Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: You're alive.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Hey, welcome, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is March 10, Tuesday, March 10. It's our first day back after our town meeting break. And we have with us folks who are gonna bring us up to speed in terms of where we are right now and design documents for the entryway for the State House for life and safety issues, and then what the proposal is for going forward. So we'll start with our Sergeant at Arms. And Agatha, why don't you come on up? Thank you. Introduce yourself for the record. And I know you've brought some folks with you, and I know BGS is here as well.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: Yes, thank you. Agatha Kessler, Sergeant at Arms. Nice to see everybody. And we have a team here to support this testimony today. We're

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: going

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: to co present. We'll do our best to switch in and out of the seat. But I'm joined today by It would be okay to introduce ourselves.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Sure. Galf Watson, commissioner of buildings and general services.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Joe Luneau, director of design and construction, building and general services. Cole Barney with BGS.

[David Sheets (State Curator, BGS)]: David Sheets, State Curator with BGS.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Shawn Brennan, Architects and Defense Unit.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: And we have Scott Moore from JFO for any questions. He supports Joint Fiscal Office and Sergeant at Arms Office and the legislature. So you did get an overview of this project earlier in January, as the chair said. And the goal of today is to give you access to the experts that have been working on this project, specifically Shawn Brennan with Freeman French Freeman, the architectural firm that's been working on this, to ask the questions that we couldn't provide answers to during the overview. So we'll start with It's a 1,300,000 capital bill request. We did make this submission as part of the regular submission process in the fall. It was not incorporated into the capital bill, but the project is an $18,600,000 project. And because this is a question we get quite a bit is how long would this project take? And nicest answer, I think, or the easiest answer is if we kept on track, on the track that we're already on, on the track that we've been in now for a couple of years in terms of design, the 2,030 session is when the doors would open or would open. And this is what the front doors would look like. This is exactly the same image that you saw in January. At this point, I'm gonna turn it over to BGS to talk about the schedule and the budget. So switch seats. So, before you do that, do you we have put in

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: previous dollars into this. So, could would it be you, Agatha, or is it BGS to go through the previous dollars and then what's left of that?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Joe will actually, he's got two slides that talk about the finances, what he's already put in, working with the sergeant at arms, looking at the project cost over the phase period that she referenced to 2030. These are the estimates on the cash flow to keep it moving forward.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay, got Got it. Joe.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Joe, you may have to go to your last slide, even though you start with this one.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Yeah, it might

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: be good to go to the last one.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Good afternoon. For the record, Joe Luneau, director for design and construction with BGS. So this slide in front of you here has, multiple things going on, where we're at, we're scheduling, funding, the sessions for the legislature, all wrapped up beautifully into one convoluted slide. So if we start at the top and work our way down, we're looking at a design of twenty four months. Now we've already been in that design process. When this was a point in time taken, it was back in November, where you can see in the fourth row, fifth row down, where it starts with schematic design, you get into the teal colored rectangle that says design development. So we're now of course still in design development as we speak, And we are working our way towards completing design development if all the stars align. Once we complete design development, then we do move into construction documents.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you wouldn't go out to bid until you get the construction documents done.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: That is correct.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So at this stage of

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the game for the committee, I mean, schematic design lays out the broad design in terms of the broad thinking of what could happen. Once you get into design development, then you refine that schematic design. And then the construction documents really solidify the design of the addition or the changes. So right now we're in a stage that you could make some adjustments to the design in terms of the entryway or life safety issues. Yes, correct. I just want to put that out there for the committee, because you haven't really worked through these design documents too much in terms of knowing where we can have an impact, where we can say this is going in a direction that we like. This is going in a direction that we don't like, and we'd like to see these changes on the design documents.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Further on in the slide deck, you will see floor plans indicating boxes that have been indicated by Freeman French Freeman going, this is what the plan is to date. To be adding an extension of the East Wing, it's not really something that we would want to undertake at this point, because you'd be going backwards of having to strike that process design all over again. But that's where we're at. So when we're working down through this slide, you'll see the light green band down from the top that is calendar years going through. And the purple line is fiscal years. So we laid this out dollar wise to request funds to do a pay as you go. So basically, we're here requesting funds for the next fiscal year. And as Sergeant Arms stated, the request was 1,300,000.0. It did not make it into the capital bill. But that was going to be for us to complete construction documents and start the bidding process.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the 1,300,000.0 that is being requested would get us through construction documents and get us out to bid and through the bidding process.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So then if we do do the 1.3, then the next step for next session would be to find money to actually do the construction. Yes. Questions of the committee? Because this is all new to folks. Not

[Unidentified Committee Member]: sure who in the room I'm looking for. So, this wasn't in the capital bill. It's $1,300,000 I guess the question is, does the administration support this project? And if we approve this, would we anticipate this money being funded in future capital bills?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Sure. Wanda Minier for the record. I think that based on all of the demands of the capital bill, it was not recommended to move forward in this year's because it's a capital bill adjustment and all of the other commitments to other projects.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay, thanks. So this is new for the capital bill. It was not in the governor's recommended budget adjustment. And it would be up to this committee to make a decision. Do we find some money to continue this project or not? And do we find the money, but maybe not all of it, so that it doesn't go out in the timeline so that at the end of f y twenty seven, which is a year from this May, we would go out to bid. That's the plan. Commissioner. So, madam chair, just for a moment, I feel like, oh, these Ethan Allen. Apologize. I mean, in a certain way, You

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: made a statement and then you opened it up for questions. I think it's really important for the committee to know that this is a cash flow estimate on how we would spend to move into those fiscal years. If you choose to make the investment of the 1.3 and you look at the blocks with the financial and we go to construction documents, just need to say that you are really making a larger commitment in future capital build years. And you started saying that then we went to questions. So I just wanted to emphasize that. And so you'll see the demands as you're looking at your capital bill on the out years. It's also important and I'm going to ask that maybe Shawn Brennan, the architect, talk about this. These are project costs based on estimates. Please remember that committee because it's really important. He's put some inflation into that, but you know as very well in this committee as you adjust, refine, refine drawings, their project estimates. That's really, really important. And when you take it out further,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the estimated costs will more likely go up, not down. So, at this point, it is estimated to be approximately 18 plus million, 18,600,000.0 in today's dollars. So it's fair to say it could reach 20,000,000 pretty easily, if not more.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: You may want to have I'll let you call on the architect if you want that clarified.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You wanna weigh in, Shawn? Is it Shawn?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yes. So if you could just identify yourself, Shawn

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Brennan, architect with Freedom Front Training. So yes, the estimate was done off the schematic design drawings and were designed and developed now. So it did have a healthy contingency put out because we did not have all the information available as Commissioner Maroli stated. Each phase of the design will get more information which will make our estimates more exact. So at the early stage we have a healthy contingency but again we do not have a contractor or a construction manager on board yet. We do not know exactly what the timeline of construction is, so there are a lot of assumptions in there. So we've made some assumptions for escalation for a couple of years worth of escalation and for that contingency. So we do have built in cost elements there to account for that. Things can change as we move forward as Commissioner was saying.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Like material costs could go up. Absolutely. Kevin.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So what is the contingency that's built in right now?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Have 20%? We have about 20%.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: How much of a challenge is it gonna be for a construction company to take four or five months off twice during the project.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's why your costs go up.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Yes. This is a phased project. If there's a way to do it without phasing, of course, cost will go down. But it's something logistically that we do with a lot on construction projects, hospital work, things like that. We do it all the time. University work, same thing.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Okay, so that's not an enormous hurdle then? It's not. Okay. So this the commercial the commercial world can adjust to this. Okay. Correct. And then I guess my my other question would be to you, Joe. Like, don't you think there could they could still do things during while we're here, or do you think they just couldn't

