Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: You're live.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Hey, welcome back, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions. It is Friday February 13. And we also have a Friday the thirteenth in March, too. So two months since probably. This is Friday afternoon, a little bit after 12:00. And we are picking up our work on H549, as well as language is being proposed by the Department of Motor Vehicles that is over in a Senate bill in Senate Transportation that pertains to DOC and the ability of folks who are incarcerated to receive non driver ID as well as if they are eligible that they could receive a driver's license prior to help them when they are released from incarceration. We have with us our legal counsel, as well as a representative from DOC, Monique Sullivan, who's on YouTube, on Zoom, and also Nancy Prescott from DMV, who's been living in our committee a little bit the past few days. I think the best thing to do with you, Damian, is, well, to start at the beginning of the proposed draft 2.1. Right now, I'm just gonna kind of lay this out for Damian and Hillary, weigh in. Right now, what we are looking at in our bill, age five forty nine, which people need both topics, both language for comparison. What we have been proposing in five forty nine is currently a person who is sentenced and has served for six months is eligible and is eligible for a non driver ID card. And that's the current law. And our first proposal was to also extend that to detainees who have been in the correctional facility prior to adjudication for six months. And so they could get a non driver ID card. Current law does not specify if it's a non real ID or a real ID, non driver ID card. Yeah. So that's where we were just to extend the ability for detainees to have access to a non driver ID card. That's where we were. I think we had a general agreement with the committee to do that. Okay? Yep. So in the meantime, DMV proposed in draft 2.1 Docs. Only talks about sentence folks that they could, upon submission of a document documentation required for a non real ID or a real ID identification card. So that's the difference right there. And, Damian, I'm gonna turn it over to you. Sure.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you for the introduction here. For the record, I'm Damon Leonard from the Office of Legislative Counsel. Confused where I'm trouble. So you've got a couple of different things that are on the table. But from the miscellaneous DMV bill perspective, what it's proposing to do is to expand the existing program that DOC and DMV have, which allows a person who's been sentenced to receive a non driver identification card when they are when their sentence is done, is to expand that so that they could also, in certain circumstances, get a driver's license or a learner's permit. And so those circumstances are that they have an unexpired driver's license or that it has expired for the driver's license less than three years prior, for the learner's permit less than two years prior. And so this basically allows if they had it going in, they can come back out with what they had when they were sentenced. And of course, if they'd been in for longer than that and their driver's license has been expired for, let's say, ten years or even five years, then they're going to have to go through the process of applying for it again. But this would allow them, in certain circumstances, to come back out with a driver's license instead of getting a non driver ID and then having to go back to the DMV to get a driver's license. So that's what that would do. The initial language, as I drafted it, inadvertently swept in detainees. And that has been clarified now in the current draft. So it's just individuals who have been sentenced, not individuals who are awaiting sentencing or awaiting trial. So that's been clarified. My understanding is that you also had a bill which was to expand the non driver ID program to detainees. I would defer to my colleague, Hillary, to speak to that. But with respect to the other identification questions, I can answer questions about the real ID and non real ID program, which gets complicated because there, we're subject to federal law and federal requirements. And so that throws a little bit of a wrench into everything. So what we end up with is the same credential for state purposes, but there are two different versions. There is the federally compliant or non or Real ID compliant identification under federal regulations. And then there is the non Real ID, which is still usable for state purposes but not usable for federal purposes. And that includes getting a stamp at the top that provides something to the effect that the card is not acceptable for official purposes or not for identification purposes. Means you cannot fly with it. You can't use it to get into a federal property. And there are a couple of other instances, but basically, it's it's not a good federal ID. It's fine for the state. So you have a state operator's license that's a non real ID. Either you didn't have all of the paperwork and information you needed to meet the real ID requirements, or perhaps you chose not to share that with the state government, which is your right. Then you get a non real ID. You can still drive your car, but you can't use it to board a plane. You can't use it to go into the federal building. Does that make sense?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So where does that that makes sense for the driver's

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: license. Mhmm.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How does that play out for the non driver ID card?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the non driver ID card, if you think about it this way, the federal law says that if you choose not to get the real ID compliant state identification card and I'm just gonna call this the state

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the state recognizes a non driver license.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So we have

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: state identification card.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's right. So you can use that at a local store. Say you're writing a check and they want to see an ID, you can use that. Say you're going to the bar and they want to check your age or you're buying beer at the store, you can use that as an identification card for those purposes. What you can't do is use it to board a plane, go to a federal building, etcetera. So basically, they they have allowed states to elect to have identification cards that don't meet the federal requirements under the caveat that you can have these. They just can't be used for any of the federal purposes that were requiring a real ID. And so you can tell on your own ID card. If you have a little circle with a star in it on the upper right hand side, that means you've got a real ID compliant card. If you don't, that means that you for what whatever piece of documentation it was, you didn't submit all the documentation needed to get a Real ID.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for a non driver ID, regardless if it's a non Real ID or a Real ID, could be used for identification purposes in the state except to enter into a federal building or to board a plane. There

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: are some other federal areas where federal ID is required. Those are the two that come to mind off the top of my head. Right. I don't wanna

