Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Welcome folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is Thursday, April 23, and we're gonna be talking about Bennington Monument and sort of where we are in this whole issue of trying to take care of our monument, take care of our monument with the moisture issues. I believe we should work with this. And Laura, welcome for the senior of file here at the committee. You're welcome.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes, thank you. For the record, I'm Laura Treeshman. I'm a state historic preservation officer. What I have just passed out, I call like a roadmap of informed stewardship. So at the top, it gives you the analytical history of what we did from 2025 and the major critical failures that were identified briefly summarizing those, and then goes into project status with financials. So the first is the assessment and analysis, and that's what's analyzed up at the top. So that was already completed with our team of 15 national specialists. I think five of which are back under contract with us. The critical monitoring and site investigation that is a half $1,000,000 that we have, and that is from a congressionally directed spending from Senator Sanders' office that has been labeled the Save America's Treasure grant that is doing our seismic evaluation, our architectural investigations, temperature and humidity monitoring, tilt meters, crack monitors, and high rope safety inspections. We're meeting with the seismic team tomorrow. The monitors for the temperature tilt and cracking have all been installed, but I'm still waiting for the data to be analyzed. The archeology has been put out to an RFP, and we have two proposals we're refining right now. And the high rope safety happened last year, and it doesn't look like we needed it again just yet this year because each year we're getting less and less that is needing to be taken off the building or falls off the building. Immediate infrastructure situation we have is with the elevator. We had one of our national contractors come and look over the elevator, and he found a number of things that the general contractor that the state uses was not paying as close of attention as you should have for this resource, such as addressing the lubing and just some regular basic maintenance that an elevator from 1953 would require. It is the oldest elevator in the state, but for the record, I am not preserving it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: the elevator inspectors all find it really fascinating and terrific. They have, as I said, concerns about the lubrication. So they have recommended that we get an auto lube machine installed, which would not be very expensive, that we do a retention of the ropes inspection annually, and that we do some modernization of the mechanical work. Specifically the traveling cable at the bottom that helps the elevator go up and down and is likely the reason it has been stalling is frayed and cracked and broken. This is our safety issue. The cables are exposed. So every time the contractor Alpha shows up, they're just doing Band Aid repairs. And we don't wanna be running the elevator with band aid repairs. So from Lurch Bates, who is our national contractor, we are awaiting an estimate for the modernization of that traveling cable to have

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's not the auto loop.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That's not the what?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Auto loop. Auto loop. Auto loop, not the

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yeah, no, that's different.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Got it.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So this likely does the cables itself do not cost a lot of money, but it's the installation because they've got to go all the way from the bottom to the top of the tower. So I've always called it a building, but the elevator inspector kept calling it a tower, which put it into a better perspective for me. So I'm trying to use that word. That replacement will give us eight to ten year life, safe life. So I need to find out how much it is and then how quickly I can get those modernization specialists in to do it. So our plan is not to open the elevator this year until that is done. And I'm hoping it can be done this spring or summer. It also depends on how much it's gonna cost. The labor is going to be expensive. And of course, this traveling cable, despite being new, cannot stay there forever. So when we do a replacement of the elevator, it'll come with its own traveling cable. We'll get everything new then.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you're not sure how much it's going

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: to cost? No.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Where would you get the money?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Depends on how much it costs.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You have, it's about 100,000, it's a half 1,000,000.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: He would not say. He said the equipment itself is not very expensive. Like the auto lube machine, we know we need to do. He said that's only $150 and it would just take a couple hours to install. But the cables likely will not cost a lot of money, but it's the installation. And it would take a week. So that's a lot of man hours adding up in my head.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Probably not

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that much. Say a 100.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So I do have some options because we do have that federal money, the half $1,000,000. I can go to them and say, can I pivot and change some of this? We do have what I call defense money.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Did I understand you say that the contractor who was supposed to be maintaining it hasn't done it properly? Correct. So what are we doing about that?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We have a list of specialty items they should be taken care of, and we're trying to get a contract directly with them that's specific to those items. And if they can't or won't do it, then we're gonna put this out to bid. We likely will be moving to a bid all our own on the elevator rather than being on all state elevator contract.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So we don't have any recourse because they did a poor job. We're just gonna let them.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: BGS has been at all of our meetings to have the conversations and was at the meeting where we heard about all this. I don't know that, but we're still investigating it.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So BGS would be the one

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: to ask that question. Correct.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I will say right there. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Sorry, couldn't make it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Are you afraid we're gonna keep you down there? Mary?

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: So did we pay this company money to basically nothing? Yes.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And documentation of that, you're absolutely right, Mary. We have documentation of that and we're working with BGS to not pay those. The invoices that are outstanding and just shut this down.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I don't, but I hope so because we can

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: go through something else. We've already started talking with our commissioners and our general counsel to move to doing our own contract. And the Monuments location might give us some other options in other states because there's very few in

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Vermont. Know? And I Washington.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I wish we had kind of looked at that before,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Matt. But

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Look at what, Minier?

