Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: Welcome folks. This is House Corrections for the Institutions Committee. It's Wednesday, February 18. We are going to be working on the parole board issues that are outstanding. We had a committee discussion, I believe it was last week. And these are some of the issues that we were concerned about and wanting to resolve. One is their budget process and how that will work going forward, and trying to figure out what the exact program needs would be and what the process would be for whole board submitting their budget to who, to whom, and what that process would look like. Would it go directly to DOC? Would it go directly to the Secretary of the Agency of Tribal We haven't made any decision on that at all. So we will need to talk about that. And then the other issue was legal representation. And what is the legal representation for? Is it to help them in training? Or is it also to help them when there's cases before them that they actually have access to legal advice? And if they do, how that would work. So So those were kind of the outstanding issues that we were looking at. This doesn't look good because Mary Jane has this look on her face like, what? Sorry, I've been just staring off. I was like Probably didn't hear you.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: You're not supposed to go sit today.

[Speaker 0]: And reading

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: my notes and prepping.

[Speaker 0]: And prepping. So those are the outstanding issues. The bill itself, we haven't really spent much time lately on it in terms term limitation, the number of members to be on the parole board. I don't even remember other parts to it because we haven't looked at it. Oops, that is not the right folder. This is the right folder. So we haven't really looked at it too much. We do have draft 1.1 on it. But I think once we resolve these outstanding issues, then we can go back and get another draft incorporating what is discussed today and incorporating the previous changes for that. So I'm going to ask Mary Jane to come on up. I believe that there has been some conversations with the respective parties that have occurred that may resolve some of these issues, hopefully. So Mary Jane, welcome. And if you could identify yourself for the record.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, committee. Mary Jane Ainsworth, the director of the Vermont Pearl Board. So we have had some conversations between myself, AHS DOC, and the attorney general's office to discuss the legal representation issue and the budgetary formulating the budget. And I'd like to touch upon legal representation first, if that's okay with all of you. So there is currently a $25,000 appropriation for legal services for the board in the current FY 'twenty six budget. It has been removed for the FY 'twenty seven budget.

[Speaker 0]: So the 25,000 is still there For this year. In the current budget?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yes. It expires in June year? Correct. For FY 'twenty seven budget, that 25,000 has been eliminated. So there has been nothing encumbered of the 25,000 in the current fiscal year.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Correct. So the goal would be for these funds to be used for a pilot year to hire external legal counsel, not being the attorney general's office or a DOCHS attorney, but a external legal counsel to provide training and legal advice to the board. The Attorney General's office would then help the board and DOC with a simplified bid process to identify and contract with appropriate external legal support, as the state already has such contracts in support of other similarly sized boards. And then I'll go ahead.

[Speaker 0]: So I just want clarity on that. This has been my bugaboo. It may be only mine. It may not be the committee's. But when there is particularly a revocation hearing, the offender has legal counsel, DOC has legal counsel, and the board does not.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So how does that get resolved? I think it's necessary for the board to have legal counsel at the revocation hearings. I believe that if the board is properly trained in conducting the hearings, the rules of evidence, the rules of due process, then the legal counsel would be there to provide the training, the legal assistance after the fact or any litigation, if any were to arise. But I feel like a properly trained board would be the better place and have our chair, the chair of the hearing, run the hearings. I feel a legal counsel may be helpful to, if there's an issue, to reach out to during a hearing, but not to have them at every single hearing. I think it would muck up the hearing process.

[Speaker 0]: But you're saying there needs to be some ability for the board at the revocation hearing to have access to legal counsel if they need it?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: If they need it, if I would say that would be a very small need. We haven't needed it during hearings. Could maybe one time some questions have come up, but usually the chair or myself can mitigate those questions, or we postpone the hearing to get that advice. I think there is movement in the due process, in due process, that allows that we could postpone the hearing, that we could either take a break or postpone it to another day, get that legal advice, then reconvene the hearing. There is not a need to finish that hearing right then and there.

[Speaker 0]: But the caveat to that is you need that legal training upfront. Yes. And if you don't have that, that puts more pressure on the back end of really needing legal advice.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: And that's why we really wanted to focus this $25,000 on that training capacity and to build those training modules and the training information to the board members.

[Unknown committee member]: Questions?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Sure. How ongoing would that then need to be? You just mentioned training modules. But how often are you going to think about refreshing this or require the board to maybe do an additional training?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I think it's always good to look at those, especially on an annual basis, or update it if a new legal case comes out. Because if there's been a challenge, there may be some changes that need to happen based on some litigation. So it's hard to say because it's hard to say how often litigation and lawsuits are going to happen and case law is going to change things. But it's always good to look at least annually and to have those refresher trainings.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And there are no guidelines like National, for example, about like for medical doctors, I'm thinking about CME, right? Like how many hours you

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: should do every year for your fiber?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: There are not any guidelines nationally. I have been looking at that. I did talk to the president of the Association of Prolene Authorities International. I spoke to him on Friday. National Institute of Corrections is really investing more into the pro board member trainings, which include some of those modules. It's not where we have those specific training hours. So that's something that we need to set up as a board. And the language in this bill and this additional funding to have some of the drafting the training components will be extremely helpful.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Kevin, do

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: you have a recommendation for a group to fill that void with the 25,000?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I don't have a recommend. I don't think it'll necessarily be a group. I think it's going to be we would look to go out for bid for an attorney to help. This would be specifically around the due process and the violations piece of the training. I think having an attorney to do that, also possibly look at our violation process, our scheduling process and so forth, would be very helpful as well. So

[Speaker 0]: it'd be very limited in terms of what part of the I planning board

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: think as a start. And then we would then work on through the budgetary process in next year, look at collaboration to see what scope of resources may be needed to look for FY '28. So it would be a start.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Twenty five thousand, I didn't think I'd ever say this. It's chump change in the scheme of attorneys and that. So what do you think you would get for the 25,000?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I think we could get significant. I think we could get enough hours to look at to help develop some of this training, the basic outlines. I would have to defer to one of the attorneys in the room that might be able to speak more of our slides, but I think we could get. This would be this is a good way to get some additional training for the board.

[Speaker 0]: So the pilot project would be for legal for train training the board members on the legal aspects around due process and the violation process. So it be very limited and very narrow. So that's one piece.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: And then the attorney general's office would then support us and provide litigation guidance to the board.

[Speaker 0]: So that brings up my conflict there.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: I never even pulled up a statute until now. But I'm looking at the parole board and how it fits underneath the Department of Corrections. And it's parole board independence as a section of that, right? It's pretty explicit. Parole board in a pending parole revocation hearing, the parole board should not be counseled by assistant attorney generals or the Department of Corrections. But then it's weird because the next part says, but if they are, you to make sure the defender general is in the mix on it, right?

[Speaker 0]: Training, right?

[Conor Casey (Member)]: That's for the training part there.

[Speaker 0]: Right. What's happening? That's for the training. That's not for a hearing.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Well, in a pending revocation hearing, the court shall not be counseled by assistant attorney generals or Department of Corrections?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: The next part is for? If the attorney general

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: provides

[Unknown committee member]: the training.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: You need to get the Defender General in the mix anyways, right, according to current statute?

[Speaker 0]: It's training.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. But not if you use an outside counsel.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: But not if you use an outside counsel.

[Speaker 0]: But the outside counsel is not going to be there for the parole board hearings or revocation. It's only going be there what's being proposed. It's only going to be there for training around due process and the process around violations. It's what I understood with the pilot project.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: And some legal advice, if legal advice is needed.

[Speaker 0]: And if some legal advice is needed, would that be done during would that attorney be able to be reached during a hearing that you might run into a situation where you need some legal advice?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Potentially. However, if that attorney couldn't be reached or it wasn't something that we needed to resolve right there in that moment, we could postpone to get that legal advice.

