Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: First. This is a different world.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Fair enough. Freeze it.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Okay.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: So,

[Speaker 0]: folks, this is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is Friday, February 13. Friday the thirteenth. This is our morning meeting. We have with us a group of folks from the Housing and Conservation Board just to talk with us in terms of projects that have occurred over the years. They have some handouts. And we have with us today Michael Montey, who's the chief executive officer of the Champlain Housing Trust. Michael, you and I go way back. No. House Natural Research.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: I was saying he went way back with you. And I said, I think I might beat you by a little bit, but I think he actually beat me.

[Speaker 0]: Who said that?

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Chris Donnelly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well.

[Speaker 0]: I knew him when he was a

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: little kid. I know. I didn't have that.

[Speaker 0]: No, I did. You were in Natural Resources committing with

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: us A lot.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: A lot back

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: in the years. I worked for the city of Burlington, you know, we're looking to build a Waterfront Park, and we had we struggled to get a Waterfront Park built, and we had to go to natural resources. But thank you for the time today. I'm the CEO of Champagne Housing Trust. First, let me say two things. One, Chittenden's work. And I would urge you to sort of continue that, to expand that. In the world of the work that we do, we're always finding that there are some folks who just need that level of work. Most folks don't, who work maybe unhoused, but a lot of folks do, and this is the opportunity, I think, to get them on the right path. So that's one thing. Two, let me introduce to you two board members of CHP, whom you may not know, or you may know, Joan Luneau and Helen Head. If we're successful sometimes legislatively, it's because of those two.

[Speaker 0]: We know how the place works. They

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: are whispering in the ears of the staff at CHT about what to do and how to do things. So very, very happy to be. They've been long term board members, and we're really, really happy as staff and as leadership to have them on the board for a number of years. So, is there a slideshow behind me? There it is. Okay. Okay, no worries. I mean, do you wanna share a screen with me? I don't have a screen. Well, know that part. I want you to see that too. But if you have that in front of you, excellent. Okay, I'll go. Turn the page or turn the slide or something like that. Okay. So thank you for the time today and especially for your service. We would ask you to provide testimony on a particular project we have completed just recently in Shelburne. It's probably one of a kind, generational maybe, we'd love to be able to do them often and yearly, but we know that's gonna be difficult. But this one in particular is very impactful. So very briefly, a little bit CHT. We provide a range of housing programs and services, from services and programs to the kinds of housing that we do build, along a continuum ranging from homelessness to homeownership. So it isn't just one thing we do. We believe strongly that people who are on housing need a place. We also believe strongly that the opportunity for people to build wealth for homeownership is critical. And so we do a wide range of things and give people a chance to be housed along a continuum. We've principally served Northwest Vermont, but do have a few programs that operate statewide. Some loan programs, some mobile home lending programs, farmworker housing programs. As you could see from the slide or wherever you're looking, we are relatively large in size and capacity, a little bit bigger than most of the nonprofits in the state. And as a result, we act as a resource to many of the folks in the state of Vermont. But let me be clear that what's been critical in terms of us doing our work has been the support we have received from the legislature and the support that we have received from Vermont Housing Conservation Board. We can leverage federal resources when we can, but often enough, it's state resources that are critical. Something out behind me?

[Speaker 0]: No, yeah. Yeah, I'm wondering, can you hang on? Do we have trouble trying to share the screen? Yeah.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Can't get on the Wi Fi. Oh, okay.

[Speaker 0]: A different world than thirty years ago.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: He's good, thank God. I can tell you that I have it on my phone, and I could hold it up. But I'm not sure if it's the same, it's up there

[Speaker 0]: next. Great.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: See it, but not us. Okay. So I when I think about the redevelopment in Shelburne, let me just say I I wanna recall the origins of how we bought the property. We purchased the Econo Lodge, and we branded it as Harborplace in 2013.

[Speaker 0]: So shop Pichon? Yeah. That's a Shelton one.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Go to Harborplace. Yeah.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: That's what not I'm gonna do like this when I got a slide change. How's that? Cool. We purchased the account and rebranded it as Harborplace. And we believed that we could provide a lower cost and better service model than the traditional motel program that was operating in the state at the time. And in fact, that was true. It was successful. But when we started it, we also had a plan B because we didn't know if it was gonna really work. After a year, we said, okay, at least we own 5.5 acres in Shelburne. We got the building, the property for a good price. We'll operate this program. And if it doesn't work, we could always redevelop it. Next slide. Well, the model worked, and so well in the fact that we went off and bought 11 other motels and used them for a variety of different purposes, repurposing them in different ways from shelters to affordable rental housing. And that's been a sort of very active work for us. It's actually less expensive to buy an old motel and convert it. That's been happening around the state now here and there. And we've kind of run out of the cheap ones at this point in Chittenden County, but we're sort of always on the lookout for that opportunity. Next slide. So after ten years, the original Harvard Place was getting old and tired and all that. Although a couple of the buildings were worth saving, most needed to come down. So in 2023, we began to do plan b. As a result, Bay Ridge was born. And as you can see, there's a ribbon coming here. We cut the ribbon in the opening this just past fall after a three year development process. It's a new neighborhood with 68 apartments and 28 shared equity homes. Here is a site plan. Next slide. And basically what I'll say is that all of this here, down here is all new housing, all new development. Two of the original motel buildings that we had,

[Speaker 0]: we had

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: 10 units in them, were efficiencies, we renovated those. So we kept 20 of the existing properties, and we added a whole pile more, all new buildings, all new home ownership in this location, rental in this location. For a long time, I got, as I was walking around Chittenden County, so wow, what are you building? And it really does showcase itself up on Sheldon Road in a way that is a little bit different than perhaps a regular development. So next slide. The apartments are a wide range of bedroom sizes with some being deeply affordable. 30 households will have vouchers. Another 20 families will be exiting homelessness, moving out of shelters, moving out of the street, out of motels. Let me just say that most of the people who live here work. I think sometimes there's a misnomer that the affordable housing we build, where people are just simply low income and are not working. About I asked yesterday, and about 75, 80% of the people who are working, who live in this, even the people who are homeless, some are working. The people who are getting vouchers are not getting their full freight paid. Those are people who have social security who are disabled, right, who are not able to work. They're probably getting the full value of the vouchers, but some people are just getting a little bit of help off the vouchers, just enough to make their housing affordable. And I think that it's really good to sort of express the fact that this is worker housing often enough. This is workforce housing. When 80% of the people here are working, and it's still affordable for a wide range of incomes, I think you have success, and you have a mixed income, essentially rental building.

