easy or hard was it to get out of Turning Point into a distant place else?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It was easy to get out. I spent eighteen months here. It's a two year program. I got myself a cantor. And I was out of lot that I held since on at one given point in time. So I had water and electricity. I my PO didn't want me staying in it over the wintertime, so they put me into a DLC apartment, I guess it is.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah. Springfield supportive housing. It's through supportive housing. Yeah.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: And getting out of turning point was quite simple.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: You said you left with a check. How how much money did you leave corrections with?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: When I left the jail, I it was it was, like, a

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: $120. That's from what you were paid for working inside? Yeah. How much of that did

[Brian Minier (Member)]: you save, and how much of that did

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: you spend as you worked? I know what you all get paid. I'm pretty opposed to what you all get credited. I'm getting at how easy or hard was it for you to save a little something upon your release versus spending money to make life a little more bearable while you were there?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It wasn't that hard for me because I didn't need that much.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Okay. So most of what you made you said? Yeah.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: And it was a total of our

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yes. How long did that last you when you got home?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: When I got out? Lasted me probably a couple days because once I got out and went to Turnbull, I went to Boston Falls. Okay. I had absolutely nothing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So when you came in,

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: how long were you in Prussia?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: That time, six months.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So when you came in, what happened to your property? You just came in with clothes. You came in with something. Well What happened?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I came in weighing, like, a hundred and fifty pounds. I went out weighing two ten. Wow. Nothing's bit.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But did you get all your possessions back?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. Yeah. We talked about food stamps and being able to sign up. Did Vista, did they provide food or did Turning Point and they were

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Valley Vista, they thought it was part of the program.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Did you have to pay for or no?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: No. That was paid due to my my health insurance. Turnpoint, you had to buy your own home. They didn't furnish nothing.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Well, just going from what

[Brian Minier (Member)]: you were saying to Mary, the health insurance part, was there any medication that you had to leave with? How was it getting any kind of health care taken care of? What kind of that part? I was on Suboxone Yep.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: When I when I left the jail. When I got to Vallejo Vista, they supplied it. Yep. And when I got out, I had to get myself a primary care doctor. And then I had to set up with SAVIVA, which is who I go through right now. I had to set up a gun in order to continue on it.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Is there help with that kind of stuff? Is it like, here's a

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: sheet of numbers? What what does that look like? Right.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Well No. When I got out, I found out what the Economic Service Building was. I went there and they pointed me in the right direction to go to get me a primary care doctor. And that was like pulling teeth. It took a while to get one of them. I was off of Suboxone about a few weeks before before I could even see anybody.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Did you leave the facility with some of the medication, though?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I did. That's what they gave me at Valley Vista.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. So when you left Valley Vista, it was a little different than when you went down to turning point.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When you got off the Suboxone, was that a good transition or was it because you didn't have a doctor?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I didn't get off, I didn't have any.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh, well, that's what I kind of meant was that Yeah.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. Those are the

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you didn't have any medication.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Was that a tough Yeah. Transition because going cold turkey's after being hot.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Right. Yeah. The only thing that I had going for me when I got out was I still had health insurance.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And did they help you sign up before you came out?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It never got canceled.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Were on Medicaid? Yeah.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah, sure. I wonder how hard it is to stay clean when you're incarcerated, and whether that varies from facility. Specifically, wondered, like, if you wanna get something, like illicit drugs, can you get it, and what does it take to get it? How accessible is it?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: You can get it. It take it takes money.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah. And

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that's something that takes money.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. And then it's that that's something I didn't have. Right. You know? But it is possible to get.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: That's all the facilities you're in? Yeah. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But that would be inmate too, inmate?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. Some were harder than others. You know, it depends on what facility you're in. From my experience, I think Newport's the hardest.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Just the

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The hardest in what way?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: To get anything. Whether you're trying to buy tobacco or you're trying to trying to buy drugs. Newport is the hardest jail to get anything from.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And why do you think that is? Security or site?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: To be honest with you, think it's more the staff is more honest. Because that's basically how it comes in.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Does it come in through visitors as well?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Depends on I don't think I wasn't a type that got visits when I was in jail. But I wanna say they all got plexiglass now. So it's very, very hard to get it too busy.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: Just wanna say one thing. So Ed was out for a year before he came to the Justice Center. Is that right, Ed?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah, about that.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: We're hoping the Justice Center that we can fill some of these gaps. So it would have been better if I had connected with Ed and we had become a client before he exited because we might have been able, you know, he might have let us know that his clothes were going to be too small because I think you had to exit in your jail gear, right? So that's pretty hard. So hopefully the Justice Center can fill some of these weird gaps that you can't really anticipate.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But I also