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But it's both for the non real ID and the real ID, non driver license. Yes. Right. Non driver ID.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So let's just say an ID card that's either

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Non or real.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Deal ID or non real.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: They're the same.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's the same for your state and local purposes. But one is acceptable for federal purposes where a federal federally compliant ID is required and one is not.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the real ID for a non driver ID could get you into those federal buildings?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Will be acceptable as a form of identification. That doesn't guarantee you entrance. Yeah.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: And I'm assuming you could register to vote with that?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You can register to vote with any of these at the DMV. That's an option when you go through at the DMV to register to vote, to designate yourself as an organ donor. Those options that are on the application. I actually just renewed my ID across the street. I had a wonderful experience. But those were all questions I was asked as I was renewing my driver's license across the street.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Gina and Ben, Kevin?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You could use the the non real ID, though, to pick up a prescription.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah. Okay. Cool.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's your final question.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah. And

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: when you said you can use a non real ID to register to vote, is that strictly state or state and federal?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So the registration to vote is when you're at the DMV and you're applying for this, one of the options is that they can register you to vote. There are other ways, and I don't know if that applies to federal elections. I'm not an elections lawyer, unfortunately.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You'll be on the checklist.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You'll be on the checklist. I don't know if it would affect I would want to ask my colleagues who cover elections law if this affects your ability to vote in a federal election. There are other forms of ID that you could provide, too, like a passport for something like that. Although, if if you've already got a passport I mean, again, it could be a personal reason why you choose not to provide that documentation. But yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for the non wheel ID, non driver, documentation does DMV need?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Nancy, are you able to answer this off the top of your head? Because I'll have to look.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: I'm Chris Scott, Director of Operations for DMV. The identifications that you need to provide is residency, social security, as well as a certified birth certificate or valid passport is what you looking for. You do not necessarily need to provide the valid passport if you don't have one.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: One or the other. That's correct. So you need proof of residency, social security number, either the birth certificate or passport. So for a person who's incarcerated, and Monique, weigh in here at any time. So a person who is incarcerated that wants a non driver ID, just breaking this down. I'm not getting into licenses yet, but for non driver ID. For a non real ID, do they need those documentations?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: For a non real ID. For DOC?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: For DMV to get a to get a non real ID for a non driver ID, do they need those same documentations? Do you need those same documentations?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: So what we don't need is a citizenship for non real ID. And we do need citizenship for real ID. So you

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: don't need the birth certificate or passport?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Not for non real ID. My apologies.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. Just wanna be Yeah. Starting from scratch here.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Piece and component of it, you do not need to provide for that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for the non ID card, what DMV needs is proof of residency and social security number. For the real ID, non driver ID, you need those two plus birth certificate or passport. So the process for DOC is to provide those documents, know which one the offender wants. If they want a non real or a real ID for a non driver ID card, I would assume DOC needs to find out from the offender which one they want, and then DOC has those documentations that they then submit to DMV for whichever one. Is that correct, Monique?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Yes. We ask them to Could

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you just identify yourself for the record?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: I'm sorry. Monique Sullivan, Department of Corrections facility operations manager. So we ask the individual which kind of ID they would like, and then the documents that we are able to get are a Social Security card and a birth certificate if the person was born in Vermont. And that's what we can provide to the DMV.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So how does DMV then verify the residency?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: DOC currently provides all of that for us order for us to under our current program.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: For the residency, we just were able to provide the address that the individual is going to release to that's been approved. But there there's obviously no electric bill with your name on it or anything like that. It's just DOC saying this person is approved to live at this address.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And how and you provide that information, send it over to DMV. DMV processes it, and you would produce the card at DMV's nickel, is 70 That is correct. This is done prior to release for someone who's sentenced.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Correct.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How's how much prior to their release? Is it about a month prior to the date that they're due to be released?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Two. Two months.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So that's the process for folks who are sentenced. So if we expand this to detainees, which was the bill originally, and we did not delineate non REAL ID or REAL ID for the non driver ID card. By incorporating detainees to be able to access the non real ID and the real ID for a non driver ID card. Is there any issues on DOC's in or DMV's in? This is for detainees. And one thing that we talked about was that the documentation that would be needed, DOC would collect it and keep it with the detainee. And then when they were released, that information would go with the detainee, and the detainee could go to DMV to get their non driver ID. That would still still be able to be worked through with a non real ID and the real ID?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: DOC is still only able to get the birth certificate and Social Security card. And we would also be able to provide probably a form letter that we will create that says this individual has been incarcerated from this date to this date.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is the address

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: they're going to.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You wouldn't be able to provide the residency?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: We can whatever the we we need to create the form. So if we need to put the residency on there and DMV will accept that from DOC as, yes, this is where a person's gonna live, then sure.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Would GNC be able to accept that?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Yes. Administratively, I believe you guys are proposing to do is to add to our current process and our new proposed wording to include licenses and permits to detainees. No, not that. The detainees would then be a different administrative process between DOC and DMV.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The only way we're looking to expand from sentenced to detainees is for the non driver ID, not for their driver's license and not for their permit. It is only for the non driver ID. That's why I'm taking it in steps so that we understand it's only for the non driver ID that we were looking in our bill to extend to detainees. Correct.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I agree with you. I get that, that that's what we initiated. Is there any reason, and perhaps there is, while we don't just tack on detainees to the new process.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I don't wanna get through yet. I want people to understand what we're doing with the non driver ID first. And I want folks to understand that first. So the process is laid out. We would have to have language, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. Oh god. Let me get into definition. This is the other piece we're gonna have this

