Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Welcome back, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions. It's Thursday, January 29. We're continuing our work on the capital budget, and we are in section 13 that deals with public safety People think of it as our state police division, basically, our state police department, but it includes a lot of other divisions. We're going to get an update on some current projects as well. There's a resetting of one of the projects we started a few years ago, which was the urban search and rescue for that. So I'm going to turn it over to the Commissioner of Public Safety, Commissioner Morrison.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: Thank you, ma'am. Good morning, members of the committee. My name is Jennifer Morrison. I'm the Commissioner of Public Safety. I am joined by several members of our team. Public safety is a home to eight divisions, and state police is the largest, of course. But we are also home to the Division of Fire Safety. And within the Division of Fire Safety is the Urban Search and Rescue team and the Hazmat team, which is integral to what we're going to be talking about today. And Deputy Commissioner Batesy is here. We're joined by our friend Joe Asia from VGS, who's going to talk as soon as I'm done doing a little intro. Captain Manley from the state police, our financial director, Rick Allenbett, and Mike Brochure, who is the director of the Division of Fire Safety. I want to start at the top, which is what you've referred to as the Urban Search And Rescue Building. It's actually what we've been calling a special teams building, and this goes back to Commissioner Schirling. He first proposed this in, I believe, 2021 or 2022. Recognizing the need that we have multiple assets that are very, very expensive, and we have no appropriate location for them. The two divisions within fire safety that have these assets are the hazmat team, which, as you can imagine, there's a lot of equipment, gear, trainers, trucks, etcetera, and the urban search and rescue team, which is everything from swift water rescue, as you've seen during the flooding, so boats, engines, all sorts of gear. But we also do shoring and rope rescue. A lot of Mike, if you want details, Mike can give them to you. But there's a lot of specialized equipment in those two units. So put that in the parking lot that they are currently housed in what has been loaned to us. It's an old out of use AOT hangar up at the 40th And Allen. The State Police Williston Barracks were rebuilt and moved across the road, basically, about two years ago. During the build, they ran into more ledge than they anticipated, and they had to cut out the storage, the cold storage for all of the boats and the recreational boating program. And some of that other storage stuff includes snowmobiles and specialty vehicles, ATV type stuff that the state police need in the course of their work. So that stuff is still remaining at the old Williston Barracks. We long ago identified a need to bring all those places together and get out of a lease in Williston for the regional fire office. So the Division of Fire Safety has four regional offices. One of them is in Williston. And so that regional office has its own lease. We would like to take all of these components and put them together under one roof for a variety of reasons and economies of scale. And we have been trying to move in that direction. And you're right, Madam Chair, it's gone in a few directions. I'm going to let Joe talk about where we are currently. We're very comfortable with where BGS and the agency of administration want to go with this. We're very anxious for this to actually move ahead. As I said, we have millions of dollars of equipment that are sitting up at 40th And Allen without sprinkler coverage. And we have people whose workstations are in a completely dilapidated building that is not fit for people to be working out of. So that's a high priority for us. The other two things you'll see in the capital bill, as Joe will explain, we bought a piece of land in Clarendon many years ago, more than ten, I think. And the Rutland Field Station of the Vermont State Police is due to be replaced and moved to Clarendon. So that is the first priority for the next field station redo. And then next, the line behind that is Shaftesbury. And that's earlier in the planet. So with that overview, unless you have questions for me, I'll let Joe give you a little more of the detail.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I do have questions on the Shadbury one. Some of us have been through this before. We are in leased space right now, I believe, in the Shadbury Barracks. And has there been any preliminary work done with your department in terms of another location possible or any work done with the community? Because when we looked at this a number of years ago, it was a big, big pushback for the community of losing that location at Shaftsbury, where state police had.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: So I'm gonna let Joe speak to the specifics of Shaftesbury. I can tell you that on the builds, rebuilds of of barracks that I've been involved in, we do. Captain Manley's been involved along with the local station commander, but they work closely with BGS in the beginning to do the assessment, the scoping, and looking at available parcels, of land. So that's that's been my experience. In terms of, like, public engagement of how people feel about where the field station is. I've not been involved in anything related to that, but perhaps Joe or Kevin only know a little more. So I'll get out of the way and unless The

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: issue was they didn't wanna see it leave?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: They didn't wanna see it leave because it's a small community. They really felt they depended on that headquarter for public safety. It was pretty emotional. Was it fifteen years ago? It was quite a while It was about fifteen years ago. While ago. And it was put aside at that time because there was so much public pushback. And I'm just wondering, is that happening again or was people not aware

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: of it starting? I don't know the answers to that. My colleagues might. You just identify yourself for the record.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Sure. So I'm Captain Mike Manley, captain of the Vermont City Police. So the main point of contention I believe with that was there was talk of us consolidating Chatsbury to Rowan like we did with Rockingham and Bratteboro, but as far as the view today is that we want to keep the station down in Bennington County.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But maybe not at In

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: that general area, which I think the community is in support of the goal is if we hook it up to Rutland County, we're which not planning to do at this point. This is about the specialties facility. It's not really it's not a question about what you're gonna do, but it's it's a big one, and it's kind of moved the moving parts or whatever. And I know this will be a big lift for everybody, but is it possible for us or a group of us with BGS and public safety to go visit this place and see what exactly the plan is in the future?

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: The the building that we call the cache is of the the old it it's at the AOT facility in 40th And Allen.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Where they wanna go? No. Where they wanna go.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh, they won't go with the

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: I don't know if we know where we wanna go yet. I think there is a thought that the building that we call the Cache could be rehabilitated extensively.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's the old Wilkes Barre.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: No, that's up at 40th And Allen. It's right in the same parking lot as one of the AOT buildings, the District five AOT office. I think that's a thought. Joe will have more on that. I do think rehabbing or retrofitting the old Williston State Police Barracks is also on the table. And those appear from

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the get

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: go to be a less expensive alternative than building new or even leasing, build to suit your needs type thing. So this is the end of my wheelhouse for this side of the discussion. That's why Joe is here. I'm gonna let you sit here, Joe.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Hang on. I think

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: James said some Well, because I'm not I mean, I am kind of dumb, but I mean, will assist. What I do mean is because this has been an issue. I mean, I've only been on this committee here, but I know that it is moving. And just your answer right there is we're not really sure. And it seems like it's something, especially by like, even noted that we have millions of dollars of equipment where it really shouldn't be. So it seems like it's probably a situation we wanna rectify quickly, and maybe people can wrap their heads around it easier. Maybe not. Who knows? Maybe Joe will give us a presentation. We're like, let's go. But it seems like

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: This has been a top priority for the Department of Public Safety for every year that I've been the commissioner, and it has stalled for various reasons. And we are anxious to see this advance. That is our top priority ahead of, although they run-in parallel paths, ahead of the Clarendon Field Station, because this is our most urgent need to build towards the future and protect what we have.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: We'll learn more, but that's my point. It's a big thing, and somehow we're gonna have to figure this out even later, and it's been a long time.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yes, it has.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you. So come on up, Joe.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: For the record, Joe Luneau, director for design and construction with Village and General Services.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And why don't we start with Shafesbury? Your first item is really Shafesbury in your handout, so let's just start.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Okay. It may be either in reverse order, but that's what you wish. You're the chair.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's what it is in my document.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. So okay. So first time is Shafta. And what we have, as just mentioned, is the lease facility. So the photo on the bottom right is a picture of that facility, has public safety. It did well for a number of years. Again, it's the growth. It's a continued lease. And to get into another facility similar to what I would get started with way back when we started with Derby years ago. And it's somewhat of a cookie cutter model that is H shaped, that could be expanded if need be in the future years. The only one that doesn't fall under that cookie cutter model is Berlot, the Berlot that we had in Berlot. However, for both Clarinet and Chattenden, we will be looking back to that same design because it seems to work well for us. We get a $150,000 in bond coming in FY twenty seven. At that point in time is when we'll start the process of going out, potentially doing a land search. But really, it's starting with a program of and confirming that program. What does that mean? As I said, we have a cookie cutter. But what exactly does a Chattesbury barracks need that may be a little bit different than any of the others? Once we understand that, we have the size of the building. And then we do that land search, what is needed. Another critical part when we do search for land, though, is the tower and the connection. And whether I don't recall if that one's in the microwave or not.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Not