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Look at possible other folks from out of state. I mean, the best folks that can do it for the least amount of pause.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I will say that the gentleman from Lurch Bates, the company that we really trust and gave us this analysis used to work for Otis when he was much younger and he used to service the elevator. So he was very familiar with it, which I appreciate. The state elevator contract changes periodically with the vendor, and it's the same elevator company that service you here.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's where the fire was. Right.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So- That's that up badly, sorry. So that is the first and foremost immediate thing. I am waiting for that number. And as soon as I get that number, then I'm gonna figure out what pocket or where I have to get it from.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When do you think you will know? Will you know within the next three to four weeks? Yes.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And can you use the money that you're not going to pay this contractor for? Can you use any of that money towards? We would end up using some

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: of our major maintenance for it. Yes. Yes.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: But in fairness to these vendors, if I'm working on somebody's seven year old car in a shop and I'm only fixing what's broken when it leaves, it's still a seven year old car.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You know? Yes. Correct.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And you got something way past its useful lifespan

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: that we're trying to keep online. Right.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Which is why he When we talked to this gentleman from Lurch Bates, he kept saying, nineteen fifty three elevator is a reminder, and that it does need to be replaced in its entirety with an elevator that is made to adjust to the climate it's exposed to. If it's an indoor elevator, only in theory, it needs to be an outdoor system.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: But if you can't perform the work, you shouldn't be taking the contract to perform them, is the problem in my mind. So if we've been paying them to do routine maintenance and they haven't been doing that, you've got a problem there.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Oh yes, definitely. And we've had those conversations for a few months now with BGS, with Alpha, the elevator contract, and recognizing that they're just giving us band aids. It would work for a day and then it wouldn't. So when those prior

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: to the negotiations, when you were having those conversations, like last summer, were they very clear to the state, these are mandates? These aren't the molesque? No,

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: they were not. No. And we'd provided them a list from Lurch Bates of the very detailed things that should be done, including the regular lube and taking care of the various cables. But we were not able to get the contract updated because it's a statewide contract, which is why we now know we need to go off on our own. So that we have that flexibility to be updating things as needed.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you're allowed to go out on your own?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We will have to do a lot of paperwork, but, yes, I'm commissioner would be happy if we did.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. And that would be through through your division or your department or through

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Agency.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Troy CCD. Yeah.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So on the backside, if we follow the restoration perspective, we have phase one a that we've talked about a number of times, and that is the preparation. This is also where we would be using major maintenance and defense money for the half $1,000,000. And that provides us with the deliverable of the geotechnical engineering, the site safety designs, the enclosure system engineering, which is the this is the scaffolding and the enclosure to to dry it out. And then we would end up moving to five hundred to ten million dollars for the installation of that system. And that's where the funding that I know and have at the moment stops. So it would

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: be for the scaffolding and to begin drying it out? Correct.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I have put in a very large CDS request again, so we'll see. But what I wanted to point out is when we get to phase 1B, this is the actual drawing out and then doing the physical mock ups and the schematic designs for mechanical, the electrical, the structural improvements, once we've gotten it to a stable condition. As you've seen over the years, very dark pictures of it where it's wet or even frozen, to when you visited in September, it wasn't as dark because it wasn't as wet. So we need to get that to a stable situation, and that would be 2 to $2,400,000. And the significance of getting to phase 1B is because that allows us then to determine exactly where we are with what needs to be done. How we do the repointing, how we fix the over 6,000 cracks or do we fix them? Which ones do we fix? What kind of mechanical system gets installed? The removal of the electrical systems that have been in there since the twenties that don't work and were just abandoned. The monuments, a history of lighting on the interior that we don't need. So this gets us to the deep stone masonry restoration, the full scale replacement of an elevator and ensures public accessibility and safety. And that would include taking care of the stairs and also the windows that do not have screens. They open and it's a wonderful, fabulous breeze as you can look out, but they're open and that's a safety issue. So in addressing the $40,000,000 number that has been put around, As you've heard me say many times, that did not come from us and it didn't come from the documentation that our 15 specialists pulled together, but they did summarize based on their expertise and knowledge that restoration of comparable resources and what we were looking at in terms of the hydraulic stress, the structural damage, the climate, the mechanicals, and all of the legacy issues we've been dealing with. They did a comparison to the Statue Of Liberty pedestal, which is not as high, but is stone as well and is holding a great deal of weight. That was $40,000,000. And the Washington Monument over a number of campaigns from nineteen nineties to, I think, five years ago, maybe ten years ago from the earthquake that cumulatively was $40,000,000 So each of those campaigns were about fifteen, ten to address and to get them into the situation where they're not chasing issues, that they're proactive and they have this maintenance plan to take care of it.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Well, that's where I'm a little bit challenged by the discussions we've had about the Bennington Monument because I was the one that asked in the committee, where did we get this $40,000,000 figure? And I didn't hear you or Jamie necessarily saying that wasn't going to be the cost. And then it took on a whole other life of its own with folks hearing it out in the public and then commenting on it. And that's why I think it has snowballed into a mess. Yes. And, you know, that has been a concern for me, and no one could answer. But last time you and Jamie were here a month ago, five weeks ago, Jamie, I believe, said that there were analysis done that you had not really received the documentation on.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That's the monitor. Oh, yeah. So the estimates they gave us with numbers takes us to phase 1B. That's as far as their financial estimates went. Then based on what they knew of the structure and similar comparisons, that's where the 40,000,000 came from. But we never had any estimate, as Jamie was saying, to tell us what each element of the restoration from the 15,000,000 to the 40 would get us.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: But again, how 40,000,000 ever got out there without I'm someone who wants to see the spreadsheet of what adds up to Oh, yeah. Million dollars. And at that time, and Jamie could not provide that. It's this

