Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: Website. You

[Alice M. Emmons]: may need to get Hailey

[Brian Minier]: one. Thanks.

[Alice M. Emmons]: We're live. It

[Shawn Sweeney]: is Wednesday,

[Alice M. Emmons]: February 25. We have a document here, letter of intent. Thinking is it would come from the committee. We

[Troy Headrick]: will go

[Alice M. Emmons]: from there. So as I explained, James and I and Troy had a conversation a little bit with DOC and more with VAP from on asylum assistance project program project. Project. The testimony that we had received about the ICE detainees and having access to legal representation as well as language interpretation, just kind of language. So, particularly in conversations with VAP, it was suggested that VAP and DOC develop an MOU on how to address those particular two issues. And then Troy was willing to draft a letter of intent that will be sent to both parties. And so it was originally six pages. Troy, please cut it back for two. He did his best. It was two and a half. Not quite three. So Troy, do you want to walk us through this a little bit?

[Troy Headrick]: Yeah, so it basically lays out how we got here. The three of us met first with DOC, then we met with the other stakeholders. And then it of summarizes what we took from those meetings and our decision to this is a committee directive our decision that an MOU will probably be an appropriate thing to have happen right now. End of page one closes with a summary of the areas concerned that came out of those meetings. Then the timeline of what we would like. There's some question marks in here. The first is a deadline of March 6, executive aggressive. The second is it currently calls for weekly updates, if that's necessary. And then a joint report by mid April to continue the conversation about whether or not next steps might be necessary, including legislative oversight or statutory clarification. And then it lays out requirements of the MOU, what should be in the MOU. I will say block scheduling and access. So there was a period between July and October where they were essentially vetted and able to use their own equipment, which gave them access to their translation services. That ended in October. So the MOU suggests you can either return to that vetting process, or you can make sure you have enough devices that the DOC approves for use to sufficiently cover the needs of translation services. And then just consistency across right now, it's CRCF and Northwest. Not unlikely, I guess, that we might end up needing other facilities as things ramp up. And then what this contains.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So it's very long, a lot of details, which may not be a bad idea because this is new. And I think we just want to be very, very clear in terms of what is being looked for in an MOU so that both parties are really clear. What I would suggest is that we quietly start reading it. I would read, begin at the beginning. And then hear what committee members are thinking of the current proposed language. So the first part is really sort of laying out the background of it.

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: So if we quietly can read the first three

[Alice M. Emmons]: paragraphs, and then we'll have a discussion. Where are folks on the first three paragraphs?

[Troy Headrick]: Looks good. I'm just just

[Alice M. Emmons]: first three paragraphs.

[Troy Headrick]: So

[Alice M. Emmons]: I want to make sure, many finds informal problem solving insufficient. That's the last paragraph. Formal structure accountability and enforceable standards are now required. I'm pretty comfortable with that language. Mhmm.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Yeah. Totally. Peace.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Still reading?

[Gina Galfetti]: No. My writing skills are wanting me to change it a little bit, but it

[James Gregoire]: Alice, I'm not sure if systemic barriers is correct. Is it? I'd like Hailey to chime in on that. Because I heard that they're well, we're talking about two facilities. Right?

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: Right.

[James Gregoire]: So it's not I mean, systemic means to me that it's across the whole board, which it's not. It's two it's two facilities. I just, you know, I I just wanna make sure that we have our facts right. That's all.

[Troy Headrick]: Yep. Shawn, where are you on? What It's

[Shawn Sweeney]: a second pair for third one sentence. Gotcha.

[Gina Galfetti]: So Shawn are you suggesting striking I

[James Gregoire]: would just say I would get rid of systemic. I would just say describing barriers that impede legal access.

[Shawn Sweeney]: That's good. That's

[James Gregoire]: That's good. All. And I think that still gets the point across, but it makes it not as like dramatic.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Are you comfortable with that Troy?

