Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: Welcome back, folks. It's a good thing to hear from you. I'm Alexis. The College of Produce and Institutions Committee were getting settled. So a lot of flock a little bit thereafter on Thursday, February 5. And we have us DOC in terms of trying to remind us on House Bill two ninety four. This was introduced last year. And we are continuing work on this this year. We had a couple members in our committee, two separate subgroups working, one group working on telecom issues, the other one on commissary issues. But we do have a presentation from DOC to kind of reset the whole conversation with folks. So I'll turn it over to DOC. There is a document as well that's been handed out. So

[Speaker 1]: whoever wants to start, please identify yourselves for the record, Casey. Marlene Petit, Executive Director of Finance for Department of Corrections.

[Speaker 0]: What's her name again?

[Speaker 1]: Marlene Petit, the first name is Marlene.

[Speaker 2]: Linda Ladd, Financial Director for Department of Corrections.

[Speaker 0]: And how many other folks are here in the room to testify, just so I know the timeframe?

[Speaker 3]: We have a lot of folks here, but we're all just supporting. So Marlene and Linda will be driving the presentation, and we might have some folks chime in if there are specific things related to subject matter.

[Speaker 0]: So I have here Prison Policy Initiative. Is there anyone from Prison Policy Initiative? I'm online. They're online? So are you scheduled to testify as well or are you here to listen?

[Speaker 3]: I was, I believe scheduled to testify, although if that doesn't work, just let me know.

[Speaker 0]: And there were two others as well. Was it just you, Sarah?

[Speaker 1]: It's just me.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. So I want to make sure there's enough time here. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

[Speaker 3]: The first, we'll go to

[Speaker 1]: the first page or the second page with existing communication services and communication types. So we have phone voice calls. We have attorney client lines that are free, tablet messages, tablet video calls, and tablet voice messaging. In regards to the contract, the Vermont contract with ICS Solutions, who provides and manages tablet infrastructure. The contract term is February 2025 through February 2029 with two optional one year extensions. ICS Solutions provides each incarcerated individual two free calls per week. The tablets include educational and streaming materials, some for pay and some at no cost. The current costs are call zero point zero two eight minute additional international, Tablet messages, point two five per message. Tablet video calls, point one 6 per minute. And voice messaging, point two five per minute.

[Speaker 0]: So let me interrupt here. So we have a contract with IC Solutions. And the contract is from February to February '29. Okay? What do we pay for that contract? What's in DOC's budget? That is a zero cost contract. A zero cost contract. So DOC isn't paying the IC solution for any of that contract.

[Speaker 4]: There's $100,000 component to that contract. What's that for?

[Speaker 0]: That was I can see. Kristen Calvert, Deputy Commissioner of Corrections.

[Speaker 3]: We built that in representative in case we incurred some additional costs we weren't expecting. And there's some optional services in there that might cost money that are required. We just wanted

[Speaker 5]: to make sure there was stuff available. So

[Speaker 0]: the cost for IC Solution to provide this service is picked up by the inmates?

[Speaker 2]: That is correct, by the incarcerated individuals.

[Speaker 6]: And then is that done by the fees that they pay for the use of the tablets? That is Is that how it's recouped?

[Speaker 2]: That is correct.

[Speaker 6]: So you're assuming there's gonna be enough volume to pay for the hardware that you're providing in the no cost contract to b o c or DOC.

[Speaker 2]: I believe IC Solutions is anticipating.

[Speaker 0]: That's the way it works?

[Speaker 5]: Yes. Yep. And who

[Speaker 0]: provides the who pays for the tablet? Those are provided by IC Solutions. Is there a cost to that?

[Speaker 3]: There is no cost to get the tablet or to use it. It's just in the services.

[Speaker 0]: What if they fall short? What if there aren't enough calls made or enough messages made? What if they fall short of what?

[Speaker 3]: You know, we haven't run into that. The previous contract was structured the same way, and that's how it was designed in the request for proposals. So that would have to be something that the contractor assumes if they were awkward.

[Speaker 7]: Mary? So in contracting with this company, you're saying zero base, but what is your whole what is the whole contract cost of doing whatever they're doing? Because I can't believe we have all of this being provided, and there's no almost no cost.

[Speaker 3]: It is a $0 contract. We don't have any costs. That's the way that's historically been structured. The company gets funds from the pricing, mostly in commissary, and then a small bit of the extra services provided. FCC has capped any or eliminated any profits from phone calls and to an extent off video calls. But that's how that company gets paid essentially.

[Speaker 8]: I understood the answer to the chair. The risk is is IC Solutions. Right? That's correct. Yeah. We're not making up anything. Right. Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: Could you wanna know if we paid the contract instead of the fees paying the contract charges. You don't know what that cost would be. If if we picked up the cost of the contract instead

[Speaker 6]: It's the next page. I think the next page starts to answer that question.

[Speaker 0]: So I think that's where Mary was coming from, too. What would we be paying, Department of Corrections, paying for that contract if it wasn't recouped by the charges?

[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Do you guys want to walk through the call volume and the estimates? Obviously, it would be a little bit different, but we'll get to that.

[Speaker 1]: Call Okay. Volume and cost estimate to absorb fees. The call volume from November 1 to 01/31/2026, roughly order incarcerated Vermonters made 161,633 phone calls, $1,000,007.04 four nineteen forty six minutes at a cost of 82,383. And then 13,572 video calls and 1,000,004 actually, one hundred and forty one thousand one hundred forty eight minutes, and the cost is $18.09 37. The cost for DOC to absorb the call fees calculated costs based on the order, which was a total of 101,321, it would cost the department $405,284 to cover up phone and video calls annually. The volume is likely to increase with the option for unlimited free calls. Calls more than doubled in Massachusetts after the first year of implementing free phone calls.

