Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Welcome, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is Wednesday, February 4. And with us today, we have historic preservation to go over just some updates in terms of few items in section four capital bills. So, Laura, you want to come on up? Section five? Section four. We have sections four. Four and five. Yeah.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Because you

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: have the building community grants. I forgot about.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Two of those. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Two of those. You've got historic preservation and get the barn. Just some updates. Good morning. For the record, my

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: name is Laura Trishman. I'm the state historic preservation officer. I am joined today by Caitlin Corkins, who will speak to you on section five, the Building Communities Grants Jamie Duncan, who is our Director of Preservation, who will talk about major maintenance at the State Historic Sites. And then I wanted to reintroduce you to Joshua Bell, who is our Director of State Historic Sites. You would have met him at Bennington. He started in June. So he's been with us one season and now making big differences for us. He's learning the ropes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And then you're in here. Good luck. This is another part of the work. And it's really different than everything.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: So I wanted to quickly give you an update of the Underwater Historic Preserves. This was established in 1982. With your assistance, we have gotten up to 11 preserves that are open annually. The funding goes to the mooring systems, the site inspections, creating, maintaining a database, outreach and community liaisons, because we know that even if they're not identified as a preserve and where people are invited to dive, because of the technology, the sonar and GPS and everything else that's out there in the space, people can find all of the other 300 wrecks that are in Wake. The most visited of these is the General Butler, the Phoenix, and now our two new sites, the Providence Island Canal Sloop and the Potash Point Canal Boat. We have approximately 700 dives a year outreach to 4,500 students and teachers with educational programming so that there is also a component where you don't actually have to dive. They've got three d models of the wrecks, and they're doing a great deal of research on history of each of them. And we know from the website views, we're reaching well over 12,000. Some of that's me because I'm like, is this your opinion? With flooding, we did have to keep a couple of them closed and rushed to close others, but this past year was really very good.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: And just a quick question. What about the drought? Did that have an impact on any sites? Like, do they become more and more accessible?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: They become more and more accessible. Yes. Yes. And we're actually finding more that can just walk out to. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Absolutely. If they're more accessible, it would be problematic in terms of more access to them?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: More access to them and safety. So we know that we had 120 registrants this year, this past year. The estimated number of actual divers was two fifty with 700 dives. The funding goes to cover the maintenance, the equipment replacement, repairs. As you can see from these images, the water rich signage is actually in really good condition. It was put in just a couple years ago, a refresher. But the horse ferry is heavily encrusted. You can't read the sign. And then you can see that there are moorings tied to each of these that we need to make sure those are intact and stable. And then periodically we have to replace the buoys. There's permitting systems that we have to go through to make sure that the coast guard and everyone is very well aware of these dives. Safety is foremost on our mind with these sites. Ultimately, we would like to open more of them, particularly since they are accessible, but we have to make sure that our partnership with Lake Champlain Maritime Museum allows us them to go and dive these other sites, make sure that they're safe, take away loose items that people can take home as souvenirs, which is illegal. So we have a really great relationship with the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum on underwater preserves.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I'm gonna ask a really stupid question. Who owns these? Is it the state that owns them? It's the maritime museum that is the actual entity that works with the public and all of that, correct? It's not the state. So

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: we grant subgrant money to the Maritime Museum, which has been officially established as the Maritime Archives for the state. The state owns anything that is on the bottom of the lake on our side.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Where does the New York side start? If I own the lake? Vermont owns more

[Unidentified Committee Member]: of the lake than New York does. Yes.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And there's also criteria and rules about what could be opened as an underwater preserve, what could be identified as historic. If it's something that went down ten, fifteen years ago, that is not historic. And actually, the Coast Guard and the communities are trying to get those up working with ANR because we don't want to be down in the low.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Only one would just sink one boat.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That was historic. Which one?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We wanted to We sink

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: were trying to add to the underwater preserve. We

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: tried to sink it. We didn't let check. It's not my idea. It was the Adirondack.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. Yes. It was one of the ferry boats. Has What did

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: it happen? New York got it. Right?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: New York took it. They were trying to sink it. And their governor said, Oh, I don't think so. And it was scrapped and taken apart.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We had a good time on that. That's when we were out

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: of the It's not a good time.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: What did you say? I don't

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: mean to disagree with you, but that was not a good time. A

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: lot of time coming in on that one.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Because of that, we did explore and open two more underwater preserves, one of which is being added to the National Register of Historic Places right now. We're working on the Providence Island Canal. So we got a US Maritime grant for that project.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That's a federal grant?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That is, yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Troy?

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: I want to stay on underwater burials just for a second. The governor recommended, and you've kind of already emailed back to us the 31,000 that they're flying back.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That's the unmarked burials. Yes. Yes.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Oh, that's different. That's not

[Unidentified Committee Member]: on water reserves. Are we getting there?

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Will we get there today?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We already did it, sort of.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm sorry.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I'm And I'm not dealing with one

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: There's no additional funding asked for the unmarked burials.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: But we took back 31 or the governor recommended that we take back 31,000 that was allocated.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. We're recommending that you take back the oldest money.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yep.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: 31,000, and that'll leave us with 50,000, just in case.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And the thinking is, you pull that back and then you put it to roadside markers.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: 20 of it, yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But we don't think of it that way. We think of the bottom line. We don't think that we're reallocating something over here to put over here. We just look at the bigger picture.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I'm constantly moving my ears, so I think of pockets.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But we don't quite think that.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Thank you. That was

[Unidentified Committee Member]: it.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Absolutely. Thank you. So I'm gonna turn major maintenance over to Jamie Duggan to talk you through the major accomplishments we have seen in the past few years. Good

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: morning. Good morning. Thank you, madam chair, committee members for your time. I'm happy today to come and talk to you a little bit about the historic site's maintenance fund. To catch you up sort of as an update, we had presented a spreadsheet last year that showed that we have, I think, over $6,000,000 projected over the next ten to fifteen years that we're aware of, and we find ourselves in a position now, however, where we have a lot of great things, but they're all happening at once. And so that's put a little pressure onto us. I guess I can advance. So to start, we had a number of unanticipated issues come up, mainly in our HVAC world and with some building infrastructure. We spent over $124,000 last year in replacing a number of furnaces and some other boilers. These are important parts of our operations. They are also at some staff housing and deal with a number of the leases that we have, in particular in Plymouth Cheese Factory. These definitely put a lot of pressure on earlier previous fiscal year budgets that we were able to cover, but put little bit of a dent into things. So we last saw each other this summer in Bennington, and to catch you up on that, you know, the study and planning efforts we've done over the last four years or so. What we're doing at the moment is we are continuing to essentially monitor the conditions and the monument. We're updating our monitoring equipment for better precision and accuracy, and we're switching to our vendor as the host as opposed to that being subcontracted out behind them. That ran afoul with some issues of the in BT buys, and we had a little bit of a lapse from the monitoring equipment that is currently in there to getting this new monitoring equipment in. So we might have a little loss in data just for sort of the next few weeks. I don't think the conditions are gonna change drastically yet.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So before we get into the monument, can we go back Yeah. Unanticipated expenses? So you've had a 124,000 plus unanticipated. Is that those dollars all coming out of the FY '26, or is there previous

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Those have already been with the exception of one of the hot waters, those those came out of fiscal year '24, I believe.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: May 3725 here. So Yeah. Did you Yes. Did you have enough money through your f y '25 to carry this unanticipated cost?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: We did. And anything left over that goes into 05/26? Yes. And the way we've been progressing is, you know, with any overages or any additional funds that we have in one of these budgets, we just keep going back to that original list and trying to work down the list of projects still to do.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So this was unanticipated, almost a 124,000. What does that do to the projects you're anticipating this fiscal year? Before we even get into FY '27, but for this year.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: It requires us to focus on those projects that are after they're moving and put other projects, keep them waiting, essentially.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And I think

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: This is kind of what will get explained out, I guess, in the next few slides.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. Let's do that first before we do Bennington. Bennington, it's its own. I just wanna get more of a handle Yeah. On a 124,000.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: The the short update for Bennington is we have two pools of money, and we still have a lot of resources available to push that forward.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I wanna get there. I just wanna do the the major maintenance piece first before we do Bennington.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: So so our primary project right now is the historical site renovations and gravel pathways improvements at the Coolidge Homestead. This is a project that originated in December 2020, and in the five or so years ensuing, we have put a project out to bid three separate times. Each of those times, we extended our window for contractors to familiarize themselves with the project. We finally, after this third attempt, did receive a proposal that we accepted. It was certainly higher than we had originally estimated back in 2021 even. We have are able to cover all the costs of that. We've dedicated 100% of our fiscal year twenty five budget to that project. That is money again that we had been holding on to waiting for this project to move forward. We're going to deal with the balance of that, taking 50% of this year's fiscal year budget and allocating it towards that. And that'll leave us a little bit of a shortfall, which you will see we're gonna pick up in fiscal year twenty seven's budget. Okay. You just spent.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yep. And

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: this is starting next week and will be finished July.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: This takes care of some foundation repairs that need to happen. We have water infiltrating into the cellar. There's going to be drainage and some weatherproofing of the foundation. And another really important component is we're going to be replacing the gravel pathways with a more of a hardened surface, a stone impregnated asphalt type material that will make our pathways much more durable and improve the accessibility on the site, especially getting from building to building. As you know, it's the entire village there that we are interpreting. Any questions on that project?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So in FY '25, you received for major maintenance half 1,000,000 in FY '25.

