Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Welcome, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is Friday, January 16. It's our 10:30, quarter after ten in the morning meeting. We have BGS with us to give us further updates in terms of our capital budget that we put in place last year in May. This is for FY '26, as well as maybe FY '27, but we can't get into any new capital bills proposals until after the governor is present state budget next Tuesday. So we have with us from BGS Joe Asia. And Joe, I'm gonna turn it over to you. We're gonna be doing the DOC portion, courthouse portion, and the vets home. And anything else that we might wanna bring up?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: That's fine. My voice is going. It has been now for over two weeks. So I'll

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Do you have

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: No. It's not a call. Oh. Thank you. I might need that all. Very good. So I'll do my best. If not, to rid of cash, my project manager. She's gonna step in for me to do the vets home and hope your voice also help that out.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Your voice lasts.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It does. It just squeaks a bit and whatnot. I'm gonna do have to repeat myself because it doesn't all come out. Okay.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We'll we'll do whatever you need, Joe.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Well, power for we're here for you. Thank you. You're welcome. So first up, section three, planning and design and construction for HVAC upgrades at the correctional facilities. There were four correctional facilities, Southern State, Northern State, Northeast Regional, and the Caledonia Work Camp. The Caledonia Work Camp and the Northeast Regional facility are basically on the same property, but they're two separate facilities. This project has been in the works since '23 when we first started getting design funds for it. What we have done is we put together two packages, a temporary relief area and then also a permanent. Right now, all the temporary units are in place or going into place as we speak. Southern Shade is done for temporary. Newport is done. Northeast Regional Caledonia work camp is being done right now. We're just completing the design development phase for the permanent air conditioning for the facilities. We've contracted with construction managers to help us out because of the layouts of the buildings How best to locate the equipment and how to run it throughout the facilities. As the money is appropriated, we will move forward with starting with Springfield, they go to Newport and then to St. Johnsbury. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: right now, the temporary ACs, that is for, like, break rooms and common areas. Is that where you've looked at? It's not the whole system of the whole building.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It is not. Is there's some break rooms like the Southern State. They have a work conference room inside of the pods that is being done down there in Newport. And so in Jonesboro, it's a gym in the library, I believe.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So are these places that both staff and vendors can access or is it going to stack? Both.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Just for both.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So the one the temporary ACs are in place and ready to go in Springfield and Newport this summer?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: In Southern State.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And then you're working on design documents for the new for the Saint Johnsbury and the work camp?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: For all three. For permanent.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: For permanent.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And permanent. Yes. And then the permanent one, is the design documents all completed for the permanent ones for Springfield and Newport?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: No. It will be completed soon, we expect to be out to bid with our construction manager for Springfield in April. Of this year? Yes.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Do you have you had nine you have about a million and and a half not quite a million and a half on unexpended. Is that gonna get you through this project?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I'm not sure until we actually get our prices in. Prices have been all over right now. Or we'll be seeking additional funding.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So there's half 1,000,000 that I mean, there's a million that we put in for f y twenty seven, just to give a committee heads up. We put in 4,000,000 in f y twenty six, And then there's what we put in was 1,000,000 in FY twenty seven.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Troy? If the funding is there for the permanent work, how long are we looking before that is completed in all facilities? I'm not sure. I don't think the permanent AC, though, will be ready for this summer. It depends on delivery of the units.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That would be for Springfield?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. When

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: would you go out to bid for Newport?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It depends on the amount of funding we receive.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And for Springfield, you go out to bid in April. Usually you might be able to start, if you got the equipment, you could start.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We will start the construction work in advance as soon as we can, as soon as the contract is on board ready to go. And when the unit arrives, we just slide that into place. So we should stay quickly up and running.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So would there be any opportunity for air conditioning by the end of this summer in the Springfield facility?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I don't know that for sure. Probably not in a nutshell.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Definitely next year.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just a follow-up if I missed it. Something temporary at least this summer in all of them?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. Springfield and Newport. Springfield, Newport. Sorry. Yes. And