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Because it doesn't exist at this point. And we just get to 1B and phase 1B will tell us how much things are gonna cost because it will define better what we need to do. The $40,000,000 estimate never should have been just thrown out there like this is what it's gonna take, because we just don't know that. It very well could, but we don't know.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right,

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: but that has been a real challenge.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Oh, absolutely, I've been chasing it ever since it came out.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Well, and even, like I said, the last time you were in, and I believe it was Jamie that said, they've done analysis, more or less have paid folks for the analysis, but we didn't have documentation. We have full reports. Now you do.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Oh, we've always had those reports, but they never had the financials beyond the 15,000,000.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: That's not what we were to fully total.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I'm sorry. I'm sure of that. That's what I've been trying to explain and trying to flip the way I'm saying it. It might sound different now, because I'm trying to make sure that people hear that we never had anything that took us to a $40,000,000 spreadsheet.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Right, well then where did we get the number in this? Maybe, and it was never denied by you late Jane.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We always said we didn't know what that added up to and what that work included, But we knew it was a comparable and it was coming from our contract group, our specialty team that said, when we look at comparables, the Washington Monument and these other resources, and knowing what needs to be done here, this is what you're likely looking at.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is a big ballpark figure, unfortunately. If you oldest. This is what it's actually. Right. Exactly. So we have to re take a step back and readjust our thinking. We don't know. Could be a size forty nine, but it may not be. It would be more. It may be. We just don't have enough of the information So at this right now, I'm trying to track the money. So in phase 1a, you've got secured state funds. Is it only half 1,000,000? Yes. And that half million will get you what? It will get you the geotechnical engineering, site safety design and enclosure system engineering? Correct. What is the 5 to 10,000,000 there? Is that what is that for? That for the preparation and installation of construction of the protective enclosure? Correct. Okay. So the half million will give us the scaffolding and beginning of the drying out process. Is that what that half million will get us?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: It will give the design of.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Will it also put up the scaffolding?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: No, that is the 5 to 10,000,000.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. So it's just the design. So when do you anticipate having that design, the scaffolding in the drawing now? When do you anticipate that being completed?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: To be honest, I'm waiting for the estimate on the elevator In case I have to use a good chunk of that money. How long is it? I'm expecting to get the estimate in a month, and then I can move those funds specific encumber them for that. And then the remaining I will put out for We're already talking with several of the engineers and the designers who've been working with us previously.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I'm trying to attract money. So the half million in phase one, the state secured funds, that is not the same half million from the federal grant or is it? No. Separate? Yes. So what I heard flipping back to the elevator and the new cable, the auto load mechanism, and then the expensive part of the cable, I guess, the labor. We don't know what it could cost, but you were anticipating take hoping to take some of that money from the 500,000 federal grant? It

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: depends on how much it is. Yeah, I can go to the Park Service and say, I would like to amend the scope.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the half million in phase 1A given state funds, is that coming from what we've done in the capital bill and the reallocation that we did last year at Orange? Correct. So if there's anything left over in half millions in the federal grant, you could combine that with the half million of the state funds? Yes. To get to what you need to know for putting up the scaffolding and the protective enclosure. Yes. Just does the design work for that. You

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: talked about a CDS, a large CDS request a moment ago. What can you explain that to us, what that is?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. I put in request through Senator Welch and Senator Sanders office, both of them asking for $10,000,000 to do the preparation and the construction of the protective enclosure. So that would be the scaffolding and the enclosure system to dry it out. It is well above their base number for historic preservation grants, but I have not heard, knock on wood, any grumblings since I did it a month ago.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you've asked the congressional down a bit.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. This is also a way to keep them very educated on the project. They

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: will say it, and I don't mean it as a negative, but I would have appreciated having that knowledge, you know, that things are being done in this regards to secure money because, you know, it's important for us to stay on top of it and we can be supportive of any way. So

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So when do you anticipate the design of the scaffolding and the enclosure system to be done? End of this end of this calendar year?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That is my hope. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So come next session, we would have better idea in terms of what cost