[Caitlin Corkins, Division for Historic Preservation]: And

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I'm just trying to figure this out. So in the previous slide, unanticipated costs for FY '25 was 124,000. Was there some money left over from FY '24 that you use to cover the 01/2024 as well as any money from f y twenty five?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. So we went back and we took the oldest money, got rid of that first, and then used the rest from '25.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: To make up for the the hundred and twenty four. So if you flip and saying to the Coolidge, you're using a 100% of the maintenance from f y twenty five, you've already tapped into that half million. So how do you come up with 585,000?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: I think it was fiscal year '24 when we got to 700,000. So I think

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: '24, you got 500,000.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: There was a bump there. It might have been in '25.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Did you get any cash? Because what I have here what I have here is for major maintenance, you had half 1,000,024 and half 700,025.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Yep. So that's the extra stuff

[Unidentified Committee Member]: we were using. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I was looking because you had a budget adjustment. Correct. 200,000. Fair.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Right. So that's where we were covering the 124 and anything else. And then a 100% of what remains is The $5.85. May. And we've committed all of that. And this is such a big project that BGS is acting as our project manager.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I have followed the lines.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: EGS are acting as project managers on Coolidge.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And another major part of this is changing the accessibility inside the homestead. Right now there's some ramps, but then they lead to stairs. So you can't get all the way through the house. So we're gonna be reinterpreting it better as preservationists, but also making it accessible all the way through.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Any any other questions on the Coolidge project? So

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: once you've dealt with all of this, you're gonna have a shortfall at the end of f y twenty seven of a 176,000?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We will have a shortfall starting in '27.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. Starting in '20

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: able to cover this with '27 funds.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: How much is the project just coming in at a million? Yes. So with the RFP in the bid? Yes.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It's a million.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: So you ended FY '24. You started FY '25 in the hole 124, you covered that. You're going to start FY '27 in the hole 176. Is this going to continue? So are we looking at another 50 ks in the hole for FY, let's say, nine? Yes,

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: but we're trying to make sure that the project in this case is going to be going on until the next fiscal year so we can carry things through and prioritize which get paid first.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: I get that. Governor's recommend was 500 in FY24. You got a $200,000 bump to 700. Governor's recommend now '26 '27 is $5.50. I'm just wondering if we're not even that's that's what I mean here.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: As you're starting out a 176,000 short at the '27 so July, you're gonna pull a 176,000 out of that $5.50 for f y twenty seven. Yes. Perfect. Which then leaves you 300,000.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We have a chart that'll show you how we're trying to disperse '27 money. But as Jamie was saying, we've been going after these projects for so long, some of them with grant funding from federal government, and they all came in at the same time, and we were able to contract, and we didn't want to miss that opportunity. Then when we started crunching the numbers, we're like, oh, our cockroaches are going to be very antique.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Are you anticipating any federal grant money coming in?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Not for this project, but we have a lot of federal grant money available to us at this point, thanks in large part to Laura's efforts.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And is it available? Haven't been frozen or anything. They're they're available.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: So if we're ready, can move on to the moral project because that is a project that does have federal funding. We have a Save America's Treasure Grant, $226,000 that we're matching with monies out of fiscal year twenty six. We have some FEMA money involved here, public assistance money from damages of a flood of '23 that are targeted for those repairs. And we are going to be covering with a portion of fiscal year twenty seven here, enough of the scope of work to get the grant funded portion completed and closed out. We have a September deadline for that with the Park Service. And then there, as Laura was saying, with this project as well, we have a number of other items that will carry on afterwards. We're gonna have to figure out how to fund those next biennium, I believe. Because those are significant costs. There are things like putting gutters on the moral homestead, which are restoring them back. They're no longer there. There's a lot of heat trace that's being used to keep things from freezing up. There's some interior masonry and structural shoring that has to happen as part of the foundation repairs and drainage installation. So we'll put the infrastructure, for example, in the ground. Will there's a the gutters will eventually lead to drain pipes in the ground that go to dry wells and select the roof runoff. For now, we'll put those pipes into the ground, but we'll cap them. And then when we get the additional monies in the future and are able to put those gutters on, we'll be able to tie into that system. It'll be waiting for us to tap into that at that point. Is also

[Unidentified Committee Member]: yeah. Jamie, is that

[Unidentified Committee Member]: federal money in the bank, or is it expected?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: It's in the bank.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: That's good. This is a

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: lot of preliminary work, design documents and preliminary work.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We've done all that already?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: We are in negotiations with our preferred vendor, the contractor. I'm actually waiting for their best and final offer today, hopefully. And we have been working towards a lot of doing a lot of preplanning activities. We have done some exploratory excavation, some archaeology, and some other testing to understand exactly where the bedrock is below ground so that we can start quantifying the amounts of stone we would need in certain areas and things like that. Yes. Since you used the word preferred vendor, does that imply you've got multiple votes? We received we received two bids on this project, and one we were not able to accept. The bid that we did receive, we're looking forward to working with this contractor. We've I've worked with them on the past here here, actually, even on the state house on a few projects, and we we're looking forward to starting that project with them. Why weren't you able to accept the other bid? It wasn't submitted with the qualifications that we need to see to be able to award a project of this type to a contractor. They just suits weren't simply qualified.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And this was put out to bid three two, three times?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: This was also put out to bid three times. This last time, we extended our bid to have three prebid meetings just to garner interest while it was out on the street. And so we're in a good place here, though, and ready to move forward. Right now, are, as I said, as soon as we can get our final proposal and get that into contract form, we'll send it off to the National Park Service for their approval, which is part of our grant requirement. The project is anticipating to start this spring and will the drainage components, the excavation and site work will be completed by September. So it's not yet happened, but it is right on the precipice of of being available to move that forward. Any other questions here?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So can you weigh in? This is the second project that you've put out an RFP three times over the years. What are you seeing with the contractors that you're not getting bids back?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: At first, it was that there was more attractive work elsewhere, certainly coming out of COVID and dealing with a lot of the sort of boom that had happened at that point. Our sites are more remote. They take a little bit to get to sometimes, so travel is a consideration that I know a lot of contractors worry about. And our projects can be fussy and move at their sort of their own pace, and that sometimes comes in conflicts with contractors' interest in moving along quickly and keeping the dollars flowing in. And of course, there's, as I just mentioned, qualifications. We have to have the right people with the right skills working on our building, or else things go wrong.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Any other questions?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And I would add, we've been chasing a lot of work that was done incorrectly or incomplete?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: No, in this house particularly. Fixing things, yes. In particular. Really? Yep. Painting in particular.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Because they didn't understand or because they weren't capable when we're fixing things. We're fixing them.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Up until Jamie took this position six years ago, BGS was in charge of all of our contracting and funding. So we would call them. I have a roof leak. They would get anyone who bid on it contracted and fixing it. And in some cases, they were not as qualified as they should have been. Like at the Museum and Education Center at Coolidge, the HVAC was all installed upside down. But he was the vendor that was fixing it for many years. And finally, he was no longer around and there was dripping everywhere, we got some professionals in who were like, This is upside down. You need to replace everything. Because it was causing all these other problems with mold and damage.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Is that in the newer part? It was in

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: the newer part. Yes. That was done fifteen

[Unidentified Committee Member]: years Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It was the original installation of an HVAC system in the new addition where it's the administrative building is where the visitors go. Mhmm.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: And that was done by essentially a custom home builder, not an HVAC specialist.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And then we had to go back in, I think, because there was moisture in the walls, didn't we? Yes. In that building? Mhmm.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: And we had a project last summer that we had leaking downstairs in the Poolage Foundation's library. Right. So our one of our tenants there.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It was lack of quality on the contractors for not lack of understanding historic

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I think it's a little bit of both. Yep. It depends on the project. You know, if it if it's a mechanical, then it doesn't necessarily need to be a preservation specialist. But, you know, replacing the roofs a certain way and working on woodwork and plaster repairs, then we do need someone with those qualifications.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I I would like to think our BGS group can get quality vendors. It doesn't sound like they did in this case, so that's why I'm trying