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: those would be in the break rooms for the staff, and then in some areas in the living units.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: In Southern State, they're in the living units, and they have a core conference, training area, work room. In both Newport and in St. John's Berry there in either the gym or the library. So both staff and incarcerated individuals will be able to access it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: In Springfield, they have the big common room in the front building. There are a lot of meetings and visitation occurs when there's any function that goes on or presentations in the big room there in the administrative building. Is that gonna be air conditioned at all?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I don't know that one. Yes, sir.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That's where a lot of folks I mean, that's where a lot of things go on there. That's where the visitation is as well. Thanks.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Joe, I'm sure you said this, and I just didn't hear it. But on the line where it says Northwest greater than $16,000,000 is that saying that project's gonna for air conditioning, it's gonna be more than $16,000,000 That one we put the estimate together. It was $16,000,000 I'd say it's closer to 20 now. But that's just a wild guess. And that's high compared to the rest of the life? Yes, it is very high. Two thirds. Why? It's the age of the facility, how the existing utilities were run-in either tunnels and or the attic space. There's not a lot of room to get in there. Like in St. Johnsbury, the new facility, however, we have to take equipment and ductwork out to get the existing unit out and then we back up. The unit's got to be there to put in the unit and then we're going to have to then finish the ductwork. And so we work our way out of the attic space. Newport has larger attics, so we should be able to make that work. Okay. Thank you. Joe, what's the useful life of the new AC systems we're putting in? Twenty, thirty years? They last twenty plus years. I mean, there's not, like, two of them. They can prematurely fail after ten or fifteen years. They're certainly not robust as they were thirty years ago. But that's we're expecting the life expect is twenty years. Gotcha.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, at least there'll be a little bit of relief in some of the places. Don't have anyone from DOC here, but I'm just wondering how DOC's relaying this to folks at both Springfield and Newport, as well as St. Johnsbury facilities. Because what I've heard from folks who are in Springfield facility, I think the impression is they're gonna have AC this summer in the That was our goal. That's not throughout the whole facility. It's just in specific spots. Maybe that's a question when DOC comes in to see how they're relaying this to the staff because I think there's a misinterpretation right now going on because they think it's the whole facility. It's going to be AC Right. This summer. That's what I've picked up whenever I'm in there. And it is not gonna happen. So then we get everybody gets blamed again. Mhmm. It's my concern. Anything else on this? Okay. So we'll wait and see on the governor's recommend.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Next step is accessibility upgrades at correctional facilities. We had three facilities that were part of a settlement with the Department of Justice at Southern State, Northern State, and Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility. Most of the work is complete in Southern State. There's just some small items left out there that we have to finalize on. And same with Chittenden. There's probably maybe 80% of Chittenden is complete. So there's just some other stuff that we have to finish up and will be done. And we started at Northern State and that is expected to be done this fall. And we do have a deadline, which I think will be the July. This year. Newport, we're doing sidewalks on the outside, part of that would be the grass growing to making sure that it runs through their warranty through the likes of that. But the work that we should have in place should be usable by July 1. We also have an independent architect, providing oversight from counter justice. So they have been working with us and see what we've been doing. We have gotten one extension from them due to labor and not getting contractors. So we did seek in the oversight of the architect to no issues with us for the extension for the work that's being completed.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And that wouldn't violate the deadline of July twice of this year?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: No. That was extended to the July. It will be done.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And the 1.9 is gonna get you through? Perhaps. Perhaps.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It's well on its way.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So I have a question. I know it's not connected to accessibility upgrades. But while we're talking about upgrades, I wanna ask about the Wi Fi situation.

[Rena (AHS Project Manager)]: Does Rena Rena

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: is our A. H. S. Project manager. So she knows all about it, and that is not our project to begin with, just so you know. And anything else, Sabrina, is more personal. Well That was what I was gonna say. Oh, there you go.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Type of question that would probably get into your world. Is there any direct cable wire in, copper wire, anything to provide Internet services? I know it's old technology, but I know we hear it's really hard to get Wi Fi in our correctional facilities because they're concrete buildings. We do have some hotspots that we know where we could do it, but in other spots, is there any way you could do any wiring?

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So most of the time we end up running wiring in conduit,

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: surface mount.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Right now for Internet access?