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: broken with. We got individuals.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. This is just the definition of an inmate or an offender or that mess.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, we can true up that terminology based on whatever this committee decides.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Definition and law of an offender and definition and law of an inmate.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right, and just to

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I don't wanna go there yet.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah? Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I'll stay away. Yes. You you want me to go.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Do we need any language and statute to lay out for detainees the process of how DOC gets that information, how the detainee gets that information to DMV, or should we be silent on that?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I would say that under the current law, there we are not prescriptive in how they transfer that. My general recommendation is that if you're going to get prescriptive, the extent of that prescription should be they shall agree on a process. Because as their IT systems, personnel, other procedures change, we don't want to have to come back to this every couple of years.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No kidding. What a surprise.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Update. So I would say limit any prescription on the process there to at most my recommendation would be to limit it to at most requiring them to reach an agreement on how to do it. The current statute basically sets out that DOC inquires during reentry planning, and then the Department of Corrections coordinates with DMV to provide the identification card. I'm not sure you need more than that. It's already requiring them to coordinate with each other and to engage, and then they can have an MOU that sets out the parameters for that coordination.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that's in number two on page seven of five forty nine.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. Yeah. So that's subdivision. Well, in the existing lots, M 1, M 2, M 3. And M 2 And 3 lay out the process there, reentry planning and coordination.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So if we include the non real ID, the real ID for those non driver ID, which changes to two or three that you're seeing, either one of our lawyers.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. If if you're there is a let me just see. Got 326 open.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Three three is clear. If the individual desires a non driver ID card, DOC would coordinate with DMV to provide an identification card for the individual at the time of release.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. The the only proposed change that has come up with respect to the existing language, if you don't expand it to to detainees that I'm aware of from the work in the transportation committees, is just clarifying the documentation for either a non real ID or a real ID.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's my next question

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: for that. Sure. At the time of release, may need to be tweaked there too because we're talking about sending them to DMV with

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's what I'm kind of wondering, but that's where your process is between DOC and DMV. Do we want to be prescriptive in that process and statute? That's my question.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I think you can maybe stop it at facilitate the acquisition of an ID card rather than at the time of release, because we know it's not gonna be at

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the time of release, especially for. I mean, that language there, you could

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There isn't I

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: mean, you can

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There is not a reentry plan for detainees.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. So I think I'm going to defer to you. Sorry.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: William Chittenden, Office of Legislative Counsel. My understanding of what the committee has previously discussed is that because of the nature of detainees, they will need the documentation to be provided by DOC when they are released or available for them afterwards in a way that DOC gets them their documents now or their personal property now. If that's correct, to make that change in statute, I think the suggestion would be to leave subsection M the way it is currently written, because as currently written or whatever tweak the motor vehicle bill requests for DMV reasons, but to leave that as is for purposes of who it covers.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: For sentenced individuals. For sentenced individuals. Got it.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: More than six months, yep. And then to add a subdivision or subsection afterwards that was specified for detainees who is going to get the documents. The DOC will obtain the documents as practicable and then provide them at the time of release. And I think in that subsection, if the committee wants to add agree on process language or similar, that could be a place to do.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Does that work for folks? Okay. So, Hillary, if you could start drafting that, so then the question will be within that section. Well, before I go there, if we accept the language in M1, the current law, that is very clear that the submission of documentation is required for non REAL ID, a real ID identification card, wherever, like in two, where we use the non driver identification card. And then in three, we say identification card for the individual. Do we need to also say that it's a non real ID or real ID carry that language through in current law?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know that you necessarily do. I think it's implied. If you want to, you know, do the belts and suspenders approach, you could. I'm not sure that it's necessary. You know, we could say provide the, you know, appropriate identification card. Maybe that's not the right word. But, I mean, we're just

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: because in one, we're being very clear that the documentation required for non real ID or real ID identification card, then later on, we just say non driver identification card.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: One way to think about it is that when you're drafting a statement, it's worth specifying where it makes a difference. So in subdivision one, because the documentation required is different for those two kinds, it's worth specifying both of the kinds. For two and three, there isn't a difference, right? We're talking about the individual's desire to obtain any kind of non driver identification card, whatever kind they're eligible for. And if they want any kind, then DOC and DMV shall coordinate to provide whatever they're eligible for and have the documents for. I think two and three have useful generality for purposes of what two and three are talking about.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I just wanna be clear. I just wanna be clear for folks, okay? So if we agree that we set up a separate section for detainees, for the non driver ID will you smile on it?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: She just said that five times better than I could.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: She's that. She's doing that. Do

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you wanna come down to

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: transportation too?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we set up another section that deals particularly with just detainees and for the non driver ID. Do we want to specify in statute a little bit of what that process is that DOC would like prepare the packet, have it available for the detainee for them to take to DMV after they release? Do we wanna be that script? Or do we wanna say similar to what it is on number three, page seven, line 17 through 20, if the individual desires a non driver ID, DOC will coordinate with DMV. So which one do we want? Be more prescriptive or be a little bit broader? Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Well, that'll work at either place and I don't wanna revisit this.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Could I clarify one thing? Is the intention I guess it meets the question. If DOC is obtaining for DTDs, if DOC is obtaining the documentation required for a non REAL ID or REAL ID, non driver identification card, and providing it to the individual at release to take to DMV, what coordination would DMV and DOC have for the detainee non driver identification cards? Or is that just something that DOC is doing?