[Speaker 0]: I have a question here, my short James?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Just to orient myself or anybody else who doesn't know, where exactly in Shelburne, what is this? Is it below, like, tractor Supply and stuff? Yeah. Shawn doesn't let me come to Shelburne.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: So Yeah. That's that's It's it's it's Tractor Supply and Shawn's place. But

[Speaker 0]: his place is a little smaller. Yeah.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: But it is a little But

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I think it's important to also say that the Erington Village behind my place is very similar to that with a lot of people working as well.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: I wasn't done yet. But Yeah. No.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: That's fine. So

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: so it's between there as Yeah. It's next to Dan Form's shoes Okay. If that helps you. Got you. Yeah. That's the best place to buy shoes in Chittenden County. That's right next to Dan Form shoes.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Sorry about my shoes, except in my That's

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: right, right in front of Honda, the Honda.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: It's gonna be two

[Brian Minier (Member)]: for one from Dan Form. From

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Anyway, sorry. Thank you. Sure.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: This helps to know where something is. Yeah.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Absolutely. And it's Bay Ridge, and it's Harborplace because it's really on the Bayside looking out over.

[Speaker 0]: Joan, did you have anything?

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Yeah. So, yeah, 17 and a quarter heated for a three bedroom is is is a great rate these days. Yeah.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: And it's a high level.

[Joan Luneau (Board Member, Champlain Housing Trust)]: So, if somebody has a that's also way below the voucher rate. Yeah. So if somebody has a voucher, they just or or is is their rent just adjusted to whatever the voucher allowance is?

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: The the rent the rent is adjusted to 30% of their income. So if you're renting one of our units, no matter what we have a fixed price. If And you bring a voucher, then we'll adjust it to your income. Everybody else is paying the the the the proposed rent the set rent.

[Joan Luneau (Board Member, Champlain Housing Trust)]: But as far as your gross rent rolls, I mean, the voucher rate, which were three heated with I don't know. Okay. Yeah. It varies. But it'd be something like $2,300 vicinity.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: It's less than that. Yeah. It's much less than that.

[Joan Luneau (Board Member, Champlain Housing Trust)]: So alright. And this is your question is if are there, like, market rate apartments where the rent is less than than if somebody has a has a a voucher that you're working with?

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Alright. So, again, we're we're setting the rents at a range of incomes. I didn't put them up there at 30%, 50%, 60%, up to 80%. So this three bedroom is one example. So there's a wide range of rents. And, frankly, people sit there and say, Okay, I have this application, and where do I fit them in this pegboard of different kinds of incomes and all of that? So there's a wide range. So having a three bedroom, there'll be a wide range of rents in those three bedrooms, depending upon how we have set up the program for the tax credit program. So the higher the voucher number might actually be higher in terms of what we're paying as a market rent. So the voucher holder, though, comes in, and they're still just paying 30% of their rent.

[Joan Luneau (Board Member, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Understood. Right? Okay. Did I get there? I think so.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Okay. We can talk about

[Joan Luneau (Board Member, Champlain Housing Trust)]: it later. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: again, I think fully occupied, leased up very quickly, a big effort to reach out to Shelburne businesses. And so you have a wide range of folks in Shelburne who are looking for, hey, I need a place closer to the work that we're having in a number of places like Wake Robin or Shelton Farms or some of these other places. We also did a number of There's a solar field that's across the street that is connected to this development project. And I was told very clearly that we're gonna that this project has gotten out cleaner water coming off of this site than it did before because of the work we did to ensure that the lake was not going to receive the sort of the stuff that came came off the road that was there previously. We made sure there was stormwater ponds. We made sure that the water was all being managed well before it got into the lake. So a large development with which yields a better result for the lake as well in terms of what we did. So if we can move on to the condominiums. We also created 26 condominiums, I'll call this workforce homeownership. Okay? Because in fact, here the folks here are working. And these are two and three bedrooms at very good prices. I think if you see here, this is, what, a 170 169,000. I think they're bound up. 178,000, 190,000 for two and three bedrooms, which are remarkably low. And let me say these are two and three bedrooms, two car garages, mudroom, really two baths, really well done. These are not inexpensive tiny homes. These are actually just smaller than your, you know, single family home on a big lot, but they are certainly well done for folks. And people moved in, immediately started planting flowers around their place, immediately started complaining about their neighbors. We'll see.