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: would be for at least the enclosure and possibly getting into phase one b. Correct. I would also know about the congressionally directed spending allocations. And I'm really hoping, praying, that the elevator will be up and running to start its eight to ten year account, and we can open. Being closed this year definitely took a hit financially for us.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Great.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Question.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Hi. Thanks for this information.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I have a question.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: So with the engineers and their the drying out process, and we get to the end of the drying out process, and we take the enclosure off, and you take the scaffolding down. Then what protects the stone from getting wet again?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So we dry it out, and then we will do testing to figure out the exact correct way to repair the cracks and repoint the mortar joints.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: You will do that during the drying out process. Will do

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that after that.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We will do mock ups as it starts to dry out, when we get to a good static dry.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Yep.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Because it needs to keep getting wet and dry as part of its process anyway, but not to the extreme it is now. So while the scaffolding and enclosure up, we will do those mock ups to identify the best way to do it. Then we will, once it's to that steady dry out point, we will start the repairs with the scaffolding up, likely the enclosure still up for safety reasons, and to ensure that the humidity stays as we need it. So we will start repointing. We will figure out the extent the cracks need to be repaired or not and make sure that any spalling is definitely addressed if there are any stones that do need to be replaced. So that would happen while the scaffolding's all up.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So would that happen at all during this summer or fall? Or is that gonna be next year? The repointing or

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That would be after phase one b.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So what you just talked about would not be happening this summer or fall. That would be happening next year.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: No, that would be happening years from now. I can I can take it to phase one b, I know would be if I had the 17,000,000 to construct the scaffolding and the enclosure, start drying it out with a new mechanical system being installed, and do the mock ups? Then we'll know how much it will cost and how long it will take to do the restoration.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So excuse me, Mary.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Just I I just want to hold on one second. Let me just follow through with this. Yeah. So is this based on engineers who have any familiarity with the Washington Monument?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Did they work as engineers on that project?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Some of them, yes.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: And this is how they got the Washington Monument fixed?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: This is the first time I'm hearing 17.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That's when you add everything up to one b.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I think there's

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There's a million. This

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: and that are two separate.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You think that's two separate numbers?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I'm not sure. No.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: That's not.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: No. One a. I just repeated it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. Gotcha. One

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: a is five to 10. So take the top as 10. One b is top as 2.4. 117

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Go to the back page. It's got 988,000. It's already been expended, and you get the 500,000.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So 12. But let's say 13,000,000. I like that better.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I understand 13,000,000. So you're just looking at are you doing that 13,000,000? Because there's 988,000

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: analysis. We've already spent that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. And then the half million.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: No, I'm not.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You're not including any of that.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That's probably where I was adding, though, because

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I That's where you're at.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: But that's what we have to be very cautious of in the future. Correct. Yes. I mean, because these numbers cannot keep being thrown out, and not as something to match it because that's where people start getting very upset about it.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Laura, is the drying out and the stabilization, is it a good assumption that that's going to require adding heating and ventilating and air conditioning equipment? Do we know how we're going to dry it out and stabilize it? Do you know what that process is?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: The drying out would be figured out in phase one a, the process for doing that and actually start doing it. And then the mechanical designs for that system to stabilize it is in phase one b. Do not know

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: We don't know. We don't have

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: an idea as to how that's gonna happen. Okay. No, we don't. We need

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: to get to the design stage. And any federal funding that I get cannot be used for design.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: This,

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I think, is related to Kevin's question. When you were speaking, you referred to, by layman's terms, I am not an engineer or builder, but does this stone, does this structure want to be within a certain range of humidity? Because my simplistic thinking was we want to get this as dry as possible and then keep it as dry as possible. And that's not true. There's some range

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: that It we should be needs a range. Yes. But right now it's at 600 and it should not be that high.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Right. That part I dug. Yeah.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: But it shouldn't be zero.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Right. And then you gotta keep it there. Do we know or is that also part of the study?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That It would be part of the engineering study. It would it would depend on the time of year, the weather conditions. So it would be a system that we would be able to monitor and adapt.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: So the optimal moisture range will vary with outside conditions. Correct.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Thanks.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: So are they still considering this shield to go over the monument? Because we discussed that they almost I don't know what material it was gonna be, but and I'm embarrassed to say this on tape, but they said it would be like a condom being put onto the monument. Because even one of the reporters asked me that question and said, I didn't use that, but that was described in here what it would be. Do you all remember that? It

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: would be the scaffolding against the monument, and then the scaffolding would be wrapped.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It would be wrapped outside the scaffolding. So you wouldn't see the scaffold? No. It will be wrapped. And

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: it could be a material like they use in Europe where they put images on it. Sometimes they will put the image of the resource they're covering on it. So it would look like a very large fat monument. But it it will be wrapped and it will have to have holes for some ventilation to it.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: So that's still being considered at least the

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That is the best way that the engineers have analyzed to dry it out. That it does need to be wrapped, and that enclosure system would be designed in phase one a.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Shawn? Is there any way so so you're