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: For additional power, data, anything, because we really don't have access to things like the walls just do the construction.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We're doing that right now so that folks have

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: I am unaware of the status of internet. We do that for any other projects that need to run a lot of it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. So is there any opportunity? We're depending on the Wi Fi system like what we have at home, which is really the concrete walls prevent that signaling. Is there any opportunity to wire certain spots within the facility so that folks can have access?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: So the answer is yes. However, I mean, because this is right now, and I'm afraid of the of the firms, but this is the second time that's that has been provided for the transmitted individuals. They have provided more WiFi in the living units because of the concrete.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And how have they done that? Through wiring? Through service monoclockwise. Right.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: So you have your Wi Fi node that everybody gets to see in the ceiling. And that living unit may need two. So hard copper wires run inside of a conduit to that. And that would provide the Wi Fi.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Is that also available in other parts of the facilities? Like at booking or not in the living units necessarily, but maybe in a secure room where this could be a lawyer client? Yeah.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So the power the Internet that Joe is speaking of is for the tablet. Only for the

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: tablets. It's their tablets.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: And so there's other networks which DOC was trying to combine to make this process easier last year. There was a discussion about that. There's also the community college. Of course, internet and any other providers. You'll have to talk to DOC about where tablets are allowed and where internet for those tablets provided.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Just kind of thinking about testimony the other day and seeing if there's a way that we could get some internet access or access to download some apps that might help in terms of language interpretation for folks. Seems to be a stumbling block. Just thinking outside the box, if there's anything that could be done. Putting this box on the table for folks.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh, I have a lot of thoughts.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I'm thinking for access for

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Right, yeah. Even if it's I don't know the intersection here between the wiring and the security policy around bringing in outside ads, or just even the capacity for folks who are providing services to detainees, in this case, to maybe set up their own hotspot for setting up their language services. If that becomes I'm still thinking about this is a whole can of worms for you, Joe. But I'm still thinking about and you haven't been prepared for this. Still thinking about temporary, like a FEMA trailer or something that we could put on-site that would have the capacity for five or six meeting rooms, that would have Wi Fi access or internet access, that would allow, especially, ASLU and INCVAT to have a place where they can use their language services to interact with detainees for whom English is not their first language. So that's a much bigger again, the chair did open this can of worms.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I did.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Why not? Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Blame me.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Oh, we saw I'm going fishing with her. We've got a can of worms.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But can we ever catch anybody? Yeah, so there's

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: a lot here about space creation and then the Internet capacity within that space if to we're try and find solutions to some of the problems we heard about.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And it's really two facilities. It's the women's facility in St.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Albans Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: At this point. I mean, we heard some really disturbing testimony the other day about legal representation for folks who are being held through the ICE program in our facilities. And legal representation can get into the building sometimes, but there is just no access for them to download interpretive apps. There's no space for them to even for the lawyers to even meet with the clients. I understand the space restrictions, but I'm just and this is a conversation more with DOC on that part. But PGS is also involved. I mean, some committee members have mentioned, could we put up, like, FEMA trailers at those two facilities. PGS would be involved with that. I don't know what the cost would be. I don't know what the security issues would be. I'm assuming there'd be some security issues on DOC's part. Don't think And

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: probably staffing.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And staffing. And I don't think it's as easy at BGS's part of just plunking a temporary trailer there.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It would be more than that. But, again, this would have to start with, corrections and, you know, to we can work with them as to, you know, if you look at how big that trailer was, where it could go, if it could go, security, and and the likes of that, that would be it would be a definite part of beyond that, which would have to come from corrections.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And the cost. It's not gonna be what we may think may be the cost. Maybe two or three times the cost. Because it does have to be secure.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I'm trying

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to think through this with you guys. Yeah. So if there's a trailer that can fit somewhere on the ground, and if you're using it for the purpose you described, I assume that anybody coming in, including legal counsel, still has to check all their devices. Right? So what devices are

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: you going

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to be running any apps through anyway?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, is also the any visitor that goes into a correctional facility, you can't go in with your cell phone. And I don't know if that's part of the issue. I just don't know. I don't know if you could do the lawyer client well, you need privacy, but if you could do it more in the public arena. I don't know. I mean, it's just so disturbing to hear that we have folks who are being held and being denied their due process due to whatever. You're not the legal counsel isn't allowed through the door to begin with, or there isn't proper language interpretation being made available, and there might be some electronic manner way to do that. You know, this is, I'm sorry to say, this is setting up the state for a lawsuit.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Mhmm.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That's what's gonna happen here. And then it's gonna be really expensive on the state to take care of this. And we're just kinda thinking out of the box, trying to figure something out here. Gina?