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: That was back in the day, and now we're in charge of it. And we also meet regularly with BGS on their projects. And I will say ten Baldwin, just down the street, had a water break because of the cold, and they were like, We're gonna replace this all with plaster. Exactly.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So this was fifteen years ago. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. Just for giggles, it's also not just always the case of you're not being qualified. People sometimes just that they don't know how to match the historical requirements. Know, so just the thought That's what

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I was drilling into. It's the quality, not the historic. It was installed upside down.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Well, that case, yes. I'm just saying it could be both.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That's what I'm saying.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: There's a difference, and that's what I'm trying to

[Unidentified Committee Member]: understand. And I hope BGS has got vendors that don't do that now, because fifteen years ago, we won't shoot with it.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But they were looking at the blueprint upside down.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: That might this might all be a good segue into the old Constitution House project, because we are working on the energy efficiency and making interior environmental improvements. We that that building was also received some damage from flooding in '23. We have some FEMA public assistance funds to work towards this, but we also have a National Park Service semiquincentennial grant for this work, and that is 400 little over $400,000 with no match, but we did put a small match in, $53,000, just to make our grant look a little bit more appealing.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: One

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: of the issues is that the power plants, the furnace here has was also it died during the flooding due to a lot of corrosion and and other issues. Not only do we have to replace it, but because of the impacts of the flood hazard area and river porter rules, the FARC rules, we and FEMA's involvement with the public assistance funds, we need to take the furnace out of the cellar and move it up to the 1st Floor Level. We're actually looking to perhaps put it up on the 2nd Floor Level.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Is it a furnace or a boiler?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: It is well, that system has not yet been designed. We are not going to replace in kind here because we have a gangly old oil fired furnace that is not at all efficient. This building had some ventilation issues during COVID because it was sort of mothballed for that time, and we did have mold develop on the inside, and I have been working towards that. We will have, again, matching with the monies that we have available. We will have a little bit of a shortfall on this project as well that we will tap into fiscal year twenty seven funding, and then we'll have to find a little bit more.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So are you anticipating going out and doing the work in FY twenty seven?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Yes. Got it. Let's start if we can get finished with our contracting. We have a we have a building science expert that we're contracting with and a team that he's pulling together to design the system. We're doing some monitoring ahead of time, temperature and humidity, and a blower door test and other things to figure out exactly what our HVAC system should be and how we will also deal with air sealing. Part of this project deals with the exterior envelope, we'll be restoring all the windows and doing some other air sealing around the exterior facade.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: When do you anticipate going out to bid?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: We've we're in contract negotiations with a preferred vendor here as well. The design work went out to bid couple months ago, and we this was we invited three vendors, the vendor we're working with and the two that the only two that are on the BGS retainer list for construction projects. And this is our preferred vendor. We've worked with him in the past. He does have experience working with historic buildings. Actually, he is the author of a really important analysis on windows in northern climates, historic windows in northern climates that is sort of a seminal piece for us preservation folks. So we're looking forward to where this is going as well.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So are you actually doing some work on this this summer and fall? Yes.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Okay. The semi quincentennial grant expires September. We have not asked for an extension on that one yet, so we've got two additional years that we could ask for. But this building has been closed since 2020, and we really want to get in there and start interpreting and addressing the mold. And we are meeting regularly with A and R's flood managers who have

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Been on-site.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Been on-site several locations. In fact, those from other regions came because of the significance of the building. They wanted to see it, and they recommended that we do not need to elevate so we can get the historic exemption. However, we're looking with our structural engineer on alternatives, including elevating it just six inches, six inches or feet?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Six inches. Six inches.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And other alternatives to make sure that it doesn't get flooded.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: To be fully compliant with FARC, we would have to elevate the structure two and a half to three feet above its current datum, which would cause significant aesthetic issues and accessibility issues for entrance and egress.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Troy Headrick, James?

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: I know the rep from that area is eager. Yes. Any chance of opening in 2027 for the it the Semi quinceanera. Thank you. Thank you.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I've only just answered that. We are looking at some sort of soft opening just for the events around the constitution.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Gotcha.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: And when do you think grand opening, hard opening?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: 2028. And I've been in conversations with

[Unidentified Committee Member]: all

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: the reps from this area, irregularly checking. James?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So six inches, obviously you didn't just choose that for no reason, but when you look at it from the outside it seems like not very much of elevation for the cost. Is there any consideration of more like a foot or anything or is it really like I guess where did will six inches, I have no idea, solve this problem in any way?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Yes, it will help to it'll help lift the building a little higher and allow for a sort of floodway underneath it, and we'll be filling in the foundation. And so then there'll be an interstitial space between the top of the slab and the bottom of the floor framing. We don't want that right down on top of that slab. We're worried that it'll rot out some of the wood members that are comprising the 1st Floor. So one idea was to give it a little bit of space. That space could discreetly have some flood vents or other capability to prevent the flood. This building sits in the floodway. It's Northwest corner. And the threat is actually Lake Runnymede, which is right behind, which is a part of the recreational offerings there in Windsor. And we have all struggled as well as the FARC team. We really don't see the danger that the current mapping describes. If the building were to be flooded at a level above that, we would have much larger problems than just a six inch elevation. So our engineers looking at three different schemes, then the six may move to nine, but I it won't go up towards two because that that does that's a significant enough change in elevation that requires a lot of other issues to consider. And so I believe that because it is a modest elevation is one of the reasons we're able to keep the cost down. If it had to go up higher, it would require a lot more structural material to do that and secure it.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So you anticipate a soft opening possibly next summer?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. Around July 8 when the constitution was addressed in Windsor.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Any other questions on Old Constitution House? Okay. So this is a summation here of some of our projected shortfalls. And as we apply our fiscal year twenty seven monies, which we will see in July, we can essentially complete all of the poolage project, all of the Old Constitution House project, and at least the grant funded portions of the MORL project. That'll pretty much tap us out with about $10,000 left in our fiscal '27 monies. And as I mentioned, we still have to figure out how to fund the rest of the major architectural upgrades at the Morrill Homestead. But that that is, I guess, where we'll be at the end of this cycle, and it is getting a little bit smaller, our buffer. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. What if you just have something pop up at a facility that you didn't anticipate?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Which continues to happen year after year. Yep.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So where do you go for that?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Well, again, I think what we end up doing is we end up having to reallocate some funds that we have in hand right now to address that need, to fix those repairs, and then have to backfill it later when things are more available.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Exactly. It would likely push Old Constitution House out. The additional work at MORL would have to wait, And we would then also tap into our special fund, which is from admissions and gift shop sales that supports all of our seasonal staff, exhibits, activities, gift shops, things like that. We would be taking from our pocket. Or closing buildings.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What's the threshold when you say a project so big that BGS should be the project manager on it? Is that just a case by case basis or is it over a certain amount?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Think projects that have a higher level of historic preservation, we need to continue to manage because of our skill sets. There are a lot of parts of our portfolio that are new construction or are more modern repairs, those certainly, I think those are areas moving forward that we'll specifically ask for BGS' help on, things that are more common construction and more things in their wheelhouse. The monument is sort of its own thing, so

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It is. Isn't it terrible?

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: That's a good that's a that's the type of a project of that size, absolutely. Infrastructure that BGS has certainly is helpful.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And for the accounting, do they like code their time? And is there a transfer of funds over to BGS?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes, they do.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I'd love

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to think like, yeah, not just with you guys, but like, I'd love to take a closer look at that generally, just how BGS codes a time and how some of this is transferred from department to department. It's we don't always get into that too much.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So the project manager for the poolage.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Jessica Time.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It's from BGS.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So it's coming out of their budget.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: No. It is coming out of our money. We the way it works is she's in receipt of the invoices and the payments, and she approves them according to, you know, the project specifications. And then those come over to our agency and go through our payment process.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: And then we also get statements for her time. And that's part of the project cost?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yes.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yep.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So you're drawing on the expertise of BGS in some of these larger projects. Yes. But you also sift out the historic piece in terms of you wanna keep control of that or have a handle. So for the Coolidge facility, how do you work? Because there's a real historic piece there as well in the Coolidge. So how do you ensure that the project manager at BGS works with you folks?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We're involved all the way through. So we're helping to inform who the vendors are. We're going through contracting. Our site administrator is reviewing absolutely everything, drawings, meeting with the contractors. So we're involved with everything.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: And the scope of work is, I won't say it'll be hidden, but it's not work that is on sort of visible historic fabric. A lot of it is structural and removing the barriers to accessibility inside the building. Is pretty straightforward as far as an execution. So that's why this project, for example, is a good match. The work going on at the Morrill Homestead is different, it's cut from a different stamp, definitely. And there's more involved with the historic preservation crafts, woodwork and stuff, that that's the type of project that we're choosing to hold on to and manage.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But you have a shortfall going forward of about a million dollars, but that would be for future fiscal years to complete the Justin Morrow homestead. But in the meantime, your money is so tight between your f y '26 and your f y '27 that if something pops up at another historic site, one of these projects might have to be delayed a little bit.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: One of them might not have to go forward, or we might have to close the site that's having that issue or the building that's having that issue. Alright.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: We would like to end on a good note, however. We do have another project here, the Theron Boyd homestead, and this is a project that we have a tremendous amount of money available to us. Again, Laura has done the yeoman's work on reaching out and obtaining these significant federal grants. We have an $867,000.972