[Speaker 0]: Where does the 405,000 come from? Because the cost is $101,000 That's the revenue they're receiving. For one quarter. One quarter. Okay. Got it. Well

[Speaker 5]: I'm not seeing this on here, and looked around your presentation just very briefly. Do you know who ends up paying most of the calls, both the phone and the video calls? Because I think there's a bigger picture there that it's oftentimes put on a lot of the things.

[Speaker 2]: Are you asking more of the friends and family pay for it, or the incarcerated individual pay for it? We wouldn't know that, because the funding goes into

[Speaker 3]: the incarcerated account. Yeah, why don't you talk about how funds get onto the account?

[Speaker 2]: There are several ways that the funding can place on the account. Friends and family have an opportunity to buy the time by going to a portal and placing money. There's a limit of, I believe it's $500 per day onto the account. I believe it's $500 a day onto the account. And so from the outside, they can place money onto their account. And that's both commissary and foe. So do you

[Speaker 0]: know how many folks who are incarcerated that do have family or outside folks putting money in the accounts?

[Speaker 3]: Yeah, we can get the telephone number.

[Speaker 0]: Is that half of them? Is that a quarter? Is that 90% of them? Most people that have

[Speaker 3]: new accounts, that's how they're getting the funds to keep it on. Either through that portal or there's a mail in lockbox option.

[Speaker 0]: So can you find out how many? And is this also for folks down in Mississippi as well? Do they also have access to the same tablets? I think Mississippi is still

[Speaker 3]: on the platform we had previously, and so

[Speaker 5]: it's a separate system.

[Speaker 3]: But we do work with them as folks transfer back and forth to make sure the funds go with that person or back.

[Speaker 9]: Are calls and messages monitored either passively or actively?

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, can you talk about that's done? Just context?

[Speaker 10]: Mike Taylor, I'm a facility operations manager. Yeah, everything's recorded. There can be an active report. If somebody's there, it's an intel officer actively watching and observing, they can pull them up at any time, but it's all stored so retroactively when there's a recording of So

[Speaker 9]: the actual phone call, all of those phone calls are stored somewhere? That's a lot of data, isn't it?

[Speaker 0]: But there's also a limitation for each person who's incarcerated in terms of who can call in for videos, correct? It's not a free for all, correct? Right. The incarcerated individual has to call out. An approved list. So there's an approved list for each person who's incarcerated in terms of who they can contact. I think that's important for people to know. It's not wide open where they can contact anybody or anyone to call or contact them.

[Speaker 5]: Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: There's an approved list. How many folks are usually on that approved list? 20 folks, 30 folks, five? Does it really range?

[Speaker 10]: Historically, the council listed 10. Reach out and the ability to make some sort of the calls, right, because you try to watch for a victim impact.

[Speaker 0]: Just so the committee knows it's not a free fall. Troy and then Brian?

[Speaker 4]: What kind of personal data is collected from all of the information gathered from IC solutions, whether that's how often somebody is making a call, how often they have money in their account, who's inserting that account, who owns that data, and how robust is the contract with regard to containing that data collection?

[Speaker 3]: Great question. I believe DRC would own it as our product through the contract itself, an intellectual data job, I think, in Attachment D. We work with ADS on this certainly, and they have pretty high standards for the passing of data back and forth. So we do have most ownership over that. The only kind of dig into that if there is a need, a security based need, if something is

[Speaker 5]: identified through the phone call, for example, for video visitation.

[Speaker 4]: Because I see solutions that we are especially concerned about and family who might be contributing to the plan and the privacy concerns that For

[Speaker 3]: their own benefit, mean? Not to my knowledge, but

[Speaker 5]: I can follow-up that to be sure.

[Speaker 2]: My

[Speaker 8]: question was another money question on slide three. So you have here the cost per DOC with the fees. And I'm wondering what's that missing in terms of hardware. Let's assume we get rid of this contract. DOC is now paying for everything. What are we missing? What would that have? What we doing on the tablets?

[Speaker 3]: That's something we haven't analyzed as part of this. We'd have to do some cost estimates for the hardware itself, the tablets, and then probably the infrastructure. As you know, the infrastructure itself was paid for by the vendor. They do have to leave it with us if we terminate the agreement or it changes to a different contractor, so it would still be in place.

[Speaker 5]: We would probably just have to leave

[Speaker 3]: it with the vendor, hard for them to purchase. We can certainly keep exploring that, but don't have it for today.

[Speaker 8]: Yeah. Like everybody else here, it's sort of an order of magnitude question. I assume there's some ongoing maintenance costs, but it seems like it would be, in terms of hardware, relatively small compared to the ongoing annual fees.

[Speaker 3]: I think so if we compare it to the state network that we use and what the annual cost of that is, it'd be pretty small. I think the largest would be the upfront cost, the tablets, replacement of the tablets, because

[Speaker 0]: that is something that happens frequently.

[Speaker 3]: And then of course the cost of the calls themselves, which is capital.

[Speaker 11]: So a million phone minutes, more than that, almost 2,000,000. Is there any data that shows that people who do get to speak to their families are happier inmates?

[Speaker 3]: I don't know if there's hard data, but I'll say anecdotally, it was very critical during COVID that we had these services. We did a number of free calls and telephone visits for folks each week that they could access, and it was very important.

[Speaker 9]: Excellent.