[Speaker 0]: It's a concern I've had, I think some members have had, is when the parole board is involved in a hearing. And if the defender, the offender, has legal advice representation. DOC has legal representation at the table. Parole board has none. I have trouble

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: with that. DOC doesn't have legal representation at the table anymore. It's just the parolee that has legal representation at the table. DOC is just presenting the evidence to be the information to be reviewed.

[Speaker 0]: So the testimony we've heard from the AT's office, there were four folks in the past that were there. Two of those folks have now gone to DOC and then two are left to represent DOC. And no, so Todd is shaking his head no. So I'm going to go to the Attorney General's Office and let Todd answer this one. And Todd, if you could identify yourself. Thank

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: you, Chair. Todd Daylose, Assistant Attorney General. In the past, and I would say as recently as four to six months ago, the AGO put four individuals in the DOC litigation unit. They work for DOC. They're assistant attorneys general. We talked a little bit about that divided style of guidance. Two of those folks would be responsible for representing probation and parole parole hearings. And two of those folks would be responsible for supporting the board. More recently, DOC has requested that we no longer represent PMP for the board, which is a return to past practice, so I understand that. And so those four folks are just continuing to carry on with the rest of the work they do representing DOC and litigation, counseling, etcetera. So it's not as though the positions don't move. This was not a full time element of their work. It was an episodic piece of work that they did. And so they're just continuing to provide legal services for DOC. I just want to be clear that no positions moved around.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: I think

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: this was an ask, but

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: do you have any documentation of episodic that was?

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: We don't because we just work for DOC. So DOC assigns the work, and as they shift it around, shift around what we focus on.

[Speaker 0]: I go back to what Conor said, the poll board is an independent bot. Granted, under DOC, their budgets incorporated within the DOC budget. But by statute, they're an independent body. So my concern is that they have legal counsel that is not connected to DOC in any way. The legal counsel is connected to DOC. You got the Fox

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Garden And

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: I think, Chair, the proposal is that that independence, both for training and out of pocket advice, would be piloted through this contract. The reason we're involved is that a different element of our office would help put the bid together because we have helped other boards like the Department of Labor and Batteries Board, the Criminal Justice Boards, where they need this kind of independence hearing officer kind of support and or training. We've helped put those contracts together.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Weren't much

[Speaker 0]: were those contracts?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: I can get them.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: I didn't grab them this morning. I apologize for that. But I can send them to Tate. They're all available. So I would say part of the issue that we ran into with the $25,000 originally was that it didn't get to the general counsel part of our office that does a lot of contracting support. And it wasn't until the very just before we started putting this legislation together and that we made that connection that there are other legal firms out there providing this work very similarly who could be interested in picking this up. So where the RFP didn't work, we do feel comfortable that we'll be able to find some work for this. And as Mary Jane testified, then I think DOC and AHS are going to talk about resource requirements and figure out how that factors into the budget bill. Yes.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: They got a proposal on the table just based on financial constraints here, because it seems reasonable to me that the parole board should be able to have an in house counsel full time? Is there not enough work for them, do you think? I feel like one position could both provide the trainings and counsel at the revocation hearings.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I can't speak to that. It wasn't put forward in the governor's budget. So that's why we just currently have the $25,000

[Conor Casey (Member)]: But in a perfect world, would you have enough work for an in house attorney, do you think?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I don't know if we would for a full time in house attorney. I am not 100 on that. But having one that we can consult with would be very helpful.

[Speaker 0]: Well, also, we have to keep in mind, and maybe this is for a specific legal I don't wanna say the legal in house, but we're gonna have a lot of changes on the parole board in the next year. We're gonna have a new chair. There's a couple long term members who are retiring. They have the institutional knowledge, three people, and we're gonna lose all that. And it's really bringing those new people up to speed in terms what the legal requirements are and what the requirements are of the board and how you assess someone's risk and how you determine whether someone should be released on parole and what those conditions would be. And all within the laws of Vermont. And you can't expect a lay person to know all that, particularly brand new to a board that maybe knows absolutely nothing about corrections or the laws. And that's what concerns me. At least for the short term. Once folks can get some of the Just like being a legislator. The longer you're here, the more you understand, the less help you're going to need from legal counsel. As you start processing how it works and you start learning how to read the language and you start understanding, oh yeah, there's another part of statute that has an impact. When you're brand new as a legislator, you're clueless on that. And a person coming in on the parole board is probably pretty clueless about DOC and the judiciary and someone's rights. And that's what concerns me about the board not having legal counsel or support around them. Because you're putting a lot of pressure on the executive director, and you're putting a lot of pressure on a brand new chair that may not know the topic.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Mary? Has the board ever had a case filed against them because of a decision that was made? So Yes. What does that look like in the scheme of attorney's cost and other rules? And we may have an answer over here.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: So as with any other state entity, if they are sued, attorney general's office represents them. And it's a different branch the attorney general's office. The civil division covers, whether it's the role board or the Natural Resources Board, sometimes the judiciary. We handle all of those cases.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And you take here as a cost? Yeah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I mean,

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: it's all baked into

[Speaker 0]: So where are we submitting on what Mary Jane put on the table about a pilot project? It would be training for the board members around due process and violation process. It would be a pilot project to hire an outside counsel with that.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Troy? Supportive. I would want something in there, some sort of evaluative component at the end of it all. Was 25 ks enough? Did it suffice to get the training that feels sufficient? Some sort of report back. I'm hesitant to think 25 ks is enough to provide an ongoing sort of this sort of both ad hoc representation as well as training. It'd be fine, wasn't it?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: James? I would agree. I don't know if the '25 is even close enough, but I also want to

[Unknown committee member]: know who the training is coming from.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: You talked about the different national organizations, etcetera. Is it tapping into their resources? Is it something you're making up on from literature from here, literature from there? How that program is gonna look and who's delivering it is something I would be very interested in.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: We're moving, though, towards a potential model where both this as needed representation and training are provided by the same

[Speaker 0]: Same with the fleet, yeah.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: So I don't know if I would use a national organization for that as much as I would use an outside attorney service somewhere nearby. Somebody. I mean, I don't have

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: a horse in a race as far as who does it. I want to know what the plan is.

[Speaker 0]: Well, there's two different things for training. You've got training in terms of being a board member in topics, but also you've got the training on the legal side of how you approach those topics and what's required. So that's a whole different entity than just the regular training of being a pro board member. That's where your national piece comes in, I would assume, the training of being a regular board member. Right? Or not?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Right. I would say the national piece comes in for the regular board member. I think also having an in house curriculum is one of my dreams that I would like to that is one of my goals to create is a training manual for board members. When they come on, they get the right now they get our policies and procedures manual, our structured decision making framework training. This violations due process would then go in that and then keep expanding onto it with the conditions guidance that we've gotten over the years from national entities and so forth and expand on to this. And I think with this legal component, having a set legal counsel to help draft this and have somebody to keep the continuity of the advice and the training and just to answer the questions and having that available is much better than necessarily looking at some of this on the national level, but definitely to tap into some of those national trainings to build more a comprehensive how to onboarding. Because right now a lot of it's on the job training basically.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I think I heard you say that so far there have been very few situations where you needed immediate answer from counsel because you could postpone if you had to. That's what I'm hearing. So since we don't have excess budget, I don't know why we want to keep throwing more money at something that doesn't sound like Mary Jane's asking for. She's asking asking for 25,000 for some training that would result in a manual that would be maintained year after year. Well, that's what I'm hearing is that it'd be up

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: And to have some access to legal advice, to have that continuity of someone to go to for that legal advice. I think in the moment, in the hearings right now, we have the institutional knowledge of our chair and our vice chair and myself who can brainstorm and pivot. Some of the newer board members don't have that institutional knowledge yet. But as Madam Chair stated, our chairman is leaving this year when his replacement has been not. Our vice chair is not seeking, I don't believe is seeking reappointment next year when her term or in two years, I don't know if it's next year when her term is up. And that leaves us with two, The rest of our board, one other board member, I'm not sure where he's at, that has the longer knowledge, but then the rest of our board is relatively new within the last five to ten years.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: So if the current model goes through, you have 25 ks, assume you get that. If you run out of money halfway through the year, what happens? Do you go back to status quo?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: We would go back to our current model. We would take the knowledge and all the information that we had. We would put it together. And then we would still have the attorney general's office for legal counsel.