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: 972.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Grant with no match from the National Park Service that is emergency supplemental historic preservation funding. This will allow us to stabilize that building and essentially do the same types of repairs that are happening at poolage and moral, subsurface drainage, and and waterproofing of the foundation. We also we mentioned, I believe, last year it was in pending, but we have a private donation of $500,000 at this location as well. We were originally gonna use that money to stabilize the foundation, but now that we have this emergency supplemental fund, which was a grant that we really weren't anticipating, but we're very happy when it came in, it's gonna allow us to essentially deal with the exterior envelope here and restore the clabbards, the windows, the trim, and the roof. That's just a temporary corrugated metal roof up there right now. And so this this this is a project that has a lot of runway, and it has no other really pressures. There will be minimal need for any historic sites maintenance fund to go in there. We think most of the what we'll be doing there, almost everything is covered by these these mummies. And here, do have a little FEMA money as well for the damages that happened in 2023. So this is actually a project that we don't really have to worry too much about how we can move forward with it.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And when is the time frame for putting a shovel in the ground?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We got the disaster supplemental funding notice in December around Christmas time, so we're waiting for the grant agreement. And then we have to do an AA one with joint fiscal to accept the grant. But we should be looking at some archeology and some design planning this summer.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: I've already been on-site with engineers and have started some of the schematic designs for to get them started. So

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: This site has never been open to the public.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So I'm

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: really very excited to

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: do this. I've been in the works for thirty years.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yes. And we don't want to make it into a house museum. We want to keep it as it is to really get people to understand construction from the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, and then use it as a venue to train contractors on how to work on historic building. So you don't anticipate really going out to construction on this until next year? Right.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And what's the time frame for the National Park Service grant?

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: It's a three year grant. Three year

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: frame. And

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I assume MPS grant with no matching and the donor, the private donor, that's not fungible money. Can't use it elsewhere. It has to be on the board.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We asked her and she flat out said, I appreciate your other sites, but no. Void is my house. So

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I assumed.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yeah. We just wanna get fungible.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: That's all that I Okay. Was it on?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. Anything else on this? So you're running a pretty tight ship, and you might end up being in a little bit of trouble.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I thought your water's preserved, so I know how to deal with being underwater.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Are you? High school.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: But to also segue to covering things, we are requesting that fundraising be added to statute.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: There's language in the back of the governor's proposal. And I'm wondering, I'm looking at the time, we've got to do building community grants. Yeah. And, also, we've gotta do Bennington's. And then we have some other things scheduled around 09:30. I'm wondering if we could quickly do the building community Reschedule the Bennington. Yes. Because the Bennington's gonna take some time. Caitlin Forkins then. So, but the language, you start on the language. I think it's important to do the language.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: I have not seen if the governor actually put together specific language. So AI and I came up with and secure capital through fundraising.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It is. What it is, is section 10, if you go in here. And it's basically A lot of it is to help with the Bennington Monument, is what we heard from the administration, was that the historic preservation officer, with the approval of the Secretary of the Administration, may accept and solicit. So they added and solicit. So you can go out there and pound the pavement. That works. They also added that requests for approval for solicitations or fundraising campaigns must designate a specific project that the funding would support and a I fundraising think that is perfect so that you know

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: where the effort's going, the funding is going. Mhmm. That makes for great partnership.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Education. If we don't if if the words and solicit are in there, it's illegal for you to ask for funding? Correct. K.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: We can accept donations and grants and loans and other things of value, but we cannot actively fundraise ask. Right.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So that could help some of the shortfalls, and it could also help for the Bennington Monument. Correct. Hopefully. And your fundraising or solicitations need to be very clear what that funding would go to which project. I think that's

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: very smart, logical.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah, that makes for

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: great partnerships and gives people pride of what they're putting their money into. Great,

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: now it's easy. Let's quickly do the two grants. This is in building community grants. This is section five. Yes, section five.

[Caitlin Corkins, Division for Historic Preservation]: Good morning. Thank you all so much for letting me jump in here. For the record, I'm Caitlin Corkins with the Division for Historic Preservation. And I administer the Building Communities grants that are housed in the Division for Historic Preservation. So I'm just going to be giving you all a very quick update of the two programs. The first one is the Historic Preservation Grant Program, which was established in 1986. We offer fiftyfifty matching grants of up to $20,000 to nonprofit organizations and municipalities to support capital projects to repair and restore historic public buildings. This program was funded with $300,000 in the last fiscal year, and the recommended funding remains stable at $300,000 for the coming fiscal year. So this slide shows the last ten years. I know some of these are probably pretty small there on the screen. And the amounts that we have funded over the last ten years. Since the program started, we've funded over six seventy five projects, totaling about $7,000,000 in grant funds. Demand for the program has remained pretty steady. It is always competitive. We always get more in requests than we have available to give out. In fact, in December, we made the most recent round of grant awards. We awarded funding to 19 projects in 11 different counties, totaling a little over $300,000 in grant funds. I did send ahead of time, so you may have printouts of the little summaries of each of the projects that were funded in December. But just to share a few of those on this slide, we have the Old Stonehouse Museum in Brownington, Vermont. This is for a window restoration project. Then in Middlebury, the Ileslie Library, they will be putting a new slate roof to replace the building's original slate roof as part of a very large expansion project. But the slate roof project will be focused on the original historic library structure. And then finally, in Ferrisburg, the Union Meeting Hall. This is a former church that then became a town hall that then went through several other lives and is now being actively used as a community center. And this grant will cover masonry repairs to the brick on the building. Questions about that?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: All part of the Building Community Grants Program. Okay, barns.

[Caitlin Corkins, Division for Historic Preservation]: Great. So, barn grant program, very similar. This was established in 1992. Again, these are fiftyfifty matching grants of up to $20,000 and these support repair and restoration of historic agricultural buildings. And these can be owned by anyone municipality, a nonprofit, active farm, private individuals. The goal is really to preserve Vermont's agricultural heritage. So again, I have the chart of the last ten years. You will note that we haven't actually awarded the most recent fiscal year funding yet. That will be awarded later this month. But this is the previous ten years. And through the life of the program, we've provided over $5,000,000 in grant funding to support over 500 projects throughout the state. Again, demand on this program has remained consistent. I will say there's been maybe a slight dip in the number of applications over the last two to three years. I think the biggest barrier that I have heard from people in terms of applying to the program is their ability to find contractors available to give them estimates. And we do require that applicants provide at least one estimate with their application so we can ensure that they have a realistic budget before we get them with RAN. And that's been a real challenge for folks. I think Jamie covered some of the issues that we're seeing coming out of COVID. But the fact is there are just not enough tradespeople out there doing work. And so those that are are extremely busy, and people are struggling to get them to come and look at their project and give them a bid. So I wish there was a way that I could solve that problem. But so far, I don't know how to train more roofers and timber framers myself. These are more specialized, too. Yeah. See a lot of especially with the barns a lot of timber frame structures that really do require somebody with expertise to be working on the projects. Again, this is just a selection of projects actually from last February that we funded. The Allen Farm in Jamaica, which included a number of different pieces of projects, including drainage and foundation work and carpentry repairs to the siding, as well as a little bit of structural repairs. Valley Ridge Farm in Orwell, there's cupola repairs on one of several barns on property. And then the Remington Williamson Farm in Huntington, slate roof repairs on this barn. These functional farms? Some of them are, and some of them are not. They're not required to be in active agricultural use, but it does give them a little bump up if they are in the scoring matrix for the program. But they're still privately owned? Some of them are. Some of them are publicly owned, if it's available to anyone. So I just wanted to end by sharing one project that we funded that has wrapped up. This is the Braintree Hill Meeting House, which was constructed in 1845. It was the town's original meeting house and also was used as a church. As with very many churches in our rural communities, the congregation dwindled over the years, and eventually the building passed to the town. And then in 1970, to the Historical Society, they used the building as their museum, as well as hosting public events there. They've got a bunch of fun summer events that they host. There's a Bluegrass concert series between June and August. They have history themed bike rides, cemetery tours, an annual community cider press party, open houses, an old home day. So lots of fun community activities that are happening in the building. They've done a great job maintaining the building over the years, but recently became aware that the building's slate roof had sort of reached the end of its life. It was installed about one hundred and fifty years ago over the original wood shingle roofing, which actually was a very common practice. But what it means is that the fasteners that are holding the slates in place start to fail, and then it's very hard with those wood shingles underneath to make repairs that are lasting. So they decided that it was really time to do a complete reroof of the building. This is, as you can imagine for a small historical society, a really big project. But they did a tremendous job reaching out to partners from the federal government to the local level. The voters in the town voted to appropriate funding for the project. They got a significant federal grant through the National Park Service, And then we're able to fill out their funding budget with a matching grant from the state program. So this project was completed in the spring, a brand new slate roof that should last one hundred and fifty years. So thank you so much. And I'm happy to take any other questions.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thanks very much.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Thank you. So Laura, if you could hook up with Tate at some point and schedule for Bennington.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That'd be great. I would say a good forty five minutes for Bennington. It'd be more than half an hour. I should stop workings. I would say. I don't think it would be a full hour. I think it would be more than half an hour for sure. So a good forty five minutes.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Okay. Absolutely.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So follow-up to Tate.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: I'll reach out to you at the end up signing. Great.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I don't if