[Speaker 0]: That's not

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Exactly what exactly what homeownership is about. So we're happy about that. So all like in everything we do, everything we do will be permanently affordable. And I'm gonna wind down now here because I'm gonna show you, and your eyes will glaze over, what we call the capital stack. Only 16 sources went into creating the affordable rental housing. Only 16. A major part of that was the Vermont Housing Conservation Board, a significant investment. And the homeownership, if you took a look at the next slide, there were only eight sources, so it was a little easier. But again, Vermont Housing Conservation Board, once again, being a fairly significant part of the support that we got. So this is probably a once in a lifetime project, I think. I hate to say that. Because we did Harrington Village, which is a decent size, and we're doing things at Cambrian Rise. What I like to be able to say, it's a once in a year project. We really could use the resources to build something like this on a regular basis. That's what's needed, right? Again, what I wanna state is almost everyone here is working. These are working people who need good, affordable housing. This provides an opportunity for your businesses in Chittenden County to really you know, live and prosper. At the same time, we're also making sure that the people who need the housing the most are being housed and got an opportunity to be able to house the people who are on house at this point and getting them off the streets and solving that problem as well. You can do a number of different things when you build something like this, with the number of units and the different types and styles of housing that we have, both homeownership and rental. So we'd love to be able to do this again. We need, like I said, we need to do more of these. And with your support, we can. Thank you so much.

[Speaker 0]: So I have a question on some of the funding, because I'm looking on the funding sources and also that one.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Which one do you want?

[Speaker 0]: If you go to the previous page, and this is a big influx of 9,500,000.0 came from the ARPA.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Yeah. That's right.

[Speaker 0]: And that's no longer

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: That's right.

[Speaker 0]: There. And then you've you got quite in different places from HUD. Where some of it was earmarks from our congressional delegation, but also there's other HUD funding and Vermont Housing Finance, but particularly the HUD funding and any federal monies. Is there concern that those dollars might not be there for future projects? So

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: there is nothing more anxious about than watching other than watching you all, I think it's pretty easy, but watching the federal government make laws. Right? And so and how the house and the senate bounces things back and forth. And the truth is is that after what seemed to be a devastating proposal for a budget, This year, this last year, this budget that they agreed upon, which they just voted on, is actually positive in terms of sort of keeping everything stable. Same amount, CDBG is fully funded. HUD projects are fully funded. There are some congressionally directed spending in here. We have some money coming for a project in Winooski. We have some money coming here for a couple of different sources. So that's still happening. So this year's budget has been set settled. Do I have concern? We're watching it all the time. We'll sort of watch the impact of the vouchers suddenly disappearing and the difficulty that was and how you all actually came through your budget adjustment act with some additional funds to sort of ease that sort of difficulty that was happening and say why with the voucher. But I would say that it's a deep breath right up until maybe next October 1, right?

[Speaker 0]: I mean, we're so dependent on other sources, because there's no way that the state can fill in some of those holes.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Joe? Are those tax credits state and or federal?

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: The Low Income Housing Tax Credit is a federal tax credit. It's all federal. RBC is the Royal Bank of Canada.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I mean, there is Biden at a discount, but

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: it's federal. It's it's federal tax. Tax. It's Yeah. And we do a decent number both. This is a loan comprehensive tax credit program, but it's a 4% program, which is basically it's using less of the tax credit program than a 9%, which is scarce in terms of resources. In other words, it's a high competition for the 9% tax credit. 4% not as much. And so what the other sources are able to do is leverage that 4% credit. So you see it's 14,000,000 up on top, but it's really only about 25% or 30% of the bottom line. We're able to do that here with a 4% because of all these other resources. And frankly, those other resources are what's made this project work. I think we've been urging you all to at least take some consideration for the fact that there is a cliff. If all of this disappears and there's not some additional funds, do the best you can. I

[Speaker 0]: mean, the big piece there that help that is going away is the American Rescue. I put 9.5. It's only for a five year period of time. That's gone.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: That's right. And so Chris could bring you in a chart about what happens if we don't have any of that and sort of what happens with the number of units that's created. We're sort of urging some additional resources to BACB in order to be able to at least make that slope, not a cliff, and be able to ease into sort of like a better pattern of development. Because previous to COVID, we would do twenty eight percent of time in Chittenden County, which when you think about it, it's not a lot. And at one point we actually had, when the governor came forward and you all supported the bond vote, we had a large boost in housing. And we were building 60 to 70 units at a time. We did two of those, right, with that bonded money. But that bonded money disappeared, ARPA money moved in, and we kept at a fairly strong pace. If we went back to pre bond money, we're doing 20 units at a time in Chittenden County. And that's just not gonna do it. I mean, frankly, just not. And I know it's difficult here to balance out what you have in terms of needs, but it's not gonna really move us forward the way a project like this, which is housing a few 100 people, you know, in terms of the families. We have larger units here, larger bedroom sizes here. And it's able to house quite a number of folks and to be able to do this on a regular basis. And we're still writing a few of the upper monies. We got a couple of projects downtown, one project downtown, one out on North Avenue, one in Pinesburg and Winooski. We're still riding some of this resources that are available, but that's gonna disappear.

[Speaker 0]: Shawn, and then Conor?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I just have to say I have a tremendous amount of respect and and admiration for what you have done in Chittenden County, and I think it's neat. And it and I just wanna make that clear to my committee members that what you've done up there is nothing short of a miracle. It doesn't stop. And that whatever we can do, everybody in this room, to help people like Champlain Housing Trust build housing for people is is the answer. The answer is sitting in this in this room with us. It it does we don't have to look any farther than that. And I just I just needed to say that, and I'm I'm surrounded by projects you've done and you've given. And I know a lot of those people who are in the Harrington Village, and and they are good people, and you gave them a shot at something that they really didn't have in their lives. And I've seen it change their lives. And I just I just needed to say that.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: That's all. Yeah.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Michael, I echo Shawn. This is good news going into the weekend too. You've had a barn burner a week in committee.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: I'm glad I could help.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: I was wondering, we're at the corrections committee, and big issue is we have a lot of folks pass their minimums incarcerated, right? Only for lack of housing. And we're spending millions every year on that. So he's wondering, does the trust have any partnerships with Corrections? Because I'm just thinking, like, you know, it's it's really tough to place, obviously. You know, it's it's tough to find partners.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Yeah. So let me just say this. We we did, and it simply was not able to be filled. We actually sold it to Pathways recently for the Stereo House, the building and the building that we developed for people, young folks who are having psychotic breaks. We're open though, and we continue to have that opportunity. So I have, at CHG, now houses about 500 people who are formerly homeless, corrections counts as that, that group. We have 12 people, resident services folks who are working with a variety of organizations and agencies, including Corrections to move people into our housing. And so, again, that's a critical mission for us, as I showed you in one of the early slides, it goes from home to assisted home ownership and all that opportunity. So we do have partnerships. I can't tell you precisely where I am at right now, but we have a director of resident services and a group of folks who are constantly talking about keeping people housed. When people are housed with us who are formerly homeless, 90 to 95% of them stay housed. In other words, we bring them success. Not everybody can. People still need maybe a different housing type or simply fail. That's just a world we're in. You're in correction, so you're not listening to work. So it's not always easy, but we can really lean into that work. Nobody pays for that. These two over here raise money for that. Let's bring in money for resources to be able to support folks who are residents who need that support. So I'll follow-up a little bit more.

[Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah. If there's any creative ideas, because we're spending $90,000 a person in corrections, you know, it's for lack of housing. We should be able to connect the dots, but I'm so glad you're thinking of it. Thanks so much.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Thank you. Kevin? Yeah, I would echo too. It sounds wonderful. I don't think I understand. Of the two charts, I'm looking at about $65,000,000 Yep. That was one time money to bring these facilities up to being available. Yep. I would assume they're fully occupied. Yep. So you must have a waiting list for people who would like to We get about 3,000 applications a year. Okay. And you must have criteria for selecting who gets to use it or not. Yep. Would imagine that's difficult because there's a lot of people who can't come in. How much of your year to year expense, if you will, to maintain is covered by the people occupying the buildings. Yep. As opposed to being subsidized by someone.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Yep. Would- Percentage wise, dollars. Sure. So there was somebody at CHT whose sole job was to make sure that the buildings, each property, is sustainable and pays its own way, pays the fees to property management, pays the fees to maintenance, pay puts money aside to do the capital needs of the building. So our intention always with every project that we do is that they don't need to go to anyone else for capital improvements and needs. Now what I'll say is that most properties are decent, like successful. I would say 90% of the various property, we treat each one separately as its own. Each one is sustainable and has what I would call a green light from us. We have a handful that are not doing so well that we need to go in and refinance and rethink and redo. But that's just the nature of the sort of the beast that we have in terms of how we initially capitalize it or how we, what might have been used, what the property might have been used for. This one should be sustainable for a long time and should pay for all of its capital needs. Every property has a fifteen year capital plan, every property has a five year capital plan, And there's a core of about four people whose work is to make sure that that work is happening at every property to make sure that they're sustained and don't need any money from anybody else. I'm the guy who they come to say, this isn't working. So I short have list of properties that go in, Okay, what do we do about this? What do we do about that? Where do we go? So every once in a while it happens. 95% of the housing that we do have is self sustaining. It doesn't need any more resources. Every once in while, have to refinance. Refinance or recapitalize some money and ask for it. But mostly, we go for tax credit funds, if we can. Every once in a while, we go to BACP, but they they say to us, you all want new units, and we we appreciate that. So yeah. Makes sense. Questions. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Brian?

[Brian Minier (Member)]: I'm I'm fearful of derailing our conversation, and it was better to talk later than happy to do it. But I'm thinking back to the comment that you made earlier in your presentation about the accountability for it and what a good thing it's been. We've heard a lot from people in judiciary. We've heard a lot from people in the correctional system. They all agree. I think this is the first we're hearing from a provider, and I'd love to hear more. But so what are you seeing? How does it influence

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: what you're So, you know, I we're in the middle of Burlington. We're in the middle of we're we're at 88 King Street. We look over the King Street Center, And we have properties a block away that's looking over City Hall Park. So what we do see is sort of like criminal activity. And we have seen over the last couple of years a change from the policing in terms of being more responsive and being more positive. And we've seen a couple of other things that have been changed, including the accountability court. And I have somebody on our board who does the Community Justice Center who directs that, who is involved in that sort of activity. And we can sort of see that, in fact, the number of cases of people who were not, who before did not have any account of knowledge now have something stronger to work with. And so I'm going on to a successful rate in terms of the numbers of folks that have been adjudicated, if that's the right word. And certainly, the number of folks we know now have something that is different than having nothing at all. So I think it's going to be six months where I could truly say, wow, that was great. Certainly moving through the cases and making that work has been valuable, I think, at the local level. And this is sort of my conversations with the police, with the city of Burlington, with the Community Justice Center folks, and saying how valuable and useful it's been in terms of also our resident services staff who know that there are people who are bouncing around our properties and causing some chaos, and how that they have some accountability now that's different than before. Thank you. Does that make sense? It does, okay.

[Speaker 0]: Anything else?

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: It stayed longer than I thought I was gonna say.

[Speaker 0]: No, this is fine.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: This is what You to go put money in the meter.

[Speaker 0]: You're used to testifying. This is great. This is very, very helpful.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: This is fun testimony compared to some.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Okay. I'll come back next week.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Whatever it could you need, Kevin.

[Speaker 0]: It's for state dollars at work.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Yeah. I appreciate that.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: It is. And that's important for you to hear, I think, is that it really, really has made a difference. And keep it up if you can.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Suraj. It's great. Thank you. Alright.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: So I need to scoot out with Mary. So there's two other folks who are coming up, and there are some documents as well. You don't have to take us long as Michael did. But I'm not sure which one would be due next.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I am going to call on Bold Creek Common Lands. Hannah.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Well, what? No. No.

[Speaker 0]: Come on up. Yeah. This is Hang on.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: But this is not Vermont adapted.

[Speaker 0]: It's Vermont adapted.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: You got two eyes of our blood. The Vermont Adaptive is not on there.