[Speaker 3]: So reasonable to say that it's true now. And then, I don't

[Speaker 5]: want to

[Speaker 11]: be like the gray, dark cloud, but is there a way that, you know, you're saying, and this could happen here, that Massachusetts, you know, doubled. Is there a way to maybe do a gentle cap with people? Like like, you know, we're gonna pay for this, but you only get, like, three hours a week. Right? I don't know what that works out to be. I'd have to do the math quick. But is there a way to do that? Like, listen, you gotta keep your phone call to an hour. It can't be three hours, or it can be two hours, but it can't be three hours. Is there a way to do that with people in the incarcerated population?

[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I do think there would be a way to do that.

[Speaker 5]: I think we'd

[Speaker 3]: have to discuss what that looks like. Just want to make sure folks have people ask access to phones. We would certainly probably keep attorney phone calls free, then we'd have to figure out what that cost would be also. But I think some contemplation of a cap would have

[Speaker 5]: to be in place just to control costs. Okay,

[Speaker 6]: sounds good. Thanks. What percent of the population utilize this service?

[Speaker 3]: I would say all or most, or

[Speaker 0]: anyone that has access to Troy and then Will?

[Speaker 4]: Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just combing through the contract. I just wanted to clarify that there is data storage off-site. Off-site storage, this is 6.1.47 of the Off-site storage of all data will be and I don't know what all data means will be a minimum of three locations within the Continental US. So data storage centers in Atlanta, San Antonio, and St. Louis, data will be stored for three years unless given to the state of the termination of a cancellation. So there is data storage happening. I don't know all of that data yet, but thank you.

[Speaker 5]: Hold on real quick. I'll get my question now.

[Speaker 0]: Anything else on this? So that ends up the telecommunication. Are there any further questions before we get to promissory?

[Speaker 5]: Actually, I remembered now, I'm sorry, about that article about the three thirty people that didn't have access to their phones over the summer and fall. Could you comment on that?

[Speaker 3]: Absolutely. We had a pretty difficult transition period between the two contractors, and unfortunately, there was a gap, and folks lost access to their funds for a certain period of time. We did work diligently with the vendors, but sharing data between vendors is very difficult. But we eventually got there, and it's there for sure, we own it.

[Speaker 5]: Not to be crude, but six months.

[Speaker 3]: It was a very long time.

[Speaker 0]: So if they're using, like in your communication, you've got phone and voice mail. That is all done through the tablets?

[Speaker 5]: Yes.

[Speaker 0]: And then the attorney client lines are free. Is that line through the tablets as well? Or is that a landline? That's a landline. So if there's a landline coming in there, Alice, it is or it should be,

[Speaker 7]: which is it is it actually outlined or not.

[Speaker 3]: For the attorney line?

[Speaker 5]: Yes. Yes. It is a hard

[Speaker 0]: On the wall, in the living unit?

[Speaker 5]: Yes. So

[Speaker 0]: the attorney can call their client who's in that living unit through that landline and the client could call their attorney as well through that or is it just one way in? Just the attorney calls in. So could an attorney for an ICE detainee call in on that landline? Because it's an attorney client?

[Speaker 10]: They've been established PIN number through us. Yes. They're

[Speaker 0]: So they would need the lawyer for the ICE detaining would need to have an established PIN number. Is that hard to get?

[Speaker 10]: No, any attorney just reaches out to us, have one operations manager in charge

[Speaker 4]: of it.

[Speaker 10]: They basically just prove their bar number and essentially who they work for, basically verify the credentials, then we establish a PIN number so when they call the facility, it's a natural attorney to be caught the court body.

[Speaker 0]: Are any of the attorneys for ICE detainees using that line? Do you know?

[Speaker 3]: I think if they've already established a connection with an individual, they can access that line. The challenge is that sometimes they don't know the person they're looking for yet.

[Speaker 0]: So that's why it's not used consistently for all the integration team. Again, I think it's not an answer. Is it happening or not? It's a better question for the integration. To see from them if they have established a pin number. To see whether they're used to that call line. Would be available to them if they had a pin number to get But we can't speak

[Speaker 3]: to the volume because we're not a part of those attorney client relationships.

[Speaker 0]: Right. Kevin, and then Troy.

[Speaker 6]: I'm still

[Speaker 8]: on the same line, and I think I'm not understanding. So for an attorney to use these phones, they call in,

[Speaker 12]: the person can't call out. They need

[Speaker 8]: to have a PIN number. They need to know who they're trying to reach. Do they already have to have a preexisting relationship with that person? Or can they say, I know that you're holding this ICE detainee. I would like to speak with him because I would like to offer them legal services? Or do they already need that established relationship?

[Speaker 3]: My understanding is they have to already have that established relationship, but we can verify that for you.

[Speaker 0]: But you also need to know what where their house

[Speaker 5]: with the

[Speaker 0]: living unit. Right? Because the because it goes to that living unit.

[Speaker 10]: As long as they know

[Speaker 5]: what facility they're in, they they call essentially our main control operator,

[Speaker 10]: and they'll pass through wherever that person is.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. So if they know what facility the person's Yeah.

[Speaker 10]: Generally, the attorneys get their locator online, find where they are, then call us.

[Speaker 8]: So they do not then meet that relationship beforehand? They would just need to

[Speaker 5]: know that the person was detained there and say, I would

[Speaker 8]: like to offer my services. I've got my PIN number? I'll see if that's the

[Speaker 10]: Yeah. Essentially how it works. They call either the attorney within the firm, speak with their client.