[Troy Headrick]: Yeah, I'm gonna let the committee do the editing from here. Take my ego out of this. Well,

[Brian Minier]: to ask, I mean, is there any question if we take out systemic that we're then saying this started because of a change in administration or a change in supervisor or by not implicating the system or implicating something smaller, something that would be addressed in a different way.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Think there's enough

[Conor Casey]: proof of any one particular thing. I think barriers is good.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Right. Just to get barriers? Is Barriers is Keep it keep it easy. No. So we comfortable with eliminating the word systemic? Yes. Yes.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Shawn.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Got it. Anything else in these first three paragraphs? Let's look at the committee directive and then the areas of concern.

[Gina Galfetti]: First question is the word expects the best word or requests? Certainly expects is a stronger message than requests, but I don't know. I haven't seen one of these before.

[Shawn Sweeney]: I think expects because we've already given them time to make some improvements based on testimony, didn't quite hear that they were able to. Okay.

[Troy Headrick]: I'll just say it's framed as a legislative letter of intent. So we're expressing this committee's intent.

[Gina Galfetti]: Yeah. Expectations.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So we're okay with the term expect? Yes.

[Gina Galfetti]: We consulted with the Human Rights Commission, another pretty short staffing.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So those bullets is to address where the problem areas are, which is interpretation, access to the person, and that it's inconsistent between the implementation of these between the two facilities.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I'm fine with those bullets.

[Gina Galfetti]: I have a concern just before.

[Troy Headrick]: Yeah. Don't know.

[Gina Galfetti]: Per sentence and concern what school we get to.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. Think these issues implicate more than administrative inefficiencies. Is that what you're

[Conor Casey]: Yeah. I went Just press

[Troy Headrick]: Hold on. Not change. We're kicking it out.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. Just take that one out.

[Gina Galfetti]: I'm not the supreme dictator. They're all set.

[Conor Casey]: We're live.

[Brian Minier]: He commended.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Other folks, do we wanna eliminate that first sentence? Yeah.

[James Gregoire]: Agree with them. I also, I know Troy, you and John have your history. But I also, my take on this is that we still wanna work with DOC and we wanna be with them, not against them. So I think highlighting this stuff is important, but I also feel, you know, I wanna stay on their team because to me watching what's happened in the last year, DOC is our line of defense to keep immigrants in state. And I just wanna continue a positive trajectory with them. I just need to say that.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Got anything else? Can I? Can we take out that very first sentence? So let's look at the timeline. I think March 6 is a little soon.

[Gina Galfetti]: I agree.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Yeah. I would March 15.

[Alice M. Emmons]: What day of the week is March 15?

[Troy Headrick]: Friday and Sunday.

[Alice M. Emmons]: The fifteenth is Sunday. What about sixteenth? Sixteenth.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Sorry.

[Alice M. Emmons]: We come back. It's a week after we come back.

[Troy Headrick]: Yeah. It's a week after.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Would March 16 work? Yes. Right.

[Troy Headrick]: Weekly updates would have to if you want one weekly updates, when should they start?

[Gina Galfetti]: They'd have to get pushed a week at least, wouldn't they? Yeah. So twenty third maybe? Yeah.

[Conor Casey]: Did you

[Gina Galfetti]: say the twenty third or the twenty third. For the interim reporter?

[Troy Headrick]: Do you want them weekly?

[Brian Minier]: I was thinking biweekly, but

[Alice M. Emmons]: Well, I think about a schedule too. And okay. What the updates would include legal appointments. So just think of the legislative process. After crossover. Put that up again. I can see course. So it's coming back on the sixteenth. That week, we're gonna be doing a lot of capital bill markup.

[Gina Galfetti]: Mhmm. They're written updates. Right? They don't that's just they don't

[Alice M. Emmons]: And then the week of the twenty third is when they start doing weekly reports. We will be getting Senate bills back in case we have to do anything legislative because all the House bills are gonna be gone.