[Speaker 0]: Brian?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: This goes back to what Troy and James were talking about. But to the degree that we're going to look at what happens this year, say we do this pilot, what kind of reports that could you envision? Can see a number of hours that we use counsel for training, number of times that we had to go to them for a case. But I don't know what that tells you. I'm just trying to picture how we would know what you've used and what you were missing or what you needed.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I think having a report back would definitely be able to tell a lot of where did the attorney general's office have to step, where were they stepping in? How much time did the attorney general's office spend on and what type of cases? What were we using for training? Were there other legal needs that couldn't be met? I think definitely doing a analysis both of product and cost, I think would be very beneficial. And I think it would help drive some of these numbers, the unknown numbers.

[Speaker 0]: So we can have another draft. We're gonna have a draft made up that incorporates this pilot project and some of the structure around it. Also, I heard that ideally, there should be yearly training, ideally, in a report back. I would put out the 25,000 to the committee that maybe that's not enough to really accomplish what we want. We might wanna try looking at 50,000

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: and

[Speaker 0]: see what we might be able to cobble together so that it's successful. You can't keep nickel and diming because you get nothing. The majority went out for an RFP with 25,000, had no bids.

[Unknown committee member]: I don't wanna

[Speaker 0]: go down that road again. If that happened again, a waste of time and resources to put an RFP together and then go out and not get anything good. I don't wanna repeat of that. I want it to be successful. And I want the parole board to have the tools that they need to work with. Because again, I go back, members of the parole board, the five of them, the seven of them, four of them is three, however you look at it. There's a lot of weight on those folks making a decision on a person's liberty that's under state custody. I keep going back to that.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I think the 50,000.

[Speaker 0]: Anything else? We'll work with Hillary. I'll recommend that Hillary will get this YouTube, come in with a draft. Now let's transition to budgeting.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So budgeting, we also discussed budgeting as well. Have been in, I am now participating. I've been in the last two quarters, I participated in budgeting with the Department of Corrections Accounting Division. We're invested to continue those quarterly budget meetings. The chief operations officer from AHS is going to join me at those hearings. I mean, not hearings, sorry. Hearings on the brain from this morning. At those meetings. And that's where we will work through those budgetary needs. We've been talking about a communication stream to make sure those needs are distributed to the appropriate folks at both DOC and AHS. And we're building in some redundancies to ensure that those are communicated.

[Speaker 0]: So you've agreed. You've worked with the parties here to work that through. Would it be helpful if we had language in the bill for session law, which is not in the green books, but would lay out the parameter of what we would like to see over the next few years in terms of the budget process for the parole board budget to lay out the process you've just laid out.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I don't think it's necessary. Now we've had those conversations. I don't see it necessary to put it in session law. I would leave that up to the committee. I think we now have a process in place. All the appropriate individuals have been at the table and we have been having those conversations.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: If all those food can go away, we're just going to have that knowledge of going for.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Mary, I I would assume that it would get passed down, but I understand. Well, that's my concern because we can assume that it

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: may be if your daughter just would like the good hard work that you've put into it, and if it works, to continue on. And then also, like, oops, we don't have anyone that has an understanding of what we've done.

[Speaker 0]: And one thing we've toyed with, look at that, is a line item. Separate, totally separate line item for the parole board, which has some real complications too. But you do get some administrative help from DOC. You're housed within DOC. They pay your fee for space, that type of thing. Bank, they pay. So if you had a totally separate line item in the state budget, that would all have to come out of your budget, which means an increase to the 600,000, that's your current budget. And so we're trying to find the middle of the road that there is a known process for how the parole board submits their budget to meet their needs. And that's why I'm thinking a session law for a couple of years, I hate to do this, but a report back, if we remember there's a report back to see how it's working. Because you never know, it's a general election year. You never know what's gonna happen. And administrations change, and then everybody changes. Your secretary changes, your commissioners, everything changes. And even that can change within a current administration where folks have decided to move on to some other positions.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: But even within our committee, we should know whoever going forward will be sitting at these seats should have an understanding of how the process goes.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah, I'm with Mary, I think it's You know, it feels like all these are like the right now kind of solutions, but not the right solution. And I think the right solution is still full independence. Move it out of Chapter 28 to Title III or something, where all these other independent commissions are. And I know it comes with like an administrative burden. But until you have like Until you're able to make your own decisions about what you need to meet your needs, you're never going to be truly independent. I really don't think so.

[Speaker 0]: Perfect, folks. Step up at months.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Unless it's broke, don't fix it. Broke. It is broke. I'm hearing that. They're asking for $25,000 for training

[Speaker 0]: and

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: setting up policies so they can pass that on to new board members. I'm not hearing that it's broke. If we get sued, God forbid, the Attorney General steps in and covers that liability. Maybe I'm mishearing.

[Speaker 0]: Other folks?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I'm okay with suggesting 50, you know, but Well, we've kind

[Speaker 0]: of moved on to their budgeting process.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: And we're forget 50, right, Mike? That's the other thing?

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. So if we look at the budgeting process in terms of what they've worked out. Because we've started looking at this, the agency of human services started paying attention over the next couple of weeks. Then they started talking and figuring out a process that Mary Jane or the executive director could go forward with their budget needs. And it gets worked up the chain, basically, to the sector of the agency of human services. So, we could do language in session law that would lay out that process for the next couple of years. With the intent of a recommendation being made back to the legislature, whether or not the parole board should be a separate entity with their separate line item. We give a trial run on this new budgeting process. And a recommendation at the end of a couple years, I'm just putting this out as a thought, that it comes back with whether or not a line item, separate total line item, or the total independence of the parole board that's not under DOC. Just a thought.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: I didn't even open the can of worms on volunteers.

[Speaker 0]: Why didn't you get into your per What is your per diem for each member?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: $100 per day of work unless you're a chair, and the chair is $20,500 per year. And that has not been the chair has not been updated since 2006, I believe it was, and the per diem for the members was increased five, six years ago.

[Speaker 0]: Anybody here wanna volunteer to be on the per work?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, not me.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Didn't think anybody got paid worse than us.

[Speaker 0]: You're working twenty hours a day. So where are we in terms of the budgeting process? The thought that I put on the table. Is that dead? Is there other thoughts? The plan in

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: place that we we folks are looking at in two years or that, but but then there's something that we can find whoever is sitting in these seats can follow and the other agencies have followed.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Agree. I agree with Mary.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Yeah. I'm sorry if you can't.

[Speaker 0]: No, that's fine. So does that also include looking to see with a recommendation of going forward with a separate line item or not? Right,

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: that would be

[Speaker 0]: part of it. They may decide, no, we don't want to go forward with the line item, or yeah, we do. Other folks? Makes sense.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: And again, I would think the budget would be based upon what the needs are. I've just thrown down to 25,000 or $50,000 in the actual line item budget.

[Speaker 0]: Is there a budget right now that I saw in the FY '27? Budget was about 600,000, 601 something.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I believe it was I think, FY '26. I don't have that notebook on me. It was around 611,000.

[Speaker 0]: It was For the current budget?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: For the current

[Speaker 0]: budget. That's what I saw also for FY '27.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I wouldn't do it. The only thing that would have probably changed for FY '27 would have been our staffing numbers. Our payroll and benefits.