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: sure. So part of the problems is that we have when we put the tower in is to be able to see two other towers. So it would mean there is a loop that goes around the whole state that public safety has for their radio system. And so that is one of the things that we'd be looking for. There are some anomalies in that. In Berlin, they're running out of fiber instead of a tower. And I don't think you're using the tower in Westminster. Although, we do have a tower in Westminster, but I think that's also run off of five. Okay. That's for their microwave system. So that's starting up. You know, once the bill passes, we'll be I'll be assigning a project manager to get going on that and starting that process.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the 150 is to work with state police, work with you folks, design possibly get into design and figure out?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: We would want an architect on board to confirm that programming. And also when we look at land to evaluate that to see what's the cost of construction on that site versus another site. If it has ledge, if it has no municipal water and sewer, the likes of that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When does the lease on this current building expire?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: That I can't answer, but it's been there ever since I've been here, and we just keep renewing.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: I believe it's a long term.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Long term? That's right. Is there any possibility of purchasing and building on that property?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Perhaps. But what I don't know is the problem right off, I don't know the true size of the property. And then what do you do on a temporary basis for public safety? It can be done. You can bring trailers in, some mops, someplace else, and they're like with a tower. By even if you move it five, ten feet, it may be out of the alignment if it is in that the way the microwave. So that's one of those things that could be considered and looked at. I don't know if the owner would be looking to sell.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Put that out there as a thought.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Yeah, it's not an ideal site if we were to choose because it's like a rock quarry behind and I know the water is extremely bad there. There's some other issues, but I don't know if there's a space to do because it's a pretty small site.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Depends on your program, mate. So it depends on the design of the building. Troy?

[Rep. Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: The site where dust was an issue too from that, Corey?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Rep. Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Slate? Looks like a half acre or something for months. Right? Around. I just take a

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: know of that that grass area out there, but it is a a raised null. So, you know, trying to flatten that. I don't know if it's possible. With a quarry right next door, it could be sitting on the ledgers. Well, chances are. Ledger runs funny in Vermont, so you never know. You never know.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Could be a burial ground.

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: You know, we live.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: I like that one.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. Anything else on this? Let's go to Ralph.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Next up is Clarendon Field Station project. That one has been funded in the past, FY '26, both for bond money and cash. And we're not looking for additional funds on this. We do have an architect, working right now. We'll have a soon we'll have the contract executed. So we are starting on that process. As the commissioner stated, we purchased this shortly after we started designer construction. I think it was design at Westminster, thinking that was the next one to go. However, Williston site, the old building, we just really just couldn't make it a few more years. So we pivoted at that point in time to go to a new Williston site and constructed that one. So now we're back at the Clarendon Field Station. With the ownership of the property, on the bottom photo, you can see the ally of that property, and it's at the intersection of 103 and State 103 and Route 7. L shaped property. So from the concept designs that I've seen so far, it can work out pretty good. It will be coming in off of actually, the Secondary Road, 76, coming in off of there to access the site. And so it's really gonna be that front part that you're gonna be driving into would be the the public entrance. The state police will be driving by, similar to what we have at Westminster.

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: That would probably be

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: a little bit different. And that way, anything out back is better protected.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So where are they gonna access? Is it from Route 103 or Route 7?

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Route 79. It's it's

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: 39. 78. Sorry.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Right right off the gate.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: 3 and then up. Okay.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: So we can't come off of 7 because the, the ramp gear from 103 is too tight, so we'd be coming off of here and coming in a slot. Yes. It's

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: across the road at an

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: airport. Right?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: The airport, as you're headed down, is probably what Less than a quarter mile of ProFloss. Towers. We're down the runway.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: A bit more. And when we started this project way back when, we did look at whether or not we can put a tower in there, and we can. So FAA at that point in time had given us approval, and the approval said, yes, it could work.

[Unknown committee member]: You got any wetlands or anything in there?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: No. But the land is not great. It's good clay and whatnot. So when we were looking at septic system at one point in time, we would have two or three fields. When we first looked at it and purchased the land, there is a sewer line going by to the city of Rutland. So At that point, but in a few years past, they had reached out to us to see whether or not we give up our rights because they could use it for development. And we did. We've been in contact with them. There's still plenty of allocation, so we'll be able to connect to City of Sewer, who will be drilling a well. At the time, you see the sort of the hedges that are running through the sort of the center of the property. It was an old drive, and Green Mountain Power had power line running through there. With our delay and everything else, Green Mountain Power is going ahead and basically going to be moving that line around the edge of the property along Route Seven-one Hundred 3. So it actually works out well. And they said that they would be kind enough to drop a transformer in wherever we needed along that line. So that works out also in our benefit. And then there's not that division where we don't have to pay to relocate the line. Just curious what's the little carve out, the little tiny Yeah, yeah, don't know. Maybe it will. I looked at it years ago because I had a question, but it may be what it was. There's something odd.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What are those white buildings?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Those are storage trucks. Or sorry. Not storage units.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for the committee, look at the estimated costs. Looking at 19,000,000. The state police barracks in Williston bumped up 23, 24,000,000. They came in. We knocked it We

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: had to come back for additional Yeah.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Two get

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: through the

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: e board, but I think I gave back over 2,000,000.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It should have up $2.20 20 plus. 22 something.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: I don't know the exact dollar.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Nothing. That's

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: coming up, folks. Because construction costs are not going down. No.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The way that we have really reined in the cost, but that's what Joe relate to the cookie cutter. We have a base design for our state police headquarters. We've developed that a long time ago. So you've got the base design. You can expand that, or you can make it smaller. So they're not starting from scratch in terms of what the building layout would be. Yeah. Thanks. Kevin?

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Has your crystal ball stated that there'll be competitive bidders for that $19,000,000 project?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: I never know that. My crystal ball really cracked. However, along those lines, we have been seeing more contractors bid our work. We're getting two as opposed to one or none. So I think it is headed in that direction. So I think by the time that we are ready to start construction, there will be two, three bidders, maybe more.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: When do you think you would be starting construction? FY '28, FY twenty ninth? Can't do it '28. Well, maybe

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: '28. '28. I'm not a 100% sure. It it also we gotta go through permitting.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And the money.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: And the money.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Jane got the money right now.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: No. We'd be looking for a request next biennium.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. Because you're only getting schematic design. You've got quite a ways to go to construction.com.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: No idea what next biennium will be yes. It will be.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So it could end up being more than 19,000,000 depending.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Could be. Depends on with the tariffs and everything else that are happening.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: What is what does this replace, or does it add on to where we need

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: we're all in right now. They have it's in the top photo here. You'll see where they it's labeled the transportation department, but really that is the public safety facility. The biggest issue that they have other than the, you know, the building seen its day is the fact that the 100 flood elevation comes close to that building. There had been several floods that they can't get out onto Route 7. Wow. And so so looking at everything that they renovate in place, we go search for new. And we decided way back in '13 Look for new. Trial to look for better land. So this land is high and dry.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: So what would you do with the other one?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: That's a good question.