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah, there's like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge here. Like, I have this from DOC and then DMV knows, okay, this is a DOC situation. What is that wink, wink, nudge, nudge, right?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: It's an MOU. For detainees. An MOU that we would work out our process of what that prescriptive plan looks like, which we believe now, just while we're working through it, it would look like they're gonna be coming and supplying DMV with a specific letterhead with specific information that states that they are under that program, along with their documents that they read.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So there is still some understanding or coordination between DMV and DOC.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we need some language to that effect. Exactly. Okay. So are we clear on the non driver ID and who gets it, how they get it, and what it is? Okay. Now, before we go to the next section, which deals with renewing driver's licenses and permits. If you go to current law on page seven, it's M2, current law. And this is for folk I'm not even gonna go into definition of offender or inmate at this point. But if we go to number two, lines 13 through 16, this is current law. For folks who are sentenced and they're being released, the individual's desire to obtain a non driver ID card or any driving credential if available, if eligible, which means they could go for a driver's license and inform the individual about the differences between the non driver ID and driver's license, including any cost to the individual. So the intent of that language when we put it in, if they wanted to get a driver's license, they could do so with this same process, but they would have to pay for it. So that's a little bit in conflict with the language that DMV is proposing.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I don't know that it necessarily is, because

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I don't know. Is it

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: or not? Including any costs could be zero.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But we were clear that if anyone because in the testimony when we did this a few years ago, DMV is picking up the cost for the ID cards. They're not picking up the cost for the driver's license.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: You're proposing to now.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're in I wanna make sure that we're not in conflict.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: So there

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: if you think back to the testimony from a week or two ago when we were of us were in here on this. There are potential costs related to getting some of these documents, especially if they have to be gotten from out of state. And so that is one of the potential costs that's still there, even if the driver's license or learner's permit are now at no cost. So you may still need to pay money to get a certified copy of a birth certificate or something like that.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Could I clarify something on that?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Sure. Go ahead, We

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: only are able to get a birth certificate for someone who was born in Vermont, not someone who was born in another state.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Okay. Even with no money being like even if someone was to give you money to do that?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: We've we've tried with several different states. Whenever a new state pops up, we try, and they won't provide the information.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What if the offender themselves reached out to that state, would they provide it to that person, seeing that the person's incarcerated? It says that the DOC is asking instead of the person. Right?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Right. I'm not sure that we've asked that, but we certainly could find out.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So, Damian, for what's in current language for someone who could get a driver's license while they're incarcerated, a sentence person, that is not a conflict with the new DMV language?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't think so, because I think what you're saying here is you're inquiring with them about their desire to obtain one of these credentials, regardless of whether it's the non driver ID under this section or one of the other driving credentials. And even if we add in the language from DMV, that's not going to change. What I think I would suggest is that with S326 and I know I'm getting ahead of you here is just making sure the language lines up where it's you know, inquire with them about getting a operator's license or another credential. And I'm just saying that I think it's important that that language lines up just so that if you have a person who's looking at the statute rather than an internal policy based on the statute, that they can look at it and say, I'm supposed to be asked about getting a driver's license or other credential from the DMV, or I'm supposed to ask about providing a driver's license or other credential. So that regardless of where they turn I know that in the motor vehicle world, it is sometimes confusing to people that driver's licenses and non driver IDs are four chapters apart. And the non driver ID is in a chapter that doesn't have any indication that it's going to have non driver IDs in it. It's kind of a miscellaneous chapter. And so some folks have gotten questions before, where do I find the law on the non driver IDs? Because people look for where the driver's licenses are, they can't find it. So I think it's helpful to have that cross reference if you have a layperson or administrator trying to read the law and understand things.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You and Hillary should figure that out.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, can clarify that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So let's go to the proposed language. So I'll make sure there's nothing else in five forty nine. Let's go to the proposed language in draft 2.2. That's for replacement license.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And so that should be the same as

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I have it in here.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: S three twenty six as it was introduced. And it's also the same as draft 1.1 of the committee's strike all amendment that was introduced this morning.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: This one Right there.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So what I'll do, because we may have depending on where you're looking at this, we may have different page numbers and line numbers. Go with the sections. So with section two, the replacement licenses Yep. For this one here, I think at the start of C1, what's become clear to me just listening in is that Hillary and I need to work on the language there, and I need to get something that aligns with whatever you define design on for the defined term for an individual who's been sentenced.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. We're not talking about detainees here at all.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No, this is just individuals who have been sentenced.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's what