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: just into the design itself. And then I see what

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: You I know? It it's hard to say without having a contractor here. Yeah. There may be some things to keep, noise and access are the two biggest things that we've to contend with. So that is a major access point and exit point. So that's one of those things you have to take into account. There's a set of stairs that goes up to the mezzanine. So if you're gonna open up that thoroughfare going from west to east, all of a sudden, how do you get to the mezzanine? Because

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: again, you

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: took out the stairs, that main entry point may not be there. That's an accessible form. So that's some of the stuff we still would have to work out with a construction manager. So with this funding, we bring the Centimeters on board at that time. So that bidding phase is not for the construction manager, but that is actually to start the construction process. So we need a construction manager on board for those because of the startup and the shutdown. They will take into account that, okay, there will be a shutdown period. And so once everybody's bidding on the same thing and understand that, that works. Do you always get the same crew back? No. But you get the same You got the same subs and everything else back in line so that they're ready to go as soon as you start or you leave. That's what we would be aiming for. If there was an opportunity to continue construction while you're still here, fine. But the other thing you gotta weigh in that may be at a greater expense, in time. So that's why we need a construction manager on board to evaluate that and then give us that feedback. And that's how we will get it out. But that is the plan that I have before you is cut down during the legislative session. Because that one is hard to shut that down and send contractors away and subs away. So that's what we're pointing out for. Since I'm trying to say that we could make this work and realize in the end it can't work. And the funding also goes along through that. So, looking at construction for the twenty one months, that includes that shutdown. And it's also about that funding during that point in time. If you were to expand sorry, it, not expand, but shorten the construction because we did work during the legislative session, then the ask would be different also. How much? I don't know without having that Centimeters on board. But that is really that sort of that center band that you're seeing construction in the twenty one months, and how we shut down for the lowest set of session, then come back in and go. And the hard part here, sort of like with the air handling project, we'll give a contractor a start date, and they'll be starting that date for the year and all, or there could be delays. So that's really the gamble. Again, working with a construction manager in advance going, this is the date they're supposed to be out of here. How do you start that ramp up work that if we are delayed, the impact is not that great. But that's all behind the scenes and everything we put together. So as you work your way down through this year, there's also in larger bubbles, the fiscal years that we'll be looking for the funding. And that's 1,300,000.0 was the ask for this year. And then laying that out was 5,000,000 in FY twenty eight, 9,000,000 in FY twenty nine because that's when we expect that large portion of the invoices to be in place and the construction work being done. And then also finishing up in FY30. And again, the FY30 is some construction, but mainly paying off bills of the warranty period in there. And then we feel nice that we can take that. And that's why that is a lesser dollar.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So right now, you have funding to date, about 870,000.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Sorry,

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: we're going take you to the last slide. Before

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you go there, go back where you were. So the 870,000 you currently have funding to date, design and permitting. So you have 870,000 plus right now. How far will that get you into design documents without the 1,300,000.0?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: That's the 800,000 is what was appropriated. We don't have that. That's why I think we go to the last side to see what we have and

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: we can answer that question.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay, it was appropriated, but you don't have it.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: We've spent, we've been spending it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You've been spending it. So it's less than $8.70 right now.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: That was what was identified for the project.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Okay. I think we go to the last one.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'll go to the council.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: I say represent them as a committee. Way that purple band on top was designed is to show you also where in the design process we would need that money.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Where you would need the 1.3? So what you've got in hand right now would get you through design development and part of construction documents? Where how far would that get you? What you have in hand right now how far is that going to get you? Design development?

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Design development.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But it won't get you to construction documents?

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: No, will not. The prep is there, but it will not start the greater part of it. Will get into the laws.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: And Madam Chair, the 1.3 includes the remaining it's 1.3 plus the remaining funds to get us through construction documents.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. So I'm just trying to figure out the flow here of dollars. So what you have in place, what you have in hand right now will get you completely through the design development stage, and can get you started a little bit in construction documents, possibly, but you need the 1,300,000.0 to really do the construction documents.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: That is correct. And

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you're anticipating finishing the design documents by the end of this summer. That could then get you into the construction documents that would take us from this fall until March. So there'd be another legislative session next year. Just trying to get the committee to understand the flow of the documents to help understand the flow of the money. Now we haven't said yes or no, that we're going to go forward with this project. Right? Right. Yeah. Because the world has kind of changed in the last few years.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: Do you want to jump to that last slide to see the okay, let me go there.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: So what we have here in front of you is the appropriations and what we're looking at is we started with using ARPA funding. That was our first year out of the gate. And the ARPA funds that were not obligated by December and I think of '24, reduced us to $696,966 That's where we're at. We have remaining funds encumbered at 52,000. And by the March, I will have extended the $401,445 That is working with Freeman French Freeman and their billing and everything else. So that'll get us there. We have a balance of ARPA funds of $243,887 And those funds will expire on 12/31/2026. If you don't spend them. That is correct. Thank you, sir. We do have the authority to spend them and that would go towards that area of starting construction documents. If we can get those in place because there's still some funds, but we've got to make our last payment on the thirty first. I say that I'm sure our finances will want to be for that, but that's what we'd be looking at for using the ARPA funds. I forget the exact year of the ARPA funding, the following year, in FY24, we asked for an additional $150,000 in cash fund. And the reason for the cash funds, ARPA funds were very narrow of where you could spend it on. And this was looking at some additional life safety things, accessibility and likes of that. So we have encumbered $500 of the FY24 cash funds. We have expended $46,304 and have remaining of $103,196 Those funds are in '24, they don't get repoed yet. So, are those funds still remaining that could also help this project continue at this point in time. There was additional bond funds that we used out of our planning money and that was very similar to the cash of 150. And that was for, we looked at sprinkler system, do a code analysis. Those were not covered at the time by RFA funds. We were moving forward with that in the early planning process with Freedom of Information. So that's why we use the planning funds to cover that phase in that book. So those funds have been expended. So that leaves us with $346,643

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: through the design documents.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: It will not get us through construction documents. It will start it, but only for basically September to December. So it's a very narrow window.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the other piece, if we decide not to go forward with this, we lose that 243,000 it could be diverted elsewhere. It would have to stay with this project.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: So did my end and Joan and I have worked on this. My understanding, the the extensions have expired. So we either have to spend it on this project and it has to be a legitimate project or the dollars will expire. We do not have the opportunity. I think in previous years you had the opportunity to be allocated within the projects. With our understanding 12/31/2017, oh my gosh, 2026, we will not have that. So if this project does not get funded, think there'll have to be an evaluation of how do we proceed and where do we close out the books on that. The 103,000 we have flexibility with, as you all know, committee, since you appropriated it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So if if the 346,000 can get us through design documents,

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Joe say

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: It will not, because of the flow that we have.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: I think there's a nomenclature. It'll get through design development document.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yes. Not to construction. A little maybe. So if we got through design development, if we got that far and put a hold on the project going forward for construction, how if, say, in three years we wanted to pursue reentry project. The design development dockets would be in place. Would they still be valid three years down the road?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Yes, they would. We would have to look at them again just to make sure any code updates are incorporated.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: But