[Brian Minier]: You're concerned about our capacity or?

[Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah, I'm just thinking of legislative calendar days, legislative math, terms of when things come back over from the Senate, if we need a vehicle to change something, house bills are gonna be gone. The capital bill will be I don't know if we'll vote it out by the twentieth or the following week. I'm just thinking what vehicles we might have in case we wanna make some legislative change.

[Gina Galfetti]: So are you advocating for four? Or No.

[Alice M. Emmons]: I'm just thinking through. Okay. Thinking through the calendar math. Just processing.

[Gina Galfetti]: You want to leave it weekly, so you could I don't know.

[Alice M. Emmons]: I would say weekly because if you do it every two weeks, first thing

[Gina Galfetti]: you know,

[Alice M. Emmons]: in the April.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Then it's too late. It'll be week through two.

[Gina Galfetti]: Okay. Okay. Makes sense.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So then the comprehensive report is really to evaluate the MOU. Correct. Yep.

[Troy Headrick]: That's

[Alice M. Emmons]: April 15. So the MOU would be finalized on the sixteenth. So it would be in place. But if it's finalized, then it would be in place a month. It gives them a month to evaluate.

[Brian Minier]: And it feels fast, but we can't do anything faster than mid March. We can't wait longer than mid April.

[Shawn Sweeney]: We've got to keep those dates because otherwise we're going to be into the session and then not going be any flexibility.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So they need to report on the effectiveness of the implementation, MOU, measurable improvements to legal access, what remaining barriers there may be, and any recommended policy resource adjust.

[Gina Galfetti]: Yeah. I don't know we're down here yet. Right here. Are we are we at the party? Yep. Okay. Do we need any permission from the speaker or anything to be passed crossover as far as making legislative

[Alice M. Emmons]: We gotta find a vehicle.

[Troy Headrick]: Okay.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. He has

[Shawn Sweeney]: to find a vehicle.

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: You gotta find a bill.

[Alice M. Emmons]: That's why I was doing the math for March 23 on the weekly update.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Okay.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Let's keep going. Minimum requirement.

[Brian Minier]: There's the black scheduling to accommodate what we heard described in testimony where there's sort of like a point legal person, and then don't know you want to call them for assistance or whatever.

[Troy Headrick]: So you can do multiple detain people. Well, that's more importantly a predictable every Tuesday and Thursday from blank to blank.

[Brian Minier]: See. Thank you.

[Troy Headrick]: I don't think that we can create space for Can't hear you. Yeah. Or five at a time

[Gina Galfetti]: or whatever it is. Yeah. James couldn't hear you. I heard it. Yeah. I just drove it.

[Troy Headrick]: A project that I can commit to that, Gina.

[Gina Galfetti]: By March 15?

[Shawn Sweeney]: Mhmm. Unfortunately, I can't. I

[James Gregoire]: just have like so the that guaranteed legal access. Right? Yeah. So this that that last sentence like and I totally appreciate it and I love it. I just don't know if like you know I don't know if we Haley could could chime in here but

[Alice M. Emmons]: She doesn't wanna don't know. We're doing it

[James Gregoire]: on purpose, but there's no space sometimes, right, Haley? But

[Brian Minier]: it says cancellation, not scheduling. Yeah.

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: I think I would be very concerned if the language shouldn't include the piece around routine cancellation. I can understand what the intent was behind that. But I think if it were to say that base limitations could serve as a basis for cancellation and any circumstance that would be something that the department likely love to you just face constraints.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Routine is reasonable.

[James Gregoire]: You're saying you feel okay with that, Haley?

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: It's a reasonable request as

[Alice M. Emmons]: long as we keep the word routine in there.