[Speaker 4]: Okay. Just a quick comment for the record. Know we're about to transition into Commissary Network, so I just wanted to identify for the record that keep Commissary Network and ISEE Solutions are both sister companies within the same parent organization. Okay,

[Speaker 3]: I got it.

[Speaker 7]: Thank you for that.

[Speaker 9]: And you may have covered this in the beginning. I'm just wondering, if you're a detainee or sentenced or whatever, how long does it just take to get set up on all this, right? Like a week, three weeks? Is there a period of time where you're sort of incommunicado with people or you can't fill up your account?

[Speaker 3]: Data share, which would flow from the offender management system flows into this necessary and telecommunication platform, I think twice a day. So that can happen pretty immediately as soon as someone is logged into the system. From there, depends on when someone puts funds on their account.

[Speaker 5]: Okay, got you.

[Speaker 6]: Is there a standard or a requirement for the case of an ICE individual that the attorney would be in contact with them offering their services? Or is maybe that a dumb question?

[Speaker 3]: Not a dumb question. We're still kind of managing that relationship and how we bring those folks in to make sure they do have access to attorneys. It's not as easy as state detainees because sometimes mostly those folks go in already having some representation. So, is

[Speaker 5]: a little trickier.

[Speaker 6]: So, can't say that within twenty four hours of coming into the facility, they have an attorney offering services that

[Speaker 3]: I can't guarantee that. It's something we're still working out. Okay. But we do frequently allow those attorneys to come in. I don't think it's on a daily flow, but we're still working on giving that consistent

[Speaker 8]: Thank you.

[Speaker 3]: We do have her send the Vermont Asylum Assistance Project a list of all the immigration detainees every morning for Vermont facilities and the facility that they're housed at. Very good. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]: Anything else on the telephone before we move to commissary? Okay. Commissary. Commissary contract is key commissary network and the contract dates are 02/01/2025 through 01/31/2033. The services are commissary banking and deposits and the products are hygiene products, batteries, coffee, snack food, the three meals that are provided by DOCHD DOCHD are at no cost. Recent changes to commissary, addition of vending machines with more nutritious options and over the counter products like Tylenol, Advil, etcetera. Partnership with Chicago Beyond to provide more culturally expansive products, work with Chicago Beyond and Women on the Rise to review and add commissary and standard issue hygiene items to ensure correct products for people of color.

[Speaker 9]: Yeah. Why is that such a long contract? And can either party end that? There's been a notice.

[Speaker 3]: Yeah. There is a termination clause for so for either party. I think it's ninety days. I'd have to verify that. It's long

[Speaker 5]: 30 for telecom. Thirty. For

[Speaker 3]: telecom. It's long because of how important it is, I think, for a system to have the services and

[Speaker 5]: the amount

[Speaker 3]: of work it takes to transition and various issues there. And so that's why we ask for the term labor to be able to have a longer runway. Thanks.

[Speaker 1]: Commissary revenue, recreation fund. Commissary revenue goes towards the recreation fund. FY '25 commissary revenue was $713,997. FY '26 commissary revenue $344,201. The Rec Fund the Recreation Fund largely supports a salary for each facility's Recreation Coordinator. Each facility has a Rec Fund Committee that develops an annual budget and submits to the Superintendent for review. Budgets typically include the funds for gym equipment, newspaper subscriptions, repairs, special events, etcetera.

[Speaker 0]: So, again, where does the person who's incarcerated get money to purchase those items from the commissary.

[Speaker 3]: That's also from the present family providing those funds outside.

[Speaker 0]: So if a person doesn't have friends or family providing, they may not have an account, then they would not have access to some of these products.

[Speaker 10]: Plus they have facility employment.

[Speaker 5]: They do a perfect, absolutely job, making income, and

[Speaker 10]: then use that as well as the purchase price.

[Speaker 0]: $0.55 an hour.

[Speaker 10]: Well, it's paid a daily.

[Speaker 0]: So that gets into the other issue. Are there folks who are incarcerated that are going without access to some of these products, like hygiene products or batteries or hot fees?

[Speaker 3]: Supply some basic hygiene items. But to get the additional, they would need some kind of funding to do that. There's also incentive programs that exist to be able to give folks extra access. But if someone does not

[Speaker 5]: have any funds, then you could reasonably say they don't have access to the extra.

[Speaker 0]: So what are some of those extra? Like another toothbrush or toothpaste? Yeah, or maybe more name brand product versus a generic brand. Whatever your name is, Brian.

[Speaker 12]: I'll answer it anyway.

[Speaker 8]: Once again, it's the same line of questioning where if folks don't have the money to buy these things from commissary, you see Tylenol and Advil. Could they get analgesics from the infirmary? And they can't buy snacks, they don't have money for the commissary. Can they get a dinner or something? These things are obtainable in different ways?

[Speaker 3]: Yes, they could get those, the Tylenol and such, from the health services providers, so it's not that they won't have access at all.

[Speaker 0]: Can you talk about how they might get additional food items?

[Speaker 10]: Yeah, mean as far as additional food, unless they're purchasing it, they wouldn't get any aside from your three square meals a day to meet the Lord's needs that's established by Trinity.

[Speaker 0]: Could you speak up?

[Speaker 6]: Yeah, can hear you. Sorry.

[Speaker 0]: Can you speak up because we're down here?

[Speaker 10]: Yeah, was just saying that they would get their three meals a day. They would not get anything outside of that if they didn't purchase it, for example. As far as you talked about a Tylenol example, they are prescribed if they're PRN, they have the ability to go in bed line when they need it.