[Speaker 0]: So folks are comfortable with language being drafted up, possibly law, to negate that budget process. There was something else with the parole board that I wanted to touch base on. I thought of it a little while ago, it slipped my mind. It was appointments, when an appointment is to be made from, for the governor. A process for the parole board of the executive director or the chair to wait to relay what recommendations?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I think

[Speaker 0]: that was

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: that was built in and

[Speaker 0]: That make it into the point one. Don't have it on Prior to appointing a member or upon notification, the governor would consult with the parole board and chair, with director and chair. Are you called the executive director or director?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I believe director. Some folks call me the executive director, but I believe in statute. I am the it's the director.

[Speaker 0]: So we have DOC in the room, and we have the AG's office. Do you folks wanna weigh in? Anything on what you've just heard at all? I appreciate, madam chair. Please identify yourself. I'm sorry, the work issue, general counsel, department of corrections.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: We were part of the discussion and group that developed what director A. Morrissey just presented to you to support that approach.

[Speaker 0]: What about what we've proposed some of the changes, like with the legal advice, like putting in some, like maybe yearly training, a report back, at the training, and then the budgeting, what we just talked about, session law. And to do that type of what you've just agreed to in terms of the process of the budgeting the next couple years and then report back? I mean,

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: don't want to divert too far from our process. I can tell you that as far as your concerns about consistency and continuum, people change that are in seats, The pro board has been built in, at least for DOC's perspective, the internal budgeting reach out for both messaging out and receipt in of information. So they're now officially listed in the queue. So that has all been addressed internally for DOC purposes. So anytime anything goes out to any of the departments, Director Ainsworth will be included on that. So I don't really have an opinion either way. Thought call the reporting back, happy to supplement and assist director from his perspective on that reporting. I know you probably wanna hear from her more so than asking. If I may just clarify one point that we touched upon, DOC has requested, the statute says they may have the assistance of the attorney generals at the formal board. And I want to be clear that we have recently pulled that request out and are not asking for any assistance. We're trying to align the process that we do with the state's attorneys in probation violations. And so there's no lawyers there for DOC. And I just wanna be mindful to point out that the parole board issues the convictions for these individuals. The Department of Corrections enforces those convictions, supervises the individuals, and then assists them in compliance with those terms. So we don't create what the rules are, we just enforce them for the court.

[Speaker 0]: So, are you referring to, to the May or the Chao, where are you referring to? Because it's not in the bill that we're looking.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: It's not, no, it's not. I think it was in the statutes that the representative was referring to earlier, where the training component is in there. It's in that section approximately, and I can locate it for you. But it says that the Department of Corrections may ask either the state's attorneys or the attorney generals to assist in a violation hearing. Prior to COVID, that wasn't a thing. And then as cases have become complicated, justice for reinvestment has worked and the complexity of the case have increased, the department made a request that the parole officers needed a little support in the evidentiary challenges that they were receiving from the Defender General's plea. So unwinding from that and taking our officers out from being prosecutors in this case, because that's not their role. So we're trying to go back to, and I think attorney Davis referred to past practice in resignation. There's no need for legal counsel to be there for the department. We factually go in and explain what we've seen, attest to what our allegation is in relation to a violation, and then the global board handles that information and requests what they need to make a determination.

[Speaker 0]: So are you requesting that this current statute be changed? Because if you are, this is the vehicle to do it in this bill.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: We are not requesting that change. We just made that change internally to align all of our, so our field officers weren't confused as to what the different shifting burden was. We needed to keep them aligned with what the task was, either enforcement and supervision of probation conditions, the judicial conditions, or parole board conditions. But I wouldn't say that if things changed in the law otherwise and changed the trajectory of the parole board's purview, we may need to look at that again. So I don't know if I can ask for any adjustment there.

[Speaker 0]: I just want to be clear. I know Conor, you're probably scrolling through trying to find it, right?

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Oh no, I was looking at my email. I

[Speaker 0]: was depending on you. I don't mind. Did you have your hand up, Brian?

[Unknown committee member]: No, ma'am.

[Speaker 0]: Todd in AG's office, do you want to weigh in?

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: Thank you, Chair Todd Booth from the Attorney General's office. Nothing to add to the proposal, and we don't have a position on how the budget moves. The administration.

[Speaker 0]: So I know we don't have legal counsel here, but I want the committee to get focused. So I want the committee to go out draft 1.1, page five fifty nine, and start reading it. And Mary Jane, you can move out of the hot seat. But we've got the folks here. This doesn't deal with anything we talked about today. This deals with the structure of the board in terms of their powers and responsibilities and also the makeup of the board. So, want folks to get refocused. So, if you can pull out H559, number 1.1. And while we have folks already here in the room and we have some time, I want folks to start line by line. So section one is the powers and responsibilities. And it's the powers and responsibilities of the commissioner, so commissioner of DOC. And it would be up to the commissioner to provide regular training for the board. So if folks can read that section. So what people think it? Who provides the regular training for the board? What this one? Private, what's in front of us?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: The commissioner's. Yeah. The commission. Line it up. Right?

[Speaker 0]: Yep.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I'm I mean, I'm not exactly sure who's providing it.

[Speaker 0]: Mary Jane?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I that in this area is more specific around certain areas around criminogenic substance use, the language, but it's more specific around those areas coming in as subject matter experts to help train in those areas.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, you're talking about the subject.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: It's not all the training for the board. It's just specific training.

[Speaker 0]: It's specific for criminogenic behavior, mental health disorders, substance use treatment, trauma informed work with victims of crime and serious crime rehab. So, we're anticipating that the commissioner of DOC is responsible for setting up some form of training to address those topics. And does the commissioner do that now? Yeah. We

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: have we have the corrections come in and use some trainings, but not specific to these trainings. I think this is to expand the working together. And I think we added the language of this would be a collaboration with the director and the chair of the parole board. So it would be a collaborative effort to ensure that this training, these trainings would meet the needs of the board and also meet the needs of the meet those topic areas as well.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Mary Jane, when she asked the question you said now and then you said some was being so which isn't?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I wouldn't call them necessarily specific trainings that the department isn't necessarily coming in doing specific training. They are coming in and discussing their policies and procedures with the board, which in a way, when I say it's in a way it is training the board, but it's more informing the board on their policies and procedures. So the board can better understand the language that the department is using and

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: so forth.

[Speaker 0]: So for the committee, what you're seeing in lines thirteen and seventeen is brand new language that doesn't exist now. And have we vetted this enough as a committee to understand this?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I don't know. Mean, I'm kind of thinking out loud from the description we just heard from Mary Jane. It sounds like something that is not going to be done by what we're picturing from the legal counsel, and the budget is not going to be housed within DOC for legal counsel. So this sounds like something separate from the legal training and the legal representation that we've been talking about. This is something that DOC is doing that's a different animal.

[Speaker 0]: But can DOC provide training for mental health disorders, substance use treatment?

[Conor Casey (Member)]: That'd be well passed, wouldn't it, if that's the case?

[Speaker 0]: I don't know. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, Laurie Fisher, General Counsel, Department of Corrections.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: The ask of the parole board to date, and my experience has been if they see something in the staffing report and the violation report and the information put forward that they don't understand in all of the subject areas, MJ is the Zealous advocate for her team and they'll reach out and say, Hey, we don't know enough about this. And then we send one of our subject matters over to their meeting to answer questions, explain what it is and the like. So it's not, as she says, it's not a formal training where today we're gonna have a module on, it's more of a Q and A FAQ style obligation just in response to the request. I read the new language to suggest that that's an ongoing, something that I would assume my team, the legal team would handle with director Ainsworth in setting up regular trainings on whatever topic areas they would like. Who pays for that? Well, I assume if it's my team and my position and it's covered by DOC in my world.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Oh, we can't assume we've got them now.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Well, I know how I'm paid, that's all I can tell you. And I would be the one providing training or the individual training. That's not a clear answer, but

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: so that was taking me back to what I was saying earlier about what I thought I now understood the training to be. But now we're back to it being a legal opinion from you and your team, right?