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: wanted Ed for you to share whatever you want from sort of the overall, because you have exited a number of times, not just this last time, but is there any theme over the last, over all of those that you can say what your experience is typically like?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I got released about the same way every time.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: Does that mean no EBT card and no ID?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: There's a couple of times I got a face sheet.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What is that?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: What is it?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Face sheet.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It's a it's it's your booking picture with with your information on it.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Well, that's supposed to serve as your ID.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There was a mix up for your ID. I looked into this when you mentioned it. And there was a mix up where you had had an ID in '22 during your initial release '22. Your subsequent release, even though the ID was requested in the offender management system, The office that was responsible for processing that ID document never received that notification. And that came to highlight after the fact that DOC corrected that problem, but you did have an ID issued to you in '22 during your initial release. So when you were released in '23 that that notification went through the offender management system, but it never got processed. So that's what happened to your initial.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Do you mind asking, I don't think you've told us, how many times were you actually incarcerated? Do you mind telling me for what? DWI. DWI.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: On my branch of DWI.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay. And can you think of anything that looking back could have helped you avoid the repeated issue? What would have helped you stop doing that?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I didn't have the support I have now. I've been sober for nineteen years right now. And but I didn't have the support that I have now. And I think it did me really great justice for relocating. I'm not saying that I would have drank, but the possibility is definitely a lot higher than what what I would have right now. You know what I mean? I think I got some great support out there right now. Best I've ever had.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Family, friends, organization, what kind of support do you have?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I don't I don't have no I don't have no family books. They're all gone. K. I got the Justice Center. I got Turnpoint. I do go to church. I got my bike shop. You

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: got a community around you that's Yeah. Urgent doing keeping you accountable?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Or And I'm in a town that don't have no bars.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I could know. Sugar or something. Sorry. Yeah.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: They might have one or two, but

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: They're hard to get to.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Not like Burlington, you know? It's good bars. No.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: This is Springfield?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is Springfield.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. What kind of town are you from, Cherokee?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Swan. Swan.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: There you go. It's our neck.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It's your neck. Wearing swan? Around Plain Street. Okay. 49 Plain Street.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Ed, if I may, just tell me it's none of your business. That'll be a fine answer. But you said that you were getting Suboxone. So to me, it's more than alcohol. You were taking other drugs? Well, I got on methadone. I got cancer.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I got lymphoma. They put me on methadone for the pain. And methanol started deteriorating my bones and weight loss and all kinds of side effects. So they ended up putting me on Suboxone. That that was the reason behind that. Thank you. I'm not I'm not a drug either.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Thank you for clarifying that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So when were you diagnosed with it? Why you were incarcerated or ab?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: No, I was living in Brattleboro in 2009. Was diagnosed with lymphoma. And I had my first surgery in jail. I ended up going five times for surgery and chemo and radiation.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The last

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: my last surgery was 2015. So far as it came back.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: when you came out, when you were diagnosed, were

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: you incarcerated when you were diagnosed?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No. So you did have a primary care provider at something. Yeah. And then through your incarceration, confirmed you ended up losing contact with your primary care provider?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: No, because Springfield's got a good gout center. They got a good infirmary doctor.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: In the facility?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. Yeah. Doctor. Whitman, the facility doctor, he stayed right on top of me. I was going out at least once a week.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: For treatment? Yeah. So when you reentered

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: you were

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: released in '23. You said that you didn't have a primary care provider in the community at that point.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Right. I had I had my specialties. You know, like my cancer doctor, my heart doctor, but I didn't have a regular primary doctor.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And how old were you when you first went in? Because you shared with me, you're six 63, I think.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Right after I graduated, I

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: was 18. 18. So from 18 until 63, you've been struggling with

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. Alcohol. Yeah. I've been bouncing in and out. So right now, got a life sentence for DWI ritual.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: At 18, did you have some kind

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: of a job or family or anything?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I got a I got a career as a decent mechanic, fabricator. I got, I don't know, twenty years in Vermont, Mac and Boston. I got some collagen in my belt. My my life wasn't totally wasted.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Oh, no. You had you had a good you had a a reasonable start out of high school.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Diesel mechanics can make a lot of money, actually.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: A lot of

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you've been incarcerated off and on since you were 18. Yep. You've seen a lot of changes. I mean, would be in Vermont.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Got it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But you've seen a lot of changes in our facility. What really comes to mind in terms of changes that you've seen both good and bad? And you've also been out, I would assume you've also been out on furlough? For all that time you've been in and out of the facilities over that period of many years what strikes you that has changed good or bad in our facilities?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: What's changed? Me.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: That's a

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: What's changed in the jails is I know. Jersey. The food. The food has changed.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Better or worse?