[Speaker 8]: So what's your question? Basically just trying to see it like whether it's convenient or not, whether it takes time or not, whether it's exactly what you want or not, is there a different avenue to getting these things? And it sounds like it's not perfect, but yes there is.

[Speaker 0]: Can you talk about the extension?

[Speaker 10]: So there are incentive programs based around recreation, so they do tournaments and stuff like that where they participate and then they'll get prizes at the end of the month. If they're indigent, like people don't go without toothpaste, they don't go without toothbrushes, but they're not going to get Colgate, for example, unless they purchase it. So they don't go without as far in regards to that. Are they going to have all the extra niceties of somebody that, let's say, has employment or family that's providing them? No.

[Speaker 6]: And the word revenue to me is equivalent to profit. It may be wrong.

[Speaker 3]: Sure, well, we use that as a technical term, so if there's funds coming into the state, we consider it revenue.

[Speaker 0]: Correct,

[Speaker 6]: So it must be a percentage of the profit that the commissary is making. Can you

[Speaker 0]: tell us what that percentage is? 32%.

[Speaker 3]: How much? 32%. 33%?

[Speaker 12]: That's a percentage of the gross sale amount, isn't it? Correct. Not the profit. Well, that's why I'm trying

[Speaker 0]: to get a handle on it. As part

[Speaker 3]: of the commissary sale, so you could consider a profit from that.

[Speaker 6]: So it's 32% of the

[Speaker 3]: Of the total sales.

[Speaker 6]: Total sales, which includes costs, so it's not the profit, correct.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Anything else on the commissary? Troy?

[Speaker 4]: Just is there any speculation on why the drop from '25 to '26?

[Speaker 3]: I think that's fiscal year to date for

[Speaker 4]: Oh, to date, sure.

[Speaker 3]: So it's quarter. Pretty close to '20 So '5 it's

[Speaker 0]: pretty it tracks I pretty

[Speaker 4]: don't know why.

[Speaker 0]: Half into '26.

[Speaker 4]: I guess sure.

[Speaker 8]: Why don't wrap it up? So it says the rec fund largely supports the salary for each facility's rec coordinator.

[Speaker 0]: Is there a rec coordinator?

[Speaker 8]: Well, how many FTEs or how many people or how many whatever the good question is.

[Speaker 3]: It's one per facility, so six. And

[Speaker 0]: is that a DOC employee? Yes. So is it a full time or is it a person that's also doing case management or doing A full time. Recommended. Per facility? Does it take full time?

[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I mean, they're developing programs and trying to make sure folks are engaged. They're keeping track of inventory for supplies and equipment, managing compensated flow, things of that nature. Mary?

[Speaker 7]: So it says Recreation Fund largely supports. Is there another source of funding that pays for it as well for the position?

[Speaker 3]: No. So far, it's fully funded, the positions, and there hasn't been an issue with that in addition to

[Speaker 8]: I apologize. I think, Mary, it largely is that that's mostly what this revenue goes for is to support those six And then other things such as that. Think you're reading largely differently. If I misunderstood, I'm sorry. And

[Speaker 7]: when you're saying that you do not have a recreation coordinator who didn't have this funding coming from the commissary revenues?

[Speaker 3]: I don't think it would be in our best interest to eliminate that position if we practice in house.

[Speaker 7]: No, my question was, would you have one or not? And where would you find the to put that in place?

[Speaker 3]: We would still look to have it, and we would probably put forth the general fund request to present the funding That's

[Speaker 7]: what I need to take.

[Speaker 0]: Right. Then Conor?

[Speaker 8]: I think

[Speaker 4]: I recall I have two questions. I think I recall asking this, and I can try and find it in my notes. You had rec fund coordinators prior to this contract, didn't you? Correct. Okay. So you were paying them without revenue from the contract, yeah?

[Speaker 3]: In my time, we've always funded it through the red fund. There could be a point in history where

[Speaker 0]: it was a general fund position, but not aware of

[Speaker 5]: what that would changed. Have

[Speaker 4]: And then what percentage of the rec fund is going to salaries versus going into recreation?

[Speaker 3]: I don't have the percentage, but

[Speaker 0]: it's most of the rec fund revenue goes towards those six positions. Those towards what? Those six positions.

[Speaker 4]: I appreciate

[Speaker 12]: you sending us the info along. Kevin and I and Kelly did forward information, which is broken down by facility, so it varies a little bit by facility. For example, in FY25, we have twenty four and twenty five,

[Speaker 8]: had

[Speaker 12]: a Chittenden, I just pulled one. You had salaries and fringes of $93.04 72, with a total spend of, second here, 106,272.

[Speaker 8]: 90%. Basically $12,000 goes to something else.

[Speaker 12]: So, and it varies a little bit, but it's, you know, that example, 87% change of the budget, what's for salaries and benefits associated with salaries.

[Speaker 4]: Thank you, John.

[Speaker 0]: Connor? That'd be helpful.

[Speaker 12]: Yeah. Looks like there might be some utilities

[Speaker 8]: in there too, maybe. You mean?

[Speaker 12]: Bear bear with me. And I can get this over to Tate if people wanna it. Or if you want to shoot it over, Kevin, I know you have it too.

[Speaker 0]: I can send it over.

[Speaker 12]: If you want to. Or Haley, if you want to send that over to Tate, so everybody can send it over.

[Speaker 6]: It was a lot of data hard to see on my phone.

[Speaker 12]: I would not try to read this on my phone. Nope, nope. It's just straight up salary and cost associated with salaries.