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: we have any models this year. No,

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: we'll leave that for Shawn. We'll leave that for Shawn. Okay. Thank you, folks.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It's lovely

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: to see

[Unidentified Committee Member]: you. Appreciate it. Thank

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: you so much. I would like to keep working through. We've got state challenges. And if you need to take a personal break, take a personal break, but not all at the same time, please. And let me get situated here.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: So

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: for the committee, this is state colleges. It is let me find the right section, section eight. There is no budget adjustment being requested, but there may be a new discussion on something, possibly.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So yes, a brief discussion. And I want to express an apology, some regrets. Chancellor Malk is not able to join us this morning. She was called to a meeting with a member of appropriations. So we will not be able to actually discuss much on particular proposal. I can give a brief preview.

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Just a brief

[Unidentified Committee Member]: overview. A little overview. And then she respectfully requests an opportunity to be able to come back in, if you would be so kind.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That would be fine. But I think the committee needs to have the first broad review.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Absolutely. But I can give a broad brush overview as to what that proposal might look like for you. And I am going to go ahead and log in.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So before you start, both of you, if you could both identify yourself for the record as well.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Go ahead, Logging in, please. For the record, Mike Stevens, AVP of campus operations for Vermont State University.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: And I am Sharon Scott. I'm the chief financial and operating officer for the Vermont State Colleges. And so I wanna say thank you for allowing us to come in and talk to you about section eight on the Vermont State Colleges. We are very excited about the opportunity to give you some updates on our major maintenance projects and also on the central heating plant project that we funded last year. Those funds have actually been put to extremely good use so far this year. And I'm actually going to turn this over to Mike to talk about in just a couple seconds. I know that I do need to share my screen to be able to allow you to see everything. But we have And

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: then you got to mute.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: I am muted.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. I think it's okay now. Sometimes it's late. Okay.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: I can't hear any volume. Okay. I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen. Like I said, we have had the opportunity to be able to work on some really significant work this year. In the capital bill last year, we funded $1,500,000 in major maintenance for FY '26 and an additional $1,500,000 for FY '27. And to date, we've already spent $1,200,000 on major maintenance. And we anticipate across the system, Vermont State University and the community college spending approximately another 500,000 to $700,000 on major maintenance. Obviously, you funded $1,500,000 so those additional funds will come from institutional dollars. And we've listed some sample projects below in what that looks like. And Mike is actually going to take you through a handful of those projects.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Happy to.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So 18 rupees a pound.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: All right. So as you can see on the screen, we've got all sorts of different projects that cover all sorts of our objectives, right? Safety, envelopes, ADA accessibility. As we look down through this list, we see generators, pools, stairs, HVAC equipment, all the things that make up a building. I think let's just jump into some of the specific projects. At Castleton Hall we had a roof project, skylights, windows, repairing some of the paint that gets damaged when we have leaky systems. We just try to keep our facilities as aesthetically pleasing as possible, but also recognizing that these institutions are significantly agent and require a lot of love in order to just meet that need. Happens to be a project that also chews some envelopes. Move on to the next. Different one here we're highlighting, right? Pumps, valves, still a heating system for the pool. So we replaced and repaired some pumps, we added new valve and we're able to salvage some existing controls for that specific system. End result there we've got a pool that's still operating a pool that's heating and we achieved some energy savings because the modern pump is far more efficient than one that's fifteen-twenty years old.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So can you explain what the

[Caitlin Corkins, Division for Historic Preservation]: pool is? Is it a

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: swimming pool? Yeah, single one of our primary campuses has an investment in an Olympic sized pool. So there's an Olympic sized pool at Linden, at Johnson, at Randolph, and at Castle.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And that's for the students and faculty?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Many of our campuses actually see the public general public utilizing those pool resources more than any of our students or faculty, to be honest.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So for the public coming in, do you charge them a fee? Yes. Or municipalities may have access to it as well?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: There is a fee for anybody that's not directly tied to the institution.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: But things like swimming lessons are frequently taught there. A lot of the local children learn to swim in the local pools at the college locations, which is a great opportunity for them to do the learn to swim programs. And so having a pool that operates effectively is really important for our ability to be able to function. The Randolph location actually has the highest utilization of all of our pools, which was fascinating to me when we looked at the statistics for it.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Yeah, we're spread across the state and the communities engage that resource at different levels for sure. Some of the pools are not actively used. Some of it has to do with local competition. Some of it there seems to be no rhyme or reason. The next one is another project we accomplished at our Castleton campus. All of these major maintenance projects are ranging from $25,000 to $250,000 Here we had something that you guys have heard about before bricks fall. So it's a safety issue, it's a chimney, it got relined, that relining had insulation values all the way down to the boiler of that particular facility. So we were addressing both the safety issue and an energy issue at the same time. Just another example, we tried to spread these examples across our different campuses. Exteriors concrete stair salt does a number on them. These stairs in the course of the campus have been replaced two or three times. Our Johnson campus happens to be steep every direction you go. You honestly do walk uphill to class and uphill home.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: When you

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: do something like this, do you look at something that combines stairs and ramps for accessibility? So you'll actually, just to the

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: right of the screen is a ramp.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Okay.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: But I will tell you that complete compliance with ADA accessibility on Johnson's campus is a challenge. Yeah. It's a very steep set. I'm thinking of a

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: set of stairs that also has a zigzagging ramp that intersects it on UEM's campus from down Aiken.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Yeah. Yeah. I happened to used to work for UVM also and oversaw the Aiken construction.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It's worked all over.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Helped build that ramp. Yeah. It's just it's it's gorgeous. Yeah. It is. Scaping and interrupting. But so you don't look at something like that? Is this just too short a span?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Well, so just to the right of that, as you draw off that that image Yeah.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: I mean,

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: this this starts to ramp up here, no chance back around. And then just to the left of this, you go immediately into a building. You can see the building on the side where there's almost immediately inside those doors is an elevator. Which

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: campus is this?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: That happens to be at Johnson.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So this is a very steep site at that location. But as Mike notes, it ramps off to the side and then there's a zigzag ramp that comes up. It is very hard to be ADA accessible right there. It is helpful in that building that there is an elevator right at that location. That elevator in that building is actually only new as of 2008, though. Prior to that, that building, which was built in the early 1960s, had no building. It was four stories. And there were four entrances. That was its ADA accessibility at those times.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Those are two dorms? The

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: one, the Green Building, is a dorm. To the left is the dining hall.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Dining hall. So that's governors? Yes. Governors had I mean, I went to Johnson. But the dining hall did have ramp type at the very

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Yes. But it was such a

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: big cross. But there was nothing underneath. Right. But the building is inside itself. Yeah. Itself, we have been accessed.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Correct. So it had that central staircase that took you down to the bottom floor. To get to dining, you could get to dining if you took the ramps, the exterior ramps, all the way outside. And there were exterior doors that could take you to every level. But it would have been very hard in a wheelchair or in on crutches to be able to do that. Now with the elevator that's in that building, since it makes it much more convenient, as long as the elevator is functioning. But it does make it very challenging when someone's walking outside.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And what about the dorms? Do they all have elevators and access in there? Because some of them Very are

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: well, I can't say very few. I would say about 50% of our dorm square footage has elevators.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Across the system? Across the system.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: At this particular location, only one of the dorms has an elevator.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And which one is that?

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: That is Arthur Hall. Martinetti.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I was gonna say Martinetti.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Also has an elevator.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Martinetti has an elevator.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: They had an elevator when I was there.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: It's it's small, but it does exist.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It's the

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: first elevator I'm gonna have to show you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: was fifty years ago, I hate to tell you. Wow. It's in families. Yeah. I was a part of school.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Yeah. I was one.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: You were in there too?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: No, I

[Unidentified Committee Member]: was one.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Oh, you were one. Oh, well, I could be your mother.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Wanna go to the next slide? Sure. All right. And here's one that captivates me a little bit more. Insulation and piping isn't exciting to everybody, but it's a critical need. This is the first morning I left my house that it wasn't 20 below.