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Better. Wow. That's

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that is

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I don't know. What does

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: it state about the same from what you've seen?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: The it's not really the same. The officers are stricter. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Back in the days, you old Woodstock, you know, used to get bottles of liquor into the mop bucket. He can't do that at all.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I can see that.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: And the worst, I think I think they messed up when they did away with the work for us.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yes. The work for us?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. The work crews.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The work crews.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you. Is that the work crews? Are you talking about work crews that left directly from the facilities? Yeah. Yeah, that was done away after the murder of the young woman in New Fane.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I was the first one to go out on a work crew in 1980 with Professor Owens

[Brian Minier (Member)]: at the

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Old St. Johnsbury Jail. And I I think there's too much wasted time in these jails. It's too much idle time. Mhmm. I mean, I don't plan on it, but if I ever go back to jail, I don't you know, 63. What am I gonna do? But all these kids that that are coming in, you know, All they do is try to run around thinking how they can hustle somebody. Yeah. You know? And I did that for a lot of years. And now I look back at it, and I see how much time I wasted that I could have done productive things. Maybe get back in school or whatever. Even though I graduated, I could have took something else, you know.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Think that's human nature from us as we get older. We trust Shawn and then we wanna also make sure we have time for you, Jane, too.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Gina, would you like, you know, other than school, what other suggestions would you make for things to do inside prison? Like, what would have worked if you could have waved the magic wand when you were

[Brian Minier (Member)]: a young guy? What would have

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: been good for you to be there doing

[Brian Minier (Member)]: other than the work crew?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I think, you know, I think what would have helped me a lot if I could have got into something like the wood shop or something like that. I wasn't the type of person that got all kinds of DRs and all that shit, But I never had the opportunity to do that. It was usually saved for the sex offenders. Or they yeah. But never got an opportunity of doing that. I think about alert. I'm talking back when I first started coming in. Yeah. I would have gave me a trade right there to start working on. But instead, the only trade I had was peanut butter to take it. Yep.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Gotcha. Thanks. Thank you for sharing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Other questions?

[Conor Casey (Member)]: You're on a state ballot?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yes. What state were

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: you in? Kentucky.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You are in Kentucky.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Kentucky and New Jersey.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Where in Jersey?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Malmouth?

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Malmouth.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Malmouth County?

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah. Mostly Kentucky and Pennsylvania. You did.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Michigan. I

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: went from Jersey to Kentucky.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I'm glad you got a better support system now, and I hope you stay sober.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I do. I you know, like I said, I I like I like it. I got a great sponsor. I got a great recovery coach. Good. I got a great feel. She's she's hard as a nail, but she's she's nice.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Technology is strong. She

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: doesn't doesn't ask is there anything I can do for you? No. I had a great re re reentry PO, but this is how things slide through the crack. He put me up for parole without doing it and never even gave me a parole pocket. You know? Need needless to say, the chairwoman on the parole board was not happy. But I do have a good feel.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I think the term point is, if the asunderrated

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It's got it's got a new new person running it, and she's doing really, really, really well. It's good to hear. You can see the feelings. You can see the feelings in it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You so much, Gina. I really appreciate you coming up with the colleagues at the time. Gina, you wanna come on up?