[Speaker 9]: Yeah, so it's like everywhere there's a system of haves and have nots. You you can have people from the outside top up. And I'm wondering to what degree that lends itself to predatory behavior and bullying in prison. Have you seen examples where it's like either it could be in exchange for drugs or, you know, you can get beaten up unless I see like, you know, $50 in my account next week, right? Have you seen that? Is it something you worry about?

[Speaker 10]: Historically, it's a prison that occurs. Mean, that's why we have, you know, intel and security staff at modern those things. We could watch and see if there's movement between funds, between accounts and what families are paying who.

[Speaker 0]: I think you need to speak up because there's folks in

[Speaker 10]: Yeah, I was saying historically it's a prison, these things do occur. It's things that they're in jail for. So we do our best to use intel teams, security, that's why you listen to phone calls, interact with the inmates to understand what's happening and occurring, and we hope you can help or confirm to law enforcement when we find some of these things.

[Speaker 9]: And do you find it often enough?

[Speaker 10]: I'd say it's probably sporadic depending on what your population makeup is at the

[Speaker 5]: time. Thanks.

[Speaker 13]: Well, mean, just to follow-up on Conor's point that I would definitely agree with the haves and have nots. That's a bigger issue to me because the other issue is gonna exist, getting beat up for something or assaulted for something is gonna exist even if you add stuff because I still might want your things. But the haves and the have nots are bigger, just my role, but it's a bigger thing because somebody's having access because they're not lucky enough to have a That's friend or family to put money in a, to me, is a big variation, especially for morale and that kind of stuff. But the other issues won't necessarily go away.

[Speaker 0]: Kevin and then Joe? I gotta think of it.

[Speaker 5]: You gotta

[Speaker 0]: wear a sign.

[Speaker 8]: Will for you.

[Speaker 0]: It's not insane.

[Speaker 8]: Bad about my name, Zach. It's true. So this is going back to the previous question about the rec coordinators and trying to understand what all they can do. So if they're not busy doing rec stuff, is there other stuff in their job description that they are green lighted to do that they might be doing? What are they doing?

[Speaker 3]: Sure. We also have volunteer services coordinators that are a general funded position and not paid for by a rec fund. And so those two are kind of a team that works together to try to bring volunteer programs into the facility.

[Speaker 5]: So that's another thing that we could do.

[Speaker 8]: And that doesn't sound ridiculous, but they're not going to fill in as the CO. They're not going to do bleeding. I don't know.

[Speaker 3]: They could fill in in a security role if they have that training within a certain period of time and they're up to date on their core competency. It has happened, I think particularly in COVID, and we couldn't bring volunteers in and there was more limited activities. They did sometimes fill in and we do process a transaction. So those hours are not

[Speaker 5]: attached to the rec pump.

[Speaker 8]: It's probably obvious. I'm just trying to figure out are these six people sort of utility infielders or you're like, oh gosh, we're short staffed here.

[Speaker 3]: It could happen. I'm not saying it doesn't. I think it does happen.

[Speaker 2]: And when it does happen, we monitor it very closely to ensure that we're moving any wages that are part of anything security gets moved over to the facility side.

[Speaker 5]: Joe? Right.

[Speaker 12]: It's another question that had come up last year, and I think it was answered and I wouldn't speak to it. Governance of the funds directed for REC after salaries, So there's I don't know if you want to expound on how that functions.

[Speaker 3]: Sure. Each facility should have a rec committee that drives what those funds are spent on. I'll pass it to Mike to talk more detail about how that works.

[Speaker 10]: I worked at two facilities in the makeup of that was each unit, had essentially a representative that sat on that committee that was run by the rec coordinator. They'd ever really schedule meetings and they'd

[Speaker 8]: just talk about some of

[Speaker 10]: that sponsored bills. Do they need new basketballs? Do they want to do for incentives? They want to do for tournaments? Then they'd essentially present that to a superintendent or assistant, if any of them overseeing it, make sure that the county meets security needs or whatever other needs as responsible spending. Generally, didn't choose often to say that we're not going to do this or do that, only if there were security type items that was not best for it. For example, they want to do a project, they want a bunch of glue shipped in, we're not doing that, know, but by and large they want to do everything that's, you know, gave them governance over it and I think the ability to be involved in something kind of they felt control over.

[Speaker 3]: We're currently updating that policy, so the language that I sent to you is from an updated policy,

[Speaker 5]: which now Tate has, so you can disperse that to the committee.

[Speaker 8]: Thank you. And the representative then is an inmate who's somehow chosen or volunteers or what? Yeah, each, you know,

[Speaker 10]: essentially has a rec coordinator as inmate. Each facility will kind of decide differently how they go about doing it. Generally it ties into like they'll be the rec coordinator, which is the positioning in that unit so that they have available games within that unit, they maintain the stock, they'll make sure that they don't get stolen out, they log it out to the units, whether it's checkers, chess, Yahtzee, different games like that, cards.

[Speaker 8]: And so that then is their job on the same pay scale as whatever else, yeah.

[Speaker 13]: Just to clarify for Haley. So you said you gave updated language. Like that's what's in place now or what's going to be updated in the near future?

[Speaker 3]: I don't know exactly if the policy is going into effect, but I

[Speaker 13]: think it's going to, not his.

[Speaker 3]: Yeah, happy to follow-up.

[Speaker 8]: That's all I need. Anything

[Speaker 0]: else on commissary? Okay, let's continue to wage A, facility work programs.