[Unknown committee member]: Keep it for now? And

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. The rest of that site on the right hand side is in the north side at the top of the photo would be transportation. The little house black one here in the left upper corner is our DMV office. Oh, gotcha. So it's a complex. Whether or we can repurpose that building, we have not looked into that yet.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The DMV, is that for the public to come in?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes, it is.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Where in Rutland are they located? Off the route where on Rutland?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: South the Route 7.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What part of Rutland? The North Part?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: North Part of Rutland. Yes.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Beyond Route 4?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: next year, we'll have a better idea, whoever is sitting here, we'll have a better idea in terms to design documents. We'll then indicate what the projected costs will be. Then that's where the committee weighs in in terms of how we move forward. Because when we were doing the Williston replacement, we were well along in design. You hadn't gotten quite to construction documents, I don't think. And that was back quite a few years ago, five years. It was over 24,000,000.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: And when

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that ticket came before the committee, the committee said no way. And we asked folks to go back to the drawing board and reconfigure some of that building. I think there was a big conference room or a big-

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: The conference room was larger because of the area that serves. But we did shrink that a little bit. We shaved here and there, and then we also carved off the reindeer's new edge.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Which is for the next.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. So then they came back before us with a lower amount that we designed. We approved that as a committee. And there was some cost overruns because COVID, And then we ended up basically back where we had originally started with a smaller building, but that price tag was around 23, 20 feet.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: So what like, where would the buildings be in in the in this, you know, the in the yellow area? Like, would some of that Roughly

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: right here. So they'd have your public park and everything else that access out here.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: A drive going by to go out back for there's a a garage where public safety and BGS are joined in that, and then they have their additional parking and everything. Gotcha. Okay. Thanks.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So to throw another thing on top of this, if this gets approved, like, next year or the year after to really start work on this, the arts and state buildings program can then kick in and know this is a major project that's happening. And this might be one of the new one of the buildings that they would propose some art and state buildings for. And then part of that could be maybe incorporate some of the art into the actual building itself. It could be railings, it could be entryways, walkway, it could be a variety of things. So that's where the Art State Buildings Program kick in once this proposed project was given approval to go forward. Just so you folks can connect the dots.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It might be one, it might not be one, but it would be I mean, the building would be an eligible building.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Evaluation and PICS.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: I probably shouldn't do this, for my own head, we're talking nineteen, twenty plus million dollars. We've got a functional system right now. Who determines this is higher priority than the women's?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: They all balance it.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: I understand. But who's literally saying the timing on this? I hear potential flooding. Do we need more room? This isn't the time, but I

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: would Reduce the time because you got the folks sitting I'm trying understand how we

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: decide that we're, you know, in the next four or five years, we're gonna spend $25,000,000 on this as opposed to turning down the path for the prisons.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Wait. Who's making the bill of my pay grade? Well I mean, that's when you're building the capital bill, and you do take those things into account. So the you know, my office, my commissioner, the governor's office. You know? So all those needs come in every two years, and everybody, you know, their wants and their priorities and it gets sifted out.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that might be a good question too for Department of Public Safety. What determines on your end to make that request of the 5th Floor that this is the next place that we need to build new or renovate. And it might be worth to hear from the actual department that's requesting this. Sure. So

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: each year we're asked to prioritize our capital requests.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you're asked of that

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: from who? From the governor's office. Well, from BGS, but on behalf of the agency of administration who sits things up to the governor's office. And the order of replacement of the field stations is based on the condition they're in. So the worst ones have been replaced, and the one that is most urgently in need of replacement, and I'll let Captain Manning give you a word picture of what the field station is like. This one is the next on the list in terms of the most crowded mill that most needs to be overhauled, but rebuilt. Internally have those conversations as sort of an ongoing project with the cookie cutter thing, and we take the, We evaluate which ones are in the worst need, so that's why Shaftsbury is behind Rutland, is it's not as far gone as the Rutland Building is. Dan and I, along with our directors, we have consistently over the last four years prioritized the Special Teams Building ahead of state police barracks because that is the most we have. And then these field stations are prioritized internally by us. And then we elevate that through the agency of administration to the governor's office. And where that sugar's out in the big list across the entire state enterprise, I don't know how that magic happens.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But if you want It happens on the 5th Floor. I'm sure it does. And if you want

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: to know more about why the Rutland Jane Station needs to be replaced, this is your map.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: That's fine. That's the answer. I assumed it, but I didn't want to ask.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It all comes from the governor. When the governor presents his budget, that's the governor's priorities. And so our budget adjustment, those are the governor's priorities. Doesn't mean it's a legislative priority. And sometimes the governor's priority doesn't meet some of those department priorities that they have requested either. And then those folks come in and testify to us, and then we balance. James?

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Not to get too sidetracked on this, because it's a good question we ask ourselves every day, and one of our good friends, a colleague, and I have this conversation all the time, is, you know, it's easy to say, well, the governor's decision, but we also have a hand, right? So it's really more than just, it's a legislative, it's the administration, it's people inside of each department and agency. So it's not really as cookie cutter. We all like to have cookie cutter, who makes the answers, one of our colleagues, and I'll tell you who it is later. We talk about this all the time, we're always, no matter how much higher in this process you get, you're like, the next room I walk into is going to be the geniuses make all the decisions.

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: But what I want, like the reason I'm saying this in front of everybody instead of just having a private conversation, there is no next room. We don't have massive egos. We don't always remember. We are the people who are making this decision as a collective. So, we're all part of To answer your question, it's like, makes these decisions? We all do.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Okay. So then, I'll stop after this.

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I complicated it, but I tried to make it easy.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah. I understand. So the 5th Floor has got a ten year plan. Perhaps.

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: Is that a good assumption?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Perhaps. We don't I don't think so. There is

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: a ten year plan.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: There's a ten year plan that when World. Yes. But it also it's in the capital book. And we are asked to put every when the request goes out, we are asked to put a ten year plan together.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's for BGS, though, buildings.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: That's for everybody.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: For the whole capital bill?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. It's incident. Yes. It's on the paperwork that goes out as a ten year plan. Now there's plenty out there that don't need

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Like ten year A and R with your water and sewer. You're not involved in any of that. That's the buildings that you're

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Right. But yes, so we lay out what our tenure should be looking. Because without that, we all have our focus, and we're intent on taking care of our business.

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: But if you don't look

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: at the big picture, so that's the answer. I got it. I'll stop.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: Shawn? Sorry about that. It's not

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: specific in this project, but if you look at the real dollars that are committed to the two year capital budgets or the capital budget as a percentage of the state budget, they're both severely diminished. So assuming we had a we don't know what we're gonna have for the next biennium. But if you look at trends from previous bienniums and the fact that they were increasingly reliant on the cash fund, which we have no control over, whether or not it's taken from us or the whole other part, it puts a serious strain on what we can fund. So just what we saw this morning, this presentation and the exhibition in Mass, if it were this year's capital, the two year plan, could take up a third of the available money before you get to anything else.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's what would end. That's what counts. And we don't know what and that bonding amount is up to the debt affordability committee to make a recommend based on a lot of factors. It could be decreased again. It could be increased. I mean, I've seen a capital budget with 90,000,000 for one year. I've seen a capital budget for 30,000,000 for one year.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: And it

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: goes like this. You make the best decision you can with the information you have at that point in time, knowing when you come back in six or eight months is gonna be different. And it could be different from January to April because we've seen that too. We've gone in one direction at the beginning of the session, and issues or something have evolved and come April or May, we're in a very different place. The legislative work is very fluid. And we make the best decisions we can with the information at the time. We know what those big projects are coming down the pike. We know that. And that's what we have to balance. And that's why, like with the juvenile center, the decision was made to do a design build instead of us building the building to take the pressure off the capital. Now is it the