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Hey, Conor. Shall

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You guys figure it out. Not telling you what I to

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: got to

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: go listen to human services upstairs.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: So I'll be here for about five, but then I gotta fuck up. I apologize.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Welcome. So if you could identify yourself, Eugene, for the birthday.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: My name is Eugene Koeire. I'm 64.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're here for a conversation, and it will be good for you to, if you're willing, to share what your experience was when you weren't frustrated, what it was, how long you weren't incarcerated, what facilities you were in?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I've been in twice when I was like 20 for six months, and I get out. I'll put it this way, I'm going to say right out first, I was in for a little while I was child. That way, it's out there. Then I get out, I did a sex training program with somebody that wasn't a very good counselor, let's put it that way. All he thought of that was money. And we had difficult times getting with that guy. But anyway, I went through the program for like two years. Then I got out. I became a logger for like thirty years. About And thirteen years ago. I committed another l and l with a a boy. I walked into Saint Johnsbury Jail, and they shipped me to Newport. From Newport, they shipped me to Mississippi, and then every state in Mississippi I've been in. I've been in jail ten years. I've been out for sixteen months. I got a great job in Newport at an Eastside restaurant. Very good bosses. They're very good support. Mean, they're always asking me questions, how they can help, all of that kind of thing. Now, getting back out of prison. Had a case where it was at worst 2¢.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So what facility were you in when you were reentering?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I was in Newport.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You were in Newport. So you had been out of state prior to that?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Yeah, I was out of for nine no, I was out of state for about seven and a half years, because then I went to St. Olives for the sixth finger program there. And then they shipped me the newborn to get out.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Get out. Okay. So you came back into the Vermont system, what, about a year before your release date?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: No. Because I was 20 22 in Saint Albans.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's almost two years.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Yeah. And then I was, like, three months in Newport. Then I got out.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And what was your reentry like up there in Newport?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Well, put it this way, two months before I got out, was totally scared to death because I had nothing. I mean, no house, no food, no nothing. You know, that was my biggest thing. And so I kept putting application caseworker to talk with him. Finally, I did meet with him. He says I says, well, what can we do? He says, couple days before you get out, we'll put in applications and I'll have everything ready when you walk out. I said, okay. I walked out with nothing. But a month before I got out, a khosu lady came from Newport to see me in prison and asked if I would like to get into this khosu. I said, yeah. And I we talked a long quite a long time, and I explained to her how I felt about getting out and all that. Well, she says, I'll put you at ease. She says, the day you get out, we'll be sitting here, we'll pick you up. And I walked out in a sweat suit because they don't give you nothing. And they took me to I had a they have a house up in Newport, and I had I was in bed, so I had my roof over my head. They took me to food shelf, got me food, everything I needed, so at least I had food and roof over my head. But like I said, I had nothing when I came out. I had a good PO, helped me get my identification, my insurance guide, you know, all that stuff. And Coastal got me everything else I needed. I went weeks without no medications because, like I said, the facility doesn't do nothing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What did you have for medication?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Was it Well, I have an Allstate that really bad.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. So you have medical. Did you and did they give you a prescription for all the meds or any?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: What what they did was they gave me enough for, like, a week well, my cards, the cards I had while I was in there, they were like a week and a half left on them, and they gave me those, so I had enough to get me through. But it took me months to get into primary care.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you were released sixteen months ago?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Sixteen months ago, yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So that's We updated the law and I'm just trying to calculate when we did that because we wanted to make sure that when folks were released, they had up to twenty eight days of medication, medical for medication and a prescription would have been sent to their pharmacy. Well, I'm not so sure.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: It was '24, that would have been July 24, that would have been probably in that July 24.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: That's my guess. You are at least the fall twenty four? No, I would say '25. Improved '25. I got 12/08/2024 because

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: then last

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: year's yeah, that's true. Yes.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: So it's just that it's that last month.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we put that in effect. It came in effect July '24, but we wanted to make sure that was '24. I don't think it was '23.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I'm I'm gonna look it up.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That you should have left with up to a twenty eight day supply.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I mean, we should

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: have left, there should have been a prescription drug in to a pharmacy and the case worker would have needed to work to find a primary care provider for you. We may have done that.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Twenty eight days of blood was at, as of 2024, that was at 159 of '24. Twenty eight days of blood.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Twenty eight days of blood. Yeah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: You were supposed to get

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: Supposed to. A lot of things Did you have an ID?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: PO ended up getting me an ID. Like I said, my PO and my COSA got me everything.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Were sentenced or were you

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I was sentenced.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And how long had you served in there?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: About ten years down.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Ten years, so you

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: So should have

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I got to split the serve.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How long was it before you had that D?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: It wasn't long. Within a week, I got it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Did you have to submit any documents, or did the PO already