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: It would be, and I apologize if I'm not being clear on it, if risk containment is an example I know you've all heard about, and it's what's formerly Level C. It's a process that has been recently of buffed up, and that has caused some confusion by way of the information that comes in our report over to the board. So we would literally just be explaining what data we use, what we looked at, how it is applied, how we, for example, classification points, how people get their point systems and what their ratings are, if we say they're high risk or low risk. So it's kind of the underlying data explanation for the information so that they can probably analyze the information when they make their decision. It's not anything about guiding them on what they should decide or what the case law might ferret out. But it's more of what's the material the DOC is providing so that you understand it and apply it appropriately in your decision.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Thanks. But yeah, do not lose me in a gray area in between in terms of who's supposed to fund it and who's in charge. This doesn't sound like the final, like the 25 ks or the 50 ks or whatever it is. Yeah, so this would remain with DOC on their dime. I don't know. There's going be some gray areas, it seems like.

[Speaker 0]: So this is new language. This isn't in current statute. This is a new language. The commissioner of DOC is responsible to provide regular training to address these conditions that are on lines fifteen, sixteen, and 17. Now, I'm assuming that commissioner could reach out to other entities to provide this, but that would be within DOC's budget, I would assume. So we haven't really vetted this, so I don't know where the committee members are. This is the time to start thinking, folks, and not have it spoon fed to you. Troy?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Those are important topics for a parole board to be trained on as they're intersecting with parolees. So I have zero problem with I'm not too concerned about where this training is coming from, as written in here. I think they're important topics. Yeah, that's where I am.

[Speaker 0]: Other folks? Can we defend this language on the floor?

[Conor Casey (Member)]: I agree with Troy. They need to be trained in it. We're not giving a venue for any other training or money for it. So it's got to be The USA.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: Yeah, we have to.

[Speaker 0]: Once you get this funded, there's gonna be some retired criminal defense attorney that's gonna see this as a great retirement age. So the committee is comfortable with this language?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: I feel like it's a trick question.

[Speaker 0]: Only that.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: It's just right.

[Unknown committee member]: If you provide,

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: so it means the commissioners, DOC, so DOC is providing some form. In some form. So DOC is paying for it and organizing it, and it seems like it's pretty straightforward. If we get torn up, we get torn up. Mary will stand up and she'll figure it out

[Speaker 0]: us. Yeah.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: I

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: don't anticipate that. But at a certain point, we can put in statute what it is we wanna see, but I don't think it's our job to tell people how to implement it precisely. If you tell me to paint a wall, I don't need you to give me a 14 step process on how to paint the wall. Just tell me to paint the wall.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: I'm going need you to cut in the corners.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: He don't want to hire you now.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. So let's move on to section two.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Yep.

[Speaker 0]: And this is where the board membership is kind of being expanded, not. Because currently, it's five members with two alternates. Right. Now we're just going to seven, but no. The four arm is still three. And we did take out no member would serve more than two consecutive terms. We did also take out the term limits because that was in the original bill. Okay. In line six, we changed prior to appointing member. I think we changed that to a time notification. K. We'll change. Time notification.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Of a vacancy.

[Speaker 0]: Of a vacancy.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I'm gonna have that

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: note written in here that

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: we put that in there.

[Unknown committee member]: Yep.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Which was 16 PSA, 16 93.

[Speaker 0]: Yep. Because right now, there really isn't any consultation between the floor board and the 5th Floor in terms of what qualifications would really they'd like to have in a new brand new member. And then slides nine through 11, are changing the experience part of board members from correctional treatment, crime prevention or human relations to criminogenic behavior, mental health treatment, substance use disorder or serious crime rehabilitation. And then we're also adding that there would be on the board a balance of different knowledge and experience. Are we fine with number two?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Aside from a bot notification.

[Speaker 0]: Mhmm. Yep. Let's go to three. So for the language that's being crossed out, that's current law. Because we're getting rid of alternates, language that pertains to alternates.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Right. Mhmm. Yep. That's fairly straightforward.

[Speaker 0]: Top of page three, we're still keeping the three members of the board with constitutive form, even though we're expanding the board to seven, but we know that not all seven members are ever gonna be able to show up.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: And beyond that, we've heard how it's somewhat of a burden for members to serve from a time perspective. So this theoretically can lighten that a little bit.

[Speaker 0]: Mary, would you have someone else? Oh.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Just saying they will be rushing to get their funding done by the profession.

[Speaker 0]: Yes. And this is the next one that says how much the chair gets paid.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Which they're getting paid that now. Yep. That's not

[Speaker 0]: been in place since when?

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: Do you remember something?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: '72.

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: 20500.

[Speaker 0]: It's been in

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: place since 2005 or 2000 and Thank

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: you. Everybody else gets ready.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yeah, it says fiscal year 'six. So July 1, the votes are high according to this language. Now that's included from being a number that was sustained

[Speaker 0]: And then the previous

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: thirty four years before.

[Speaker 0]: Then the board members are getting $100 per damn

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: And board

[Speaker 0]: when was that done again?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Don't have an exact date.

[Speaker 0]: Ballpark is fine.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I would say within the last five to six years.

[Speaker 0]: Around 2020?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: 2019, 2020. And then that's when we also looked at the preparation day and giving them the per diem versus, I think it was $12.5

[Laurie Fisher (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Corrections)]: an hour per hour before.

[Speaker 0]: So it all got combined into a 100 pounds. What was it before? They had a per diem or was it just at $12.50?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: No. They had a per diem. I think they were getting $75 per diem. So I think it was just, I have to go back and look because it was slightly more than the $50 per diem that the other boards were getting, that all the other boards are getting.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: This is a good thing. It's not specific to only this, but a lot of these things that talk about nominal compensation numbers, if they were just, when they became law, if they were subjected to annual CPI adjustments, then they wouldn't become obsolete like this.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Yep.

[Speaker 0]: It's increasing your state budget.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yes. Why?

[Speaker 0]: It's increasing your state budget.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Alright.

[Speaker 0]: You wanna keep spending and why?

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: No. It's just I mean, that's but that's how you end up with these archaic numbers. I was on Saint Albans City Council, and I think members were getting $10 a month, month, which might have been reasonable in 1896. Is there room for the Is the language with our advertisers?

[Speaker 0]: Mary Jane?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: The board members do also get reimbursed for expenses, their mileage, as well if they need to travel. This used to be a larger number back when they were traveling to hearings. Now it's just possibly once a month to our office location in Waterbury.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Anything

[Speaker 0]: else on this one? Mine's eleven through thirteen. So they need to attend trainings, at least annually. And that would include trainings beyond what the Commissioner of Corrections needs to provide. So I want to make sure. Well, why

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: aren't you

[Unknown speaker]: saying that then?

[Speaker 0]: I don't know. That's my question. So Mary Jane, on lines 11 through 13 on page three, at least annually, each member would need to attend trainings designated by either you in collaboration with the chair of the board. That would be an additional training to what needs to be provided by the Commissioner of Corrections in Section one?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Yes, so this could be potential other security trainings that we might have online trainings that I might find and I may come across. Recently, I just sent out an email to around to our board members around a National Institute of Corrections training that I thought would be very helpful. It kind of gives an added responsive added to the board members to know when we do ask you to do a training, you do that training thing because there has been questions by board members of who tells me what to do when we instituted structured decision making framework. That was a big contentious item with some of our board members.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And if there's an

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: expense, who picks up the expense?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Right now for the trainings, I will tell you that I utilize any money that we have in our budget. If there's an expense of the training, I ensure that we have the funds for that. If we do not, then I look for some technical assistance that is free to us. I would definitely be cognizant of what money we do have in our budget before we spend that, before we get involved in those trainings.