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: right way to go or not?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Just hope. That's a decision to spread. Now when people talk about school construction, they think the capital bill's gonna take care of $102,100,000,000 dollars a year. I don't I think people are dreaming.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: My point is there's no one person. It's just not. Oh, I understand that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else on the clearance? Don't call it the right one. Okay. This one we started working on a few years ago. We were gonna do a design build. Last year, was kinda put on hold and percolating out there.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: You're correct, madam chair, that several years ago, we did look at the need for this. Part of the reason was the fact that Williston did not get the marine division garage. And at the same time, I think it was mid COVID is USAR hazmat moved from the place of Milton down to the Colchester lot. You know? And that that was a a money saving move. Not sure how I don't think at the time anybody was looking at whether it was long term or not. But as the commissioner said, you go in there and they do nicely stack all their equipment. But it's a chessboard that you have to work on to get things out of there. And it is difficult. So we we originally looked at it and said, yeah, this is going to be expensive and time consuming. And so then we went to build to suit. And we asked for funds in in '24 and then '25. It was the option that we were looking at. And what we were looking at is a lease that was gonna be close to $2,000,000 a year that was gonna go for maybe twenty years. And at the end of that lease, there's certainly the option to buy. But that in a in a lease situation, it's not here in the capital bill. It goes to the general fund through the organization, through the agency or department. So that would be a big hit on that. We tried multiple options. The plan that I have up here takes into account everybody that we were looking to put into a building. But because of that high lease rate, it wasn't affordable. So we said, what if we carved off fire safety? What if we carved off hazmat? Went from a $1,314,000,000 dollar building down to like 12. It really did make a big dent in the change. And so and that was only for construction costs. Total project cost was, let's say, closer to 17, what they were looking at. But again, was a lease. So it was a monthly cost that we were looking at with public safety, whether or not they could afford it and how can we then afford it. Once we're down to just basically looking at the I think at the time, was just used there. It just isn't going to work. So then we have regrouped a little bit and what we're putting together is, as the commissioner stated, what can we do for all of these people who need storage? It's critical storage. So like in the Marine Division, in the winter, it's four wheelers and snow machines and whatnot, then in the air, switching in seasons, going to boats and whatnot. Several of them, boats are even used in the winter. The ice doesn't Champlain and all doesn't freeze over. Please feel free

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: to jump in. You're doing great.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: During years, I've been here. That's how long we've

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: been trying to do this. So he knows this.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: So it's what can you do? So now we're back at looking at, again, is, excuse me, as the commission stated, can we build back on the new Williston site to put the marine division that was originally fought there in that cost? Same with the old Williston Barracks. It's the skin of the building is shocked. It's what? It's it's it's shocked. I mean, we've had windows literally fall out. The siding's warping and falling off and whatnot. There's rust going on in the metal part of the building. But could you take that down to the red iron and reutilize it? And at one point in time, we weren't thinking highly of that because one, the Wilson, town of Wilson was looking to first refuel and we were looking to sell the property. They said no. So then it was like, well, should we reevaluate it to use for somebody else? And I think when I was here earlier in the year, Ed mentioned that I'd seen a proposal for somebody putting a light in, that would help out. They said, Well, we're actually because they had wanted to get exit from the backside of the mall, and then get it over to across the street there. Doing that, if that was to go forward, we would then be exiting our property onto the side street, if you like, which would help alleviate any left turns coming out of it. So that would be a good possibility. So we have to look into that. That still leaves whether or not I and I have not looked at it to so say whether or not both USA or hazmat and fire safety could fit in there. I don't believe the property is large enough for all of them to fit there. So then it's how do we parse this out and what works best? And that's with this additional you know, with the funding that we have in hand and the additional funding needs to go out. And, again, have the discussion with public safety because from the time we originally looked at it, things may have changed. New equipment may be there, but it's really about who how do we divide this? Can it be divided? And if so, distance around, is this Chittenden County? Is it further? I mean, the marine division, I do know, wants to be in the Chittenden County area because a lot of their stuff is with Lake Shia planning like Quebec.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: Well, to that point, the urban search and rescue team has 90% of its, the part time temporary employees who get activated when we have a response, 90% are in the Chittenden County area. So we've had the discussion and tossed it around of, could we relocate to Central Vermont, etcetera, but it logistically wouldn't work for the people who have to go retrieve the rigs and get on the way to a response. A compelling reason to keep it in that general area, but also both of these, more so the old Williston Barracks, interstate's right there, US Route 2 is right there. It's easy to get to where you need to go. The fort, not too bad, not as close to 89, but it's there, it's a

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: couple miles down the road.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: So the location does matter in terms of facilitating timely response to the places that this type of equipment and personnel need to

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: get to. Yeah.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Of course, a nightmare most times. So getting out to the in North Carolina's top.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: To me. And I do business in Chittenden County.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Conor? Yeah. Sure. So just following up on that more for public safety then, Joe. Are you somebody like partnerships with other states? Because this is probably one of a kind equipment in the state of Vermont. Right? And you probably get no notice in some of these situations. If there's something in Bennington that needs to happen now, talk at the likes of Massachusetts or New York?

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: So, well, yes, we can if our resources are exceeded. But we do also have, in the instance of say, swift water response, we have agreements with fire departments that keep trained personnel or are members of the team. And we keep little bits of equipment here and there around the state. So it's not all in one So there is the ability to have that first line response and then bring the rest of the category behind it. But yes, there are mutually responses with all states.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Great,

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: thanks very much.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: So where does the you have

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: a big vehicle for hazmat, I would assume. So that and that would be stored. What about the vehicle you use for crime investigation? Would that be stored as well? Or is that

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: It's at New Wilson now.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's at the New Williston. So this is to go out and because there's a request here for how much 500,000 to augment the 1,100,000.0 that you already have. And the thinking would be you could figure out, do we use the old barracks? It's not large enough. Do we augment that with another site? We do one full site somewhere. And what you have available is 1,400,000 that could go into design documents.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Process or maybe it's to purchase land. Purchase. You

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: does the previous language have authority to purchase land? Or you're gonna have to have that added to this?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Probably have to add that added to it. Because at the time, we were looking just to sell the property off, and we had language for that. If we kept the property, probably what we're thinking now, we'll keep you at Williston. So but I don't know if we have to buy land for something else. So They're gonna have

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: to buy land. That is

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: correct. James.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: So the the property now

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: and you probably said this last year, Cam, if it's not big enough for all of the entities, is there room on the backside, for example, front side to add on to make it

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: big enough for all the

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: the entities to be in one spot? Or is that just so they know under

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: There there is room for an addition on the property that we own. How it would look because I gotta still I'd have to look at the structure. There can be an addition. And I don't know those zoning setbacks and like that. So that yeah. That is also, excuse me, part of that program that we had to put together is, you know, it's like, if we're looking at use our hazmat, two trucks don't fit. Well, yeah, we would do the addition. Again, there is room

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: for that. So my second

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: And acknowledging that you've already acknowledged that the crystal ball is

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: is broken.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: It doesn't seem like there's really a lot of potential buyers, I mean, two entities that including the city or town, whatever it was in the worst.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Okay.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Don't seem to be that interested. So what will we be doing? Or is there any or would it just sit there? Like, I mean, I don't know.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. Women's reentry. Sorry. Throw that one out there.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: I know why I have an affinity for this place. I just think that it's probably the best place we should be looking for some strange reason. At the time,

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: when we asked for authority to sell, it's because everything was moving up the road. Yeah. And it did not Wilson still had their option, and they said no. And we've paused. We're not actively seeking people to focus the property because we may have a useful. Right now, it is still temporarily being used. Right. Those are the things we

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: have to weigh, and it changes from year to year. It

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: just seem like, I'm looking at it, you know, on Google Maps.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: It seems like it's that's enough space

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: for it it seems like it could fit there. I I have not