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: The PO took care of everything.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the the PO had all your documents. DOC had taken care of that while you were incarcerated and transferred the information to the PO to go down to the local DMV.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Of me with you know, just to get me by if I ever had to go somewhere or get picked up or whatever, that I would, you know, have identification of myself.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Only told that they would do that prior to won't be told that they were doing a lot of this prior to the release? Yeah. Is this what they They should have been there. And the medication, that's what's bothering her But you said you had a card and you had like a week and a half left on that card.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Well, are cards. While you're in prisons, most places they give you a card and just take them yourself. But Newport, they won't do it that way. You have to go up to

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the Endline.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Endline. Endline. Yeah. How

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: many different medications were you

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: the same

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I take one for prostate, one for cholesterol, one for stomach problems. And then I take an Anastram because I've got a genetic.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: You

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: take about five or six.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Yeah.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Thanks, Eugene. Could you give a snapshot of what the time in Mississippi was like compared to like the Vermont facilities? Talked to a guy a couple weeks ago. He was saying he preferred it, but maybe not for the right reasons, Like video game system, kind of chilled out environment, different staff culture, it sounds like. But yeah, whatever you wanna say about it.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Out of state is much better than in state, to be honest with you. But you said, I mean, I didn't get nothing into the game system because I all the persons I was in except for Newport, this when I come back, I always get a job. Mitchell had a job. I mean, and I worked in the kitchen everywhere seven days a week. So that way there, kept myself in check and busy. And library, that's two things that kept me going.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: It difficult keeping contact with family member or friends when you were in Mississippi? Are you interested in a telephone system in particular?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: As long as you had money and you had time on your books. I kept in touch with everybody.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Outdoor recreation down there?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: That was spotty. Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: How about food?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Food, like I said, I worked in the kitchen.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: 60 year old town that's gone.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I mean, I will say the kitchen staff down there are very nice people. Most of them just ladies and got along well.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Was recreation spotty? Essentially

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: One of those statutes here, going doing it. Oh. They weren't doing that. Yeah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Sorry. No, it's okay. Similar Was would have been similar in Mississippi than it is in Vermont?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Yeah, pretty close, yes. And I'll ask you

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: the same question I asked Ed. What was it like for you to save? What was it like for

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: you Well, to yes, when I walked out here, I had $7,000 on my books. Okay.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Were you just not spending it while you were in? No.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I didn't need. How many years did it take

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: you to accumulate $7?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Well, put this way. I mean, sometimes like when I went to Kentucky, I took and spent $800 on a TV and miscellaneous little things like that, fan, at different odds and ends. That put me in a whole stack. So I paid that off, and then I took in that accumulated money.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So how many total years were you incarcerated?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Was six months first time I was in, and then I was ten years.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So are you on furlough, probate, parole?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I'm on probation, yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: On probation, so you must have a split sentence. Split

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: to serve, yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You served everything now, you're on probation. And how long is your probation for?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Well, it's life.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: But my BO told me, like I'm in sex offender program right now told me, he says, when you complete that, he says three, four, five years down the road, we're comfortable with everything, then we'll go from there.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you're on a sex offender registry. Yeah.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Eugene, only what you're comfortable answering, but given the nature of your charge, did you feel like you were a target at all while incarcerated, either by other inmates or guards?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I'll put it this way. You were a low man on totem pole.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: mean, even we had guys in there kill their babies, beat them to death, and they put you down. Couple times, I turned around to Bennington, and I says, what's the difference? You know? I know I'm a bad person, but I'm trying to work through it.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah. And then, again, if you don't mind me asking, it's just like, how are you working through that? Are you seeing are you seeing a therapist or

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: you can help that? Or? Right now, like I said, I got such a big support group that went through my one year COSA. My COSA group didn't really wanna stop. We were you know, we got to know each other real well. So on the side now, once a month, we still get together and keep touch. And they're there to any I got their phone numbers. I can call at any minute, talk. I got a lot of friends like that. Like I said, my two bosses right now, like I said, right out of blue, they'll ask me questions how I'm doing. And I mean, what am I thinking, you know, so. See all those work.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Else?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: You. Appreciate your care.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I'll like I said, the only thing I didn't is it's not easy.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We've tried to make it easier. We've tried to make it more seamless. It seems like everybody's still following through the cracks. I didn't quite catch what you

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: said Eugene, you said, did you say it was easier working out of state, like you got more jobs?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Oh yeah, because the only place like Newport here won't even give me a job when I come here.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Is it just because

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: their jobs aren't available or do you know why that's different? Did you experience that same because a lot of people have said it's working out of state and it's harder to work in state, but I don't know why.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: When I took you in, come back.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Like Springfield, that's all I got in education.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: In Kentucky, had like a trained dog. Was that Kentucky?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We tried that for