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: yes, the design would still be valid.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Do you see where I'm going? What I asked? Yeah. So we don't lose the money. Can we at least get through the design development documents that are in place that could be used maybe three years hence when there may be more money available to do the redesign of the entryway. Not commit to construction, not commit to the construction documents, not commit to going out to feed. Just putting some thoughts on the tape.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: What are you? Kevin. I love what we see. I'm not against it. Hear that. What other alternatives have we looked at at this stage? If we just looked at functionality as opposed to this beautiful design that we have. If we looked at that, and if you already showed me and I forgot.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: I think the sergeant at Orange, she talked about. So this project has been underway for probably two years. It started with lots things that we cannot afford. It started with, so to answer your question, yes, we've looked at lots of alternatives. And what we're presenting is the bare minimum of what we need to increase our security program and to enhance ADA access to building.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay. So yes. I had to ask that question. Other

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: questions at this point before we get into actually seeing the proposed design? Okay. So, Shawn. Shawn, it's your turn for the hot seat that's warmed up for you.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: It's plenty on the camera.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: Thanks, Shawn.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I'll talk to the

[Unidentified Committee Member]: engineers about that. Yeah, HVAC

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: work going on?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: A little bit. It's been going a little while.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Freeman French Freeman has worked with us in many capacities over different projects. They've worked with us a lot here in the State House with our HVAC system and any design. They also were a very important partner when we rebuilt the Waterbury Complex after Irene. So we've worked really hard with Freeman French Freeman. We really appreciate the work that your company has done for us.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity. And yes, we are working on the HVAC project here. And part of that is integrating these two projects if this moves ahead. So we are cognizant of that and are working such that we are not duplicating efforts if we're going forward with this. So I just wanted to put that out there because efficiency is key to us as well. So I'll just say it again, I'm Shawn Brennan with French Freeman, and I'm here to talk about the design of the project. As you can see, the new areas are the colored areas in the FLF and the connection through the courtyard currently.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So could you orient the committee because we had new members to the building in general. Just orient the committee to what floor you're on and where some of the committee rooms are, where the entry hallway, that type of thing.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: The main entry and the main steps off of the plaza facing State Street is in this zone right here. Sergeant in Arms' office is right there. So as you come back, there's the Lincoln Corridor straight back. And so the Supreme Court, originally the Supreme Court building the annex is off to the left right here.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's the lounge.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: And the new, and this is the courtyard that currently separates the back edition from the State House proper. And so the purpose of this work is to try to create a screening area for health and safety and orient visitors and create direct circulation. We're trying to put as many things in one basket as we can. So part of what this is doing is creating the screening area here, but also creating the link that takes you directly to the Lincoln Corridor rather than having to go through back area or visiting. Because if we create a screening area without creating a link, which we can do, you're creating a real bottleneck in circulation. That's what we discovered as we were going through the project. Obviously, you walk through there every day, you know how congested it can be. But imagine having the normal congestion and then tour groups coming through at the same time.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the link is that white corridor, right?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Correct. So this is currently outside. You have a bridge above right here and a bridge above right here currently that exist. They take you to the cafeteria or the speakers of the house.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you'd fill in the courtyard, the hallway. Correct. And

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: so that serves a function that if you do have groups that come in, they'll be screened and can enter, Then they can come down here and organize in this atrium space before they enter the State House. There's less congestion and noise outside the functioning areas of the State House.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: That piece about collecting in the atrium and organizing yourself before you enter the building is so important for anyone using house appropriations in Room 9, anyone in Room 10, anyone in Room 11, anyone in senate judiciary, when there are 50 people in the lobby, nobody can do any work. It is extraordinarily loud. And so I just wanted to put a use case on this importance of groups being able to collect themselves before they come into the building.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're saying with this addition, so for a lot of members, Room 10, Room 11, and Room 9, were not committee rooms. Room 9 was the Co Op Room where appropriations is now was the Co Op Room. And Rooms 10 And 11 were the meeting rooms. So there was the noise was not quite as much, particularly now that you have committee room in Room 9, but you've displaced the hope, which is no longer in the center of activity. So with this, we're saying that Room 9 would be a permanent committee. This design. Is that what we're saying?

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: I would say nothing's permanent here in the State House, but it is the biggest space for the committee that brings in a lot of witnesses. And so that would be a decision for joint rules to make. And so I don't think it would be accurate to say it's permanent but also I don't know of any plans of moving appropriations out of Room 9. There is no other place to put them at this point.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So when the folks are coming in the entry and screened area, where would the coat room be?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Same

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: spot that it And comes then the hoteling room, which is beyond the courtroom where you have, if you go to the right, you have the IT room, and then you have the hoteling led staff that would stay? Yes. What about the restroom? Would that stay as well? The current restroom that's there?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Correct. The areas you see in gray remain as is, and then the restroom would be renovated as part of this project. The restroom shown in blue on the left has a WC auto closet as its renovation.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So that would be renovated? Would be renovated.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: In what way? New finishes and make sure that it complies with code.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But that's brand new. Just a few years,

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: so why would it have to be renovated?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: So that it would go with the look of the new entry for the public. So that it's cohesive.

[Speaker 0]: Just nomenclature. Hoteling is what, like hot desking, whoever needs one.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: With Let's Council, what happened, Let's Council used to be in the mezzanine. They got moved down here. So for Council, lawyers, sometimes instead of running back and forth, there are desks with computers in that room that they can use.

[Speaker 0]: So strictly for alleged counsel, but whoever needs one from them. Okay.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Joe?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Project, if actualized, how does that impact the parking in this area that exists now and the trucking ingress, egress?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: So those are two good questions. We have a very constrained site at this location, as you all know. And if we're funneling everyone through there now for screening for various reasons, but that means no one's coming through these other areas, partly because there's no ADA access on those other areas as well. So try to create equality for the entry experience for everyone and security, it dovetails into one site. So that indicates this location for grade reasons, that's why we're working there. But to your point, we still have to separate out traffic flows. So we have deliveries. Currently it goes to one space. What we're doing with this design is saying we're separating those, knowing it still has to be in the same zone, but they're different locations. So deliveries would be up here that direct in a back corridor back to the elevator for the cafeteria. The public would enter through the screening area over here. So while they're in the same location on the site, they don't intermix. So that's the key for us is we want to make sure we have that separation. The legislators would still be able to access from the east entrance. We'd create a secure entry over there. So we're further separating the traffic flows so that we have a public, a delivery, and then the private for the members.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for that fire exit and service entrance, security and entry screening, are you going to have to do any blasting to make that piece wider?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: We've designed it in such a way, as you can see, it's a little bit angled, to minimize any amount of doing. It may not have to be blasting. It might even be backhoe jackhammered to avoid blasting. So that's our goal is to do

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the Back. Minimum A little bit.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: But not as much as, say, this area in the back here that was all blasted for the stairs and the elevator back in the day.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And where was the handicap parking? I

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: can talk about parking a little bit. So that the C Lot we call it, where it's right out there where a lot of our legislators park would go away. The entry would take that space and a new walkway, we have a slide that shows that. So handicap parking would have to shift to the east side of the building and we would have to be using the lot behind Pink Lady for ADA parking. So this would have an effect on parking in terms of, we try to have it so that people with mobility issues are parking closest to the building, but also legislators in a leadership role or staff in a leadership role get close parking, probably that will have to change in this new scheme where priority will be placed on mobility issues and accessibility for the spots that are closest to the building. And the east side of the building has the most amount of spots closely located to the entrance or to the doorways. But we're going