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: it is.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. So the committee is clear on this.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And so on the third line of that existing subsection there, you'll see that you have to either hold an unexpired license or have held a Vermont operator's license that expired not more than three years prior. So if you had another state's driver's license, you're not covered by this. It's just for folks who held a Vermont

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: license. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: this is a question that I asked the other day, and it's more DOC than DMV. Person comes in, don't know if I can phrase this correctly, they have a valid driver's license. They come into corrections. And they're there for maybe a year. And within that year, their driver's license expired. Then they get sentenced. So say it got expired exactly a year after they were incarcerated. They get a sentence for five years. Okay? So the driver's license has been expired. They would have So then their ultimate sentence Well, that's not going to work. Because their ultimate sentence will be four years. So two years into their incarceration, they could apply.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The way the language is currently, it doesn't specify

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But it's within that clear

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. It doesn't specify any specific time during their sentence

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: When this would have to take place. It doesn't say, like, within six months of release or something like that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I'm getting trying to get at so say they got a ten year sentence and a license expired the first year of their sentence. They would have three years of being incarcerated, that they would be eligible that within that three years or after that three years? Within that three years to get a no cost? After that, they would have to pay?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: They wouldn't actually be eligible in that scenario for a license if they were incarcerated for ten years. Because in theory, their license had expired as well as extended past of three years. So they would need to get a non driver and retest.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think one thing that is missing from the current language is the current language doesn't specify that it has to be pending as you're approaching release. But in that ten year scenario, under the existing language in the draft, theoretically, if you read the language strictly, they could seek to reapply or renew their license mid sentence. But they would actually run into a problem at the end of their ten year sentence because every nine years, you need a new photo to comply with federal requirements. And so they would actually they could have, under the existing language in the bill, they could renew their license, but then they wouldn't actually be able to have a valid license on leaving because their photo would have expired. And that's part of mean, that's one of the things that's there is language in here that says, if eligible, so that to capture caveats like that where you actually need to go to a DMV location to get a new photo taken to get this updated. But I do think if your intent is that this is only provided upon release, that you should specify a time period leading up to release when they can seek this renewal.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is talking the language in C1 with that hasn't expired for three years. It's for people who are not incarcerated. Because most people, Monique or Can you mention what the average length of incarceration is? I hate to say that. Is it two years, one year, two years, three years, ten years? It varies.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: It varies. There are some people who get a sentence of six months, but we have people who are in for life.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah, I don't know what that means.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: It's probably five years. Like,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: probably be a minimum. Five years. If they reach their minimum. Is that their minimum, they're eligible for release.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Well, right. That's the other thing. It's not that the person gets sentenced to five years and they're in jail for five years. They get sentenced to five years. They are eligible to get released at their minimum, which most of them elect to do. And they go out to some kind of community supervision, and ultimately almost all of them come back. And we see them come back in and released to furlough or parole or probation again. Then they violate, then they go back in. They typically do that till the end of their sentence.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So how does that three year time frame work on the DOC end for folks? They come in with a valid driver's license and then it expires. Of course, they have to be there six months and they could be detained for six months as a detainee and then get sentenced. So if they already met that six month threshold, because then been committed to the imprisonment six months or more committed to the custody. That would include the six months they were detained. Then they're sentenced. Does that three year window work in corrections world to renew a license? Don't know.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Well, we haven't done it.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: They had mentioned DOC had mentioned yesterday in testimony that they don't have access to the web.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's helicopter. Been doing it for days.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, they've been flying Blackhawks back and forth.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Really? Who's been flying?

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Think he's flying top. Is army? It's right there. Great. But we don't have a range. Yeah. Why is that happening right next to the capo? Anyway, moving on. They want to issue driver's licenses. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We want to get released if they're out like us.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Entertaining my daughter yesterday. So, yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: They were yesterday?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Like five, 05:30.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah. He was on the interstate. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: doing stuff. Thank you. Yeah. Right. They're doing stuff that's a concern. What stuff?

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I'm gonna get you. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I don't disagree with the philosophy of trying to help somebody if they have a valid driver's license and they become incarcerated. The driver's license expires while they're incarcerated. And it hasn't been expired more than three years. So you've got a three year window that you could reapply. How is it going to work in DOC's world? We don't know. Right? Is that fair to say?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There's a committee.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Well, you're keeping a tight rein on it. And so I have a question that I want to ask counsel about the miscellaneous bill. But it's like, is now the time?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What part of the miscellaneous bill?

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Well, the initial language included detainees by mistake. I took that out. Yeah. So why? Because it

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: was It's hard for

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: us get into this It's hard for

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: us to know when a detainee leaves.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Well, that's my question. Yeah, so it

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: was a logistical issue,

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: not an objection. Yeah,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah, it was like a detainee could be there for three weeks or a month and their license expires within that time. But DOC, they could be released right from the court. DOC knows nothing when they are released. That's more And if they're a and they're released within a month and their driver's license expired, by the time DOC does the work to get the information to DMV, they're already out the door. So that's why it was taken out. Was there something else there, Brian, as

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: well? Scary. Nope, I just wondered, I was inquiring about the discussion, if there were other reasons or if that's a good reason.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So where's the committee on this one for three years? Troy?