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: a month.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There was some issues with that.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: But was there just more

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: work somehow in out of state?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: We were in Mississippi now, let's just say there, I mean, we were a small population to mom. They had like three, four other states there. And the other states were causing a lot of problems. So the honors had the majority of the jobs. When I come back, I got a job and said all of them, which was not a problem. I had a good boss in the kitchen. Matter of fact, he called Newport before I left there, recommended me to get work here. And I got up here, and she didn't want nothing to do with me. I'll take Newport. Yeah. And they were putting up they needed people to work.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: How much did you have to rank with the other populations from the other states when you were in Mississippi?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: A little bit. They tried mixing them in the kitchen with us, and it sorta didn't work out because they were bringing everything under the sun in. They were distributed through. Let's put it this way. They went through and ransacked that section they were in and picked up smartphones and 42 inmates. Two days later, went back in there, down 28 more phones.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And how was that coming in? How are the fobs coming in?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I will tell you this 90% of the stuff coming in is through CFs.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Through the staff?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Twice while I was there, all staffs got nailed for.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that's the out of state.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: It's a naive question. So the staff brings it in and you've got enough money to pay them to make it worth them taking that kind of a chance?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh yeah. Or drives.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: It this way. It's your phone. Mean, you may be able to get the phone at the time, like $304,100 dollars here. If you go to Grand, you have a phone.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: See, don't need telecommunications, That's why we need tell you. We need to you. You. That's get rid of you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Vermonters doing that as well, or was that more folks incarcerated from other states than all units?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: We were the the Carolina boys are the smallest population, which gave it the most problem. Then Mississippi coming there too. We had Wyoming and, Obviously, I don't remember which the other

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: one was.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But the Vermont folk, you were separated from that.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: All of them separated. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: were there also that type of exchange happening with some of our Vermont offenders there with staff?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I can't say for sure. I would be guessing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's fair.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Like I said, everybody get what they want in that money.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Another naive question. Does staff have to go through security to get into the facility?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Not sure if they do or not.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: To me like from our two testimonies they need to.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Personality security is part

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: of the deal.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Personality security is part of the deal. For example, if you're going through security to get in, what if the person who's on security is part of the exchange? They're part of the smuggling rank. Where there's

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: a will, there's a way.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: And people are Yeah, and if

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: we don't hold them accountable for when they

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: get then we've got a problem. Have we ever caught anybody?

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Have we ever gotten them accountable? It's questioned.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: I'm not saying There's that correctional officers all the time.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Sounds Yeah. Like it's been pretty loose with these two gentlemen.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Well, that was more in Mississippi. Right? Or is that Vermont?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Oh, that's out of state.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: That was out

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: of state. I said Mississippi.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: But that was more out of state. Vermont's a little tight.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: All facilities I've been in, everyone. You got money.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Out You what you need.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: You figure out of state, you got a lot of got a lot of civilian workers in there, like, see I forget the name of the food corporation. They they bring shit in. Right. You know? I mean, it's pretty tempting when somebody out and you get a thousand dollars for something that costs us a couple dollars out the street. Right. You know? Yep.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: It's hard not to.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But the Mississippi is a privately run It's not run by the state. A private company. It's very different than a state run facility.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: That brings another procedural question. How how does someone from the outside what, no, no, from some, somebody on the inside, how do they get $1,000 cash to give someone

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Some people are in jail that have got a lot of money. Believe it or not. Well, no,

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: can believe it. Their families and friends and that works.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah. Their wife, their their sister and brother.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: But isn't that contraband bringing cash in?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Not a fool. They they paid the the person that puts it in on the outside. I got you.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I got you.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: There you go.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Now called it. Now you've called.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: The person that's bringing it in gets his back.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I've seen a very, very, very little currency in jail in the past

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: ten, fifteen got

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Sure, drugs are part of that too. Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Back to my cameras.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, that's not gonna help because they made

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: the deal outside the facility. Right.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: The payment outside, but somebody's got to get it inside. Whoever got the phone or the drugs or whatever.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's a privately operating facility. Even the government wants, you're

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: going to have the same problem. And people do get caught. Mean, our investigations, people get caught. People get away with it too, just like on the street.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Everything else.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Like everything else. And you can have cameras, but again, the people who will bring it in, in theory, if they work there, they know where the blind spots are. They knew where the nonsense. You're still gonna have to run investigations just like on the street. You and I may not go down the