[Shawn Sweeney, Clerk]: I'm just curious, I'm not sure where you guys have conduit or ductwork in different places, but would it make sense to look into this enough that if you're running new ductwork, how expensive could it be to run the conduit for the Internet at the same time?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Two different trades, two different locations. And Corrections already have done tablets twice now, two different companies. Okay. In between the first and the second company, thought was they were going to reuse that conduit cable and the likes of that. It didn't work out for them. And now there it is. So that's one of those things too that, you know, things of the company, what their requirements are versus past company or what future needs are. So that's something more than a cat five partner? You're you're running in conduit and where is it coming from and going into. So, you know, these are solid structures. So it's not that easy just to run through down a hallway and put a cap.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, that's kinda just like,

[Shawn Sweeney, Clerk]: does it have to be in conduit?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes.

[Shawn Sweeney, Clerk]: It has to be. Okay. You can just

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We require it to be not only the conduit also, you don't have your typical screw

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Right.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Fittings.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yep.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Like, because they can be taken apart and kind of in a four foot, eight foot sticking conduit is not good for their own kids. For a lot of reasons. Yes. Itchy.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And I just figured

[Shawn Sweeney, Clerk]: if they're disturbing the building to run the the ductwork with, know, putting the conduit in that would make a lot

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: of DC part, most of the ductwork's already in place.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay, cool. That's what I wanted to know. Yes. I brought it up because there's something that's gonna be percolating this whole session. A place to deal with some of this is the capital bill, and we just don't know what to do.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Just out of curiosity, Joe, do we have, like, trailers and storage that look anything like the middle of the tunnel? No. Okay.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: What's the change? Or do we wanna repurpose those when they're done?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: You know, right.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: What is the cost on

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: the first stage? About I have to be Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: What was the question, Troy?

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: It's cost. If we're if we're gonna acquire new ones. Again, then you're settled with

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Is that I I don't wanna take up BGS's work, Tom, but is there a way that you could quickly give us a ballpark figure in terms of we put a trailer at South South Burlington facility and the one up in Saint Albans? There's more space in Saint Albans. And we haven't even talked to DOC about this. I

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: mean, that would be the place to start, I think, because I don't know the size of the trailer. So I need to know that if it's gonna be used year round, what security requirements there are. You know, do we need if if it's with counsel and the incarcerated individual, can they be together alone? Or do we need another area for supervision from a correctional officer in that? It's also isolated but secure. So they'll all two star with them to develop something, and then we could come up with an estimate. But until I know what I'm looking at to provide an estimate, can't do it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We'll keep those in the back of your mind. Troy?

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: I want to go back to accessibility. No

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: worries. I don't know what you

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: A number of us were actually at CRCF in the midst of the accessibility upgrade, so we saw it happening. As we were there, we heard it happening. And we saw the folks living in the gym while the shuffle was happening. Can we anticipate something similar for the next facility? And if so, how long? Or is there more flexibility in keeping folks in beds rather than on a gym floor?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I don't have a good answer for you. The next facility is Newport. The outside work is being done. A lot of the inside work, to some of it, was very simple. It was, you know, the toilet paper dispenser holder was just off a half inch. And so it's relocating that. Some sinks that are also off by a couple inches. So it doesn't have an impact like we Chittenden. The areas that they were having to work in are slightly different because of the age of that facility. Yes.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: So do you think it'll be less disruptive? Yes. Okay. Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: There's more space in those facilities than chitters, so you can move people around. And and it's a male facility, so if you have to, you can move some of those folks to another facility in the Where in the women's facility, you don't have you gotta work within that confine of that building. Okay. So we're not sure if the 1.9 that's left over will get us through what's remaining, and there was no money that we put in in FY twenty seven.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Okay. Next up, we have the St. John's Burroughs Northeast Correctional, and work camp control system. So this is the third facility in line of having control being replaced, updated. Newport was first, then we went to Springville, and now we're at St. John's Burrow. So this door control system is more than just operating a door. It is also connected to a computer system that the commercial operators now have a touchscreen, so they have multiple buttons to push on or off. It also integrates with the camera system. So all the cameras are going to be new at this facility. So there's when you push a button, if you're at a door, the camera actually pivots to or looks at the door. And if it's a secure door, you need the camera on both sides. The what? You need a camera on both sides of the door. Okay. And so when you push the button, the camera actually goes to it. The system looks brings it up on the screen because it's used to be activated. And then the correctional officer can, you know, let the individual through or not. But it's also tied to the fence perimeter intrusion system. So when that goes off, it also comes back to and points it out onto that screen. And this would be a master control. In the living units, they also have a computer screen, touch screen that they have, and that's to operate all the individual doors. It also ties into being able to turn the lights off and on and also shut the water off to prevent flooding. So all that is also doors and frames. For the new system, leeway, the barriers that it had between when that door is supposed to be locked and secure is a lot less than what the older ships have had. So we're finding out that over the years, the doors have been worked or rusted at the bottom of the frames having those doors. Once Saint John's story is completed, our next stop, I believe, is what?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I've changed.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: But did you have to replace a lot of the doors or just I'm not sure if this facility we had to get a another door for some of the new folks to replace in Springfield.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, you're also talking the doors to is it doors that are in the public areas, or is it doors also in the living units? Living units. Individual cells.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. Yeah. And if you take a book and you put it between the crack insulating the door, it'll warp it. And then the magnets don't align.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That's what happens.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. Oh, yes.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: They don't wanna