[Caitlin Corkins, Division for Historic Preservation]: Right.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: In two or three mornings. So just the highlight of a project that's happening in a mechanical room that's mostly out of sight or out of mind, but absolutely critical.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And this also feeds our lab, this piping?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: No. This is Vail Hall on the Linden campus.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Oh, okay. That's why I saw Vail. Right. Okay. But this is up in

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Vail versus V A L E.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. So this is up in Linden. Okay.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Dale, the original president of AT and T, for folks who aren't familiar with the history of London.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Mhmm.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Didn't know that.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. So that's your major maintenance.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: That's your major maintenance.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And it's been $1,500,000 in 'twenty six and $1,500,000 in 'twenty seven.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Right. And those are just a sampling of the projects that Mike and his team have had to work on this past year. Without your support, their ability to be able to do that critical work that helps us get ahead of much of those critical issues before they become major problems would not have been possible. So we know how incredibly valuable these funds are to Monica and his team, and we really appreciate your support and our ability to be able to do that. I couldn't agree more. I mean, our environments are aging, and without the funds to keep these things up, it's already a struggle as is.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: We've had heating coils freeze on every single campus since the beginning since the mid December.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. Were the, like Lyndon, Castleton and Johnson were all built about the same time. When were they built more in the fifties, Almost was

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: all of our infrastructure seen significant building booms in the late sixties to early 70s and then in the 90s to early two thousand timeframes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But the original built, the buildings were originally built, was it in the 50s? Was it before?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: There's, it's been an ebb and flow to be honest with you. There's buildings that go back to the 40s and 50s for sure, but there was major expansions in the 70s and 90s.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So depending on the campus location, so for example, Johnson location, Much of the Johnson location moved up off of the School Street facilities, which were many homes, and then near where the elementary school was, up to the top of the hill. Its first building was in the late '40s, but not until the late '50s and '60s and then into the '70s, as the baby booming generation really started to see that really happening. And that happened also at Linden. Casa Green, as Mike notes, more buildings in the forties and fifties, but we do see a lot of buildings in those sixties and seventies eras. And then again in the nineties and February. There were buildings that were supported very much by the state of Vermont, right up through about 1996, buildings that were built through capital funding here. And then there were some funds of about $72,000,000 that were funded by the Vermont State Colleges between approximately 02/2012 to do additional building, so in the early 2000s as well. And so that's where we're kind of seeing this ebb and flow of additional construction. That additional construction between 2012 to 2000 2007 to 2012 really did address a lot of deferred maintenance, which has helped in some ways. But, you know, we're now in 2026, so some of those chickens are coming back home to roost. And you're seeing a lot of these things happening again. But the the very cold weather that we've had recently since mid December has not helped my dynasty. It hasn't. I'm copied in on the emergency notifications as to when these things break, and they're more often than not right now.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: And the other side of the coin is that's what we do. We expect those type of things. A building does not stay stable. You've got to maintain it. And that's our role, is to make sure that these assets are maintained as well as they can be.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But it is one of the

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: things that the Vermont State Colleges and Vermont State University has focused on in these last five years. So since COVID, since the Vermont State Colleges has really focused on trying to reinvest in itself, You'll notice at the start, we said not only are we spending your 1,500,000.0 that you've set aside for us for major maintenance, but the VTSU is also setting aside its own funds to address major maintenance. It's also setting aside funds to address other needs and issues related to construction, renovation, and maintenance outside. Those are things that the system and that the individual institutions of Vermont State Colleges did not use to do prior to 2021. And so those are things that we are really taking seriously because we have to be able to invest because it's important to keep the building envelopes consistent, make sure that the buildings themselves are going to work for us. And we can't expect you to do all of that for us. We need your help, but we can't expect you to do it all. You don't have all the funds. We would love for you to, but we can't expect it.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Any questions on the major maintenance? So it's 1,500,000.0 or FY '20 7 as well.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just wanna give you credit for how you laid it out with delivery dates and everything. It's something I think we could benefit from on all the budget presentations. That's very helpful.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, let's go into the heat plan. Chance?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: We might be a little bit more excited about Yeah, talking about that's this 1,500,000.0

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: and 3,500,000.0 in FY '27.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Yeah, so with the $1,500,000 fund, you can see any that's scheduled, the activities that we've completed to date. We've published our RFP, we've had our pre bid site visit, we've had the question and answer period submitted and bids are due on Friday. Exciting, this isn't the only project we have bids due on Friday. We also have a historic preservation job that Jamie and Laura are aware of that just walked out of the room. So we've got a couple different projects that we'll be receiving bids back on Friday. This work actually excites me because we're looking at this project a little bit different than I think a lot of people in the industry have looked at things like this in the past, predominantly an MEP HVAC job. And when you start talking about MEP and HVAC work, constantly hear the term return on investment mechanical electrical plumbing. And HVAC is heating ventilating and air conditioning. So what you hear a lot about in the industry is return on investment. Return on investment typically looks at a project from your first time cost and then the energy savings that that first time investment will recover to you. So how long will it take to pay back the project cost? This one we built in the RFP a far more dynamic evaluation process. It's not only about the return on investment. It's how much do we improve our energy? How much do we increase our reliability of our system? How much do we decrease the actual fuel costs that we pay into this? How much maintenance can we decrease by taking old systems offline and providing new systems? What's that result in a reduction of deferred maintenance? How old is the system? And how likely is it that we have to reinvest in that entire systems cost in the near future? So we're going to be weighing all those factors into this project to help us solidify the right approach to address the heating system on three quarters of the campus at Johnson.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: How old is the heating system there now?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Two of the boilers are sixties vintage and one of them is eighties vintage.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Sixties vintage. That's like me.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And the other one was in the eighties. And are you is it all three that you're looking at?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: We're actually looking at the system as a whole. The system as a whole feeds eight specific buildings on that campus. We're teamed up with, we will be teamed up with a design team and a commissioning agent, as well as Efficiency Vermont that will be joining us in the very first kickoff meet. So between those three industry experts, we're going to be investigating all of the ways that we can provide an HVAC system to this campus. We'll look at geothermal, we'll look at biomass, we'll look at fuel we'll look at all the various options, and with the three experts we'll have at the table, we'll select the source that works best for the campus' future.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So the money in terms of the 5,000,000 gets you down to construction documents?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: No. 5,000,000 will be including the cost of the project that we implement.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So so it will get you all through the project, and you anticipate just looking at that. So you would anticipating starting construction probably '27?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: I think you're spot on. You've done this before.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: As soon as we can turn the boilers off.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: There absolutely could be, right. As soon as frost comes out of the ground, we might be able to start implementing phases of this.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Could you get it done that summer? So it comes Yeah, at the

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: by the time that's built into the RFP that you have to be able to have our heating system back on for the next year.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And you'd still be using number two fuel oil?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: We're not 100% confident that'll be the outcome yet. We're going to investigate those other fuel sources. The current plant is number two fuel oil, right? As described 60s vintage boilers they're absolutely due to be investigated to see what is the best best decision for the next two decades.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thinking about questions like that, the proposals are due on the tenth and then mere fourteen days later award contract, is you guys do this for a living. So I'm not countering that just can you explain that? It doesn't seem like a lot of time to get those decisions.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Yes. So the decisions are actually from the award of the contract to the schematic design phase. Schematic design is June 19. What these firms are tasked with is reviewing the entirety of the system, the buildings that it provides the heating to, and coming back to us with a shopping list. That then we go through this enhanced return on investment evaluation to figure out exactly the scope that we are going to implement to give us the best bang for the buck for the $5,000,000 total project cost. My second question. So is the request for proposals and then award a contract or just for the design type that stuff and not for the actual

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes sir. That's what you're saying. Gotcha. Just to figure out

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Once we've got the actual systems we're going to implement, we'll step onto the design development and then the final construction document phase. Once those final construction documents are done, we'll put that out on the street for bid for contractors.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Get rid of it. Right of better, would see that right there, which is right on there. So

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: your schematic design is going to give you a better feel in terms of the 5,000,000 will carry you through.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Our intent is not to exceed this budget. We're going to select the scope that allows us to maintain the budget and provide the campus a more efficient and youthful system.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Working with Efficiency Vermont, in my conversations with Mike, he's explained to me that that may include replacing in place exactly within that same building and using a central plant in the same way. But it could also, as he's worked with various organizations and talked with efficiency in Vermont, it could also involve setting up smaller systems inside individual buildings. That might be less expensive. It might allow alternative fuels. It may allow alternative ideas. Not until we get further through the process will we have a better sense as to what that looks like. As he notes, the intent is to remain inside what's available for the budget and to look at what's there. If we can come back and say, in order to be able to do an alternative fuel, it increases the cost by 25% or 30%, we may want to come back to you and say, is that something that we're willing to invest in? That would be something that we could talk about. But we'd love to be able to know what that looks like. But for right now, we don't know what the scope looks like. We don't know what the possibilities are yet. So

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: right now you have a central heating system that the boilers are all in one building. For those eight buildings, yes. Where is the building located? Is it on the periphery?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: That's Arthur's Hall.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Oh, it's Arthur's? Yeah. Basement of Arthur's?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: It's in the basement of Arthur's. It comes out of the basement in two different directions, feeds off to Stearns and over by the stairs that we looked at briefly, and then goes on to feed governors and senators. The other way it comes out, it feeds Martinetti, Harvey, Dibden, Bentley, and the library for folks that might be familiar with our Linden campus.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: You just don't think about that, but all the underground piping was there. You just don't think about it. And that's old, that would be from the sixties?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: No, the underground piping actually, life expectancy of that type of system is about twenty five years. So it was replaced once in the 90s.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: But it too is coming to the end of its useful life. So as evaluating this, one other consideration is as you're looking at a central plant, knowing that that's also coming to the end of its useful life, there is that part of the framing and the consideration as to what that looks like. So we have a great opportunity right now to say, looking at this inside the pot of funds that we have, what opportunities do we have in order to use it most efficiently, make the best investments for the campus location, be wisest with it, and achieve all of these individual project goals, and look at what that looks like.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: How many students are there at the campus at Johnson?