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: street and do something wrong, but there's also somebody who will.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There's maybe more training on a state run facility than a federally run facility.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Think the

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: way Springfield does

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: it is

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: when the SEALs are coming in for a protective tape they go through a security system. They're constantly going out for breaks. They come back in, I don't believe they go through security. They just walk right back in. You know.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Are there any drones to go over?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: There's a lot drone.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Mississippi, there is.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: We wanna fix it, we could.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: So hypothetically, if everybody, every inmate had a tablet and you didn't have to pay for your calls to the outside, would that cut down on this illicit use of smartphones?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Oh, yeah. That definitely would. I mean, it would change things. But the thing is, you say give somebody that, but you're gonna have going to have control over what they say because

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Okay. If they have their own phone, they can say whatever they want. That's true. Doesn't change that. And a person like me won't touch nothing like that. I mean, I just want too old fashioned. I don't want nothing to do with computer. Technology to me is

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It could be a chainsaw.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Pretty

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: helpful. Yeah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I think

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: both of you and colleagues as well. Wanna thank you all for coming up and for coming down. We appreciate it. It's really good sometimes for us. You know, we live in this little room during the winter. We work back home on the weekends, Mondays, and then we come up here on Tuesdays. We get a little isolated sometimes and have our own views of how it's operating or not operating. It's really good to hear from folks who have actually gone through it and still going through it. I mean, you're still under supervision. You're on probation, you're on parole. You have conditions to your probation, you have conditions to your parole. Yep. Connected to our field offices.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: You know, like I said, I've got a I've got a PO that's right to the groin and I like that.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I really do because I don't feel like don't feel like she's giving me enough rope to hang myself. You know, it's constantly there.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well you also have a recovery coach.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you also are working with the Community Justice Center and how has that been?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: No but I mean years ago from all my violations, it's the way I felt, I didn't have a good deal. Mhmm. You know, after going back to jail, I'd say, well, I'm gonna he just he just wanted me to

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: screw up. He

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: did it. You know?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Mhmm. So I'm gonna ask you both the question that hasn't been asked because you were incarcerated during times that we did not have earned time. Right. And then you were incarcerated during times we had earned time. Did you see, did you feel a difference? What, did that impact you at all?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Yeah, I mean, it took longer for me to get ill. This had a six year minimum. I had to go six years.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So knowing that you could receive some time off each month of your sentence did that help you or hinder you being frustrated?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: It didn't mean because I'll never see it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What do you mean you never see it?

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I got a life sentence.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But you got out a minimum.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Right that's already gone.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right and that was gone in December '24. Right? No. No, it was gone prior

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: to Yeah. So you

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: were in violations of the judiciary's Okay. And what about your situation?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I got three months of good time. And then laws were changed.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I could

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: no longer get it. Otherwise

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Did it help when you had it? Did it give you

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Oh, it felt good. It kept me right to the grindstone. He wants me to make sure I kept my job and kept my nose clean.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: If you didn't, you'd lose them.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So there's some incentive there

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: to behave

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: and abide by the rules, which then do you think by always being able to do that calm situations down in the correctional facility?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: It

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: did. Everybody talked about isn't it. If you screw up, you lose your good time.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: That a setup still depends on what your crime is?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, some of it is now.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: That's what's changed. That's why I couldn't get it.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: Know that when I visit, you know, everyone's always talking about they're always calculating a good time, so it seems like it's a real incentive. Incentive for what? To not get a major Doctor and not To behave, yeah. Yeah,

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: it calms everything down a lot.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I mean, that's good to know. That's really good information to hear.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And if you folks if the inmates, folks that are incarcerated, when you are incarcerated, for folks who are incarcerated, if they're calm, staff is calm?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Oh, yes. Even staff said it. Makes a big difference. The calm of the inmates are, the easier it is for them in there.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And let's say for the facilities,

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: like they

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: have a riot, somebody taking a message. There's management tools. That's one of the management tools.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: I just had a question. I've never asked you this, but some other people that have been incarcerated have complained that they felt like they were pushed into taking Suboxone and they didn't need to. Is that anything that you guys feel?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I've never took a drug in my life and three times staff tried to get me.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You didn't have any indication that you were a drug user? Nope. So were they doing why would they do that? Was that to sedate?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Money.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yes. Heard that many times.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: The more people on it, the more money, especially out of state. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, because you

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: were out of state, you were out of state. Were getting this, but were you getting that in state at all? Or was it just when you were out of state?