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: The daily incident.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. They don't wanna be locked. They wanna weigh out of those

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: But you didn't know what percentage there was shipping places.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So you're working now in Saint Jay. You finished Newport and Springfield. You're working in Saint Jay. You got 4,100,000.0 left. That 4,100,000.0 will get you through everything in Say Jay and the work camp? Maybe?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Perhaps. Okay.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: That's another question. So

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: we do have a construction manager on board. As soon as we finish the design, it's complete. We're gonna go out to bid, and then we'll be starting the work.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Because we did put in 2,600,000.0 in f five twenty seven.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: So a lot of times when you are once the system's in, that's when you find out that we do our best. We're designed to clarify which doors or frames have to be adjusted, removed, and replaced. Once the system's in there, you actually find out that there are more doors that are out of alignment.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So the count the work camp doesn't have that many doors. More it's more of a open barrack style. Do you know how many folks are in that facility? I do. So if you had to move some of the individuals from a regional facility, could you put them there in the work camp?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: If there was space, perhaps. The fact that it's a DOC call and that can that the graduate individual go into that type of client. That's all. So what they would have done in the past is I'm gonna tell you everybody, any good people can go in now, but then go. And then so everybody who needs to be locked in a facility in a single cell would stay on or go to a different facility.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Then Rutland is next. Does that complete them all? We will

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: go to Northwest. For Chittenden. Chittenden is also failing. I'd rather do Northwest first since, you know, looking to replace Caitlin.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Just thinking where we were ten years ago. If we had done that, a lot of these issues would have gone away.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: If you had done what?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Oh, the big plan back then was to really deal with Northwest, have that as one of our big central facilities, have the women's facility on that property. And we would have closed probably Rutland or Saint Jay. And we would have brought our out of state folks back. That was the big plan back in 2016. Like that. When Con who was was Conor Hogan? It's not well, what's that? You 2016. Was remember the big big plan in the Southwest? We've done that. A lot of these issues won't be here. Oh, well. We keep going.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We're here. Next up, St. Albans. We have the Northwest State Crasher Facility placement. The last time we discussed this, I told you we got out to bid. We had a low bid and a high bid. Not sure if it was correct. And we came back and asked for additional funds. That was a good thing because the low bidder did bid again. The high bidder, actually, the bidder was different. And that project will start in the spring as soon as weather allows.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And, hopefully, this money will carry it through to completion.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We hope. It will always

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: hope. Perhaps.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Maybe perhaps it will be the new work for me.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. Perhaps. We'll see. Because we haven't put anything in in '27. While we're up in Northwest, where are we with the reconfiguration of the booking area and all of that? Is that being part of this? Because the roof replacement, when we talked about it, might impact all of the changing around of the booking area.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: That is correct, madam chair. And I'll set you over to Sabrina for that because that's her project.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: And you have just configured conceptual design on that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And is the price coming in higher than what we anticipated? Perhaps. Perhaps.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We'll see