[Gina Galfetti]: Yeah. Alright. Thank you. I I apologize. I go back to the topic page So this weekly reporting, does the weekly reporting culminate with the joint report on April 15? Okay. So that language suffices.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Then it gives That's would happen. I'm not speaking to you, Troy, but this is how I interpret it. If there's weekly updates, at least given to the three of us, at least it gives us a direction that they're they may not be able to meet everything that's being asked of the MOU, or there may be Sure. Something that's really coming up to the top, and we're thinking we may need to do some legislation here by the time they come in with their full review.

[Gina Galfetti]: Answer my question, though. There's no expectation for a weekly report in perpetuity?

[Alice M. Emmons]: No. No. No. Just that interim.

[Gina Galfetti]: Very well.

[Conor Casey]: And then just a little housekeeping. You know, we're requesting that the report goes out to VAP and the Human Rights Commission. We just, for clarity, we making sure the ACL view is included in there.

[Troy Headrick]: Correct me if I'm wrong, chair and vice chair.

[Brian Minier]: They said to give it to the other

[Alice M. Emmons]: They said to

[Troy Headrick]: give it to you. They didn't need it. I think we've informed them with this. Their legal counsel has copied on this.

[Conor Casey]: Yeah. No, I see that.

[Troy Headrick]: Yeah. I want to express a need for the

[Gina Galfetti]: general gist.

[Conor Casey]: I saw it like it had to be cloak and dagger to pull it, create some sort of loophole that all of sudden it

[Brian Minier]: was kind of like a

[Shawn Sweeney]: duration.

[Gina Galfetti]: You have a lot going on in there dealing

[Troy Headrick]: with this. Yeah. No. I understand.

[Gina Galfetti]: Partners that that was that was the thing.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Prior to so we're not. I'm doing And they say

[Conor Casey]: they didn't get notified.

[Gina Galfetti]: Just tell me what we're told.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Under duration, should it say the MOU shall remain in effect as long as individuals are detained pursuant to ICE detainees or detainers? Right.

[Troy Headrick]: The detainer is what creates a detainee.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Okay, thank you.

[James Gregoire]: I I am glad we're getting out in front of it.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Mhmm. Mhmm.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So please provide written confirmation by what date do we want well, this would be written confirm confirmations from both parties. Yeah. Or just POC. Acknowledging receipt of this letter confirming the department's intent to comply. So this is going to commissioner Murad. And then it's being copied to back human rights commission ACLU in the legal counsel for DOC.

[Shawn Sweeney]: I think we should have them respond that they received it as well so that we know it's in hand for them to see as well.

[Troy Headrick]: I'm just trying to figure out how I would do that, because this is addressed exclusively through practitioner. So I'm just I'm not opposed to it, but I I

[Alice M. Emmons]: think it's

[Troy Headrick]: I mean, they're going to know it anyway, because they're going to we can

[Conor Casey]: let those

[Shawn Sweeney]: Right. Well, I think it's important for them to see the documentation.

[Alice M. Emmons]: It was your copy.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Yeah. I understand. That's why I'm. The same. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. They are.

[Troy Headrick]: So state certain thoughts on that?

[Alice M. Emmons]: If we send this out, they say Wednesday, we send this out today or tomorrow, then we have given till the sixteenth for them to finalize and execute the MOU. So let's put this again.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Confirmation will be seated should be next week.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Should be next week because then it gives them

[Shawn Sweeney]: I would do

[Alice M. Emmons]: it Are two

[Shawn Sweeney]: we emailing it or are we emailing it or are we sending it by let? I

[Troy Headrick]: don't have an answer for that.

[Conor Casey]: Because if

[Shawn Sweeney]: we're doing it, then we can give them a day or two. If you're some Sunday night

[Alice M. Emmons]: DOC is coming in tomorrow at 10:30. So we don't need to get the updates and get it printed.

[Troy Headrick]: Updating as we speak.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Perfect. Hand it to.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Know. Ask the meeting for next week. The other's been confirmed.

[Brian Minier]: March 4?

[Gina Galfetti]: Yeah. You guys added bonus,

[Alice M. Emmons]: You might wanna give them a heads

[Troy Headrick]: up. Who do you want to how do you want this signed?