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: to lose some parking spaces out here.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: We will. But those parking spaces are currently used only by legislators. Members of the public are not parking anywhere close to the building. The only options that members of the public have, it requires a lot of coordination with Capitol Police and the Sergeant at Arms Office to get parking for true visitors to the State House that need accessible parking because the two accessible spots that are available to them are the ones right in front of the Pink Lady, and if you look out your window, they're combed off because the icicles fall. So I actually, I think it's fair to say that under this new plan, for visitors, ADA parking for visitors may actually be enhanced through this. Where would they park? They'd be parking where the pink lady is, behind the pink lady.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: And we're trying to come up with a way to save the two spots beside the pink lady and make it so they're not in the drop zone for the So snow and the site plan is sketchy right now because the engineers have a layout that they've drafted that we've given them feedback that they haven't caught up to yet. So I sketched over it and said, these are some ideas that we want to explore further. So when we look at that plan, you'll see my red lines that I put on there and we can explain some of the thinking there.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Agatha, aren't there only like five or six There's like five or six And spots over

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: then you got two

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: but I mean, that's not

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But with parking being so tight and losing six or seven spots is big.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Having them go further out behind the king's lathe makes it more difficult.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It makes it worse with handicap. Wanda?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Wanda Manoli. Thank you, madam chair. It's really important for at this time with parking that we continue working through the process. The Montpelier Complex parking is assigned to all of the Montpelier Complex parking. During the legislative session, we swap back and forth and we give up parking for state employees and for other customer services and we assign those to the sergeant at Orange. So we can't look at the parking just isolated to the state house. I just need to say this to the We have to look at it very holistically because the other projects that is on the horizon is what does the future of the Capital Complex look like regarding the flooding and everything so while we're looking at it and we know we have to identify spaces and needs for this we have to, from BGS, we will be looking at it, much larger and how that

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: impacts. And that would be parking is one of those issues that we have not, we don't have plans as part of the design development. It's part of our future planning process. It was not part of design, knowing that that's gonna be a big issue. Big issue. Parking's a big issue.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because if you come in here off session, every space is full. So everyone's getting displaced when we come in. Joe?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I have no animus towards the paint lady, nor do I know its legacy.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: It's just a color paint.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: If it didn't exist

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Where would joint fiscal go?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Well, that's a different question. That's a different question. But can ameliorate a lot of the parking concerns. Let's face it. The parking in Sedgian, I can't speak out Sedgian, is sufficient now. If all members commuted by themselves, there wouldn't be adequate parking now. It's it's it's defective now.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. It has been many years.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And to conceive of anything without that being part of the plan and not a follow-up, it's a not starter.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: Madam Chair, I just want

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: to say this is a really great conversation because as we rebuild for Montpelier, we potentially could be losing more parking because of the flooding. We are going to have to create flood mitigation areas. So again, I just encourage as we explore this, we just keep that in mind because it's going to be the whole complex. And I will just say for the record, actually, French Freeman is our architect of record that's working with us on the capital complex project. And so one of the good things is being aware of what's going over there and the federal requirements for the mitigation, and this project will all become clearer and be more cohesive over the next year, I would expect. Is that a fair statement, Shawn?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Absolutely. We clearly understand the need for parking here. We've done parking studies for this area over the past two decades. Ever. So we really understand it.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Ever and ever. We're buying another parking garage, John.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: That's right.

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: We gotta get this parking thing out. Parking garage is a bit.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: Cherry, just wanna keep an No. We're

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: bumping our 02:00 tomorrow.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: As you are aware, there's quite a slope here to the site. And again, commenting on Sergeant at Arms' statement that it's very difficult to park near here if you're handicapped. And if you can't park near here currently, it's very difficult to get here in that case. So what we're trying to do with this design, and it's still in motion, is if you can't park right near you, we're trying to say, Okay, well, can we adjust this parking to make it usable all year round? That's part of the issue is in the wintertime you can't use it. So we're still working it. It's tweaked there. It's starting to work, but we have a little more to do.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And where is that again?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: That's right beside the Pink Lady, which is right here.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: Shawn, the red, that would be the stairs that lead you into the new entryway.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Let me get you oriented here. Sorry, I see it automatically, but I forget people.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I haven't worked on this before.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: So here's a site plan from Google that just shows you what you're looking at. Here's that parking lot. Here's the annex. Here's where the new entry would go right here.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: from that, I take the single plan right here from our engineers. What I'm showing you is here's that annex right here. So that's this part right here. And here's where our new curved entry would come in, right into that corridor. And so this is outside. So this is the Pink Lady footprint right here. So that's this building right here.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: what we're saying is, this is a pretty steep site. That's what you're looking up right there in that photograph. We can't make an accessible route straight up. And if we don't have enough parking, people will have to take that route with wheelchairs. So what our goal is, is to create walking paths, access paths, because this is the new entry, that are ornamental, so to speak, ceremonial, because it is a formal entry. And create a path for everyone. So we have the ability from this existing confluence of walkways to have two paths up. A straight path up or a path that lines up that can utilize the grade to make the slopes acceptable for wheelchair access. So that's what we're trying to create there and create an organizing plaza right in front just with some paving for steps so people can get together before they go up. So it's not nearly anything as big as the main entry in front of the State House currently, but it's something that acknowledges that it is a formal entry to a formal pithole. Kevin?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: This is almost foolish to ask the question, but has anybody thought about a multi tier parking area all the way down? Because from a volume standpoint and a security standpoint, you would be able to enhance the security for the legislatures. And you're going to expand the volume you can handle. If you're going to have trucks going in and out with visitors and legislators in that area, that to me just seems like a I

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: would just like to say we're exploring many options. Again, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but we have to balance everything as we look at the complex at all. So, there an opportunity? Is there something down there that we've explored? Maybe how many spaces is it? We don't know. But it's again and I respect the legislative process and the legislation very much. We have to look at how the complex is used year round and how that impacts not just seasonal for the legislature. So to answer your question, we are looking at parking from the rebuild of the complex and from this side. And we just, we don't, we are exploring. We don't have a recommendation. We haven't finalized anything. Again, representative, it comes back to where are we with flood mitigation? Because that's going to be really extremely critical too. I don't know if there's anything you can highlight on that, Shawn.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Just suggesting the pinch point could be in the parking area as opposed to where all the visitors and all the traffic is coming in. If you had a three level parking area and the security there before you go through a secured tunnel.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: That's one option. And you

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: don't have people fearful of

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: That's one option, but we also have historic buildings that are in the foot order right now. We're looking at so many things.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: It's true you are. Yes. And notice I'm saying past the pink lady, so

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: that's going to But that also impacts the flood mitigation across street.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Absolutely. And

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the parking behind 133.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: That's correct. So it's, again, it's very, very whole list. Mean, it's the whole thing, but I think what's most important as a working group, we are looking at everything.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Absolutely. We're even looking at future construction for a state house expansion if you ever wanted to do that. We don't wanna preclude that happening in the future.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Got all the difficult transmission there.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: When you just so I understand, what do you

[Joe Luneau (Director of Design & Construction, BGS)]: say is parking way down there?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: What do where where are you talking? I'm talking with existing parking lot that houses 35 cars right now. And if you went up three levels and had security there