[Speaker 0]: Oh, it's not. Okay.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Sorry. So your name wasn't on there. Sorry. Can you do us a favor and introduce yourself for the record?

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: My name's Erin Fernandez, and I'm the executive director at Vermont Adapted Ski and Sports. And I think the story I'll tell you today is kind of an anomaly for this committee, but also our budget doesn't look anything like what Champlain Housing looks like. We really have been around for forty years, but we don't rely on federal or state money on any sort of consistent basis. We have a 2,000,000 operating So you can hear it down

[Speaker 0]: here. Sorry. That's fine.

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: So we have a $2,000,000 operating budget that we sustain annually year over year. And when we do get the opportunity to work with important funds like the HCV, it's a game changer for us. So in between capital projects or really important milestones that we can make, essentially, we don't rely on any state or federal dollars. So, what Vermont Adaptive does is we provide recreation for people with disabilities, and we do that for people who live in the state of Vermont and for tourists.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: You want him to forward your slides?

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Oh, yes, please. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. Yep. I'll give you a

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: So thinking of that, I have 17 full time staff. And in 2025, Vermont Adaptive provided more than 5,700 outings. And that's the number of adventures we put out for the year. And we use dozens of locations throughout the state, but we are mostly known for our skiing programs at Sugarbush, Killington, Pico. We just expanded our operation and merged with another organization, where they merged in two hours. So, now we're at Strattenden. So, essentially, we're the whole corridor of that Route 100, Route 1 corridor. So, we anticipate going to 7,000 outings this year. We also provide our programs on a scholarship sliding scale, so people who can't afford our programming are always welcome to still come and join. And we quantify that number based on the discounts. So if somebody says to us, We can't afford to pay, we say, What can you afford to pay? Can you afford $5 And so essentially, we've given over $230,000 in scholarships in 2025. So not only are we removing a physical barrier, we're removing an economic barrier for anybody who wants to participate. We have four fifty volunteers throughout the state. We provide all their training for them, and they give their time and talent, and it's over ten thousand hours annually to support our programming. So the team is 17 staff and four fifty volunteers, and usually about 20 interns a year. We're an example of when you fund programs like the HCV and they can do something outside of housing, which is important, this investment can help us grow and be more sustainable. And so VHCV brought us to this next level by helping us purchase a property in Rochester, Vermont, central part of the state. That's an important thing for us. And we're going to open an outdoor education and retreat center. I've been working on this project for two years, with the land trust and BHCB, but I've also been trying to get this project done for over ten years. And so this is in addition to just daily operations, everything we do, 2,300,000.0. This is a capital project, and we've completed some pretty successfully throughout the years. And like I said, we're kind

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: of this

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: independent operation. So when you do support something like the HCV, you're bringing access for us, housing, workforce development, recreation, and an economic impact to the communities that we work in. So we have 100 acres now in Rochester, it's 125, actually. 20 acres are ours to work with that are excluded from what we put in with the Vermont Land Trust, and those 100 acres will be conserved in perpetuity. And we work with the HCB to perfect the property. We're going to develop our property with some accessible camping and adaptive recreation. There's already three miles of existing adaptive trails on that property. And it's just an example of what thoughtful conservation can look like. Thoughtful recreation where conservation meet together but also provides economic impact. And that house is going to be used for interns. And the thing about interns at Vermont Adaptive that's a little bit unique is that we have students that are gaining their certified rec therapy degree. And that's not as widespread as occupational therapy. It's not as easy to find that clinical hours to volunteer somewhere to get your clinical hours so you can finish with that degree. There's only one certified rec therapist that works in the state of Vermont. Most states have one working in every town, for example. So Vermont Adaptive is filling that void with our services and training all these folks for jobs here in Vermont, in recreation, or for their ability to be educate, finish their education. And recently, last several years, they can't stay in Vermont. They can't find affordable housing while they're trying to do their service hours so that they can complete their degree. And there is very limited specialized people that can offer the oversight for this degree track. And we are one, and we have been passed up by Colorado and Utah, which we consider our competition in general in the ski industry. But really, we want those interns. So housing, short term housing, affordable housing, while they're here with us, this house provides that solution. And it's not a statewide solution, because Rochester, commute, you can effectively get to our Sugarbush location really well and our Killington location really well. They're both equidistant about 20 miles. So, those programs will be impacted directly by our workforce development and having access to these interns who really help us run our programming while they're here. They're here to learn and we need them to So every CTRS applicant that we've had that wanted to come to Vermont, I would say 95% of them have been going out to Colorado or Utah because those programs already had housing opportunities. So, for the house right now, to get it ready for our interns, we're just doing efficiency repairs and accessibility upgrades, and to get it ready to work for year round. The outside property and the exterior of that space that we're developing for recreation, yurts, camping, spaces to be together, spaces to be mindful. We're using the whole holistic thinking of the whole body as we develop our recreational programs here at this space, in addition to outdoor education, which marries right back to conservation, and it marries right back to our land trust partnerships. So we did an economic impact study and contribute a pretty decent amount, we think, to the economy of Vermont in travel and tourism. And so, we'll go to this next slide. I love that space. Let's see, one in four adults, United States, identify as having some sort of disability. Our recreation programs are open to all ages and all types of populations of people with disabilities. We generate $10,300,000 in total economic output for our state, and we contribute 6,100,000.0 to Vermont's gross domestic product. And through our economic study, we found out we support 72 jobs, and we have 17 employees, and 55 in Europe. So, our athletes don't travel alone. They bring an average 3.1 people with them. Because of Vermont Adaptive, you're gaining 2.1 additional people contributing to our recreation and tourism economy. So, here's the important thing that I just want to make sure you understand how I fit into this bigger picture. VHCb helps anchor economic activity. And when we can partner with them for something like this, we have preserved 100 acres. We have free workforce housing for training and workforce development. We've added opportunities for adaptive access. We're creating jobs because we'll be bringing jobs into that community. And we're reducing, hopefully we're making more energy efficient consciousness decisions. And we also leveraged state and federal funds to make this happen. So, lot of our efficiency remodeling and development of the outside now that we own the property, I'm working with the What is it called, Kim? Northern Borders. Northern Borders Federal Grants. And so, it's a unique opportunity to partner all these things together when we're not a municipality and we're not anything like what you guys normally see or hear. First