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, not knowing impact on DOC administratively, I don't know if that's factoring into it for me. My apologies to DOC. Just because this isn't going to surprise anybody. Any hurdles that we can remove from a smooth reentry process for me is an obligation that we have. And this is doing that, prospectively. Yeah, I'm in favor of what we're doing.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah, folks, I think it's fine.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, I totally agree with what Troy just said.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Other folks? Keep the language as is for three years.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Kevin? They're struggling?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I'm not struggling. I think we ought to tell our lawyers what we'd like to see and let them come up with the language that's compatible. I think we want to say anyone that's been detained for more than six months, we want them to be able to receive the highest level of documentation that DOC can provide and let them figure out how to do it. That's what I'd like to see. If it's a driver's license or a non driver's license

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: or a real or not.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Or whatever. Yeah. Let them just do what the system does but tell them what we want. That's that's what I think we should do. I don't think we can parse this ourselves but I'm

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: the newbie here. Well, we can, and then they'll tell us it's wrong.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the language is before us is to allow folks who are sentenced to renew their license while they're incarcerated.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: If

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: it expires, they can do it right then and there. Or if it has an expired should no more than three years. So if they came in with an expired license, that's a year old and they were held in sentence for two more years, could they renew that expired license? Because they didn't come in with the their license had been expired a year prior to their incarceration.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Does not require them. The current language here does not require that their license be unexpired when they entered. If that were the committee's wish, I would rewrite this.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: No. No.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No. So it could a person's license could be expired.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Mhmm.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Just a three year wind out. Yep. That's what it is for us.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Keep it simple.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: Keep it simple as

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It's fine. We don't

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: I may be jumping ahead of you. Are we adding detainees now to the to the senate? I

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: don't think so. Because I think d d o c detainees would be an issue on your end, wouldn't it?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Yes.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Okay. Small. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. Let's keep going.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Alright.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So with the replacement licenses there, right now, the language allows you to if you have either an unexpired license or one that expired not more than three years prior, to be eligible to apply for a replacement license. And then upon proper application and submission of documentation for either a non real ID or real ID, and in advance of release, be provided with the replacement operator's license for a fee of $0. And this is at any time right now, as it's written, during the period of incarceration. So that is a question of, do you want to leave that as at any time or as they're nearing release, whether that's on furlough or the end of their sentence. And I am way out of my lane with understanding the nuances of that. So I want to defer to Hillary and DOC to identify issues with that could arise from that at any time language now versus time limiting it to a specific window. And then the other piece here is then you just have to provide proof of Vermont residents, which under the current provision, as I understand it, is where they're going to be once they're released. And then and the mailing address upon release from custody, which does seem to contemplate that this is at the as you're nearing release, whether that's on furlough or for the end of your sentence or parole. Again, I'm out of a They not be correct, so please bear with me here. The it then goes to reentry planning, provides that as part of reentry planning, DOC would inquire with the individual regarding whether they would like, if eligible, to obtain an operator's license. And, again, I would recommend that you say or other credential from the Department of Motor Vehicles pursuant to the provisions of this section and then provide information regarding documentation and associated costs. And then the last subdivision here, number four, just provides that if the individual wants to obtain that license, then DOC would coordinate with DMV to provide that license to the individual at the time they're released from custody. So again, everything except that opening language seems to contemplate that as we're approaching release, understanding that when you're incarcerated, you're not driving on a public highway.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That's what I was just going to say.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the kicker is if the license is more than it reaches nine years old, then you have to go on for a photo.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So And there's no photo on the non driver ID?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There is.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So how do you get the photo on a non driver ID?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Right now, for someone who's Process with DOC. We actually have a system worked out where they're the ones that have the particulars of what we need, and they're sending us the photo file.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So could that be done in the driver in this section here as well, where driver's license is over nine years old?

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Presumably, if that's already in place, then then my concern earlier is

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: That's what

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Monique, do you want to weigh in?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Yeah, we could absolutely take photos. But there's already a process in place. Everybody knows how to do it. I don't see that that would be a problem at all.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because we worked through that about seven years ago, six, seven years ago, pre COVID, to make sure that the photo things could work between. We did that in this meeting pre COVID.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: And our current process and the language that I'm understanding is about upon release.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: So

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: if we are talking, I'm just gonna, if I could just throw it out there. If we are talking about license renewals while they are incarcerated and where DMV is paying that fee for potentially a larger bulk of individuals that might need to be vetted, because that isn't something that we have considered. We were still I believe our language was in regards to upon release.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. So with that in mind, I might suggest tightening up the language just a little bit just to ensure that I think you can read the implication in from the other subdivisions, but I might recommend that Hillary and I work together to tighten up the language just to ensure we're capturing folks who are nearing release.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Through those discussions, I was under the understanding that it was a release time six months.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Well, and given that fact, perhaps I'm belaboring your point because I'm missing it. We're not saying that somebody is in for twenty five years, it's on the shoulders of DOC and DMV to renew every few for them. They get to the end of their long stretch and then it's time for a non driver's ID and start all over again.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Was our intent of our language and our current intent as well as the expansion. It is absolutely right. I don't think we had thought of going down that path.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I missed part of that question because I was thinking, and this may be the question. So Their license expired a long time ago, like two years into their sentence, but they have a minimum of twelve years. And they are getting near the time to be released. They want a driver's license. They would be eligible for one. Would they be able to they'd be able to apply for one or not? But if your license expires and then ten years later you want a driver's license, you have to start from scratch?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Retest after three years. Okay.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. I I also wanna point out the existing language for the non driver ID addresses this. It says that upon proper application and in advance of release from a correctional facility.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: So it That's what you want.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Clarifies it. I think the issue here came out of me trying to formulate the language for the other two and not tracking this. And I I left that part out. So I I think I inadvertently created the loophole that I just pointed out to all of you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you I know.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: It's happening. It happens. We we