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You've got residential homes behind that, right? We'll be safe. So you've got

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: a build up. You're right. And then maybe the zoning says you can't. I'm just curious.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Commissioner is correct. We are looking at different options on how to address these issues. Absolutely. And flow of traffic is also of interest to us as to scheduling delivery so that they don't conflict with visitors. And also, again, as legislators may be coming in from the East to separate them from the visitors for those purposes.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: So you don't have

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: to go through screening because you're already cleared.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Flow here off session is very, very different. During the session, the biggest flow is in the morning when we all come in and staff is coming in. And then the cars are sitting there all after all day. And that's when your deliveries come in. That's when you're well, when we come in in the morning, any tour group students are coming in as well. In the summertime, the pinch points are not as drastic because we're out of town. So the staff are using our parking lots that we use. But then you've got the tourists coming in. You've got bus tours coming in here, particularly in the fall. You have a few coming in through the summer, but the bulk of it is in September and October, the bus tours. And the buses come up here, and then they have to find a way to get around. The folks are coming in. You really need ADA access for those bus tours. So the flow here is very, very different When we're here, it puts the pressure on everybody else. Brian?

[Speaker 0]: This is a minor question, but some loading dock would be moved a little further back in this proposal, but the approach for the trucks is basically the same? The

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: approach would be, yes, they go up from Aiken and then they just do diagram because we have to have the civil engineers do all the diagramming for trucks. But they come up, they pull this way, back in and then exit.

[Speaker 0]: And regardless of tourists and whatever, doesn't interfere with this. Mean, you want

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: to schedule things. The schedule would be key. Absolutely.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: For lack of better terms, they lose its swing, if you will. Existing handicap spot's gonna be gone. I'll stay because you're bumped out to about Where are you bumped out to? Somewhere around here?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Yeah. We come out about here with the building and then see where's the graph, there's the map. See right about here with the building and then the steps.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So that's kind of that.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: So we reorient those so they came out the way and they're free of the drop zone. So yeah, it's quite a little jewel box there to try to create.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And there's limits in terms of the size of the trucks coming in, right?

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Would be the same as what they can have handled now.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's basically box trucks.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Yeah, or small articulating trucks, the smaller size.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: We do get 18 wheelers that come in. We've had a couple get stuck.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When would they be

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: delivered? Usually with furniture, we're getting large furniture delivery. Or if they just have an oversized truck, they didn't realize how small our driveway was. Skilled drivers can get in and out, but vendor control, that's what we're calling the security world. Vendor control is very important in terms of our phases of security programming.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We want to have schedules. We want

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: to have people showing up on a schedule. We know what they're delivering. We'll be able to scan what they're delivering, screen what they're delivering. We just can't really do it. I actually love this picture that Shawn picked to show the Google image of how congested that loading dock is, and as we start to activate screening on a more regular basis, that will lead the public entrance, whether we build building or not, build the addition or not, that is going to be the public entrance for the State House moving forward. It's also, as you can see, where the jewel box, there's a lot going on there.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I think there's one more slide. Mary? I probably don't have to ask this if you put me on my own choice. The new portion that you're going to be building for the entrance of folks coming in is historically appropriate for, and I know I don't know if because we've used your company for many projects over the years, but it goes in the historic preservation.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Correct. I haven't heard that said,

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: and I know David wouldn't want anything else, so I just wanted to make sure.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Historic preservation eyes have been on this from

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: the outset. Sure. It leaves

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: More matrices has been part of the process.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: That's what I figured.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So is the Capital Complex Commission going to have to get involved in this at all? Is the National Historic entities going to have to get involved in this?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yes. So we will have to present the final to the capital complex for them to weigh in. The final design. We have talked depending on the schedule. Will come a point in time when we will, as a courtesy, bring it forward to the Capital Complex Commission because we like to get their read. Is there anything that they want to see or ask any questions before we get there? And then I think everyone, it's important. Our Capital Complex is a national. It's on the National Historic Register. So it's not just this building, it's our complex. So the answer to that question is no matter what we do, they will be involved with this project. And if we make any significant changes, once we come to, once we receive an offer from FEMA, then we look at those. That is, yours, you know, our historic preservation, entity is a part of those discussions. With the complex, we require that Freeman French Freeman bring on a historic architect. So there's multiple levels of consulting that is that is occurring, madam chair.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So is that all gonna happen in the design development phase? Or does that get into your construction document phase?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Consulting with the national, I said Laura.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: National is in each phase. Correct. So we submit at each phase.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: At each phase.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: And I think what Shawn just said is we submit, there's a process that French Freeman goes through in that submission, right? Correct.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: And so for the record, we did already submit to the Historic Registry for schematic design, and we did not hear back that we had ninety days, and in those ninety days, we did not hear back any objection.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And when was that submitted?

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: It was in the fall. So we passed the It was past fall? Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Maybe they see, there weren't enough people to see it.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Instead of not receiving valuable documents But you didn't You need to tell the document.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There. And wasn't it shut down at the same

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: time? Did

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: some of that.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Do you need a form of synthesis? Could either some

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: of that.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: That would be a question for Laura Treishman. And the question was, we didn't hear back after ninety days. So do we need something in writing from them that they did not attend?

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I do think we would want something in writing so they could just say, hold the plug on it when we're in the midst

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: of giving. Plus it was during the government shutdown.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So I'm sure they weren't looking to the amounts in addition to our state house, I can assure you.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I think even if we didn't hear from them at this space, what Shawn is referencing is there's gonna be another, there's going to be another submission. So while at the schematic design, we didn't hear anything. Think at the next submission, the design is much more defined. So we would expect to hear from them.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I'm asking those questions. I just don't appear to be a hiccup in the morning. That's my only reason I may ask.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. Let's do the next slide because we do have testimony waiting for us. I bumped them to about quarter after. So if we could go through this pretty quick.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: So this is just to illustrate some of the work our engineers are doing. So what this shows is, sorry, here's the addition again, here's connector to the atrium of the courtyard. Here's our project we just finished, addition in the back that has the new air handling equipment in it. So we're working off of that and extending that. We're installing new equipment that has to feed all of our new spaces. So we realize we're going to have additional load on our equipment because we have new spaces to condition. And so we're adding on new equipment in order to meet that load. And we're going to be making sure the later phases of the HVAC project take that into account so that we're not putting in equipment now and then having to take it out or modify it later when this project did happen.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I wanna backtrack to the quarter. And speaking of the equipment, to the quarter and the courtyard, we have a bump out because of The HVAC and it was the heat pump. I mean, it was, we didn't do the summer boiler. So we ended up with that bump out there in the courtyard. Does that stay or are you gonna be re-

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: That stays. We don't wanna spend the money honestly to redo all of that. It could probably be reworked, but it would be a good amount of money.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, that quarter is pretty narrow. I mean, it's got that little bump out there, so it's not gonna be flush with the building.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Right. It's this zone. Right. This is

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: what you're talking about. Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: It's actually quite a nice space, that atrium. I've spent a lot of time just standing here outside imagining it's not the same size as the lobby, but it is pretty nice. It's a pretty nice big space.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So in order to get through construction documents to bid it, the 1.3 that you're requesting will get you through that process. What you have in hand right now is 346,000. If you just had the 346,000 and we did not buy the 1.3, that would get you through design development so that we can reassess next year in terms of how

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: do we move forward here.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Correct. Right?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yes. And we would have to complete that work. I'm going to emphasize this because I'm very

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because of the ARPA money.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: By December. And so I would say to the team, is that reasonable to get that work completed by December or the funds The design doc developed. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because here you have it's be done in August '26.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: So we would have to spend it, Madam Chair, the remaining balance on or before the December 31. And is that reasonable? Yes.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Better than perhaps.