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: dealing with a group of engineers or some engineer who has had this experience? Yes. Is there any way to have them give testimony here to us?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yes. Have you entered into a contract with them or are you still negotiating?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I'm in contracts with a few of them. I don't have all of them on board that I want.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. That may be the dicey part because you're still negotiating contracts in that can't. When you're in negotiations, in a contract with it, you can't bring folks in to testify until the has been signed off.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We do have a really good one who's in charge of the seismic and has been on board the entire time, and he now is with his company was bought out and they're with Y. Lin, and he's really giving us, okay, we can do this or we can't do this. You need this type of engineer. You need this type of person. He would likely be the one that I would bring in. He's the one we brought in to talk to the commissioners and ACCD and the commissioner at BGS.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Kevin Winter:

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: that the monument has stood for as many years as it has, my perception is the goal is to dry it out and maintain the proper range of humidity within. Drying it out, I believe, will take some kind of an HVAC system and whether you enclose it or have proper airflow by maybe shutting some of the windows or whatever, you're still gonna need to maintain that atmosphere. So, it seems like we're doing a lot of testing for things we don't need to do. What we need to do is figure out how large of an HVAC system we need to have and how much enclosure is is required to to have that system operate proper. And then you know how much it's gonna cost not only to put the system in place, but then it's what it's gonna cost annually to maintain the environment. That's correct. That is phase one b, what you just described.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Yep. So

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: can I ask what kind of contractors you have specifying that system?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I don't have them on contract yet.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Who are you

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: working with? I'm not anywhere near phase 1B.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I think what's being said, why don't we do HVAC system right now? Why are we fooling around doing scaffolding and in case

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: because there are over 6,000 cracks in the stone, and the stone is too wet to fix and correct the mortar joints. And that's what the repairs that took place in 1990. The monument was too wet. The repairs didn't take hold, and that's what's falling off of it now.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Right, but whatever it takes to dry them out to the right humidity is going to be needed to maintain that. Correct. By definition, the only thing you can do, you're not gonna put a heater. No. You're gonna need an HVAC system to dry it out and to maintain it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Would be the first thing. So the question is why aren't we doing Why aren't we doing that? Because That's the question.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: To move that from phase one b to one a.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Why isn't that phase one that happened with phase b? Why aren't we automatically right now putting the HVAC system in there to dry it out? Regardless of what repairs need to be done, but or whatever, why aren't we looking at putting in an HVAC system now to dry it out?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Because it has too many cracks and holes in it.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So, I'm gonna use my analogy. If I invited someone in to air condition my house and I had no windows in it, they'd say, well, we can do it but you gotta put windows in and you gotta close those windows at least some of the time or whatever. They would tell me what I need to do to create the proper air conditions in my house. That's what I would recommend we do with the monument is we bring the people in who will maintain the proper atmosphere and have them tell us what that we'd need to do so that their machines can work. Because they would define what the most efficient size is and conditions are so they can meet the specification and that's what we need to do so that we can then fill the cracks or put the right why I think the cart before the horse is as Alice's proper I

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: hear and respect exactly what you're saying. And I think it's a it's a very valid question and I need to bring it back to the engineering team and say, can we move this forward? I I do know I will get the one response in that we need to make sure we have the stone engineers working side by side with the mechanical engineers. Because what has happened in the past is we've only had one engineer with a specialty, and they were overstepping and assuming. I mean, we did that with the elevator repair that we did a few years ago. This will solve all of our problems and it made it worse. So I don't want to pick just one specialty and fix it. I want to make sure that if we're moving something further up the queue, right, like the mechanical, I wanna make sure that I've got the stone engineers on board as well.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the mechanical would be the HVAC system, but you need to know how that would impact the stone if you go ahead and do that.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Right, and I don't wanna rely on a mechanical engineer to tell me how the stone's gonna react. I want the two of them to play well.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: They gotta work together? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I see your point.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Whatever you're gonna use to dry it out is probably gonna be the same thing to maintain it. So they have to work together at the beginning, otherwise

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I will go back and check and ask and Right. Yeah. Do know, as you've heard Jamie and myself say, this is not just one fix. It's a lot of things, and we need to make sure we're doing them together. But I hear what you're saying, and I respect that, and I will ask, but I need to make sure that I've got rest of the team on board. Yep.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: May I give you another analogy? To put an ice skating rink in New York City, the fellow side. The side. Say, We can do it, but you gotta do this and so, and you can only use it between November and January because the temperatures get too hot in New York City to maintain ice. But we can do it. Now, tell you what size refrigerating system is necessary to maintain that ice within those parameters. But we've got the same kind of situation here.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes, but I still need to make sure the stone is protected. That's part of what's been happening is the stone itself has not been properly protected and maintained forever. Right, I understand that. But that's the specification you give to the HVAC people. You say, This is

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: what I need. And then they tell you how big of a system you need.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Right, and I think that process was how it was planned out, but I see what you're saying is move the mechanical So chat that through, because I'm not an engineer.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And, oh, by the way, when they do that, then they can tell us how much it's gonna cost us to maintain it moving forward, which is the root cause to the problem, because we decided years ago to stop maintaining it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Or they made talisuses of the home. Exactly.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Right, exactly. No, that's That's, yeah, that one keeps me up.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we have a lot of questions.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Kevin, James, and Shawn. I