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: next week. I'm going

[Unidentified Committee Member]: start using that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We started that three years ago.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: So design is underway? Successful design that has just been completed.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Perhaps.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Well, if we could design after that.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: We haven't done that. That works out. I don't think that it's true. That will?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yeah. We did last year. Mhmm. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Because Northwest right now, of all of our facilities not shouldn't all of our facilities is really seeing the most use in our booking area is my hunch, which because we're taking in folks from the northern part of the county up along as you go east along the Canadian border down Franklin, even Essex Orleans possibly. They're going there and all of Chittenden County, part of Washington County, Addison County. And then we have the federal marshals. That's where most of our federal marshal beds are for males at St. Albans. That's been tradition for a long time. And now we've got the pressure of ICE detainees. So this facility, that booking area is heavily, heavily, heavily used. When that booking area originally was there, the South Burlington facility is a male facility. So all of the detainees and all of the folks funneling into the Chittenden facility males, they were going to the South Burlington facility. They weren't going to St. Albans. But when the South Burlington facility got changed into the woman's facility, those men are now going up to St. Albans. So it's putting a lot of pressure on this facility and that booking area just to keep that in mind. And we started run we started the work on renovating that area three years ago, I think. Four? Three, four years ago.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Three. We were

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: on Zoom. We started. Oh, how time goes by. Okay. Anything What section for? Anything else? I'm just looking. And this is perhaps because it's half 1,000,027 for the Newport Sprinklr system, but there's nothing. '26 We haven't started that yet. Haven't started. Mhmm. K. Any other questions while we're in the DOC world and construction? I already threw one foot fall.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Shawn? Yeah. I kinda ask, what are you using as a material or it's it's asphalt shingle

[Shawn Sweeney, Clerk]: and coffee.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It's okay. Sorry, sir. I couldn't pass that one up. Couldn't miss that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Sorry. Okay. I gotta I can't help this done. The joke is wrapping the Bennington Monument in copper.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: It's coming from Shawn. Good.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Works. And speaking of pain, it's never really.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Beside baseball.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Oh, the asphalt shingle, what, twenty years. Right? Again. With the architectural style, they've been over thirty years. The flat roofs will be numbering the fence previously last fall.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: You're never gonna hold that

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: one down. No.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: No. He's still on there. Okay. As we're going down to Bennington, now let's look at the vets. And we did have a great tour of the vets out there in September, and Mary did a terrific job putting us all together. And it was a great reunion of the committee as well.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Sabrina will be providing information on these two.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So we have the American Way reconstruction. I'm assuming you have a little history lesson since you visited this.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Mhmm.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We saw that ramp going up into the laundry room. It was awful.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: we've been working on this project for quite a

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: few years. We have stopped at the design development phase in December 2024, and we've been waiting on funding. This is a federal matching and we are currently working through the grant application process with the VA.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Say that again? No, the last part again.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: We are currently working through the grant application process with the VA.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: How long will that take, do you think? Have no idea. First time

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: much money

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Historically, how long does it take? But is there new dynamics now in the federal piece that's gonna extend this, or do you not know?

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: Don't know if the Jackson

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So the design development phase was done. Is that design gonna change at all, do you think?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: I don't

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: anticipate it, though.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But you're not far along in design documents, though.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So the so the design is complete. The next phase is construction documents, which is just really withdrawing that public contractor how to build a building. There's no more design or inspection. VA is very, that sounds very happy with the design, so I anticipate major changes. You can't go forward to construction documents until you know what the federal batch is gonna be. Lack of funding may force us to be decided. So that's why we stopped at design.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Lack of funding being on the federal level?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yeah. We don't get funding.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: I I don't know how it looks. Like I said, it's my first time. So that's why we stop at that base in case budget does support us to be excited.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Where are you hovering with the whole thing right now? Do you know?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And when did you start working with the application for the federal dollars?

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So we did submit application last year, did not receive funding. So we are resubmitting application this year.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: This fiscal year or calendar year? It's a question for Melissa

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Jackson. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: it's already been resubmitted.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: It has not been submitted yet.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Okay. It's gonna sound like it

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: was next week with the VA. With the VA? Yes.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: You know why it was denied?

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: There's a lot of requests reporting into that.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: So nothing we did wrong or No.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yeah, they didn't need something that they didn't have.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Limited source.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Okay.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: What's the backup plan when if you don't get enough money for those beds down there, those 30 beds that were empty because they have they have no one at home?