[Speaker 1]: Fiscal implications of paying state abroad minimum wage to facility workers. 12 to 16,000,000 in pure wages. 12,000,000 for a sixty hour work week. 16,000,000 for an eighty hour work week. Pay is currently per day. Most individuals do not have sixty to eighty hour workweeks. Other considerations would be overtime, benefits, employers' taxes, wage garnish garnishments such as child support, providing W-2s, workers' comp, additional staff payroll. Security concerns. DOC does not have enough employment opportunities for the 1,600 individuals in custody. Creating as many jobs would require major physical and IT infrastructural upgrades to programming space, Wi Fi, etc. Disparate employment opportunities and wages can result in security concerns such as coercion and threats from other incarcerated individuals.

[Speaker 2]: I would just like to add one other correction where it says $12,000,000 per sixty hour work week, that should be per pay period. And the same for the eighty hour, that is per pay period. So it's a two week period.

[Speaker 0]: Can I ask a quick question? Sure. Go ahead, Troy.

[Speaker 4]: I mean, there's disparate employment opportunities right now. You're not employing all incarcerated individuals now. So the disparate employment opportunities was a new problem caused by Does that feel accurate?

[Speaker 2]: I'm sorry, did you restate that?

[Speaker 4]: You're going to have disparate employment opportunities regardless of how much you pay them. Does that feel accurate?

[Speaker 3]: That's accurate, but I would say that it would be exacerbated if individuals are making minimum wage as opposed to what they're making right now.

[Speaker 4]: I don't know how you decide who gets employment now and who doesn't, But you could divide the employment available among all of those who are qualified to work. Does that feel accurate?

[Speaker 5]: It could. Yeah.

[Speaker 4]: Okay. So somebody might have a ten hour work week instead of a fifteen hour work week because it gets more people to

[Speaker 3]: work. Sure.

[Speaker 8]: And I guess I'm tagging on the trail, but I like to keep doing. But if somebody wants work now and they're qualified, can they have it? Is there

[Speaker 5]: a shortage of work for those who seek it right now? I think my case

[Speaker 10]: is And some of the job is and the timing. We have an application process they put in for it. Certain places have a lot of turnover, like the kitchen, for example. Certain jobs are highly sought after, so if somebody gets in and they hold that position for a while,

[Speaker 8]: they'll No. Some go bigger, some positions.

[Speaker 10]: I would say vacant. They just there's a lot of turnover on them. So they'll be in the work for two weeks. They don't want to work. The next person will step in to their circles. They'll get filled. So they

[Speaker 13]: might be

[Speaker 10]: in for two years. So

[Speaker 0]: the work that is available, maybe you could explain what some of those work jobs are.

[Speaker 10]: Yeah, the gamut runs from cleaning. We have hallway cleaners, unit cleaners. We have laundry. We have people that will be on work crew essentially that might be shoveling, mowing, splitting wood depending on the facilities because they all have different needs. There's open years coaches, two of the facilities burn wood, so the boiler tenders. If people out of ADA needs for wheelchair, we've hired pushers and essentially they're the person that works for them to get around the facility throughout the day. The kitchen awfully obviously has bakers, cleaners, warehousemen, linespersons, cleaners.

[Speaker 0]: There's What about folks who are working in the plate shop?

[Speaker 10]: That's in Northwest. I don't I've never worked there, so I don't have much knowledge on that. But that's part of the BCI program.

[Speaker 2]: That is a separate program from facility jobs. It is funded out of a different bucket. It's not funded from a facility budget. That is funded under a separate appropriation.

[Speaker 0]: And do those folks who participate in that get paid, or does that go towards their participation go towards something else?

[Speaker 2]: They earn a wage, and in that specific instance at VCI, those individuals who are employed there have the opportunity to place some of their earnings or all of their earnings into a savings account, as it were. We set it aside for them. And when they depart VCI employment, if it's on good terms, they're eligible to have a match by VCI of up to $4,000 if it's dollar for dollar that they've saved, but up to a max of 4,000. So it's a very different scenario, and they are paid by the hour, not by the day. And how much do they get by the hour? Depends on the job and the length of time and tenure that they've been in there, and range can be anywhere from $0.25 to $1.25 an hour. The average right now, I believe, is 60% an hour because you have some at the top and on the bottom. And it depends on how long they've been there and how many hours they've been there before they can move to the next step.

[Speaker 0]: Troy, I'm going name James.

[Speaker 4]: Just a comment and then a question. Just so the committee knows, H-two 94 does have a component in it where we started paying incarcerated labor, a higher wage, that it's broken into three different sorts of possible funds, including savings account that would be available upon release for first month's rent, whatever. So I just want to mention that that's in there in February. The question is, for the facilities jobs, if we didn't hire incarcerated labor to do that work, you would have to pay a laborer, a stave worker. Is that accurate? Kitchen cleaning.

[Speaker 10]: It's fair to say because the work needs to get done.

[Speaker 4]: Right. And how much do we pay? Does anybody know? VSEA, dude? Do we know how much

[Speaker 8]: the current Living wages

[Speaker 12]: for its long time ago.

[Speaker 5]: What's the what's the it's

[Speaker 4]: it's 20 an hour, isn't it? Well, as BGS workers

[Speaker 3]: are married.

[Speaker 9]: There's a it's it's defined in statute.

[Speaker 4]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: No. Hang on. It would be a BGS worker doing the work.

[Speaker 13]: Potentially, they can fit the component of what they do.

[Speaker 10]: Just like most state buildings, that is done by a state BGS worker who's very low

[Speaker 12]: pay pay.

[Speaker 4]: And that minimum wage is set by a living wage standard in statute. Accurate?