[Speaker 0]: How much training is happening now on a yearly basis with the board? Can you say, Galfber? Is it happening or is it more sporadic?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I wouldn't say we have significant formal training. We do have monthly staff meetings. So we do use those as we look at the current issues that are facing the board. We also look at our structured decision making framework. We always follow-up on that and ensure we are doing quality assurance on that, which includes training, supplemental training on different domains of that tool. We do send, I've been able to look at our budget to send myself and two other members to the Association of Parole Authorities International Conference, which costs approximately $7,500 a year for the three of us to go. Would it be nice to be able to go to like the American Probation and Parole Association Conference as well to have more members go possibly,

[Conor Casey (Member)]: but

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I think that's an ask in future budget cycles to look at is it even a possibility. But I am I do look for technical assistance to have folks come in, which that assistance is usually sponsored by the Bureau of Justice Administration.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I mean, is sort of a leading question, but is it fair to assume that with just five members, many of whom are seasoned, like the cost would go up relatively soon when there are

[Unknown committee member]: seven, many of whom are new?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So currently this language that is in here was one of the proposed languages that I had because currently we treat all seven members equally. We schedule that equally throughout the month. So we don't treat them, so it wouldn't be a cost increase. I think even if we have the same amount of hearings regardless of whether it's seven or five. And I think in general counsel, pulled up that our other board members average about $10,000 a year for their per diem, for what they receive in per diem and expenses to be on

[Speaker 0]: the board.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: But I do not see, this is not gonna change the cost will not change because it's the current model that the board has been using for many, many years. They just divvy up the They use the quorum of three to divvy those seven members up over the hearings a month.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So did I miss how much total funding DOC provides for your team?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So in FY '26, we were Did I get it incorrect? Our appropriation was $611,000 I don't remember the exact number, but then DOC reduced that to a degree into our line items because they took some of the funds to pay for those other costs such as fee first, I'm assuming fee for space and other administrative costs that needed to be spread out for us to function as well.

[Speaker 0]: Out of that 600,000? Yes.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And is that what you go to to pay this kind of training? Yes. Okay, gotcha. And do you end up having, like, money at the end of the year? Are you wiped out by midway through? Or

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: We're very close. I keep us in the block.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I try to keep us very much so in the block if I can. I don't like to but I would say we're within a few thousand at the end of the year.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay. And since we're delineating $1,220,500 annually for the director? For the chair. Chair, we don't need to be specifying archaic $100 a day for the members.

[Speaker 0]: That may be in another place.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: It's somewhere in Title III, I think. Okay.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: So we don't need to. It's someplace else.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So, and basically, just if this helps to explain our budget line items, the bulk of it is our payroll for myself and the two administrative staff, the per diems, which includes the board chair because his is just lumped in as a per diem, the expenses for mileage for board members for myself. I don't claim a lot of mileage.

[Speaker 0]: It

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: also includes an out of state conference once a year, some other miscellaneous office supplies. It's bareboat basics that we have. I do my best to operate as well as we can.

[Speaker 0]: Anything else? So let's finish up on section three, which deals with the director. Well, the director is appointed by the governor after they consult with the board.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Mary Jane, where are you on your four year term?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I expire at the February 2020.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I expire.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: My term expired.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: That's that's a cold way to think.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Expires at the end the February 2028.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Oh, okay.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: This is my first term, I took over the director's term and then I served the term and not my second full term.

[Speaker 0]: So e is new. Let's read that quickly, and then we just got a whole pool of folks waiting out the hallway for us, like, a week in the ag fairs. Yeah. We can get started quickly then. So we okay? Just clarification, right? Yep. And this covers all the things you're responsible for. Right? Yes. Pretty good. Okay. So I'll sit down with Hillary. I'll recommend she look at the YouTube at the beginning of this to draft up language for the pilot project, legal representation, and the budgeting process. And then we'll have another draft. So we've already gone through half. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, DOC.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Thank you, AG's office. Thank you,

[Speaker 0]: Mary Jane, the director of the Board. Thank you.

[Unknown committee member]: Thanks a lot.

[Speaker 0]: We've got a whole crew of folks out in the hallway about the ag fairs. Why don't we let them in, and let's quickly take them? If you need to take a personal break, take one.

[Unknown committee member]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Let everyone in. Come here with me. So I'm Sarah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Good morning.

[Speaker 0]: Come on in. Come on in, Bob. Oh, sorry.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Can't drink it all in here.

[Unknown committee member]: It's sitting. Hi.

[Speaker 0]: How are you? You can sit in the hot seat. Oh my gosh. You. Used to it.

[Unknown committee member]: Yeah. Am.

[Speaker 0]: Oh, the maple syrup. That's great.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank

[Speaker 0]: you. I look forward to this. It's great. Very good.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Please go.

[Unknown committee member]: He's got

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: his first status of the year.

[Speaker 0]: You're going to have to

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: claim it.

[Speaker 0]: Want to make sure I have the right one. So for committee members, we, in the capital bill, we're shifting gears a little bit. We have the building community grants. And we do put money towards our agricultural fairs. And that's under the building community grant section of our capital.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: The past

[Speaker 0]: few years, we have appropriated 300,000 And then there's some awards within the ag fairs that distribute that 300,000. Okay.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: That's very helpful.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Going to get a hold

[Speaker 0]: of my agenda to make sure I've got the right I got too many. So we're going to start out with Bob Allen. Welcome, Bob. You're usually the lead person here.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Bob has done this for a few years.

[Speaker 0]: Welcome.

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: Thank you. Thank you, Alice. Thank you, everybody, for hosting us again today. I'm just gonna speak very shortly because I am not here representing a fair. I have several other people here representing fairs. But for those that are not here or in another committee room, we're all thankful for everything you folks do for the fairs, both in the strike lines and the capital grants. And they're being put to very good use, as these people will explain to you. I have with me today, I have Robert Condon from Vermont State Fair in Rutland, Art LaFlante from Orleans, Tim Shea from CBE, our Champagne Valley Exposition. Cindy Cindy is here. Okay. They came out of another meeting. That's why I'm checking. Cindy from Addison, and Randy Bean from Memorial. Hi, Cindy. Okay. I think that's the group that we have here. There are several other fairs, as you know, through Vermont. And some of them are in another committee room, and some of them couldn't make it today. But thank you very much for everything that you do for us. And I'm introducing everybody because I'm one of the past presidents of the M. A. F. Association. And I work at a couple of fairs, but I am not a director of any of them. Good place to be.

[Speaker 0]: Who would like to go next? Whomever. Robert?

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: We'll go right around the meeting.

[Speaker 0]: Great. Thank you, Bob.

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: Nice to see you.

[Speaker 0]: Yes. Haven't seen you in a while.

[Unknown committee member]: Say hi to Esther. Welcome. Good afternoon. My name is Robert Congdon. I'm the president of the Rutland County Agricultural Society, also known as the Vermont State Fair down in Rutland.

[Robert Congdon (President, Rutland County Agricultural Society/Vermont State Fair)]: So it's a joy to be with you and to simply start by just saying thank you. Thank you for your support of the capital program, as well as the stipends. In the stipends case, it certainly goes a long way to helping us pay out our premiums each year, which gets more public participation. And so in our case, we're paying out roughly $25,000 worth of premiums affair. We mean by premium? So that's if a person enters a competition, they get basically a nominal prize for the best vegetable or any of those types of things. So we are receiving just around $10,000 out of the stipend fund. That's our share that comes in. And it also obviously helps with operations and things like that.

[Speaker 0]: When you're talking about the stipend fund, are you talking about the capital money that's coming out of here? Or is that a different part of money that you're talking about?

[Robert Congdon (President, Rutland County Agricultural Society/Vermont State Fair)]: So my understanding is, yep, stipends come out of ag agencies and you folks do the capital.