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: off, I'll start it. I guess, thank you so much for coming. Obviously, economic impact matters, but working with individuals in any different situation, in this case, disabilities is very important. I've been thinking about how to say this while you're talking, listening at the same time, but as somebody, you know, some people with disabilities or whatever, or it could be depression, whatever it is shows, and for other people it doesn't, and you guys know this very well. And these guys know they've heard my story, that when somebody has a ton of metal and plastic and ceramic in their body at every place you can have it except for my niece, the amount of pain and stuff people go through, Just bringing the awareness to that for other people, and then saying, like, you don't have to quit. That wasn't the story I tell to everybody. I got hurt really, really bad in the military when I was 19, and I'm 52, I'll be 52 in one.

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: Driver of this was our veterans programs, because I wanted to bring a centralized location so we don't have to use hotels. We can have our own inclusive space where we can do what we do.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And my point was just simply that bringing awareness to that and just telling people, there's something for you. Like, we'll help you. We'll hold your hand. We'll do whatever. We'll be there emotionally, whatever it is. Don't give up. And I think that part is a great message now for having the opportunities to do things that they might not think they can do. So I really appreciate what you guys do. Brian?

[Brian Minier (Member)]: That actually helped to crystallize the thing that I was thinking about. So I only knew you through your there was a friend and former colleague who did adaptive ski as a volunteer. So that's Jim? This is Giron Bhatli.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Oh, Giron Anyway,

[Brian Minier (Member)]: so I'm looking at the one in Forest Ad. I'm thinking about what James has just said. I'm thinking about the fact that our parks folks, they do whatever radiating accommodations they can. So what am I not thinking about in terms of disability? And what sorts of things do y'all do that wouldn't be included in what the parks are trying to do with wheelchair access access or something? Am I forgetting about autistic people? Who am forgetting? What am missing?

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: The state is forgetting about having CTRSs, these certified rec therapists, working in each community. We don't have a population density in Vermont to have a adaptive rec department in each department. That is so commonplace in every other state that has larger population densities. Plus, we have one hospital that has one recreation therapist. So Vermont Adaptive is serving as that recreation therapy advisor to all of your state communities and people who need help, forgotten. So sometimes we go into communities where one school child wants to do their class trip, and we provide one piece of equipment to make that possible for them. That might be a two hour drive for us to bring that equipment to that school, make sure they know how to use it, bring the right volunteers. And what's not happening is Vermont Adaptive doesn't have consistent funding from the state to do these things. We run our own hustle, and we make it happen because we don't want anybody left behind. But we're also saving your municipalities tons of money and not having to hire additional staff. And that's because we've been here for forty years and just doing what we do that they don't need to then go on out. We partner with the federal Forest Service. We partner with the state parks people. We were here last week testifying for the recreation day. And, you know, we're leveraged like no other organization that I've ever really talked to, because we try to make it happen for every student that wants to get out there and for every veteran that should have a community that supports them.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: We appreciate it. Any other questions? Shawn?

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Aaron, thanks. So so you've made this purchase of this one building, and you just expanded down to Southern Vermont, which is really exciting. Do you have, like, a long term plan? Do do you do you see that you have it, can you share any of that with us?

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: Sure. Vermont Adaptive doesn't do anything without having sustainable infrastructure, because we are on our own, right? So we already know that. We're working on an endowment in building up that capital so that we can have a new source of income. But really, our plan is, some of our program fees do contribute to our operating budget. They contribute to about 10%. So everything else is through donations and through the partnerships that we create, and through once in a while accessing partnerships that also can be leveraged with state or federal dollars. So VHCb helped us get this project done, and it will be a sustainable project in and of itself, as well as adding our programs down at Stratton and Bromley. Those are a heavy lift. All of that is a heavy lift. I have 17 staff. And so, I get this done because the people I surround myself with are amazing. We just continue to grow slowly, and we know we'll add staff when we're operating this facility, and we just keep fundraising. We take that very seriously, and that's every donation, every individual that donates to our programs, that's how we make it happen.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Thanks. We definitely appreciate you coming in today, and thank you for all

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: you do.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Appreciate it

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: so much.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you so much.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: And

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: now I'll get it right. Bow Creek.

[Speaker 0]: Common lands.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Common lands. Bow Creek Common Lands.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Is our presentation

[Brian Minier (Member)]: We have one up on our website.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Tate's becoming really good at this.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: And it'll be the same thing for I assume you're Hannah, right?