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: I've heard it from people that were in state but again

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I've never seen or heard of staff which you did not get in state But I've seen boys go pick out the runts. Yep. So they can get their view. Yep.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: So they're trying to

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: get other inmates on it so that then they can get fired or take it out Yeah. Of

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Oh yeah, this is a joke that that program should never have been cited. That's my opinion.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But you were experiencing that with money down in Mississippi?

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Five eighty news, yeah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I'm just curious, I have my timelines off, there have been multiple medical providers within the facilities. Do you feel like the doctors and the people providing the healthcare in the facilities are encouraging the use of JUEP and things like that.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I've dealt with Doctor. Miller, Doctor. Luneau for decades. And Lutland I think still has a private practice outside, but no one doesn't. No one's got a nickname. Doctor. Phil. You go in there and tell them what you wanna hear. Mean, I was never asked any questions. When I went in, I said I I wanted you to on Butte. Yeah. Okay. We'll start you off with this this milligram, and then you can work yourself up we're going to do bonds and that's it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So that would be a real question for the medical provider for that because we by law it's very very strict and there is medical evaluation that has to be medically necessary and it's by a medical professional doing the screening and assessment it's not based on someone just saying they want it So that's why I wonder how it's getting implemented outfield because that's not what's by law it's very structured. Right.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Which is what's concerned.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: We also have a testimony from Doctor. Rutlander and said they have no way of telling if eligible or not.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's what

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: he said, where do get a son?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But they were supposed to do a medical assessment. That's needs to be and there's a term there's a definition in terms of medically necessary. So that's what makes you wonder what's breaking down in terms of the documentation. It's all done in the medical world, and it's supposed to be done the same as it's done on the outside. There's breakdown somewhere in there.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I wanna I wanna praise COSA and all of them groups because if they weren't there, I don't know about that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Check the major systems.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Yeah. It's totally it's like I said, DLC is zero on a scale. Once you're out. Yeah, you're out the door, you're just

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's been an issue that we've really grappled with because DOC what's happened is a lot of our community providers, and I'm not saying CJCs, I think CJCs are filling the hole. But a lot of our community providers are not coming up to the plate to really help folks that are reentering corrections. Everybody assumes that corrections is going to take care of it. Corrections is not designed for that. Corrections is not designed for security and it's designed to monitor folks who are out in the community such as yourselves. And you're saying your PO really works with you directly as your PO does. That's what they're designed and our community partners. Could be housing, could be education, could be mental health treatment, could be the medical. They're not coming up to the plate.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: I mean, my POs even asked me, you know, things that I've never heard a PO ask me.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: Mhmm.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: You know, is there anything I could do for you in the housing department or anything I could do in the medical department? You know? It's like, serious? Sounds

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: like you got a good one. I do.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: I got a very good one too.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Comes down to the person who's doing the job. Whether they have integrity, whether they care. Mean Not the label, it's the person. Yep.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else? I wanna thank you for taking the time to come in. I know it's a different arena. It's really intimidating to be sitting in a meeting room and to be at the head of the table and everybody looking at you and asking questions.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

[Eugene Koeire (Witness)]: It's going to help anybody else get it now. That's the main reason I'm here.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And it will also help us in terms of legislation too.

[Molly Mahoney (Reentry Coordinator, Greater Falls Community Justice Center)]: You so much.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Very helpful. Thank you.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for tomorrow, we are scheduled take 10:10

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: thirty. Go back.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Don't know what else to do

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: in the morning. Okay, because

[Brian Minier (Member)]: it's not enough time to go to gym.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: No, the

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: rates fell down.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: 10:30, 09:11 thirty,

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: right? 10:30, correct?

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: this is the type of session that's really done

[Brian Minier (Member)]: settling. I

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: wonder if there's anyone who's interested, so we don't, I don't want to hang a phone, but anyone who's possibly interested in working on 193 to kind of help, maybe help direct Katie and myself in terms of how to work with Eric. Alright. If you're interested, I'll be here.

[Edmund "Ed" Martin (Witness)]: Eric, you mean the lawyer Eric or Eric

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: upstairs? Eric Fitzpatrick.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: We got a human services in? Maybe

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you both go on.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I'm trying

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: to figure out this. So let's go off of YouTube. We're done for the day. We are winding down next week.