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: laid it out. It it it may, but I don't know.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Because that's the most brilliant place to put it.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: It is. But what you're also considering, like, the planets here in front of you was nice because of the layout of the property. You had drive through bays. Right. But then there. And so what does that do? If you go to the Colchester site right now, you could be moving three, four pieces of equipment to get to the one that you need. And then you're backing in, jockeying things around. So that's also a consideration is the square footage might be there, but can you make it work? Right. Even when public safety was used in the building and you looked at the garage park that was on the eastern side of the building, they double, triple parked the stuff. If you needed to get something else, you gotta move something out of the way to get to what's needed.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. But you're pulling this out sometimes during an emergency.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: So but that's part the program.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Make Champlain.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yep.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Seconds matter.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Yep.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you gotta move vehicles? Yeah.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: I get it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's what we weigh. That's why we're two years into this, and it's changed. It's changed. So you're gonna need language to give you authority to buy property. Scott's taking care of that. And we need to look at previous language in terms of the authority to sell Williston property for that too. Because right now, you have the authority to sell.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: That is correct. Mhmm.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else? So you'll be going out looking for land, looking at this one a little bit more, get in and possibly

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: It's programming first. We gotta get a better understanding of exactly what their needs are today and for the near future. And then start playing around with the existing site to see whether or not it can fit. Representative will state, you look at it and it looks like it's going to fit. But then it's like, How do you store the material? And so you draw that box, rectangle, whatever, start placing those pieces in there, and you go, How does it work? Do they both sides gotta leave at the same time? Stuff like that. And then what that cost would be also. Anything

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: else? Work in progress. Anything else you folks want to weigh in on? Because I know we've got

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: No, ma'am. I appreciate you taking the time and your thoughtfulness and all of your discussions.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Thank you. Thanks, Appreciate it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So keep going. We're gonna shift back to the transition.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Barracks. Yeah.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: And, like, you're fitting that I

[Unknown committee member]: think, and you'd have to take that down. But you could put that building right there, and it would have to,

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: you know I see. Yeah.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: It's like To me, it's like, that's where you go. And you can make the changes

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: on the

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: design a little stays on. You can never realize at least for for me, you're preaching to me. Yeah. I mean, it's like this is the the only it's already a statement saying gonna need to

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: that out

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: put down and build a new one there.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: But yeah. Yeah. I was

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: gonna make the joke online. That's it's a gun.

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: It's a gun. It's

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: It's a fake. But I sometimes. You know, place up here that they can't even get to

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: or whatever. It's ridiculous. This is easy because everyone gets to it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: All.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Different sales people will say, like, one in six is like, all in all in

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: the election. What you've

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: got is all that say, alright,

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: we'll kick it out of the person.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Ever hear me speak in public, he's committed. Yeah, it's always we have

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: that idea of kicking the game. The vibe is at some point in your facility

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: as comfortable as it is we're gonna have to fight the bullet Right now, mean

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Man, I don't wanna be on this committee. For years. Price tags and this stuff coming out.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: At least design We we

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: are still That's my real leg.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: But I can say it's It's it's it is. And that's the thing, like, in this I can't imagine building this place.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: It's that expensive. It's just pretty much. It's like storage. So It's gotta

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: be And in comparison It's gonna be Obviously, they've taken the skin off.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Many storage

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: is they're like Whatever women

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: are gonna

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: be doing.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Field, whatever. I

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: mean, these need to be heated? I don't Yeah.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: Okay.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: We're all live.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah, we're still alive.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: We were live. Okay,

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: we're shifting gears. We're still on the Capital Bill one, three. We are on Section 16, a historical society, which is it is not a state owned building, but it houses a lot of state history. And it is where our center is between the historical society and the archives. That's where you really have the history of Vermont stored and accessible to the public. Last year, there was an appropriation of 700,000 for the building basically seeping in water. And we were dealing with that. And this one is climate control. So welcome, Steve.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Thank you. If you

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: could identify yourself for the record.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Absolutely. Thank you all for having me. Steven Perkins. I'm the executive director of the Vermont Historical Society. One thing the chair already highlighted, the Vermont Historical Society was created by active legislature, and we are one of the repositories for Vermont. And I actually brought some goodies to share with you a little bit later as an example of the type of critical, very important Vermont items, artifacts, and documents that are stored by historical society. So thank you, last year. I think we had a hot five minutes to talk last year. I'm also going to we'll talk about what's in the governor's proposed language first. That's pretty straightforward, and then I'd be happy to also give you an update on the water mitigation project that is ongoing. So that is my my introduction. So what's in the proposal here? And I'm thankful that it got moved up. It was proposed for next year's round, and it's important that this be replaced. That's the last piece of our HVAC equipment at the historical society that needs to be upgraded. As I think you all know, most major systems now have about a twenty five year lifespan on them, and all of the equipment was new back in 2000 or actually 1999. And so through federal funding, through private funding, and through funding through the state, we've updated all of the HVAC equipment except for this unit. It's called a Munters unit, similar to how we used to call photocopier Xeroxes. The name of the company has become synonymous with the unit. It is a highly specialized piece of archival climate control. It controls temperature and humidity at the same time in a complex way. That's the best I can describe without getting an engineer in here to talk to you about it. And that is a picture of said unit. I don't know how else to represent the unit to you, but there it is. It sits behind the building, and it services the vault, which or what we call the vault. Very funny aside on why we call it the vault. When we were 100% located in the Pavilion Building, you may not know, but in the basement of that building is a big old vault, lockable, sealable vault. That's where we stored all this stuff. Of course, it flooded in '92, and we that's why we are in Barrie now, which is above the floodplain. And so this unit services that vault. What's in the vault? Again, not the best photographs that I can take here. It's compressible storage, and it stores our most sensitive and critical documents and artifacts. It also holds the most sensitive and critical archives held by the Vermont State Library or the State of Vermont Library, which is also located in that building. So you can see the tracks on the floor. It's compressible storage. You can see various types of materials in the photographs there. Some other materials here, you can see the Coolidge family papers. We have a large collection of the papers of President Coolidge and his family, and then a small selection of our film archives. So these are very early films and audio of of Vermont. Again, very sensitive materials that need a a climate a specific climate too.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Any of these actively used? Are they simply stored?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Is there value? They are actively used. Researchers use them on a regular basis, and we do lend some of them on a regular basis. And I think that's a difference between the archives we hold and state archives. They don't have the ability to lend. We have the ability to lend these to other educational institutions and museums. Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Alright.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: And those films, have they been digitized at all? Some of them have.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Okay. Is there an ongoing project? As funding allows. Yep. Yep. There's some foundations, one local in Stowe that funds the digitization of a film a year. So at least one film a year is is done. Many more You can be That's just one piece of the archive as well. We could spend millions in film digitization.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Really?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Yes. Yeah. So it's fun, and we have a dedicated media media room in our library. So I know last year, we were planning a field trip to the history center. Maybe we can do that again.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: That would be great.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: In the future, you can see all this in person. And so that film viewing room with trained volunteers will allow members of the public to come in and view some of these in their original format if they have not been digitized. And for some folks, if they're doing research, they may just film it. You know, we'll project it on a screen forum, they'll film it with their phone, be able to use it. You can find some of our digitized films on our website, providehistory.org, spend an afternoon watching them. You

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: get a lot of visitors in the historical society?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: So the museum sees about 15,000 to 20,000 visitors a year. That's here, less in the facility in Barrie. I think when we moved there in 2000, we were seeing a lot more visitors. So certainly under 10,000 visitors a year to use things on-site. But our requests for information online, people who are outside of the ability to travel physically to bury, it just goes up and up and up every year. So we're we're just as busy using these artifacts to serve people. But the the main point of this storage facility is preservation, storage and preserve safe storage and preservation. I had listed a few highlights of things that were that are in this collection. And this is just a very small small selection just to kind of highlight what what we do house here. The James Whitelaw collection. James Whitelaw was the first surveyor general of the or the second excuse me. Second surveyor general of the state of Vermont. The first professional surveyor general. The first was Ira Allen, and we kind of know what he did with surveying around the state. Whitelaw was a trained surveyor, Scottish surveyor. And so we have his diaries, his papers, preliminary maps, lotting books, you name it, of of the of Vermont. Vermont Romance was the first motion picture ever filmed in Vermont. We have the original imprint of that. That is digitized. You can watch that online. As I said, lots of early Vermont films, many, many oral histories, personal papers. So Matthew Lyon, Justin Worrell, Dean Davis, Percival Clement, Ralph Landers, Peter Smith, Stephen Rowe Bradley. You can just keep naming prominent Vermonters. Most of their personal papers end up with us. If they were a state, their state papers would end up at archives, but their personal papers have to go somewhere as well, and those would come to us.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You know that there is a full library of Ralph Flanders at his home Yeah. Springfield? And every time that house turns ownership, they don't touch the library. But it's his senatorial library.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Interesting.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And it has everything. It's privately owned, the house, and it's where senator Franklin lived. And he had his senatorial office above his the garage. Has all of his documents, has everything there, and nobody knows what to do with put