[Speaker 9]: Yeah, and even if it's a BGS worker, they would code their time, right? And the department would have to pay BGS then, right? Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: So if they're going in there to clean the facility, what about working in the kitchen and cooking the meals? That would not be BGS, folks.

[Speaker 3]: No, that would not be BGS. I imagine you'd either have to come up with a new job classification for any facility, cooks or chefs

[Speaker 4]: My point is this. Fair pay for work is articulated right here, a sixty hour work week. If we weren't extracting cheap labor from incarcerated Vermonters, we're saving a lot of money. And I have a big problem with that. And this ties to the thirteenth Amendment and to Prop two. I can't remember what Prop it is. When we removed the indentured servitude and slavery from Vermont's constitution. Yet, we're still paying incarcerated labor $0.25 an hour, average of $0.65 an hour, for work that would otherwise cost us a livable wage if we hired state workers for that. I just want to put that out there. That's fundamentally what my issue is with how we pay incarcerated labor and how we extract labor from them. And then there's this argument. I'm sorry, I'm on my soapbox. There's this argument that, well, at least they're given something to do, and they choose to do that. My guess is if you offer them 65¢ an hour or $20 an hour, they're gonna also choose $20 an hour, which is the the fair wage, or I'm I'm guesstimating here. So that's why I brought this legislation, this bill to to be considered. I think we're exploiting labor, bottom line, in a really, really, really significant way, and we're doing it on people that we have complete control over. Thank you.

[Speaker 8]: Thanks for taking my time.

[Speaker 6]: With that,

[Speaker 4]: I've got a new Zoom meeting.

[Speaker 5]: Some of us have to. So, Wes, it's been

[Speaker 10]: Kevin. We're just

[Speaker 5]: gonna have to schedule While we're on the fair wage thing, I just get you

[Speaker 8]: know, I guess this is where I'm

[Speaker 5]: having difficulty comprehending some things. Maybe the business office knows, maybe

[Speaker 4]: you all know, but I

[Speaker 5]: want to clarify. If you were to replace the current situation within the facilities with someone that works for BGS, do we currently for a BGS employee, not for we're just we'll we'll just talk about that one piece. Do we pay for those individuals' rents on top of their $16 an hour base salary? No. No? Okay. That's what I figured. Do we pay for their gas and their mileage when they go to work?

[Speaker 12]: No. Nope. I believe

[Speaker 3]: it would be in line with other savings. Do we

[Speaker 5]: pay for their food and meals? Do we pay for their healthcare on top of what we provide through their insurance package in the state? Okay, I'll leave it there. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Kevin and then Joe, and I'm looking at the kinds

[Speaker 12]: of Yeah, going to ahead. I'm good. You're good?

[Speaker 6]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: We've about one more minute.

[Speaker 8]: Cool, and I can ask a math question.

[Speaker 5]: Okay. Nine,

[Speaker 10]: ahead, Peter.

[Speaker 5]: Pulling

[Speaker 8]: back from the ethical question, I'm talking about

[Speaker 6]: a math question, which I'm

[Speaker 8]: trying to figure out 12 to 16 in pure wages. You talked about that being a biweekly or a bimonthly paycheck. I don't know why sixty or eighty hours were chosen instead of forty. I'm trying to figure out, obviously, what would it annually cost, whether it's for the state or for a facility, suppose we did those.

[Speaker 2]: That's where the $1,216,000,000 came from is basically I had to predicate, are they working an eight hour day? Are they working something less than an eight hour day? So I said, okay, if they're working an eight hour day, two week period, that's eighty hours. I know what they make. This is what they had, this is how many employees were paid, or I should say, individuals working within the facility that are incarcerated. This is how much they got paid on that particular. I did a whole study from 2017 all the way through 2025. I did the first six months, every single pay period for every single facility, and just extrapolated that out. If it was 80 and if it was 60, this is what it

[Speaker 0]: would be. And I use

[Speaker 6]: The math answer could be something like 16 to 20 times what is being paid right now. Going from a quarter to $16 it's actually more than that.

[Speaker 8]: No, that's understood. I'm trying to reach an annual number, whatever it means.

[Speaker 0]: That's right.

[Speaker 8]: Based on, yeah.

[Speaker 2]: That's where I arrived at those numbers. This was basically doing that mathematics based off of the Vermont current as of January wage.

[Speaker 13]: And thirty and forty is generally speaking the difference between part time

[Speaker 8]: and full time. You're in business.

[Speaker 13]: I mean, that's where those numbers usually come from, 32 versus 40.

[Speaker 2]: I had to try to equate it because I was throwing some on correctional industry that is paid by the hour in there, so I kind of had

[Speaker 0]: to do Thank something to get

[Speaker 13]: you. I'm clear.

[Speaker 0]: So it's noontime, and I know some folks have some commitments at noon, and they wanna get lunch before there's a commitment. We are going to have to reschedule. Yeah, we're gonna have to reschedule the prison policy initiative. I hate to do it, but we had a lot of questions. So Sarah, at least you some of the questions that the committee

[Speaker 3]: Yeah, has know have a lot more information.

[Speaker 0]: And that may help you in terms of figuring out when you testify before us, I hope. We just ran out of time. That's fine. So if you could work with Tate to figure out when to do your scheduling, and it would be good also to have DOC in the room as well to hear, see what we can do next week on this. We need to finish, close this up, lunchtime. Some of us have some commitments, including me. So we are back here at 01:00, and we're gonna be doing our clean water and drinking water and municipal pollution and we're going to have a good time.