[Speaker 0]: I'd be clear about that for committee. Usually, there's about 30,000 per fare. Is the capital?

[Unknown speaker]: Yes.

[Speaker 0]: The capital bill, the 300,000. It goes towards infrastructure upgrades. Could be electrical upgrades, could be booths, could be the grandstands, could be display areas for folks who are participating in the fair. It goes for the infrastructure upgrade. So I don't want to confuse that with the operating costs. Because we're very specific for the infrastructure upgrades. Sure.

[Robert Congdon (President, Rutland County Agricultural Society/Vermont State Fair)]: And so when it comes to capital, our capital grants for a number of years, we've been really working on our restroom facilities. So last year, actually my board, when I presented my budget, was shocked to see that our porta potty line item had gone to zero. We've been spending thousands of dollars on porta potties a year. And in our case, this was the last year we were really excited about the fact that we've utilized and invested that capital money for so many years now that we didn't have to rent porta potties during the fair anywhere. Which obviously has less environmental impact as well. The fact that we're on the city sewer system, which it can go to the treatment plant. We don't have to hire the trucks to come in and pump and do the chemicals and all that that requires. Participants. Absolutely. So going forward, because I know there's always questions about like, what's your future plans? We have some Division of Fire Safety improvements that need to be done to our grandstand to widen the aisles and get railings put in. So we're gonna be doing one of those a year for the next several years. We also had a machinery shed that unfortunately prior administrations had let go, and we are in the process of getting finalized so that we can get it rebuilt. So, the capital funds again are very instrumental in us being the seed money for those types of projects. We certainly spend a lot more than the 30,000 a year, but the 30,000 goes a long way to get things started. So, I'm more than happy to answer any questions, but I know there's several other people talking. We're short on time.

[Speaker 0]: On time. So that's great. Any questions? Just to have, you know, this gives an opportunity for the committee to have a flavor in terms of what projects are being funded with the state dollars that we put in.

[Unknown committee member]: Thank you so much.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: Can I just add one?

[Speaker 0]: Yeah.

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: Anybody that doesn't understand that capital grants, they have to be spent on a project that's at least a twenty year life. So you can't just buy them or use it today for something that may be done next year. It's a twenty year life, and the fairs have to operate at least three eight hour days.

[Speaker 0]: So just put over here. Yeah, three A

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: in days. I think this question was answered last year, but I don't recall. So the $300,000 allocation, is that just split evenly between all the entities?

[Speaker 0]: It's for a whole process within the agency that Yeah,

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: If they request

[Speaker 0]: that. They request

[Bob Allen (Past President, Vermont Fairs and Field Days Association)]: don't request the full amount, then we divide up what's left over amongst

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: the Who

[Speaker 0]: who's next here? Anyone?

[Art LePlante (President, Orleans County Fairgrounds)]: Afternoon. Thank you for having me. I'm Art LePlante. I'm the new president of the Orleans County Fairgrounds in Barton. I'm about ten weeks into my new job, and first time I'm here to be able to do this and share some time with you. So thank you. Thank you for having me and my friends here at Wheel of the First. Again, thank you enough for the support we get in these capital grants. To give you an example, where we are in the Northeast Kingdom, we've had some serious issues with buildings over the years. Things have declined. We're in the process right now because of the capital grants and support we've received from you folks. We have two barns that have come down. We're in the process in the spring to tear down a third one. And last fall, we started to replace the three of them with the newest piece of our facility, largest project since 1969 on the grounds. It's a 60 stall horse barn that is 62 by 150. In the small area that we are, it's a huge deal to us, and we've been working hard at it. There's been some additional fundraising by some people in the horse industry that have helped out with that a lot. As we speak, we have a group of Amish gentlemen that are working today on this, we're rolling through the winter and trying to get this done. Completion date, we're hoping early May, mid May. We've got some events coming up. So again, certainly could not do that without your help. Going forward, we're looking at 27. That building I had mentioned in 'sixty nine, it's our floor hall. That building is 60 by 300, and it's in some decline, and we're looking to take a portion of that and transform that into a multifunction year round facility where we can have different events, possibly even wedding venues, that type of thing. So we're looking at a steel frame building that needs insulation and new kitchen area, new ADA compliant bathrooms. And so we're excited about going forward with that. But again, we could not be able to do what we've done in the past few years without your help. And my previous job on the Fairgrounds, well, actually, I guess I still have it because I don't have a replacement yet, but was buildings and grounds superintendent. And when you're working with a facility that started in 1867 and there's still some original buildings there, you're putting a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, if you will, into just keeping some of these things rolling at a comfortable pace. And to reiterate how important this is to us, we have lost some traction in equine business, which is continually growing in our area, with people that didn't want to come in and bring their animals to the facility because of the condition of the barns. So to be able to get rid of them and go this avenue is really good. This barn has sparked more interest. We have another entity, a group of individuals that are in the horse pulling business. They're raising the funds themselves. We will have another barn this year that will be 30 by 120 open stall barn just to store horses during these events. So we're excited to see these things happen. And lastly, one thing that really pushes us, if you will, over the edge to help and assistance is our winter storage. We bring in annually about $35,000 for winter storage. That's a huge help for us. We're going to add, with this new barn, with the help of you folks, 9,000 square feet, possibly five thousand dollars six thousand dollars annually on top of that 35,000 that's going to help us value more. So again, can't thank you enough. So I'll Great. Thank you.

[Unknown committee member]: That's great.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you.

[Art LePlante (President, Orleans County Fairgrounds)]: If there's any questions, but I know we have some other folks here that have had a chance to talk.

[Speaker 0]: It's really helpful to hear this. It's helpful to know. We sit here in these committee rooms and we allocate money and we hope it's going to the right places and really providing back to the monitors and really providing a service back to the monitors.

[Art LePlante (President, Orleans County Fairgrounds)]: You. Thank you. And we're able to put last year just about a quarter of $1,000,000 into the local community through the fair. And again, all comes around. Thank you again.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. You. Who wants to come up next?

[Unknown speaker]: Good afternoon. My name is Randy Beam. I am recently the newly elected president of Lemoyle County, Theo Bays.

[Speaker 0]: Well, or condolences? One of the kind.

[Randy Beam (President, Lamoille County Field Days)]: I think it's congratulations. I know I've been involved with Lemoyle for five years. I am grounds, keep the grounds all summer long, and then I was in the. We can't tell you how thankful we are for the grant. This year, we are using our grant money. We are putting in two overhead doors to the 4 H Building. At the moment, they're just sliding doors. These are just manual. That's all we need, up and down, much more secure storage. We put in a new building last year. Well, it was basically an older building that we basically, it's now a steel building, Harlow Hall. And the old pad, for instance, was part concrete, and then there's like a four 30 by 40 section in the center that is asshole. And that, of course, you do the way on it. So one of the main projects that we've already gotten a bid, and it's been approved that we will be able to do beginning in May, and that's gonna happen the May, is the asphalt is gonna be removed, taken out, and it'll be one complete concrete pad. Mhmm. And it just makes it so much more efficient for the vendors that use that building. Also, one thing we were able to do with our grant money, our front ticket booth is in serious need of major repair. And then we have, like, a separate I wanna say it's like an eight by eight, just a little ATM building. What we are doing, which we know it will be there, but with the other projects we have going, we're gonna wait until after field days have taken place. But next year, we will have a new front booth, ticket booth, where it is a two window booth, and then the ATM building is attached right on. And then we plan on utilizing the old ticket booth out front. We'll need to insulate it, things like that to have a better, like, storage area plus more like a meeting area at the back gate. And then the other thing we're we're we're doing, as soon as weather permits, our gates are the long sliding gates. And the back gate seeing on maintenance and have to get in there, I can no longer I have a blowtorch now, so I loosen up the room.

[Speaker 0]: I mean, it's not you that's causing the problem, right?