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: him in touch with us. I mean, it's just the kind of material that we handle.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And it's good material.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: As best we can. I mean, know, there's limitations in in storage. So if it's bound printed matter that duplicates other brown bound printed matter, we

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: may not take it. But That's Nice.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: So if you know the owner, put me in touch.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: I do.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Happy to to chat with them. Well, I mean, I I I sent the document. You can you can, you know, read what's in here from photographs to, you know, papers and you name it. I brought a few items with me because it's really hard to see on screen what we protect. This artifact here, I'm happy to pass it around. Just please don't spill any water on it or anything. Be careful, Will. I'll be careful.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Yes. Yes.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: This is what is commonly referred to as a slave narrative, and it's a printed book, and it's been fully conserved. So you can open it up and take a look at it. And because they're library materials, researchers do come and use these. There's only one of two from Jeffrey Brace, was a Vermonter, died in Saint Albans. He was kidnapped from Africa as a teenager, sold into slavery, was enslaved. He was an enslaved soldier during the French and Indian War. He served in the US Navy during the revolution, which gave him his freedom. He moved to Vermont. He lived in Southern Vermont around the time of Bultney, and then ultimately moved to Georgia, Vermont. He died in Saint Albans, he had an amazing life. And he dictated his life story to a man the last name is Apprentice, who published this book. It's one of the earliest slave narratives. There's only two in the world of this printing left, and we have one here at the Vermont Historical Society. So that's the type of of thing. I'll pass this the other way. And I was gonna make the offer. If you have a break after my testimony, you wanna look at more about a whole box. This is a group of documents that relate to the Vermont Republic or pre Vermont Republic, so 1775 to 1791. And so we were here in the State House a few weeks ago, and we had a a signed document from Thomas Jefferson, which was conveyed to the state of Vermont, letting us know we've been admitted to the union as the fourteenth state. To be admitted to the union of the fourteenth state, Vermont, the Republic, had to meet in convention and accept the US constitution. This is the document signed by the members of the convention accepting the United States constitution on behalf of the Republican law. So that that that is in plastic. And so please keep it in the plastic, but you're welcome to take a look at it and attach it.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Exceptions? No exceptions.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: But

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: we we can can talk a lot about Vermont history. It was fairly unanimous. Vermont wanted to be part of the by by that point, wanted to be part of the union. So that rounds out my discussion of the Munters units. The Munters unit provides provides climate control to that. There's the machine and and installation. Basically, that's the cost.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So what is hang on. What is there? There's an actual numbers of 566,724.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Isn't that great?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Is that what you have gotten back is what it would cost or is that

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: That was the estimate provided to us and we did just update it and it still holds.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Correct. Okay.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: And how long is delivery on that?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: About twenty, twenty five weeks. Yeah. They are in country, though. That's what we just found out.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: In what?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: In country. There's a u there are units in country. If they weren't because they're not made here. They're made in Germany.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The tariffs?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Tariffs too.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: The tariff.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Yeah. But there are there are some units, so we can reserve one. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: would that incorporate the possible increase for the tariffs?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: It does not. Does we

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: don't know if there will be tariffs added on or not.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: There are units in country, so we can reserve one in country.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is amazing.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: It says Martin Chittenden signature too. He must have not been very old.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Sorry.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: was a riots federalist governing. The party

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: that can simply go get Joe Moore on history.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's really interesting. Got to see this. Any officers are punished with whipping. Any offenses are

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: punished.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Don't give

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: me any ideas, chair. I can say that's

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: what we can do. Some of these artifacts will be in an exhibit that we're mounting this year for the two fiftieth of the country and the two fiftieth of Jamaal Republic, which, of course, is in 2027, called 50 for two fifty, and that's 50 iconic artifacts from our collection. That slave narrative is one of the artifacts, and there's a scholar who actually studied at UVM. She finished her dissertation in Wisconsin and has written a book on him, and she's writing the essay on that for our exhibit and book project.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I was just opening it up on what I read. It's just kind of

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah. Just a few lines, can't you?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Just a little. Just a little. And people are just interested in that. It should take kids to see it.

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: This is a first.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: You know anything about the fold lines on this, like where it would have been?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: I don't know. I don't know. Most of

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Who would they have signed it? Where would they have been?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: I believe they're in Bennington. Says at the top.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Not Windsor, but Bennington. Those

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: people. They altered Yeah. Vermont was separated east and west ideologically, and so they alternated where they would meet. So they'd either meet in convention at Windsor or they'd meet in convention in Bennington, and it moved back and forth on a fairly regular basis.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The importance of the monument and of other That's an

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: issue, Mary. Remind me which side, I always get it confused. Was it the East side of the mountains where the, like, where the loyalists were during the revolution and the Western side?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: We're not gonna go.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Oh, we're not gonna go on that. And I just wanted to clarify. Yep. But they alternated governor.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Yeah. Yeah. The mountain rule the mountain rule stayed into effect until the nineteen thirties. And on the federal side of things, it stayed into effect until late he was elected in '73.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: And

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Steven That was a big to do because he he took at the eastern seat.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And Steven knows how important Bennington is because he was the head of our museum for a number of years before he came to this position, and we hated to lose him.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: That's an original book. I

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: mean, an original It's

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: sobering to pick it up and

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: just open and read something. Like

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: If you were to read

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: the whole thing, can buy a commercial Like I said, there was an author, I'm sorry, I forgot her name, who did her dissertation on Jeffrey Brace. And so she produced a book. The first half of it is an analysis in kind of modern language of what he wrote. And then the second half of the book is just a transcription so you can read it in a modern book. It's a hard read.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's a hard read. Just the paragraph or two I read, it's like

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: In ladies' race, it would have been broken anyway. Right?

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: This is opponents from the West too. Fred Haggard, so it wouldn't have broken. But everyone's working. Or the Republican. A lady could think of really bad Republican primary, it's like a Nixon.

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: The rest of history.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Like, I just won my $566,000.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: I this is this is this is really needed. We we were working with federal funding on on the replacement of this, and it's a grant for that that was through the the Department of Energy, and so those aren't available anymore. And it is at life's end. The the unit is working, so I wanna say it is working. The problem is you can't get parts for it anymore. Wow.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: And the thing about history is once it's gone, it's gone. So you gotta protect it.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Shall I move on to the pictures of the other stuff?