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: I'm Hannah. Okay.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: So just introduce yourself for the record and take it from there.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Great. Yeah. I'm Hannah Regier. I am the chair of the board of Bull Creek Common Lands. And we are all volunteer land trust based in Athens, Vermont. My colleague, Deborah Clark, who's also on the board, is Hi, Deborah. With me. And, yeah, we're here also as grateful recipients of VHCB funding, most recently for this Bull Creek headwaters project that I'd like to share with you all today. So this before we move on, I guess I'll just this this beautiful image here is the actual headwaters pond of the Bull Creek Watershed, and it's about a six acre pond, one of many crown jewels of this property.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: And you can move to the next slide. This is

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: another view of the same pond. So the project that we completed in November 2025 took three years to complete. And what it ended up being was 341 acres of headwater forests and wetlands. And since we're talking about money today, I'll share what our budget was. And we're we're a very small team of all of volunteers. So this is a smaller budget than the previous presenters, but it was big for us. The project cost was 950,000. VHCBs supplied about a third of that, so $315,000, which was split between Bull Creek Common Lands and Vermont Land Trust who held who now holds a conservation easement on the land. And then the other third of the project was supported by foundations and private donations. Sorry. One third VHCb, one third foundations and private donations, and one third leverage with bargain sales and land donations. This is just to give you some context of where we are, and this is a watershed map of the state since we're working on natural features scales. The Bull Creek flows into the Saxtons River, which flows into the Connecticut River. And this is an area that is a focal area for so many people looking at land conservation. It's one of the Nature Conservancy's focal areas. All of the land that we conserved checks all of the highest priority boxes for Vermont conservation design. And we also know that Southeastern Vermont is underrepresented in conservation statewide.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: You may have a dumb question. We use the word conserve all the time. What does that mean that this land is conserved?

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Sure. There's two things, and some people kind of call it this belt and suspenders approach. But it's, first of all, owned by a nonprofit organization. Our mission is to own land in perpetuity. And then it also has a Vermont land trust conservation easement interest in it, which is kind of backup for the long term that provides some specific ecological protections to natural communities, vernal pools, wetlands. And it also restricts development and subdivision in this area.

[Speaker 0]: So it's owned Owned by Bull Owned

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: by the state.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: It's owned by Bull Creek Common Lands, which is a nonprofit.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Very good. Yeah. Yeah. It helps me.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Sorry, I should started with that. Yeah. Was there another question?

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: He just If

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: you wanna advance the slide, we can zoom into the actual area that we're talking about now. So the image on the left is the watershed, and you can see the outline, the kind of seven shaped outline of the town of Athens. And it's a pretty big land area in this small town. And I think, like other communities all around Vermont, Athens has experienced a lot of big floods in the last five years and also Hurricane Irene. But this area, it's kind of a high basin. And in the inset map, you can sort of see all of the green and blue areas that are There's over 20 acres of wetlands and different types of wetlands. So some forested wetlands, some open wetlands, which just all really help in that floodwater retention. There are sponges for the whole community that's lower elevation. And I guess while we're on this map, there's a trail that I can in the southwest corner here. So this is this is what's on our our website right now for public access. The whole property is open to the public, Dispersed access, hunting, and also starting in the spring, there will be a new section of trail that connects a couple of old roads. And you can say

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: it.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: You do? Question?

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: So

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: it's kind of so it's taller too. It's 1,300. But like what that's

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: what's the highest peak there? Is it

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: I think you're I think you're about right with 12 or 1,300 feet. Yeah.

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Well, the one is 1,400, but then it goes up again. Or does it go down?

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: No. It does go up from that. So it goes to maybe 16.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Yeah. That's

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: 16. So it's pretty

[Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: so so there's some nice like, it's mountainous down there.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: It is. Yeah. So these are kind of Green Mountain Foothills. Yeah. We're on the Western edge of the Piedmont, Eastern edge of the Green Mountains.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Yeah. Thanks. I just yeah.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Yeah. It's definitely, like, a rugged rolling hill.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: So I'm just gonna kind of run through a few of these community impact items that it's really this ripple effect, I feel like, from the initial funding. But like I said, the land is open to the public. This is land that has been long used by local people and kind of like de facto public access because of landowners who didn't post their land. But starting about three years ago with this specific land area, there's three separate parcels. One of them went on the market, then another one did. And we were just seeing the future of the loss of that public access. One of the parcels was owned by a lumber company who harvested some timber and then were planning on flipping it. And so that was, I think, concerning for multiple reasons for the local people who used the land. And so I feel like this project is doing a service to everybody who really appreciates the open space and what we consider our rural Vermont landscape. The next slide just shows a little bit of the trail. So there's old roads in this area and the trail, you can advance it. The trail connects two of the old roads. So from Athens to Townsend, just one of those hill roads that doesn't exist anymore, and a beaver pond blocked it. But we're building a new trail section around this area. So formalizing some recreation in an area that had been kind of blocked off. And moose use it too.

[Speaker 0]: I know I'm coming in terribly. I apologize. Was any of this property or land owned at all by the Department of Forests and Parks? No. It wasn't? Okay. No,

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: this was all private land, three separate parcels and different stories for each of them, but two large ones were on the market, and we were able to step in with VHCb's help and purchase those.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Are you talking about

[Speaker 0]: other services? Because

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: So since you went there, I love scenes. In fact, I can't wait till we have green leaves around it.

[Speaker 0]: I know. It's beyond efficient.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Yeah.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Because it sounds like they were private properties before it became conserved. So I'm assuming there was a tax base that was given up because of that.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Oh, actually, we pay taxes. Bull Creek Common Lands pays full taxes. I mean, we enroll in current use, but we pay the tax bill that the towns send us.

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: Okay. So the towns are not hurting?