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: don't We

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: understand this discussion.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So I apologize for bogging you down with that piece too.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So if they renew while they're incarcerated, which is post their time of release, and their driver's license has expired, but it's not more than three years, they can renew it at no cost.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: We will give them the highest credential that they are eligible for at the time of release.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How much would it cost DMV to issue the driver's license?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: And would it be A credential's a credential. Dollars 3.3 plus voltage plus personnel.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Credential credential. And it doesn't matter if it's the enhanced or the

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: No, no, no, no enhanced.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No. Okay.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: No, no, no. Enhances the chip to go to Canada border crossing. No, no. It's got

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: to be a real ID? Yes. Driver's license. You don't have a non real ID driver's license. We

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: do. We don't to do that.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Called a it's called a privilege card.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The non drive the non. Yeah. So then we'd have to clarify.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: So we

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: would need to clarify language here, which driver's license Shawn was really referring to.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: It's all going to depend upon what DOC is able to get for the highest vetted documents. They get what they are able to, we will provide the highest credential type depending on what their eligibility as well as what documents are provided.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you could issue an enhanced driver's license.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: We will not be issuing an enhanced driver's license because there is an additional $30 fee for the CHIM for the crossing of the border. DMV has not been part of that language. Real ID,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: yes. What if the person comes in with a valid driver's license that is the enhanced driver's license, it expires within this window and is eligible to renew. That same driver's license.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They could go for the Real ID driver's license, but they can't I don't think this contemplates a no charge enhanced. Yeah.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Because they're gonna be coming in theory and working through.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Just putting out all the scenarios there.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. But it this isn't

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Prepare for questions on the floor because everybody has a driver's license.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. This is not contemplating a no charge enhanced driver's license. So

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: You want that? It's on our next.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah, I'm just playing out the scenarios. I want things covered because everybody holds a driver's license and they're gonna ask questions on the floor and whoever's reporting this, because I'm not reporting it, whoever's reporting this needs to know these answers. This is where you

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: get Does everybody feel comfortable with understanding an enhanced driver's license is a real ID, but an enhanced driver's license is a chip inside the credential that allows for border patrol prior to getting up there, read your information and it comes up on the system. Right? Okay. Just wanna make sure. Yep. Right? Just to help clarify.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: That is

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: helpful. It's a $30 extra charge for them. That is correct.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: For any

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: of us. For any of us.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Any of us.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: And how far away are they reading that from?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: That I don't know. That's not my lane. That's why the Blackhawks

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: are there.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Was just wondering. Stop.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: At the stop, there's always

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: a car in front of us. I do know they're picking it up from that point. I don't know how far back in line when the lines are. I don't know the

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: answer. Who would be picking it up? DMV? No, Board

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: of when you're crossing the lines.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Well, that's helpful. Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You're welcome. You all can

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: be our DMV advocates out there helping our friends and family to educate. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm gonna ask the security question at DOC. No, I'm gonna ask the security question, DMV.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: It is 30 feet.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And I just wanna put this on the table. I don't think it's an issue. Person comes in, they have an enhanced driver's license. They meet all the requirements here. Renew it. They want it enhanced. But they're on furlough, and you've got some strict restrictions on them. Is there anything that DOC would get in the way of the person getting that enhanced driver's license? Cause I'm sure there's folks out there right now with enhanced driver's license that are on furlough or parole.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: Probably. Yeah. We DOC wouldn't do anything to not allow them to get it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. So you're gonna finagle the language a little bit here, Damian, tighten it up, make sure it tracks a little bit with current law. Let's go to learner's permit, which is probably married may be to the drivers. It

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: mirrors the driver's license. So if you go down to it's Subdivision 4, This is broken out slightly different than driver's license just because the way the fees are set out in the learner's permit section. So this would provide that if you get a replacement learner's permit issued under the section related to individuals who are serving a sentence, then the fee would be $0 Then going down to the individual serving a sentence, the language mirrors what we see for the driver's licenses. Again, it needs the same fix that we have to say in advance of release. Beyond that, they're required to provide proof of Vermont residence and their mailing address upon release, documentation necessary for a real or non real ID. And then DOC, as part of reentry planning, is required to inquire with them. And, again, I would recommend replacement learner's permit or other credential issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles pursuant to the provisions. And I will finagle that language to make it a little bit better. And then, again, if they do wanna obtain a replacement learner's permit, DOC would coordinate with DMV to provide that permit at the time the individual is released.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: There are many people coming into corrections for the learner's permit.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: can't imagine that.