[Randy Beam (President, Lamoille County Field Days)]: But people meet when they have to have access. That's how they access the field days. But instead of the sliding gate, we're going to be replacing it with two gates that come together. That's great. But thank you so much for your time and listening to us. We appreciate everything you're doing for us.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yes. I just wanna drive a point home for the for the crew here. So you're you're taking a building that has a concrete outside, but you have asphalt in the middle. You don't have to tear it all out. You don't have to tear the whole thing down.

[Unknown committee member]: No. You just have

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: to take that asphalt out and put concrete in there.

[Randy Beam (President, Lamoille County Field Days)]: Yes.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Thank you for the creative thinking.

[Speaker 0]: You with your creative thinking.

[Randy Beam (President, Lamoille County Field Days)]: Thank you. But I I I Appreciate that. I'm an old farmer, and I I wanna But be I love it. At the same time I mean, because when they put up the new building, they extended the concrete Yep.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: Mhmm. Or

[Randy Beam (President, Lamoille County Field Days)]: like the steel uprights. Yep. Then you've got a beautiful section on each side, front and back, this wide of nice new concrete, and then you've got the wave and the put it all. And I know the person that we are able I actually worked with him about thirty years ago doing concrete. And he's top notch, and I know he'll do a good job for us.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Thank you. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. We have another question, Joe.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Oh, no. This is John's point.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I'm betting you guys didn't put a study committee out before you remove that paper.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: Thank you, Joe. So I figured.

[Unknown speaker]: I mean, I know the person that we are having do it. I mean, we looked into it together. So like I said, we know where we can take

[Unknown committee member]: care of the old asshole.

[Speaker 0]: There's a much bigger issue that we're dealing with here in this committee. And this is the undercurrent for some of the laughter here for some of these folks. How do we deal with the Bennington Monument? Just need the moisture in this building. And we're spending a lot of money on studies of engineering, not getting the data or whatever. So that's where some of Thank

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: you so much.

[Mary A. Morrissey (Member)]: Just want to let people surround it.

[Speaker 0]: So whoever wants to come up next. And this is really helpful for us. I really appreciate it. And I think the other things too that's really coming across is how many different types of projects are being done, Not just one or two particular projects, same project throughout all They're the all different for your needs.

[Tim Shea (Champlain Valley Exposition)]: We'll have some maintenance we need to tend to. Tim Hsieh, Champlain Valley Expo. And again, thank you for your time here today. And I'll echo the comments made before me for the capital grants. We used ours over the years on not so fancy stuff, but it's freed up money that we can use in other areas. So water infrastructure, electrical infrastructure, HVAC equipment, that by dedicating the capital funds to those projects, we can then do things that maybe help our fare operation as far as we had to buy a new tractor. And it did probably wouldn't qualify for a capital grant, but we could free that money up, put towards golf carts are critical during a fair. And the more we can own them and not rent them, kinda like the whole Portalit story there, it just helps the economics that we could put more money into fair programming and enhancing the experience of the fair goer so that money goes a long, long way. You know, we match it. We're fortunate. Like I think all the fairs have great community partners that offer their services either in kind or you know deeply deeply discounted from an excavator to an electrician because they love the fair. They love being around the fair and they help us in the off season. Thank you very much for that. I also want to touch a bit about the role that fairgrounds play. The fair is not going well. I think we all have to some extent as far as a place for community gathering and sometimes when things aren't good, we were a phobic hospital during COVID. We do a tremendous amount of public safety training. Vermont State Police at our fairgrounds probably a dozen times a year, we don't charge for that space, and we're more than happy to have them there. We'll put the police department to there. The Essex Fire Department reached out to us. As I understand that there's a tremendous need for fire training facilities in the state. And we have a part of our land that we really don't use for much anything other than a little overflow parking for some trucks during the fair. They, so we're providing the space to the fire department, and last fall they placed like three Conix boxes, and they're gonna stack two of them, and they can replicate a house with cut hole with staircases, and they'll burn hay in there to make it smoky, and then they can train the fire department there. And that's the kind of stuff we wanna be able to do. And, you know, we host the city of Essex Junction elections. Get going around the whole state, there's roles they play in the community. And when things don't work out for community, look at the, you know, a bad storm down in Florida, where they stage all the utility trucks in the next town of Yorkshire, Fairgrounds. So you need this space in the community, one for the celebration of your agriculture fair, but two, to support the community, you know, in the good times, and they also need help. So thank you for your time.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And Senator, you had Senator Mazza's reception there

[Tim Shea (Champlain Valley Exposition)]: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. No, we miss him dearly. He was a good friend of all you folks there and long serving on our board member a board member of ours for years. So we miss him dearly. Yeah. You. Thank you so much.

[Speaker 0]: Up next.

[Unknown speaker]: I am Cindy Cahart from the Addison Fair.

[Speaker 0]: The Cahart name I served. Roger Cahart. He came in when I did.

[Cindy Cahart (Addison County Fair & Field Days)]: That's my father-in-law.

[Speaker 0]: Well, I served on, you are my sunshine. That's my daughter's favorite, so you're right. That's cool. Well,

[Cindy Cahart (Addison County Fair & Field Days)]: thanks again for the capital money. Our five year plan is to replace where we use big tents with buildings. Big tents are expensive. And two years ago in a windstorm, we had three that were destroyed. And they're hard to come by. So this year we are building, or we're calling it an antique house. I don't know how antique the house is gonna be, but it's gonna house our household antiques in our antique section of the fair. A few years ago, we did the septic for our new welcome center. Last year, we we had finished, taken down two of our cattle barns and built a big cattle barn. And in the future, we have what we call our show tent, where we have the bands play and stuff. We wanna put a building up for that. And we use the buildings all for storage in the winter. Right now, the storage is bringing in like $70,000 And our groundskeeper keeps telling us, Oh, I have room for one more car. One more car here, one more car there. And we have lots of community things at the fairground. The elementary schools do their bikeathons. They bring them and can do it on all the roads at fairgrounds. And we have a tractor pull in the fall that's one that they give all the money to families in need, whether they have health issues and stuff. So we just try to open it up. We've done some weddings, and we are just trying to keep it as busy year round. We have horse shows every weekend all all year or else open year. It's great. Thank you. And the capital fund is, I can just, when everybody's talking about it, I can picture our meeting when our treasurer's going to write the grant and we're all talking about, okay, what's our next project gonna be? And without that, knowing that we are gonna have that, it's hard to start a project. So it really, really is helpful. Thank

[Speaker 0]: you.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Anyone else?

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Have a question.

[Unknown committee member]: I'm just

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: curious, it's no major thing. Do you own the fence or did you rent them?

[Cindy Cahart (Addison County Fair & Field Days)]: The big one for where the bands are, we have to rent. When we replaced the cattle barns, we had been renting a big tent and the tent company didn't have the right size one. So that year they had to put two together. And you know what happens when you put two tents together, that doesn't work. So there is a fellow in Bridgeport that used to supply all our tents, and he sold us his tents. And his crew is, I think we have a five year contract with them that will okay them to put them up, so none of us at the door is gonna put up a tent. So we do have some. But like I said, two years ago, three of our tents got ruined on the Sunday before our fair started on Tuesday. So luckily one of our dairy cattle exhibitors is on the board of Westport Fair in New York. And I went to her, I said, Do you guys have a tent this size, this size, and this size? And so they brought them, we borrowed their tents, and they borrowed our big cement blocks for the horse hole. Yes. Yeah, tents are a nightmare for fair guns.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Wow, kept it right in from China. That's terrific. Can Great. Thank you.

[Unknown committee member]: Thank you, guys.

[Unknown committee member]: Thank you very much.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: We're actually gonna have a five minute break. Can you please? Oh my god.

[Todd Daloz (Assistant Attorney General)]: I can't.

[Speaker 0]: I'm waiting for Hillary to come in with his language and his license. Thank you.