[Speaker 0]: I was gonna say.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, those are the two now. That's the two options right before us right now. And when we start markup is where we'll start making some decisions.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: I'm sure I'd just like to add, because I think I've shared with the committee that this project is an absolute priority for the Sergeant in Arms Office. Just like all the projects that come with this committee, it's my responsibility to advocate for this project. It's directly tied to the security program of the State House in terms of our ability to have adequate space to do screening. We're kind of the way I describe it is like making dinner out of the pantry. If we're doing screening out of a loading dock and we're probably not coming back from that, this project doors opening would be at least four years. And any delay is a delay in an opportunity to move forward on the HVAC project. It's a delay on an opportunity to think about that hotel space, what we're using it for. There's a lot of space in that including where the coffee room is, that is just on hold until we make a decision on this project. To support the project, the 1,300,000.0 lets us be able to make commitments to the construction management firms. So I will just leave it at that. This project is a priority for the Sergeant Art's office. Brian?

[Speaker 0]: This is sort of, and

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: I do this sometimes, a mess of

[Speaker 0]: a question, but I remember this from your previous testimony too. There's sort of this origin story about why this came about. And I think anybody here can write the headline as well as I can about legislators spending millions of dollars on their own digs when people are sweeping rough. And so this all started with a security concern, but it also addresses deliveries and ADA and people wayfinding. This is

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: a public access project. It's not about making space for legislators or staff. This project is 100% about public access, ADA access, pure access to the state of art. So the origin was actually COVID and it's creating a space for health screening. So it's about COVID and that's where the ARPA funds came from. And as it developed and as security became more of an issue, it's developed more into a security and ADA project, which is absolutely about public access. You're not getting offices out of this. You're not even getting bigger committee rooms. What you're getting is a front door so that people can come in and out of the building with more ease and can more, be more courteous about how we're bringing people into the building. We don't have to say, ADA, you have to come in through the loading dock, which is exactly what I have to say to so many people right now when they're trying to visit the State House.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Started way back when people trying to find more space in the building for us.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: This was discussed during nineeleven. Right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So this is really narrow, much narrow than what it was originally thought. It's been scaled back a lot. Because this all started back in '21. '21. And it was COVID that drove it. But what also drove it was bigger, more space in the building. So it's been scaled back along.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Good.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else before we finish up here and transition real fast? Thank you. Thank you. I'm sure we'll be in touch when we start markup. We'll be in touch. I'm sure.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Sure.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we've got coming in a request for money in the capital bill to be used for recovery housing.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Yeah. Everything is recovering.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Is so poor. Can I

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: still think? I don't got

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: that entrance. I mean, you do it.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: It's the leaking kind

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: of thing. That's what I'm worried about. Committing more money. I know. You know, you gotta balance that,

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: but you're gonna do it at

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: a directional facility.

[Speaker 0]: Okay,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: folks. I'm sorry. We're running a loop. So we're gonna shift gears here. We have just had how do pronounce your last name?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: I think Viche.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Viche. Yes.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Viche. Is your okay?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: It's French. There was literally none ice cube left.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: She's probably not already.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm gonna say so.

[Speaker 0]: I'm sorry.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We've got a request here for some money to be put into some recovery homes. And this is being asked that the and it's an addition to our capital bill has not come in as a request from the governor in our capital budget budget adjustment. These are not state owned property.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Correct.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Though they do operate they do get state money for operations, and there is a plan as well to increase the number of recovered beds around the state as well. And I don't know if any of this request is tied into that request as well. So you might wanna weigh in on that one way or the other. So So this

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: is not on any budget or

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It is not in the governor's capital bill budget adjustment. It is being requested for us to add this to the cap. Chad, welcome. I know you came up from You had a gorgeous day to drive up.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: That's very nice.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So welcome. And there is a memo that you have presented to us. So if you could just introduce yourself for the record.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, committee members, for having me today and moving your schedule around a late afternoon to accommodate. My name is Chad Viger. I am the CEO, the Executive Director of Recovery House Inc. I do wanna start by clarifying that Recovery House, despite its name, which was established in 1980 for namesake, does not operate any recovery homes. We specialize in residential substance use treatment programming. So we operate Serenity House, which has been around since 1972. We operate Grace House, which is a lower intensity level of care, a three month program of treatment that's been around since 2020. And we operate another longer term three month treatment program called the McGee House, which opened in November 2024. So we specialize in treatment. Part of our demographic is a considerable amount of folks who often intersect the justice and correction system. I think our estimate is around fifty percent of our population has some intersection with either the justice or criminal correction system as a part of their daily living experience. So I'd like to kind of walk through time a little bit, established fifty years ago in what have been established as not quite historic sites, but certainly properties that are older than 120 years old. There's been a lot of deferred maintenance. You think about substance use treatment, reimbursement rates over the years, every dollar has really gone to client care over those years, and there have been a lot of facilities disrepair that were pushed aside and kicked down the road because that wasn't the priority at the time. And operating over fifty years, I'm entering into this phase where I'm thinking about the next fifty years and our buildings, you know, I'm not sure will last another fifty years. And so we've been doing repairs over the years to to try to keep up with some of that deferred maintenance, but we've reached a point where the projects are too many, and we we simply don't have the the capital to get to a point where we're caught up on those those improvements. I I do also want to draw your attention to the memo where I know that 98% of our work is supported by the state and federal government through either Medicaid reimbursement or grants. And so there isn't much room for profit over those years as those rates have been historically low and the grant funding isn't intended to have operators make make profit for additional needs. Our total capital improvement requests that I'm bringing forward is for $220,000 And this includes a list of capital improvement priorities at each of our three locations, surrounding the house, Grace House, and McGee House. For example, fixing our roof or installing new windows, which will help with our heating costs, installing a generator. The the Vermont winters are are a bit harsh. And as it stands right now, when we lose power during a snowstorm, I myself go down to the facility, drag out a generator and hook it up. So we're to become more efficient, more cost effective. And I believe by investing in our facilities, we are gonna be more cost effective, and we're gonna be able to deliver more and better efficient care to Vermonters.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Alice. Mhmm.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Well, I've got a question. We're all in favor of recovery homes and that, especially dealing with our corrections population and all of that. But why so late in the process of putting this forth for funding because it's always a challenge at this point of the game. It's not a game. But this point of the legislative session to be pulling money from other places. And the governor's always saying that, you know, we need recovery home or housing and all of that with treatment. That possibly would have been a better benefit had you back in the fall when they were putting the budget together. So why so late in the process are you coming before us and what other committees have you talked with?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So I think a big part of our timeline is trying to understand what the governor's budget was going to look like. We knew that there was going to be considerable focus on recovery homes. Fortunately, we don't fall under that category because we're delivering treatment. So there was a delay in trying to figure out what monies would be available. And since there were no monies available, we put together this request after that.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: So, a