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Currently living on the campus are about 200 students right now.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: How much empty dorm space do

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: you have? Occupancy at the moment is about 30%. Certificate? 30%.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Which dorm are they basically in? Arthur's, governors, senators?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Predominantly in Arthur's. There's there's some students in Gov's and the college apartments that if folks are familiar with the campus, there's 49 units a little further up the hill.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So what do you do with those empty spots in governors and then senators is totally empty?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Senators has currently upward bound is housed in this, but for all practical purposes, it's it's a relatively void space. We use it for outside partners, especially during the summertime. We do all those camps. We generate as much revenue as we can out of that asset, but the asset is pretty vacant most of the time.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Right. And half of Governors is used, just about?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: One side of Governors is dedicated for student living at this time. But the same in the summertime there. Actually, some of our campuses see more activity in the summer with summer camps and outside customers.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Does that have an impact on students who request singles and things like that? Do you are you more lenient around

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Student singles are readily available at

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: most campuses. Right.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: And that has been the case for probably the last ten years at most of our campus locations, that getting a single is relatively straightforward.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yeah. Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So how much how many students could be accommodated if you were fully occupied?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, what your student population? Because Johnson has traditionally always had a lot of folks who live off campus.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So Johnson historically has had among the lowest occupancy in terms, or among the lowest number of students living on campus. It has historically had a large population of adult learners, and learners who are graduate students, and learners who are part of an adult learner population. So I have worked in the system since 2003. And when I started, it was actually at Johnson. And we described them as three legs of a stool. One third of the population were adult learners, one third were graduate students, and one third were campus based undergraduates who might choose to live on campus. And so the available spaces to potentially live in the dorms at Johnson, it can be comfortably around 500.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Yeah. I had 500 plus points.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Yeah. 500 plus. You can squeeze more in, but uncomfortably. But about 500 is about what you can comfortably put into the residence halls at the Johnson location. And so we have about 200 right now that are living on campus at Johnson. But how many students do you have at Johnson as a whole? So we don't calculate that specifically. We calculate residency, occupancy. Because students can take classes, and they do take classes at various campuses, and they may take them in a hybrid format, it's harder to identify, are they affiliated with a specific people's location? So if someone is living locally, but they're taking classes at multiple locations, it's harder to affiliate them with a specific location. But I can write that down and see if we can calculate what that would be for you.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: The system now is statewide. So we do know how many students live on campus, but the students take classes in various modalities across the different institutions, depending upon where the instructors are. So it doesn't tie as well to a specific campus geographic setting as it wants to.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: But what I'm hearing is we have capacity for 500, Currently, there's 200 students enrolled and only 30% of them are actually living in these dorms.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Currently, there's 200. No. Currently, we have capacity for 500 to live on campus, about 200 are living on campus.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And Johnson, and I'm assuming probably Linden at one point, would always, after their freshman year, most people move off campus. I don't know if that's still the case, but that was quite often the case. It's usually your freshman class that lives on campus and maybe the first semester to your second year, and then they move off campus.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So if you're a Vermonter and you live within a specific radius of campus, you're not required to live on campus. And you're right, after the first year, many students choose to live at home after the first year or choose to move into an apartment after the first year. But to live at home, they realize it's less expensive. Maybe your parents cooking is easier. Access to someone doing their laundry or easier access to laundry might be easier. So there are a lot of students who do that. Out of state students or students that live outside of that radius are required to live on campus for two years. And so those students are required to live simply because we want to make sure that they're able to get to class and that those students are living there.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Other questions on the heating plan? Okay. Okay. So we'll have information from next year in January.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Absolutely. There'll be a lot more

[Laura V. Trieschmann, State Historic Preservation Officer]: Not before. If not before.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: They get a call during the fall. We have During the summer.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Absolutely. So

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: the next thing is brand new.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: The next thing is brand new. Capital budget. Not yet. So one of the things that the chancellor and President Burke have been doing over the last eighteen months has been doing a significant amount of community outreach with the communities where Vermont State University is located throughout the state. So Johnson And Linden, Castleton, Randolph, etcetera. And having the opportunity, especially in the Johnson And Linden communities, and Randall communities, to really understand what the needs are and to really have that ability to be able to understand what locally the issues are. And while the community needs differ from location to location. So for example, Johnson has the significant issues with flooding. And so the Vermont City College has partnered with them to propose a CDBG disaster recovery grant. Now, while we didn't win that grant, that proposal would have had the opportunity to create a resiliency center on the Johnson campus that would have been able to move the town offices up out of the floodplain and onto the hill, where it would not have been in the floodplain. A wonderful opportunity to be able to engage the community and get those resources out of there. But we've also worked with them about things related to access to health care and access to child care, the post office, etcetera. But an activity and issue that comes up over and over and over again in these conversations is access to housing. Housing, housing, housing. We hear it over and over again. And it's not just for the individuals that are currently living in the community. It's also for individuals who wish to come into that community, whether they wish to come in to work or they wish to come in for school. And what we know about the demographics of Vermont is that Vermonters are generally older, and the same is true for our students. The average age of our students is significantly older than one would think. They are typically part time, and they are typically quite a lot older. They're not at an 18 to 20 year old. They're typically in their late 20s. They often have families at some point. And so with that, one of the things that the chancellor has been working on is developing a for building housing on our college campuses that would allow us to be able to do housing for students, potentially students with a family, etcetera, or community members that would allow us to be able to engage and use our campus locations and build both housing for students and community. And so what she would like to come back and talk with you about is the opportunity to be able to receive a million dollars to support capital planning and pre development costs to further develop out this concept. Would include funds for things like early planning activities, doing some feasibility studies, getting into further design work, really going further into the design estimating. We have engaged with an architect to help us. Obviously, you can see we have an artistic rendering here. We have some site maps, etcetera. But really to be able to better understand and make sure that this is something that is fully feasible and is workable for the state of Vermont and workable for these communities. So she would come back and meet with you as a committee and engage in a better discussion as to what that looks like. And apologies for not being able to be here this morning to share that.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So this is anticipated for the Johnson Campus?

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: As proposed right here on this page, this would be the Johnson Campus. One thing that we have learned, and we actually learned this from the state of Vermont as it was building the Vermont State Colleges, is the concept would be to create a concept that could be replicable on any of our campuses. And so really have a plug and play sort of apartment complex that you could build on any of our campus locations with maybe some modifications. So if you're familiar with the Vermont State College's locations, you might be familiar with Dewey Hall on the Johnson campus, which is the same as Harvey Hall on the Linden Campus, which is the same as the library on the Randolph Campus. And it's very similar to another building on the Gaspoon Campus. The same is true for Arthur Hall on the Johnson Campus. The state of Vermont, as it was building buildings, they created one set of plans and did some modifications. It was a great concept. Genius. It's a genius. We love the idea of being able to replicate that and build something that is a little bit more modular. So as you can see here on the right hand side of the screen, it could be built, as shown here, this could be built in two phases. You have two little Ls. You can build one L with a little section in the middle, and then you can build a second L. So as funds are available, you could build one, and you could build them out anywhere, and make them almost modular through a degree. But the chancellor would love to come back in and have the chance to talk with you more fully about these concepts.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So where on the campus would you, is it projected to be?