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: The towns are not out anything. Yeah. We're just like any other landowner from the town's point of view. Yeah.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Thank you for letting me know that.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a process for nonprofits if they want to apply for tax exemption. But all of the small land trusts in Southern Vermont that I'm aware of, we all pay taxes just for that reason so that we're supporting the towns. So we did possibly avert a house being built, and we know that there's a housing crisis. But the type of house that would have been built with a view of the Headwaters Pond isn't something that would have been affordable to anyone in our neighborhood, for sure. And so we're working definitely within we're working in towns that have planning but not zoning. And we're definitely working within what the town plans are showing as like resource protection areas, which without zoning, this is just this is showing a cleared house lot and a log landing on the parcel that overlooks the pond. And we'll see on the couple of slides ahead that we're actually working to help restore that area right now. People looking the next one is a bunch of people looking at a ditch. So it's one of the one of the nice ripple effects. If you go to the next slide. Yeah. Sorry. I think I might have just been one slide off from what you all were looking at. Owning the land has given the community this opportunity to do some restoration work with the help of NRCS. And so we're all standing around looking at this ditch that was in an eroded logging road. Some prior logging activity had left without creating water bars. And so we've stepped in there and done a lot of work to retain the topsoil on this land and keep it out of Bull Creek itself to keep water quality high. And also hiring some local people to do that work with us. And then the next slide is showing some additional tree planting work, some tree protection work, just looking a little bit closer at yeah, like the ways that the land can help us to be flood resilient, planting buffers. Like, you know, this is a beaver pathway in one of the big open meadows. Anything we can do to keep this land healthy and reciprocal nature with the human community. And then there's some neat history on the land. I won't go into all the detail. Me and my colleagues have done a lot of research on this family that lived in the area, but they were incredible stone builders. And there's actually like a state archaeological site now on the property that's protected in our conservation easement that is a particular type of French building style, colonial French building style. But the area is still known to locals as the Turtle Lot Lot, which the Turtle Lot family were the settlers there. And they persisted for over one hundred years up until the 1880s. But the name remains on the land. And we're naming the trail the Turtle Lot Trail.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: And what is that structure on the That's

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: a well.

[Speaker 0]: Oh, it's a well looking down.

[Hannah Regier (Chair, Bull Creek Common Lands)]: Yeah, it's a well, one of the cellar holes. Cool. Yeah, yeah, it's neat. Yeah. And then the and here is this. I think this is this is the impact that the folks on the board are most enthusiastic about is just the amazing natural features of the land, plants and animals. And yeah, just thinking that they need this space to flourish. Biodiversity is a really important thing, but it's also a really beautiful thing to encounter and to know that we're living amongst. The birds and the orchids. Count two. And I just wanted to end, I guess, with some these are some community quotes, some voices. I don't know if they're large enough to read, but we did do some community outreach over the last couple of years and asked some other people who were serving what they love about their neck of the woods. And it was just really gratifying to hear this real interest in protecting land, in having a balance of recreation and not having too much use that land gets degraded. So awesome. Great. On behalf of the land and all this community, really would love to see the the funding for projects like this continue. We we have a we have pipeline that probably goes for a couple of years right now, and nothing as large as this. But we're in touch with other small land trusts in Southern Vermont also who are all doing the same type of work.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Thanks for all your hard work. Appreciate it.

[Speaker 0]: And the testimony today really shows how it's so important for state dollars to make these projects come to fruition, because we usually fill in the hole. Is it possible? And it's really great that folks could come in and share this because it really shows us, we sit in our little committee room and we don't realize what impact, positive or negative, that has out there in our communities. And it's really fruitful for legislators to see the results. Wonderful. The result will laugh at any time. That was just rant. Yeah. I'll have to be warm. Year before

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: I tell you that. But when I

[Speaker 0]: came in, I said, oh, it was warm this year.

[James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, guys, for coming, and you should be really proud of what you do.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: So we we appreciate Thank you so much.

[Erin Fernandez (Executive Director, Vermont Adaptive Ski & Sports)]: Thank you. Thank you

[Unidentified/Multiple speakers (diarization mix)]: so So

[Speaker 0]: for the committee, it's time to take a quick lunch break. We're back here at 12:00 to work on driver's license for two minutes. I just want to bring the committee up to speed. I had a really good conversation with Mary Jane, James Gregoire, in terms of what do we do with the parole board. I brought her the questions that we had the other day in terms of her budget needs and what does she really need, what programs are out there in the budget that she really needs. And then legal representation. Is it more in training or is it more in the representation piece? She feels it should be for both. And then for some of her costing out the program and that structure of how she might help submit a budget and working within the agency of human services, I suggested to her that she and I James sit down with John Gray and work through language to put into a new draft for us to take a look at. And then I bounced off her in terms of where is the attorney general with their legal representation, is DOC with their representation, and there's this conflict. And some people say, yes, it's a conflict. And some people say, no, there's no conflict. We can deal with it. And I suggested to Mary, said, well, one of my tactics that I have done over the years, and you folks, I know Mary's experienced it, I don't think many of you folks have experienced it yet. One of the things I tend to do, if there's two or three or four entities, groups that we get conflicting testimony or we get way down in the weeds and we can't get ourselves out, I say to them, go to the cafeteria and figure it out And then come back with your plan. So I asked Mary Jane, would that be possible for the AG's office and her and DOC, possibly someone from the agency of human services at my request, get together, knock heads, figure it out, have your candid conversations, and come back here with a plan. And she's willing to do that. And I told them when she connects with those folks, tell them it's a request from from me as the chair of the committee.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Yep.

[Speaker 0]: You gotta get off the dime here. And we just can't do it in testimony because then I get pulled out the hall and say, well, it's more like this or it's more like this. The committee can't go forward with something like that. So hopefully, maybe by the middle of next week, we might be able to have a little bit more direction.

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: Good. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: So that's that's what we talked about.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: I don't know if I missed it or didn't understand. Did you put your thumb on the scales in terms of a desired outcome or just go figure it out?

[Speaker 0]: Go figure it

[Michael Monte (CEO, Champlain Housing Trust)]: out. The

[Speaker 0]: desired outcome is that the board has legal representation.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: So we're agnostic on whether they're within Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: I said, you need legal backup. I said, the committee is pretty unified. You need legal backup. And it can't be a person that's representing both sides. So she agrees with that. And so go figure it out. Players, go in the cafeteria and dock heads. And if you can't come back with a plan, process, well, then we'll deal with that when we have to. But hopefully, maybe they can do that. So that's what I really wanted to have, a one on one conversation with Mary Jane. With that being said, let's go off