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Sure.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: Well, want some.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Yep. Oh, I had some other pictures of things. That's the only known photograph of the 2nd State House. It's a daguerreotype, the Vermont Historical Society. And then the large box on the other side is the Chamber Of Atlas. So it was a British naval officer who mapped and charted Lake Champlain in the seventeen fifties. That's a hand drawn atlas with descriptions on each page telling you how to navigate Lake Champlain. So the water mitigation update. So this was money that was appropriated through the capital bill last year, for, water issues that were exacerbated by the flooding in '23 and '24 on this old building. The Spaulding High was the Spaulding High School, the Spaulding grade graded school. It was built in 1892, added on to in 1914, and served as the Ferry High School until 1964. And then it was the middle school for the city of Ferry until 1995. Historical Society moved in at the grand cost of a dollar and through about $15,000,000 in late nineteen nineties money, renovated and updated the building into the Vermont History Center, houses the Vermont Historical Society, our collections, our library, also houses the state library and the state department of libraries. It also houses the state archaeologist and the collections of the state archaeologist with ACCD. We had water issues coming infiltrating into the basement of the old section of the building, the 1892 section of the building. We had water infiltration through the brick sheathing and a little bit of water infiltration through the roof. And so those are the areas that we have addressed at this point. We mobilized for construction in November. This is a scaffolding going up for the brickwork on the front of the building. We started trenching the back. So the first work that we did was on the foundation of the building and the project scope was, I'm gonna call it the back and the front, that's easier than cardinal directions because it doesn't sit perfectly to cardinal directions. This is the back of the building. You can see the trenching starting there. This was a very difficult excavation of the foundation. If you know our property, it's not at the top of the hill, it's on the side of the hill. So the top of the hill is right to your left there, which is part of the water problems because the water rolls down that hill and runs right into the back of the building. And so you can see he's got a very small excavator. We could only go down so far because of human safety, because of bank collapsible and whatnot, but they did a good job. And also, all of the utilities for HVAC and electric come into the building. You can see them starting to uncover some of those pipes there. This is on the front, give you a sense of the foundation. It is it's a rough granite foundation on the building. In the late nineties, when the first renovation was being done, they did put a spray sealant on it, and that's that red stuff you see there and some kind of screening that held it hold it on. That appears to have failed, which was part of the water problem. And then these drain pipes that we're starting to uncover that run around the footings, those drain pipes, Some of them were full of mud, and that probably happened during the twenty three floods because of the hydraulic pressure that was coming back up the hill through the stormwater system in Barrie. So we didn't have aerial flooding because we're up on a hill, but the stormwater system couldn't take our water and stuff started back up and it became full. We had to go pretty deep, a little deeper than we thought to get to some of this is just a sense with a human being as to how far down foundation work we went. There's some examples. This is the drainage piping. So we were able to clean the majority of it, which was great, and we replaced that which we wouldn't clean. And the best news was they were able to remotely clean the drainage on either side of the building. So we don't have to dig up the two sides, only the front and the back at this point. That's a picture of a cut open, and that's disturbed from excavation, but you can see the congealed mud that had filled the drainage system. Rather than going with a spray application, we went with a EPDM, which is rubber roof attached almost like, say, like shingles to the foundation and then backfilling. And so if it's the back of the building, front of the building, just to kinda give you a sense. In the back of the building, we cleaned out the bottom drains, but as they filled it in, they added a secondary French drain, and then gravel and a material called foldable fill that'll the waters will drain through and also train change the drain direction in the back. I don't how much information you really want, but I think it's fascinating as a amateur at this. It used to to drain two ways from the back. They found that the way that the hill slope, the engineers looked at it, that if they built up the flowable fill, that if it all drained in one direction, it's just gonna be much better for the overall system. So that was an added bonus that we weren't anticipating. Here we are, Philip filling it back in. So the the foundation work has all been completed to date. So decorative gravel. The next step was to get the roofing done and mobilizing masonry. This is a view of the facility that people see most people see as they enter Barrie. So it was a gray day, and we had a lot of folks in the community that were worried, and so some good press about the work that was being done on the building. No, it wasn't catastrophic. We're taking care of issues before it becomes catastrophic. So you can see the roofers. They did the the project was scoped to about two thirds of the roof on the original building. The roof on the 1914 edition, we did with private funds a few years ago. So the bulk of the roof is now, taken care of. I just thought it was interesting showing how they're working specifically on the cupola, way up high. And so the cupola has been completely covered. Where about my time here? And then this is area behind the turrets of the building. It's a gorgeous Richardsonian Romanesque building, which means it has lots of crenellations and turrets, and those are all places to catch water. Anyone who works on roofs or masonry, they like to look at them. They don't like to work on them. So yeah. A lot of flashing. They were able to reuse all the copper flashing. It was smoothly thick enough, and so they reflashed. The biggest thing is that, apparently in the late nineties when the roof when this portion of the roof was put on to kind of save the roof, they did it quickly. They used consumer level files, ice guard, water guard wasn't put there, just put shingles down. So these it's now you can see they put down ice guard, they put down water underlayment and commercial shingles. The last little piece is there's a flat roof over the middle of the building. You can't see this from anywhere except from a helicopter. And an open air vestibule in the building was covered over at one point and turned into a skylight, and then the skylight was roofed over. So we all know those things fail all the time, and, of course, that's where we're having leaking. So that roof that went over where the skylight was, that flat roof was redone. So you can see it. It's all the way down to the below the roof decking, and then new decking, new insulation was put on, resealed into all the drains, drains reworked. I don't have a picture of the rubber roof because they were going really fast because they got the EPDM down right before it started snowing. So the roofing is is done as well. Last piece is masonry. They're working inside of heated scaffolding right now. Power to them.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. Really?

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: This building, I guess I knew it in my heart of hearts, but it was interesting to say, it's not a masonry building. So this is not a a brick building. This is a wood frame building that is sheathed in one layer of bricks. The bricks are and that's just a good picture. That's one brick removed, and you can see the sheathing. There's an air gap between the bricks and the sheathing, which is the way they did it. And then the bricks the courses of bricks are secured to that sheathing with a fastener, and the fastener from 1892 was an iron nail or an iron spike. And so here are some images of of the the bricks failing. I'm gonna say, this probably has not been worked on since 1892, so it it's it's done really well. It's indicative of the the older part of the building that you could just

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: see losses in bricks, and you

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: can see, you know, where it's separating around the the towers here. And so the masons are dealing with the very front facade of the building. So we do have these issues on other sides of the buildings, but this is this is the most critical part. Way up at the tiffy top where they had the decorative brickwork, they just they just had to take it all down. And then as they work their way down, you can see them removing failing bricks. The whole building has a preservation easement on it, so everything has to be approved through the trust. And so preservation bricks, preservation mortar, all the chemistry has to match eighteen ninety two for the mortar. And then on this picture on

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: the left, you can see a few

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: of the iron nails sticking out that would have been used at each course to help hold it in. Most of them have rusted in there. So they're putting in stainless steel anchors as they work their way down. And then I think this is my last slide. Here's some of the wet mortar. They're now starting to repoint and relay bricks. And so it hasn't dried yet, that's why it's darker. But that's the progress. They probably have another three weeks to go on this portion of the project. And I remember what the general contractor told me. And then they'll be back in April because we have to do landscaping. We gotta fix the lawn. We gotta fix the gardens that that were all dug up. And then the masons are gonna do repair work on the towers on either side of the entrance, and that will take care of the project. So far, the project is on budget.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Oh, wow.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: I see that fast enough. It's on budget. Interesting. And it's on it's on budget. Yep. We've been very happy with this general contractor. They've done a couple of projects for us, and they've always been on budget.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Hang on. That's really terrific. Yeah. And it was really nice. It was good that you brought in some items.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah. It was very Thank you.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Happy to. And, again, I extend the invitation to the committee as a group or individually. Please come visit the history center. I'm happy to walk you through, and we can dig through any of the stuff that you want to.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Our time frees up more like in April. I was going to say a spring Anything trip would be else? Thank you, Steve.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Thanks, Steve. Thanks so much for having

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: me. You've done a great job. Thank you. And you got more than five minutes.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: It's

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: kind of a rush. Thank you.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: And

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: we don't often see money in the capital bill go down to the actual amount. Usually it's rounded up or rounded down or something.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Our finance director submitted the actual estimate to the capital bill folks and they put in the