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: little more clarity. So you're not considered part of what the state sees as recovery homes?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Correct.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Between the Serenity House, Grace House, the McGee House, right? So how are those three entities operating? Do they operate with separate boards? Or is there one board for all three of them?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: One board for all three. So Recovery House Inc. Is the umbrella organization. And that board oversees the programs at Serenity House, Grace House and McGee House. And we operate as health care facilities rather than recovery homes. So does that mean that you're able to Well, how do

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I how do I ask this?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Does that mean you don't have to meet federal or state, like, requirements inside? Like, do you have to, like is it really stringent what you do? Like, you run the inside of that those businesses? The physical plant itself. In a physical plant. So we are licensed by Dale. So we follow Dale standards. We follow Department of Fire Safety Standards. We are operating up to code according to them. Okay. But there are some disrepair items that don't draw that attention. Right. So it's just it's so much less expensive than us doing it, having it be private. This is private. Correct? Correct. It's you get tremendous bang for your buck with this right here to me.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Well, you were saying, Miguel, some of your money federally as well. Mhmm. So don't they have to be part of the picture? I don't.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Do you get state reimbursement for any of your beds?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Through Medicaid, yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Do you get any beds through DOC? No. It's all through Medicaid, but you don't but you're housing some folks who have come from DOC, but DOC isn't paying for those beds?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Correct. They would be either Medicaid recipients or private insurance.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So are you getting anyone through Department of Mental Health or the designated agency that are paying for those beds? No. It's all through Medicaid, but are they also clients of the designated agencies?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: In a lot of cases, yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh, it's Medicaid that's paying. And Medicaid will be paying for those folks who are DOC connected. Do you have folks who are DOC connected who are on furlough and parole? Yes. But DOC is not paying for those beds. It's through the Medicaid for that person.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Through Medicaid.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And your nonprofits? Correct. And do you look at grant money for operation as well as infrastructure upgrades?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So oftentimes the grant monies don't allow for certain operational costs. They're typically project based, but we do receive block grant funding through the feds. There are some state grants that we have for outreach and engagement and and a few other a few other needs as well. I'm trying to think of grants we might have that different operations. I think it's when we think about the operations, it's oftentimes focused on FTEs and being able to deliver the service in a certain way.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Alice, we can oh, I'm at meaning to interrupt, but just to follow on that, would they be eligible to apply for a grant for like, and I've been with

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: community, we're busy, many grants.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And I'm surprised you almost haven't been put in for that, because I know we just built two new recovery, or there's not two private recovery homes that the second one's getting started to be redone in Bennington, but we have one and it's sounding similar to yours is, and I know they've tried to do the steps along the way. They are private like yours, but they are trying to also do through grants and all of that, so I'm just trying to find where there's some helpful parts, because this is difficult, and I'm not trying to say it's not possible, but it is difficult to come in with almost the eleventh hour asking for more money. We'll try to do our best.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Kevin and then Shawn.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I'm trying to get a handle on who qualifies to receive your services.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So anyone who is in need of substance use treatment, and we utilize what's called the ASAM criteria to determine level of care appropriateness. That is a series of guidelines that the American Society of Addiction Medicine has put forward. And as long as they're in need and they qualify through those criterion, then we would bring them into our facilities for treatment. So in state residents or someone from out state doesn't matter? So we're almost exclusively Vermont resident based with our population.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: But that wouldn't distinguish. If someone from New York showed up on, and I don't mean to be cold, showed up on your and they met the need, you'd take them.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: In theory, one thing that we don't do is we wouldn't be in network if they had New York Medicaid. And so we prioritize Vermont Medicaid first.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And the top line says residential substance use treatment. So my bottom line question is, we want every individual healthy. What would be the way you'd characterize your treatments to help them get healthy?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So our highest level of care is Serenity House and we offer withdrawal management or detox. That facility there is what prevents more people from going to the emergency department who are in need of detox services for alcohol, benzodiazepines or opiates. So we're functioning as a high level medical facility, not as high as a hospital, but certainly at a more cost effective base. That is our highest level of care. Folks will often meet criteria for two to four weeks in that level of care. And then we work on transitioning them to lower levels of care based on what their need and criteria are. Our lower levels of care are clinically managed. So there really isn't any medical intervention, but there are clinical intervention with counselors. And there's a community reintegration component. There's a workforce development component. And we're preparing them to go from our highest level of care to a recovery home, but they need that missing gap sorted out first. And so that's another three, sometimes even four months to bridge them in treatment until they're prepared for a sober house. And one more in the mouth, what I was hearing is most of the individuals coming to you are from the Justice of Correction 50%. Activities. So

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: if that's the case, they're coming to you from our prisons addicted to substances, and they need your help to get off of those substances.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: They're not necessarily coming from the prison, although we do have a good number of folks coming from prison into our facilities. Oftentimes, there may be a link with probation and parole offices, they're out in community being supervised.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Roughly what percentage come out of incarcerations? How would you have? Oh,

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: I don't no. No. This I'm thinking more along the lines of 10 or 15.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: 10 or 15.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You know? People or percentage?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Percentage.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Okay. Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Shawn and then Conor?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So the numbers are great. The numbers are, like, more of the numbers that I'm used to looking at. Like, they're not

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Not the millions?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I mean, I don't mean to throw anyone at the bus, but it's not state numbers. These are great numbers. Like, do you have? We don't have to get into every single one of them. They all look really reasonable. They're some like, to me, placing vinyl siding and windows, a $100, that sounds about right. Do you have someone you've lined up to do these things? So these are all based on quotes or conversations I've had with local contractors. We've used a few on our facilities before. Okay. So I'm pretty confident with these numbers. Alright. Thank you. I just needed some clarity with that.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And have

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you have you worked with efficiency Vermont with any of us to see if they could help financially?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Not to see if they could help financially. I think there were some some past history that we've had with them when looking at replacing windows in the house. I would be interested in bringing them on board with Serenity House windows as well because there's a lot of efficiencies needing to be had in that building.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Gina, thanks so much for the work you do. This all sounds really worthy. I think where some of these questions are coming from is the fear of the precedent setting in the capital bill for something like this, right? So I'm wondering if you could talk about this recovery house. It's obviously kind of Rutland County based there. Are there equivalent groups regionally? What are they? And I guess the problem is you kind of got to make the case like, why should you leapfrog one of these other groups that probably has competing demands as well, right? It's tough because we send a capital bill out to the floor. You better believe everybody from all the other counties are gonna be like, well, where's the money for our recovery houses? Right? So I think that's where some of these questions are coming from.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So we're very unique compared to some of the other preferred providers around the state where we serve the entire state as a residential treatment facility. Yes, we have three buildings in Rutland, but we are serving community members from Newport or Canaan or Grand Isle or Brattleboro. You know, we have the service where we bring folks into treatment and then we work on getting them back into either their community of support or new community of recovery around the state. So it's the same statewide presence that Valley Vista would have as well. So we're not specific to region.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. That's helpful. Thanks.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Brian?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: There are

[Speaker 0]: sort of like two categories or two buckets of questions. And the first one is I'm just trying to picture this. So and I think you said at least one or maybe more of the places are over 120 years old. So are we talking about three big old houses with multiple people in them? Yes.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Okay. And then about numbers too. Is it about six or 10 or however many people per house or whatever? Per house? So in our Serenity House location right now, our capacity is 30 people. In Magee House, we have 16 beds. In Grace House, we have 12 beds. And also in Grace House, we have located for the last several decades, five public inebriate beds off of that building as well. How often are those full? Full public inebriate, not so often. It depends on the day. New Year's and fourth of July. And we are also, Recovery House is working on launching the virtual public inebriate screening for statewide access to law enforcement so we can point public inebriates and the law enforcement officers in the right direction.