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: Unless the Jackson will have to answer that.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I don't if you have less Jackson in here.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Mhmm. Well, they also have a day up here then.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Okay.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That's fine.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: So if

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: we could coordinate. Mary, maybe you could help on that when they come up. Usually, they come up sometime in February. Yes. January, February. If you could coordinate when they're coming up for that, then we can schedule Melissa in while they're here. Because it's better to have them in person than on Zoom. Absolutely. If you're already up here, let's see if we can schedule them. Because they have their day up the bedtime is their day up here. Okay. Anything else on this one? Section? And I know the vet's home has just a lot of money moving around. Some of it is working with the vet's home more so than you as well. Anything else on this particular piece? Laundry. This is where we spend a lot of time. Dryers, washing machines. Whoever thought we'd get into sizes of washers and dryers. Stressful.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: So this is reconstruction of the laundry facilities. The laundry facility is in the 1800s building with oil and mud, very difficult to control heat and humidity. There was a structural assessment completed on that building in 2024 that the dean did on Sound and recommended that we replace the laundry facility. The lodging facility is about 2,000 square feet, serves 140 beds currently. The request proposals for AE services will be hopefully advertised.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And we also put in language that we can move money around between projects just in case we don't know what this is gonna come back at. They they refine their numbers over and over and the size of the washers and the whole nine yards. K? So we can get an update from Alyssa when when they're here. Anything else?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: It's the r 22 air handler replacement complete? That's not we'll just not involve with us. That one's the home itself working that. K. So I think I think provides Correct. K. Thanks. Where did you see that?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Right.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Site 51. I do the second question. Joe, with the Veterans Building, what do you know about I know it's they're saying that the walls even are structurally you can't really redo it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: In where? The vet's home.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: In the vet's home. Mhmm. Is there a problem with the grounds as well because of the leaking septic and all that? I'm not seeing a report. So

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: the A Wing is slab on grade and those cast iron pipes below that are leaking. And so the only way to replace those is to demo that slab. That being also includes structural burying walls because the plan was to build a second story above it, and the space of the rooms does not meet current VA standards. And so we can't move all of those walls to meet that standard because they're buried. So it's pretty much a complete demo on the building.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: But

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: we haven't really moved along with any of that. And a way

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: No. The design is

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: for a is a a new image. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Court houses.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We're gonna have to run has to run off to another meeting itself.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It's alright. Now you launch your backup.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Here's people on the bench for me still. Hello, Emily. Oh, didn't see Emily. I'm just the deputy commissioner. She snuck in and taking it all in.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: It used to be in Tate's Way back. Over there? Yeah.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Oh, yeah. That's where we talked last year. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: In our little one.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Okay. Last up, Section 14, we have the White River Junction Courthouse. That project's been ongoing for a number of years. We had started design. It was shelved for a little bit. And we got into it back in FY 'eighty three. 24 completed the design. They had to bid. They are almost complete. February 2, Roundhouse Day, judiciary will be open in the White River Courthouse or operating. They'll be moving the last week ever. Is that Troy? We haven't there. The job is not done yet. They're so changeover to others' place to deal with. So that'll all go.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We'll know by April, May, maybe, perhaps.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Perhaps.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I think by April, May, we would I'd have a good idea. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Well, that's gonna be a relief for that. And then the building that we leased across the road when we did the construction of the courthouse renovations, the staff of the courthouse, some of the staff moved over there. It's attorney. And they're now the state's attorney

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: in there. Yes. In LA. The state's attorney. Yeah. They were in another lease. That lease was coming to an end because they were looking to the landlord was looking to redo the whole block. And so they took that space. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: there is other projects within the judiciary here, but I'm just curious. There was a backup power system in the Woodstock Court House.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: All the district projects were county courts.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So you don't get involved in the county?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We do not.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: This is the this is the ones that is Yes. So there's three county courthouses. There's a Woodstock. There's the one in Memorial County. Though we built that.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: That is correct. We we built a new addition put on existing county courthouse. And it's operated our MOU that we have for the county court is they take care of all the maintenance and everything else and the upkeep, and we pay into them like we've done in other facilities.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And then the Essex County Courthouse, that's its own word, uptick. And that's conversation with the judiciary. Yes. 3,600,000.0.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: James? It's gonna be the easiest answer, I'm sure. As soon as you start saying it, I'm like, what is fit for corp staff and least face meet lastly? Fit up? Oh, fit up. It's fit up. Yeah. Oh, no. I tried it because I'm the last fit. That would be fit. That should have been fit up. So it's 05:00. What do you mean by that? Just to elaborate. What is fit up? In the court space that we had that we were using, we have to, like, the partitions and something that we built, we would have to devolize all that stuff.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah. So the office space. It wasn't the courthouse. It was the administrative staff. The actual court function was moved from when the construction was going on in the White Liquor Court. It was moved up to Woodstock. All the court proceedings, so no federal staff.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: In Woodstock Facility Courthouse, we actually built a secure room that has and had created a secure restroom. All that has to be undone. Once they all move in, we'll start that work.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Did that come out of the balance of the 1.3