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: actual fact.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Isn't that amazing? Thank you. So we do have it is Mental Health Advocacy Day. And we do have some folks here. There was someone, Richard Vails, Rutland City we have down, but that's not he's online? Oh, there he is. Okay. So Richard is here. I'm not sure how you folks Richard, are you the one that's starting this or this we have some folks here in the in the room. You're not here to listen? Yeah. Okay. So, Richard, welcome. You're on Zoom. And we have a few minutes. And please feel free to share with us. Thank you, Steve. To share with us any thoughts or concerns you want to share. And if you could just identify yourself for the record before you start.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: I'm a retired lieutenant from the Marvin Valley View Marvin Valley, Preston, Minnesota. I worked about sixteen years between Woodstock and Rutland. And the hours, like, to have now are much better. But sometimes, they also have to work sixteen hours. Was hard on the bottom. I know I've seen a month of that street when I worked out a wood slot for the next first time. And the problem is is that slab so no tongue is zero when they do the. And they also get too close with the inmate, which causes officer to do things that you would not normally do. It's a subculture. And that's the you spend more time speaking for the event than you do. And then I understand that is her shortstop. You have to hire more officers, but I know it's hard to get off. However, being a reporter to the tenant and walking the units of West Coast, saw a lot of them. But outside of Mount Vernon, there are two people one person at the desk and three people in the unit. Now there's only one person that's standing full unit that I've been told by because it's so slow. And they close a bill with a so far, and the officer only goes in the uncharged whenever he's able to. Now he would tell the tenant it's very dangerous situation now. Because I know you threw a lot of money at. But the attention is there has to keep due to the fact that overtime. Yes. It's good for the family, but they also untall when they need to on the days off. So you really don't the days off, they're telling about. The TV ads are great, but they're incorrect. Okay. I'm very sorry they said that. They're very incorrect. You're on call on your days off, and you get called in. So if you're getting less than that, you're what goes up. And I've talked to a lot of people about this. It's growing. It's very unsafe right now, and they have a lot more inmates than they're supposed to have. That facility was built to be built to hold 96 inmates. Now I understand that's over a 150 inmates there or more. That is a very dangerous situation with only six staff on and one do on one shift. That that facility could have 10 after, for sure. That's it. So you're looking at a very dangerous situation. I do know about the other facilities, and I hope they're post class, but I have not talked to anybody for any of the other stuff. But the exception of Springfield, and they're also having the same problem for us. They also get burned out quick, very quick, and you're having a good retention rate. I mean, the video on TV is nice. It's really correct. I just wanna let you know that. Because it's a subculture. You're somewhere you're locked into. You go you're closer to the inmate than you are to the slave. Okay? Which causes relationships between slave and inmate. So it's it's imperative that's it's harder, slab, at least for what on our other facility. And I know the job market is terrible, and that meant you wanna work in production. And it's more difficult now than what I worked at from nineteen ninety two to 2007. Then I attempted suicide because of severe working environment of getting bullied by slob and by inmate. Okay? Because I was doing my job. So four people that I know that are in corrections commit suicide. Okay? You have a suicide rate of forty percent higher in corrections than you do within the other workplace versus suicide. I don't know. I've heard those, like, two or three other people. I actually know five. One was on provision and for all, and one other one was us. So it's. I'm in for a personal life. So I did not know who had to, but I do know two other officers, one that would sought attempted suicide. It's a very dangerous situation. Come in and you're locked in to the wood dock, and that's the problem. Now the problem is inefficiency. The building well, it's hard, heavy. Assuming the teeth and not enough slab to fill the. And that is a problem. It's hard, heavy. And you need to get more slab. If you're trying to save money, you need to get many people that aren't doing what they're supposed to do to create the overhead. The problem is there's too many people in my and not enough people in the jails. Then I know you can get COVID to put a lot of money on

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: it. And

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: now it's very difficult.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I I really appreciate you giving us a perspective of what it's like to work in a facility. We've heard a lot of testimony on that. But with your firsthand knowledge, I find that really important. Other questions or anything from the committee members?

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Very helpful to hear that perspective.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Well, was just gonna say the same thing. Especially the mental health tolls that it takes on people to work in certain fields that are considerably higher than other places and people aren't aren't always able to put themselves in the the the mental state to to consider what other what the workplace is like for some people.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: Now I'm interested in going to the facility and talking to staff as a group and talk to them about suicidality, the person, and anxiety that comes from the stress of a jail. And I would do that because it's very important for their mental health. But like I said, get locked in as well. Get a prisoner of that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else from the committee?

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Very thankful. Thanks very much, Richard. You, Rutland. We

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: do have some folks here. Are you part of the mental health advocacy group?

[Jennifer Morrison, Commissioner of Public Safety]: Yeah. Well, I'm in the urban.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. You're just sitting in. Great. Anything else? So, we are done a little early, which is good. A longer lunch. The repo, one thing that you might want to pay attention to, they did a reallocation of cash From the Rutland Field Station. Land and Design.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: 150.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The attention on that one, 250,000. Right line?

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: Yeah, 200.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: So we're

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: done for this morning, Richard. We're gonna finish up. So you're welcome to stay or else you can take yourself off of Zoom because we're finishing up.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Thank you so much for coming. Thank you.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: Thank you. You're welcome.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're back here at 01:00. We're gonna have Damian Leonard come in and walk us through the language that Department of Motor Vehicles recommended in the miscellaneous DMV bill that's over in Senate Transportation.

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Good afternoon. Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you. It deals with folks who are infestrated getting their real ID, non driver ID, their real ID, and their driver's license. We're gonna work on we're gonna work on

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: I'd like to say something beforehand. You can get you can get ahold of me, and I'll give you my phone number to help

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So if you could if you could send that to Tate, Mullen

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: Yep.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Or Tate can take an email you and get that information.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: Yeah.

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: Okay. RAsInRutlandRAsInRutlandFAsInFrankAAsInAppleLAsInLarryEAsInEchoSAsInSamJAsInJohnRAsInRichardAtAOLDotCom. Someone wants to be a hold of that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you.

[Steven Perkins, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society]: You have a

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: good day.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we're gonna go over that language and compare that to the bill that we have. Make sure I spoke to the chair of Senate Transportation. We're gonna work on the language. They will be having it today or tomorrow. Are going to have corrections in to talk about the proposed language over there. But what Richie Westman said to me, we work on the language. They can carry that language in the miscellaneous DMV bill, and we can also carry the language in our bill, which is five forty nine. So we'll figure this out, but Damian's gonna give us a walkthrough of what DMV proposes in language change. But we've got to make sure it works for DOC.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Can I just get a quick what's the benefit on doing it in two simultaneous bills like that? Or is it just

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Case one doesn't pass.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Yeah. Okay.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But we have to track it

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: because it's

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: in two places. It could

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: change stuff in So any committee

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: we're gonna have to track it. So if we do this, whoever reports this bill is going to be the one that has to really work hard to carry this through the Senate. It's going to be really important that the reporter, the bills on top of this. Kevin?

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: So the comment was we have two bills in case one of them doesn't process, we just have to the House bill of seven.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Doesn't pass, Joe, to the governor. Doesn't pass.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: So they vary that much that

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. They might. I mean, the DMV is a miscellaneous DMV bill that has a lot of things. That one usually passes. Five forty nine may not. Or it could be the other way around.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: I see. Stagnant. I understand.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So both bills, two different vehicles, are at the same language.

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: My granddogs have more than one hole. Good

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: analysis.

[Captain Mike Manley, Vermont State Police]: Ants, my groundhogs have.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So before we get any more squirrels, squirrely, it's time we finish up for the

[Richard Vails (Retired Corrections Lieutenant, Rutland City)]: morning.

[Unknown committee member (possibly Rep. William 'Will' Greer)]: You turn

[Joe Luneau, Director of Design & Construction (Buildings & General Services)]: up