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So for this particular one here, as you can see where the red is located, that is actually a part, it's on top of a parking lot. So the concept here would be to place a building where we already have impermeable surfaces, recognizing that that's an issue here in the state of Vermont. So where we already have an impermeable surface, there's a large parking lot located behind the Visual Arts Center on the Johnson Campus. So if you're familiar with the Johnson campus, you have the main quad, there's the Shape Building, which you go up the hill, and you see a Shape Building. And behind that is the visual arts center. So you go up a little bit farther hill. And then there's a big parking lot, massive parking lot. The idea would be to place the apartment building inside that parking lot. We have similar parking lots that are relatively unused across all of our campuses that could be used for a similar kind of purpose. In this particular instance, right here would actually overlook the soccer fields.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So that's on the way back of the campus. When you come up, then you just keep going. Because when you come up the hill, that's the beginning of the campus, but it's all the way in

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: the way. Yes. Yes. So if you start on the upper left hand corner, there is you're starting up there. If you come up Play Hill and you're coming in the main entrance, you come through the Y there, you can come along the back, kind of the back property, and you go through the woods, and you'd land right back there. If you come the other direction, you actually come along the soccer fields, you would see the building across from the soccer fields. Fields.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I'm just

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: curious, and we don't have to go into depth on this, in a general sense, as you're looking to build new housing on this campus, kind of a two part question. What happens to the existing buildings that are currently or have been built for housing, for student housing? And how does this all fit in with the enrollment cliff that we're all anticipating across higher

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: I think these are great questions for Chancellor Mauk, and I'll take them back to her. Just on a preliminary basis, what we know is that these students are older. And the reason for looking at apartments, in many cases, is that they're not 18 to 22 year olds. So they aren't looking to look in a dormitory by themselves or with a roommate. They're looking to be adults. Looking to have a life, whether that's living independently by themselves, or with a partner, or with family. And that's the fundamental difference, that our students are older, but the communities are older, too. And those are the same things.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Anticipated impact that this will have on the surrounding housing availability, not on campus?

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: Great question for Chancellor Mauk. What we do know that in Monroe County, there are 1,200, there's a lack of 1,200 housing units in Lemuel County alone, just looking for in Johnson. What the Lemuel County Planning Commission has indicated, there's a 1,200 unit housing needed. That's enormous. This would be a drop from a bucket.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I miss why you're expecting an enrollment drop off? Oh, too I know we're seeing it, but

[Unidentified Committee Member]: was implied that we're

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Everybody is forecasting that across IRA, across the country, especially in Vermont. Because? Because there's no kids. It's a demographic problem. Purely demographics.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Across the nation, not just It's

[Unidentified Committee Member]: not just Vermont.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: It's What is Vermont? Right. It's gonna be punctuated

[Unidentified Committee Member]: in Vermont. No. No. I'm not just screaming. I'm just curious why it

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: would anticipate. The Northeast the Northeast has a demographics problem, but all of the North has a demographics problem. But Vermont and Maine have a very significant demographics problem. We're not having babies. And we didn't have babies eighteen years ago, and those are our problems. It's why we are recognizing very much that our students are older, and who our students are. It's one of the reasons why occupancy in our traditional residence hall may go down. When you're 27 years old or 30 years old, living in a dorm isn't going to necessarily cut it for you, particularly not going to cut it for you if you have a spouse or child. And so as we look at who our students are and what our communities need, it's not just our own students, but it's what our communities need. And we are trying to respond very clearly to what do our communities need and how does that also intersect with what our students need and try and find what that sweet spot is here. And we know that housing is among those really critical issues and not just in Johnson. Johnson is clearly one that we can speak to very easily, but it's also Randolph, and it's lending, and it's We hear it everywhere we go. Workforce housing, we hear it everywhere. And we would love to be able to find ways to be partners in that.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Is online learning part of it and not really effective yet? In terms of I think Phoenix Online Kitchen Masters in one year for $11,000 Are we finding that online learning is taking away from campus life and going I to

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: don't think that online learning is taking away from campus life. I think that a student who's interested in online learning has a different set of goals and objectives than a student who is interested in a campus based experience. So a student interested in a campus based experience, living on campus and having a campus life experience, is someone who is looking to grow in a different way. Someone who's looking for online experience has life experience usually.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So we have some more questions here, James and then Actually,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: in respect for time, and I think the answer is after Troy's question, is in line with mine is gonna be the chancellor is gonna answer it. I'll wait. And it's just about housing and the whole world. I'll wait

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: until the chancellor comes in.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Very generous of you, sir.

[James "Jamie" Duggan, Director of Preservation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation]: Quick question. Has the hall that's empty been looked at for renovation possibilities?

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Senators.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Senators and

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Half of governors.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: And half of governors.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So we have had the opportunity to talk with

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: the HDB. Vermont Housing and Conservation Board has come to the campus and toured our facilities two years consecutively.

[Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yep.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: And it's their evaluation that the infrastructure there is not easily converted to a living environment. Concrete

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: walls.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: So we've engaged with the state's experts and walked them through. The results are, it's just the cost of construction to convert an infrastructure like that's extremely high.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah, concrete walls, right?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Concrete walls, it's concrete ceilings. It's CMU block walls, but it's concrete ceilings, waffle slabs.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: You'd have to tear it down. It'd be easier to tear down the renovate, I would think.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: I would guess it would probably be easier to tear down than to renovate that particular building. There may be other buildings on other campuses that might lend themselves more to it. But remember the time period in which many of these buildings were built. It was brutalist architecture times, lots of concrete, lots and lots and lots of concrete.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Other challenges, Low floor to ceiling heights and that type of construction. About the time COVID hit us, was changes in ASHRAE, which controls HVAC requirements. All environments now need air exchanges, which pretty much means ductwork. And when you add ductwork to low ceiling heights, there's a tremendous amount of challenges. Anything and everything can be done with time and money, but I don't know that it's the most fiscally sound decision to try to convert those structures.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: That being said, the chancellor and President Berger are actively working and engaging with the community and the business partners to seek ways to be able to find organizations and others who may have an interest in using those facilities in different ways than we use them today. So as we look at things, we're working with a partner to come in and actually move into a portion of Stearns Hall, hopefully in the next couple of months, to be able to take advantage of being able to use that building and bring in some much needed services to the community, which I think will be really great. But they are slow to develop, and they're piecemeal. So it's just something that will take time as we work that. Again, they're all local. I know they say all politics are local, but so is development. And it's one of those things that as we look at as what we're looking at for those buildings, how do we make those buildings as relevant as we can? Or look to say, does a building get mothballed? Is it something that we propose for demolition? Is it something that we propose to do something else? If it really cannot be used. It's a shame to see a building empty.

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Think you're highlighting a good point, though. When a local community member comes to us with a need and we know we have an asset, this particular community member is going to take up about 5,000 square feet in a building that's a little bit more than 50,000 square feet. But those are absolutely the things we can act on. If there's a need and we can make it work, we absolutely want the campus more vibrant, we want to engage the local community, we want to bring them to provide those services to our campuses.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We funded a few years ago master plan for you folks. Does this play into that master plan?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: Absolutely does.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Is this an addition to it?

[Mike Stevens, AVP of Campus Operations, Vermont State University]: No, this all ties together.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: At that point, for members that were here, the part of that master plan was to determine through our campuses what buildings you wanted to keep and what buildings you wanted to get rid of.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: So instead of getting rid of any, you're adding a building. I think this allows us to be able to better position ourselves to look at how do we make sure that we, while potentially looking to eliminate, how can we seek to also meet the needs? But I completely agree.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah, so you're a separate entity from the executive branch, yet you're very reliant on them submitting the capital budget every biennium, right? I was wondering if you could just tell me how that process works. Do send them, agency of administration, everything you need and they say, Okay, this is what we can put in? Or do they give you a target? Like, Okay, we need to cut 3% or you can only get 5% above?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What does that back

[Unidentified Committee Member]: and forth look like? Just curious.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: We get the same instructions that all of the agencies receive. So whether it's capital or general fund, we receive the same set of instructions, and we follow the instructions that come from the agency. And then from there, the governor's office makes its determination as to how it can move forward. We have a hearing with them on both capital and on the general fund, but they make their determinations on what that looks like. Because we are separate, it's probably a little less. I'm not as familiar. Think it's probably a little back and forth. But we go through the same process, but it's probably a little abbreviated.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Gotcha. Thanks so much.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So was this 1,000,000 requested of the governor to include?

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: It was not in the request. It's not in

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: the request. So the 1,000,000 would be to start the process of planning? And feasibility studies. And then next year, we would have a better idea of how we move.

[Sharon Scott, Chief Financial and Operating Officer, Vermont State Colleges]: That would be the intent. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And so there's a request of $1,000,000 for our capital budget adjustment to begin this planning process. So we will have the chancellor in to go through a little bit more in detail about this. I know that you've given a presentation to the Senate Institutions Committee, have you? They're doing it this afternoon. Any other questions before we take a break and then shift to corrections? Anything else on this? Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll be in

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thank you.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So if you could connect with Tate to make sure when it the chance would be great if there's some time next week. Wonderful. I will if

[Unidentified Committee Member]: we can sweep through those now.

[Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So for the committee, we're on live still, folks. So let's take a break and be back here with them by quarter of.