[Alice M. Emmons]: Should it be all three of us?

[Troy Headrick]: Brian, if you wanna take this. Or if you want the committee?

[Shawn Sweeney]: It's not the whole committee.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Think it should be the committee. The House Committee on Corrections and Institution Rights to Formally Commute, so communicate. So this is coming from the committee.

[Shawn Sweeney]: Yeah. It should be from the insurance.

[Troy Headrick]: Is it simple as respectfully the House Committee for Corrections and Institution? There you go.

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: Got it.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Let Shawn go first

[Shawn Sweeney]: and Troy then

[James Gregoire]: or Alice, last year when we had that informal immigration meeting in Room 11 and it was incredibly helpful. I kind of feel, don't and I just wanna throw it out there that Brett Strokes down at the Vermont Law is one of the people Vermont Law is one of the people who are really stepping up right now to to, you know, get to our facilities and represent these people. So as a CC, he's as important to me as Jill, Martin Diaz. But I just I don't know if we should include them or not, but if it was me, I would include them.

[Troy Headrick]: They haven't been part of the process. That's the only thing.

[James Gregoire]: Right.

[Troy Headrick]: Everybody cc'd right now has been in the room.

[James Gregoire]: Is what?

[Troy Headrick]: Has in

[Gina Galfetti]: the room. Yes. Okay. All right.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So it's like, get your

[Shawn Sweeney]: Is there any kind of downside then now?

[James Gregoire]: I wouldn't be surprised if Joe's kinda shares this with them anyway on some level, but okay. I just wanted I wanted to say that.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Brian?

[Brian Minier]: This could be scrapped. It's just in the sphere of tone policing. If we're trying to be nice under conclusion, do we acknowledge or do we appreciate that? Is it their willingness or is it their desire to group a partnership? Or do we care? And I'm only asking because of previous changes. Where? Under conclusion on page three, beginning of the fourth paragraph, the committee acknowledges, where do we appreciate them? That is their willingness or is it their desire to improve the partnership? I'm trying to ask how nice we're trying to be.

[James Gregoire]: I'm I I think tone is always important. I think that I'm with you, Brian. I would lean into a little positivity.

[Troy Headrick]: Maybe suggesting appreciates rather than acknowledges

[Brian Minier]: and desire rather than willingness. Those are the two questions I put out.

[Troy Headrick]: The substitutes both moving us more towards positivity? Correct. Okay.

[Brian Minier]: You're feeling it. I can see that.

[Shawn Sweeney]: I can see some mustard.

[Troy Headrick]: I wrote this. Keep that in mind.

[Brian Minier]: The mustache is ripping.

[Troy Headrick]: I see it.

[Shawn Sweeney]: I think the

[Gina Galfetti]: flames should suck, but I do appreciate it as good. I just have willingness and desire to do things. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Fair enough. Willing to do this.

[Brian Minier]: Half a little and all that.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Willingness is better than

[Gina Galfetti]: I do.

[Troy Headrick]: I do. Appreciate. I've kept it at willingness. Yeah. Not saying that's I said, what is it to do this? Indicating where I am with the edits.

[James Gregoire]: Alright. And and and one last thing I gotta say. So the formal structure and oversight are now required. I get it. I just wanna ask, is that really necessary? But it might be, but I just wanna throw it out there.

[Alice M. Emmons]: What is this again? The what? The

[James Gregoire]: last sentence in conclusion.

[Troy Headrick]: Formal structure and oversight are not required. I'm fine with that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina Galfetti]: That's business.

[James Gregoire]: Oh, Galfetti. All right. Then go ahead.

[Alice M. Emmons]: I think it just adds, like, we really mean it. Yeah. I mean, we mean it.

[James Gregoire]: Know, all right, good.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Mean, you're be nice for so long, Shawn.