[Speaker 0]: And then the sort of second bucket.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Sorry, Troy. No. I thought you were gonna say.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. I know. So we're seeing these requests all kind of lumped together. Right? But I assume there's a prioritization. I mean, I don't know. But first of all, like, have any of them been made before? And second of since they're all coming together, you know, I I assume the roof is all over office space, for instance. Or like, is there a way of sort of categorizing the need? And has it been approached before abroad? Sort of wild together and now. Yeah. I guess.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: I'm trying to think

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: I I believe several years ago, I I attempted to request some capital improvement funds. Didn't go too far that session. So we thought, gee, we're gonna tackle these issues. We we were able to completely redo the Serenity House kitchen. And then we looked at the rest of our list and we said, we can't do this in a reasonable time frame before things start to fall apart around us. We need some additional resources.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay, thanks.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Just

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: overall capacity. You talked about your overall capacity. What's your overall use rate? How full are you? Depends on the day. I can give you a snapshot in time. I think we've had recent weeks where we've been at the 90% mark. We've had recent weeks where we've been at the 60%. Historically, residential treatment in Vermont has been around 65% utilization. During COVID, residential treatment in Vermont dropped about 50%, fifty five percent. And since COVID, since the peak of COVID, back up in that 65% mark. But we have been seeing that increase as well over the past several months.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay. Thank you. Feel free to say it's none of your business.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Think this is a fair question.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: But in number of staff, and what kind of salaries are we talking about for the staff that run these places? Is that a reasonable question? It's a reasonable question. The reason I feel comfortable in asking is because you use the word profit. You said not a whole lot of profit when you're looking at Medicaid and grants. To me that tells me that you're very sensitive to being reasonable, like Sweeney said about these costs. So I'm hoping that my question isn't offensive.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: No, not at all. So I look at nonprofits with that old adage of no margin, no mission. And so the idea is we wanna make sure that the building is able to carry us forward as we continue to drive that mission over the next fifty years.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: We

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: have roughly 38 full time staff right now and a handful of part time staff, the largest staffing we've ever had. And the reason for that is to drive utilization, but to also reduce wait times. So essentially enhancing access. So we've done that. The salaries, I would say, have been historically underwhelming. We cannot compete with hospitals. We cannot compete with FQHCs or other primary care facilities. And it's been difficult. So we're really looking at staff who are focused on the mission, while also trying to advocate for more workforce development in the state for this field, in addition to increasing Medicaid rates, for example, so that we can pay people a wage that they will stay in

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: the field. Thank you. Thank

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: you for what you're doing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So this was alluded to from Mary. We have what's called building community grants program. And sector of those building community grants is a human services grants program that are targeted specifically towards nonprofits for small projects such as this. Have any your organization approached trying to get grant dollars from those grant programs?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So this was a topic of conversation a few years back for me with the governor's office. We looked into it, I couldn't remember at the time what it what it was that led us to not apply. I can certainly take a look

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: at that again now. Because they're targeted specifically for situations, clinics specifically. Grants up to 25,000. It's a one to one match. It's very simple to apply for. It's a one sheeter form to fill out. And it's specifically for items such as this. And it was set up twenty years ago as a way to get away from these individual requests coming in from different entities for capital projects. We fund it through the capital bill. But when I look at the list here, and these are projects that that's what those community building grants specifically work with. Mary? Do you

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: have anyone within your association that is writing grants or looking at grants? Because there are tons of grants all over the place that you can look for specific projects, just like Alice had asked about efficiency for Martin. I know it sounds like you didn't have a good experience, were possibly going to work with them before, but there are a number of grants out there that for just these kinds of improvements, they're there and someone, I would think it would be in your best interest on not telling you how to run your shop, but to have someone constantly looking, because you keep saying a couple of years ago, so your buildings are getting more troublesome because the maintenance isn't getting done. So if you had someone that was looking in a plan going forth as to what needs to be done so that you're going to finally get them up to grade and, that's kind of really what you need. But I'm not trying to tell you. Questions, members?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're in the process. We will be looking at the capital budget.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And other things we need to get out.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We haven't made any decisions on anything at this point. You've heard some of our concerns. And when we start markup, we'll be going through all of our requests to see where these will end up.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I ask one last question. You said that a lot of times, depending upon the day, you can either be at a 90 or 85 or whatever. Mhmm. We hear all the time in our area, I don't know about other parts of the state, that a lot of times there are no recovery beds available, so do you have to have a referral or not, or someone can just come and seek the help?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: So we take on folks who call themselves, we also accept referrals. One of the narratives that we're trying to combat is the idea that there's limited access. We're working very closely with Valley Vista, with DSU, VDH and AHS to kind of debunk that myth because we are bringing in folks fairly quickly for a subacute facility like ourselves and Valley Vista as well. Between the two of us, we're often doing same day admissions, same day screenings. And so we're trying to combat that narrative, because there is a Yeah, little

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I'm surprised to hear that you can do same day, and I appreciate so much what your organization is doing to help folks. But like I said, we hear so often there are no beds, a lot of times folks are being kept in the hospital you know, for weeks on end, at a very high cost, without having a place to go. So I'm just a little challenged by that, but we truly do appreciate it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you. Kevin?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Do you have any data that shows success for symptoms as being redefined as we speak. But do you have anything that says fifty percent of the people that we've provided service for are on the straight and narrow and become healthy and productive again? Anything like that to help us understand?

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: No, no. And I wouldn't even want to venture a guess. As a field, we have not defined clearly what success looks like, and we haven't established any evidence based model for collecting that information. Oftentimes, the people who are doing well, we don't hear from again. So we look at recidivism, right? And that's the benchmark for what we look at as success. But I challenge that thinking as well. So I looked at our figures a little while back, and I found that eleven percent of our demographic went through residential treatments, either us or Valley Vista, and then returned back to residential treatment in six months. Only eleven percent. With a disease such as addiction, we look at that recidivism as a good thing. Folks seeking help when they need help, because we know that relapse is occurring out in community. How quickly can we get them back into the system of care? And so we're looking at recidivism not as a benchmark for success or failure, but how we're retaining people within our system of care. So there really is no good way of defining how successful any program is, and I would challenge any program that's touted any sort of success rates out in the public.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah, it's certainly very difficult to measure, but with the experience I've done, there's a very clear way of measuring it, and it's that they get clean.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: And then those numbers are hard to capture.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: No, I understand. Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Other questions? Again, Chad, thank you for coming up.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Thank you.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: You for all

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: your take work. This under consideration when we do markup bill next week.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Thank you.

[Agatha Kessler (Sergeant at Arms)]: Thanks, Joanne. Thank you.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Thank you.

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: Have a good day. You too.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we have DOC waiting. We have a new draft for H550, which is the gender equity. I would like to take a quick five minute break so people can get out of the room. It's fresh air.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Sounds good.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: If somebody has a maybe we could take that window Yeah.

[Shawn Brennan (Architect, Freeman French Freeman)]: Wasn't It's

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: like door. Wasn't

[Chad Viger (Executive Director, Recovery House, Inc.)]: door. Wasn't

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: far off after

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No. He

[Speaker 0]: did