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: I I don't know that I've ever seen it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But you just want to track it.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: I think it's our attempt to just give the highest credential that an individual is eligible for to help with their success upon reentry.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What identification, if any, do you need for permit, driver's permit? Do you need anything? Yes. Same information I could do for any

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: of our credentials. So depending if you're going for a real ID or non real ID, your residency, your social security, your birth certificate.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So they have the same delineation for a learner's permit?

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: They do.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Should we indicate that too again or not? Just leave it the way it is? I saw Nancy say no.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: It's the same. Yeah. Since 2014. It's always in most of our lives.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Left that out. Would just say like the same documentation.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Then again, if they qualify or if they it's whatever they have is what they're going to get unless they have additional documentation to upgrade.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Be prepared, somebody here is gonna report this thing.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: At this. No,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm not doing it. Knock on the capital bill to do. This one's gonna take some debate on the floor is my taking because everybody has the driver's license. That's it, right? Because we're not talking about anything else. So, Damian and Hillary, you're gonna work up a new draft of this and you're gonna use 5 you can use 549 as the

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: vehicle. The

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think the plan in the center transportation is whatever you put in May, they are going to drop that into the miscellaneous motor vehicle bill that they've got, and they're hoping to do that at the end of next week after they hear from the chair.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the one thing that and I'm gonna leave this up to you too to clarify. We have to make sure we use the right terminology when we talk about individuals sentenced, offender, inmate, there is, in statute, a definition. Offender means someone who has been adjudicated in serving a sentence. Inmate means offender and includes the sentence person as well as the detainee. We'll

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: likely stick with individual resentments or individual with detainee for that reason,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: but we will pay close attention.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: It's been going back and forth here for a couple of years.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And it's worth noting, if we did use something like offender, we would want to cross reference wherever that's defined, because in Title 23, it's not. And so for purposes of Title 23, that's that's a term where, you know, there would be questions about interpretation unless we reference the definition of it wherever it is.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Mhmm.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I'm I'm not sure that I wanna add offender to the 88 definitions for Title 23 there in section four.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You folks can figure that out. So do either one of you have any policy questions that we need to resolve before the next draft?

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have a fair understanding what the committee would like for original h 49 purposes.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I think I have a clear understanding too. I think I need to talk to DMV about the learner's permit section. And this is probably more of a transportation committee issue, but it strikes me that the statutory language may not reflect their current documentation requirements. And I'm wondering if we just wanna update that for clarity's sake. I need to read it a little bit closer when I'm not Yes. Trying to follow a conversation. Mhmm. But I just wanna make sure that that's the case. So you may see a little bit of additional language that appears in both drafts that just says real ID or non real ID documentation.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then one timing question for me. I believe I'm scheduled for a walkthrough of amended language for H549 on Tuesday. I just want to make sure that whatever changes are required for the Senate bill language,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the work is for those.

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Absolutely. Yeah. So they're I believe they're asking chair Emmons to come in on Wednesday. Yep. Wednesday And then this morning, they discussed hoping to finalize their language by the end of next week, assuming that timeline works for this committee too.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you may wanna amend a little bit of what we proposed as well. Is that

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They may. And they they have another there's a motor vehicle inspections provision that's subject to a public hearing the following week. So their bill will be open for another week after that. But they're hoping to button up as much of the bill as they can and just leave the inspections because that's, as all of you can imagine. That's a buzz.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So is there anything for this language right now or what we've discussed that will go in a new draft, anything we've discussed for DOC or DMV that you see as flags? Or are you both comfortable with the language that we've discussed in our proposal.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Counsel wasn't here yesterday. So just as what I brought forward yesterday in testimony was DMV would request instead of passing if this goes forward, not happening upon passage versus giving us that time to 01/01/2027, specifically regarding detainees.

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: To get your IT system up.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: To get the system up.

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: Yeah. That's correct. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So it would only be for the detainee portion of on driver ID. Mhmm. Yeah. And the rest can take effect July 1?

[Christine "Chris" Scott (Director of Operations, Vermont DMV)]: That's in our miscellaneous Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Whatever it is. Mhmm. On DOC's part, Monique?

[Monique Sullivan (Facility Operations Manager, Vermont DOC)]: No, I don't think so. It's just a small expansion of the process that we're already doing. But I did email the person who takes care of who actually does the paperwork and processing. And I asked her to connect with our surrounding states to find out what would be required to have an inmate get a birth certificate. They won't give it to DOC. So, I'm going to she's asking, okay, if you can't give it to DOC, how does my inmate get one? So, maybe we can expand that process.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you, Monique. Anything else before we take this back up on Tuesday afternoon? That would be great. I don't know if you can do it, or if Damian can provide backup this time. How about you? It's fair that I should go on

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the hot seat next time. Maybe I will coordinate about

[Damien Leonard (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this way too. I will happily sit on the side next time.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else from the committee before we wrap it up? Okay, thank you, Damian. Thank you, Hillary.

[William Chittenden (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you, you, Doctor.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Nancy. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So we're done for the week. I bet you everybody's glad. That's why this is torture for everyone.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: No. No. Three two zero two.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're back here on Tuesday, the seventeenth, and