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: mean, yeah. Kevin, it's all right. Send your report. There are two questions, but I think they're small and contained. One is we know through that experience what happens when it gets too wet. Do we know what happens when it gets too dry? Or do we just

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: It would likely have the same

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Same thing.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yeah. That's why we need to find the sweet spot.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And then the other one is, do we think there's any world in which you have this sheath or whatever Morrissey or Bruce too to dry it out, is there any world in which we have an ongoing long term solution that doesn't require something like that? Is it always going to have to be encapsulated and closed to solve the long term?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: It would temporarily have scaffolding in an enclosure, and that would come down.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And would not likely be necessary for the long term solution to keep it within this optimal

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: range? No. No. What? Sorry to get into what mechanical drying out system do you put in there? Some folks think you do it in the get go so that you don't have to put up the scaffolding and maintain

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Yes, I know. But then you're still exposed to the outside elements while you have whatever's going on inside inside. And it sounds like we're

[Unidentified Committee Member]: not going

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: to be protecting it from the outside elements long term.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We would by repairing cracks and fixing mortar and making sure the stone from the inside out is at a good humidity.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's got to breathe. Right now you got so many gaps that it's not it just came here to breathe.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: It's absorbing all the humidity and it has no process right now by which to expel of it. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It just It's coming into the cracks, but it can't collapse. Not going out that way. It's going out through the stone.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Right. Because it was heated up until 1970 when we had the energy crisis.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: They didn't need an enclosure then. They just maintained the heat. Right, for a while. James,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm trying

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to think of wording this in a nice way. I feel like this might be out of baffles, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We all want this to be simple. And whether we wanna believe it or not, it's not a house, there's only a few ambulances in the world, whether it was dry in 1970, we don't need to know. What the condition was in 1950, we don't know. We know what it's like now. We have ideas that putting HVAC or anything else aside might help, But if you watch enough TV, watch enough experts on different things, whether it's building geology or anything else, you'll often find that what seems like a logical conclusion isn't. Watch a show on building and watch them do certain things and this is gonna make it last. Next thing you know, couple years later, the house is full of mold because they made it too airtime. Just as an example. So a lot of things that people think even in fields are gonna be easy on. So I would caution everybody to step back. And when you're so passionate and think we have the solution, guarantee you you don't. I'm not necessarily saying I'm happy with the progress either. But I'm not an expert. I don't know how to do this. I would not want to see it wrapped forever. But at the same time, we can't say with the answer that Brian just asked a question. Would we have to wrap it again in the future? You know what the answer is? The truth? We don't know. Let ourselves understand that we don't know. It's okay. The Romans didn't know where the Colosseum was gonna be. We don't know. And it's okay for us that we have to make a decision at some point. There's no doubt. We're not experts, and we should stop acting like we are. That's what I had to say.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Shawn, are you a D answer?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Absolutely not. However, speaking