[Troy Headrick]: You can tell people what to do,

[Gina Galfetti]: but you can be disguised about it, that's all. We'll add a PS, you guys are cool. And that'll kinda balance it off, right?

[Alice M. Emmons]: All right, all right, all So committing, okay, with us sending this letter to DOC.

[James Gregoire]: Can we just put a heart emoji at the end

[Brian Minier]: of the paper copy?

[Alice M. Emmons]: Paper copy.

[Troy Headrick]: I'll get it on letterhead.

[Gina Galfetti]: Small letterhead. And

[Troy Headrick]: I'll get a scan version And as

[Shawn Sweeney]: then now should you put the house institutions and corrections and have a list of those? Do we?

[Troy Headrick]: Oh, do I have space?

[Shawn Sweeney]: Again, that's representing folks from all over the state.

[Troy Headrick]: I think

[Gina Galfetti]: it's a lot. Even if you just spoke from the committee that

[Shawn Sweeney]: They can look at all.

[Troy Headrick]: Right. Now It doesn't I

[Gina Galfetti]: have a formal you

[Troy Headrick]: have Okay. You're gonna do you want to It should stop.

[Conor Casey]: Yes. Chair. I just

[Troy Headrick]: want to leave some space now. Yeah. It's chair. It's chair. Do you want your name then? Right?

[Alice M. Emmons]: It's I'm gonna Yeah.

[Troy Headrick]: Okay. Yeah. Mhmm. Just signed a contract.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Thank you, Troy, for doing all this work.

[Troy Headrick]: Yep. I will. Really appreciate it. You know, anybody wants to see the six page where you

[Alice M. Emmons]: do it. Six pages. So Troy, I really do appreciate this.

[Troy Headrick]: The system's a lot better

[Brian Minier]: I acknowledge your compliance with the request.

[Alice M. Emmons]: And your willingness to do this. We don't know. So we are back. Today is Wednesday. We don't have much on the floor.

[Brian Minier]: Don't think One or four?

[Alice M. Emmons]: Oh, you got your amendment.

[Troy Headrick]: No, that's gone. Delaying it at least one administrative day.

[Alice M. Emmons]: They are.

[Troy Headrick]: At least. Two things And

[Alice M. Emmons]: then we have Shawn's thing delayed. So we may I'm just thinking of our schedules getting backed up a little. Is there anything that we need committee conversations on? Because tomorrow, we're scheduled for 08:30 for the people board. That's a new draft. I don't want to overwork the committee, but I just don't sneer. Don't smile.

[Troy Headrick]: He's having a hard knock.

[Alice M. Emmons]: Why? Because you're overworking.

[Troy Headrick]: No. No. Not even approaching.

[Gina Galfetti]: I was going to suggest you get back into pretrial. We can. No.

[Alice M. Emmons]: We're talking about that. Anything in gender equity, we left it with gender equity. You don't know this, Troy. We left it that Gina As and Brian

[Conor Casey]: soon as Hillary gets a draft on Friday, we're going meet.

[Hailey (Legislative Counsel)]: They're going to meet on Friday.

[Shawn Sweeney]: So we'll meet on Friday.

[Conor Casey]: What am I missing here? Two And books from DOC?

[James Gregoire]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina Galfetti]: It's, like, half the book Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons]: It's about And the pretty is gonna be We're not gonna deal with that until next week next till we come back. Parole board, I'd love to finish up parole board this week. And then that would leave, where are we with tele John coming back tomorrow? He's coming back at one, right? Yes, that is Chris. John Gray?

[Shawn Sweeney]: And

[Gina Galfetti]: Haley's gonna guess myself and Kevin regarding

[Shawn Sweeney]: Are we still on the track?

[Gina Galfetti]: Correct.

[Alice M. Emmons]: I just wanna I'm not sure if we need to come back after the floor. Well, I know. No, you don't.

[Gina Galfetti]: Thanks, Will.

[Alice M. Emmons]: So we're back here at 08:30 tomorrow morning.