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: for,

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I can only speak for the people I represent in Shelburne and St. George, and trying to be cognizant of their limited tax, you know, taxpayer dollars. I just feel that it's not thinking about it a couple of different ways is probably a good way to go. And you've been good about that, coming to us with different options, and but I do feel that we don't have enough information yet. I know that you're working with these engineers about what really, you know, what happened at the Washington Monument. I kind of feel like that is a really good example, and find more about how that process went, to understand the their what the engineers did for them, the process they went through. But I do hear when you know, what Kevin's getting at is that it seems like that would be a fairly inexpensive way to go is to see if the HVAC system, which eventually you're gonna put in, if you did put that in before and let that run for a little while and see how that works, that's a much smaller investment than the drying out process from the outside, which doesn't seem like and I understand we need to fix the stone and the mortar, but that stone and mortar is gonna get wet again after you take that that off. And I'm just wondering if we didn't use the because you said to us when we were there that your mortar has not fallen off as much as it did, that it's it's a lot better now. So maybe the the the products we've been using have been working better with the wet rock. So I'm just I I just I would hate to spend all this money to not really to maybe fix a problem that doesn't even exist. So I don't know if it's the mortar that they used thirty years ago that wasn't really good and didn't hold up, and maybe it's just we needed to use better mortar that was more flexible, which they have now. They have a lot of great epoxies that work really, really well. They're out in this this walkway right out here on the front of the highway, and those those epoxies really work well. But, anyway, I understand where Kevin's coming from, and I just we're just trying to when you're looking down the barrel of 17,000,000 and then that only gets us to wherever we're gonna get to, it's just hard you know, it's a lot of money. Yeah. We're just we're trying to be stewards of for being thrown at taxpayer money. So that's where we're pushing that.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: No. I understand and I appreciate that because it it keeps the conversations going. I do not anticipate to be using any state funds for any of this going forward. I am looking for grants, donations, federal dollars, and with your wishes, fundraising in the capital bill now. And we would do that in various campaigns of specific things. I also do not anticipate that we would do absolutely everything on the pick list because as we learn more about it, we know our process will be changing. And I think that's where we need to get that mechanical system identified and the drawing out working together so that we know where we go next and how much that costs. Understood. And the repairs that are falling off or have fallen off the building, in 1990, they repaired from the observatory up. So basically the green up to the top only, and that's what's coming off. And we have, for the past six years, have vertical access climbing up, removing all of that. And I know James told you it's been rooms full and now it's just buckets full. So I think we've removed it. I don't think it's working better because of the humidity of the stone. I think it's been removed.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: It hasn't been replaced?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No. Gotcha.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: No. And that's where we do need scaffolding or rappelling of some sort. I don't know if they can replace mortar with rappelling off of it, but figuring out how to fix it Is a challenge. It is. And I also don't have a lot of money to be spending on just designers and engineers to keep studying. I've already spent a lot of money on that. And we've got great history and stories of what's wrong with it and recommendations of our next steps. And that also has a time limit on it, right? Because the monument is continuing to live and change with each climate. So I'm hesitant to do more studies to get me where I need to go without knowing where I've got the money to fix it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thanks. So my rant made me think of something that we heard before. By the way, taxpayer dollars, that's a big issue. We all have a concern. We have to. So we're gonna be prudent. But I remember, I don't if it was Jamie, but I don't think we had other experts come in, so maybe it was him, about the complications of this. And one thing I remember for sure was said in this room was talking about heating from inside versus the outside and the expansion of rocks. I looked it up, like I still don't really understand exactly what I'm looking at, but there are issues with just heating according to the experts. And I remember, I think it was him who said this, that if you just heat it from the inside, there's issues with the way the rock expands, etcetera, etcetera. The details I'm not gonna get into because I'm not that guy, but we also have to try to remember that part. It isn't as simple, it's just, it just is.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And I think the elevator mechanicals that we put in a few years ago show that, right? We took out the way to raise the elevator up and replaced it with a computerized system, which brought heat into and the it didn't react well and caused more problems. And now we've got significant corroding because we did that. We didn't know.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: But you're not taking moisture out. You just put it in You've moisture got to get the moisture out of that. Exactly. You've to maintain an atmosphere, whether it's it can't be too dry, can't be too wet. That's why you give an HVAC That's exactly right. The requirements. And then they need to

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: tell you may what not enough of the of the system that we should

[Unidentified Committee Member]: be doing. They may not, but obviously the HVAC for a house and this are different. Can, again, you can go research it, you can read doc experts, whatever. But the granite, for example, expands in a different way than a house wall made out of two by sixes, right? It's different beyond our capacity necessarily for every one of us to understand. Maybe somebody in here is a geologist and I don't But you just have to keep that in mind that we want it to be easy, just not. It's limestone, right? Or even limestone too. Yes,

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: and there's a little bit of marble and there's a little bit of sandstone, it's limestone. And this reminds me that as part of what we're doing now with the monitoring is we are monitoring the temperature and that will inform the mechanical system engineers.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I just wanted to say so that there's not another number out there. Shawn, you said 17 in, whereas I heard Laura say 12 plus, know, food one section. I appreciate

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: where you're coming from.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: But I just don't want more numbers out there, so we've gotta be, you know, because that sets everyone off. I've heard of other plans people are talking about that could fix it. We've gotta let, hopefully, the experts, and hopefully, we've got the right ones to give us the final figures and a plan to go forward if we're going forward.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: The way industry works though is you can go to a company who would have the opportunity to profitably fix your problem and they will give you an estimate for free. Now, they may charge you to do the design work to get to the final work, but they will tell you upfront what they think they can do it for and what it'll cost to do it, to use the system in the future. That's the way industry can work. You don't necessarily need to pay for an estimate or do all this engineering at work upfront. I hear what you're saying. None of us are engineers in this area, but some of us have got engineering that I've seen working for years and years. So, we could go to someone who would have a final solution and ask them to tell us what they would need to do to fix the problem. You tell them what the problem is, and then they can give you a ballpark figure. They may charge us for the final design work, because it's unique. But I think you can get a free estimate from people who know how to provide HVAC.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: But I need to make sure that I've got the right engineers on board so that all the various pieces are working together so that everybody's informed and heading in the right direction.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I understand that. And that's

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: the stage you're at. That's where I am right now.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because you can call a company as they come in and give us an estimate and that may be the first time they've ever worked on a structure like this.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And that's also another challenge.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that's their best guess.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: That's why I wanted to talk to people who have done the Washington Monument because that's not their first rodeo.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And they are parts of our team. They have been from the start.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That's very legitimate about this.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And they're part of your team right now.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Some of them, yes. And I'm trying to get more. We were also trying to get Vermont contractors to be our lead, but we're not getting So emails we've got to move That is a unique item. It totally is. It took a year to get the 15 contractors identified with their specialties.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Mean, this is a one shot time to do this if we wanna do it.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes, because we've made the mistakes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You could spend $3,000,000 putting in a system right now and you wouldn't know if it would work. So you have to balance that then.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And quite honestly, with the money and capacity that I have, I have to balance all my other historic sites.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And we have four major projects going on right now. I tried to stagger the money coming in, but the projects are all happening at the same time.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We've got the monument, Constitution House, village, seal. Laurel? Yes.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And, darn boy, we were just awarded $867,000 of federal money, and we got a half million dollar donation.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh, cool. Nice.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Nice job.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I started twelve years ago, the thought was to sell it and I was like, okay, okay. And then I went and saw it and I was like, no.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Did I ask you? So in Bennington, you've got or the agency's commerce and community development has three meetings planned for the community. Understand that input from folks, but I'm almost wondering if it's the cart before the horse before we know what we're doing or the amount it's going to be in order to try to fundraise or do whatever, because a lot

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: of times settings like that will throw out more different information, and I'm concerned about that. Yes, I want the public input, but I'm afraid this may be a little bit before the cart before the horse. That is a wonderful observation, but we have hired a facilitator. So we have got someone that's keeping us reminding us how the community needs to hear things. We are not presenting an actual project. We are presenting the study that was undertaken and what was identified. We are talking about the challenges that we have and not how they could be fixed. Our goal is also to correct the $40,000,000 misunderstanding. Well,

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: and again, I would have appreciated these meetings around days that we're here in Montpelier. One's next week, so I'm going to have to drive down and drive back and then drive back down on Friday, and I'll do it. But you've got three members from Bennington that sit on institutions committee, Will and myself and Rob Plunkett downstairs, and we

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: were not told until we received. Last time, respectfully, the last time we were here, we said that there would be an in person meeting in April and a virtual one in May. And then in October, we would be coming back to present what we knew more of and to let people know what we were hearing from them. So another major element of the presentations is to say, we have these alternatives, and we're going to have a workshopping process where people get to tell us through the sticky, different colored dots. Full restoration, partial restoration, limited repairs, repurpose, like do nothing and get rid of it. Decommission it.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Well, as I've said before, plan on Battle of Bennington two should be one. Yes, we

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: just want to be able to know what Vermonters want, because this monument belongs to them as well. So we just need to hear that. But this is also not the first of, or the last of any meetings, should I

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: respectfully, for those of us, and I would just be there to listen anyway, I wanna hear what folks have to say, but I would have appreciated, and it's not about me, I would have appreciated being able to sit in that room with our constituents to hear what their thoughts are.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I appreciate that. Yes. I apologize for the scheduling.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I wasn't looking for

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: the technology, but It is being televised by the local televisions, and the second meeting in May is virtual.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And they'll probably still be here.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Well, the one the public meeting oh, that's the Zoom is on the twelfth.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: In May.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Right. What's the net what's the one that

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Next Next week on the twenty ninth. Twenty ninth is in person. It's Wednesday. Then there's one October, I believe, fourth.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: October is also a virtual meeting, and that is to to tell people what we're hearing, not to say this is the path we're going. Because one of the slides we're including is we're not the decision makers. I'm getting a lot of flack from the community, like, why aren't you fixing it? It's not my decision, it's my recommendation.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We gotta find the money to fix it. Find the

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: money and then the governor, the legislature. But that should have been a team effort because we know, I understand this doesn't happen tomorrow, But we should have had respectfully been included in being able to at least be before our folks, understanding and possibly being able to calm their, you know, concerns about the project. So I hear it all the time.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: People locally are just concerned because it's it's such a part of Bennington.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yeah. No. I totally understand.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: But not only that, it actually brings people into the state for tourism.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Mhmm.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And, you know, we've got a number of projects going on down there historically. The Willowsack Inn, they just did the old first church. The Everett Estate, which was a stone mansion that's being all refurbished, a multi gazillion dollar initiative that's going to be a game changer. You would like all of us looking to possibly be working hand in hand for the betterment of an area to help promote tourism back into our state.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But whatever. So you've heard a lot today, Laura. I hope it's been helpful in some ways. Yes. Yes. Conversations with folks, your contractors, thoughts. Would it be worth it to put in? Would it be advantageous to put in an HVAC system now to try to dry it out and you know put that question on the table to see what responses you get. Any other questions?

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And I apologize if I sound too bad from the development

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: project. It's fine. Anything else? Thank you, folks.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thank you.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Thanks very much. Thank for

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: putting up with the alarm and the evacuation. So so for folks, we are going to take lunch on the floor at one and then after the floor we get EDS coming in. And then we're going to have Katie McFlint come in to go over. She was going to put together a list of functions. We kind of bedded with her on S-one Hundred 93. So we're gonna go over that and help give her some direction in terms of what we're thinking so she can come back with some draft language this Thursday next week.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I've got a film on.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'll go upstairs. I'm pleased to get it. So we're done for now. We will get back to the floor. It'll be around 03:00.