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes,

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: did. There you go, Troy. Kiss it goodbye.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I'm not using 1,000,000 to redo a bathroom. Happened before. Say more than that? Much more. No. There's more work, not the cost. Shawn, that balance is for finishing up White River and undoing the work in two two other buildings. Another dumb question. So if they're moving in next month? Moving in this month. End of the month, they'll be moved in. They start court in the board house on February 2. So you're just working through the final punch list type thing, or is it all Yes. Thank you. Anything else? It's not cold, it's I think it's still cold. Never mind.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Thank you so much.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Have a nice day.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Your word is triplex.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: We're moving into the individual program update

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: He's gonna be around though.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: You can

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: talk to him on Zoom.

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: Yeah, exactly.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: He doesn't have to be in person. Telecommunications?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Is that what we're talking about? There's a lot of little committees going. Is it tele Kevin, Mary, what are we supposed to be talking to DOC

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: about? Vying.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Not in there? Mhmm.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Vying.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Vying. So it's about vying.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Victim notification.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: And how they're interpreting genderque violence, gay government. So that we saw the other day that she presented that day of the one. Good. And Kelly said when I I talked to her about it, she was like, yep. Yep. We have a download for you all too. So Yeah. That should be

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: But you can do Zoom. We'll just do one of it's not that he has to be in the building.

[Sabrina (BGS Project Manager)]: Okay.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Let me get the agenda. Where's Charlie? There she is. You're behind. So there's a few folks who wanted to come in, and Charlie with the frontline work really wanted to bring us up to speed with what's happening with programmatic issues within the Chittenden facility because the numbers are just up around 170 Folks, half of those folks based basically have are detainees and how that's really impacting the programs. So, do you come up? Do you want to bring? There is a document that's been submitted on our website.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: I will do my best to smoothly screen share this morning. Terrific. Well, thank you all so much for the opportunity to speak with the committee today about our work at Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility and programming needs for folks there, including incarcerated survivors. My name is Charlie Smithsonen. I'm the policy director at the Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence. I'm also joined by my colleague, Kyle.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Think he's safe for the record. Hi, I'm Kylein Bayou. I'm the director of the VIVUS program at CRCF, and I recognize so many of you from the program. The what program? The DIVAS program. DIVAS.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: We'll talk all about it in just a minute.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: All that's in here, but thank you.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: So for today, we're hoping to briefly review the Vermont Network's DIVAS program, which offers direct services to incarcerated survivors at CRCF, how that work informs our perspective on the women's facility stakeholder group, some thoughts we have on reentry needs of detainees at CRC Act, and the proposal brought by some members of the stakeholder group ourselves as well as ACLU Vermont around how to meet some of those needs with increased capacity for Rantree Services at CRCF. And we're happy to take any questions during our testimony or afterwards. So sometimes we get this question, Why does the Vermont Network run a direct services program at CRCF? And I think the pie chart on this slide really sums it up, that the vast majority of incarcerated women have histories of interpersonal trauma that predate their incarceration. In a 2024 survey of folks at CRCF, ninety seven percent reported experiencing or witnessing domestic violence. And that survey also showed the vast majority also reported experiencing or witnessing sexual violence as a minor. That same survey also showed how these experiences can directly or indirectly contribute So sixty two percent of people at TRCF reported experiences of forced criminalization. So that looks like being pressured or forced to engage in illegal or sexual activities in exchange for money, using substances, or to meet their basic needs. And so that's why, over twenty years, the Vermont Network has operated a statewide direct services program, DIVAS, for incarcerated survivors of domestic violence, sexual violence, and trafficking out of CRCF. And I'll hand it over to my colleague, Kylen, who's going to speak a bit about the nitty gritty details day to day of the program.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Hi. Once again, my name is Kylen. I'm the director of the DIVAS program. If you've been to CRCF for a tour, you've probably seen our office in the building. The DIVAS program, DIVAS stands for discussing intimate violence and accessing support, they're a project of the Vermont network. We're comprised of three advocates who are in the facility five days a week and are there to provide services for people who have experienced domestic violence, sexual violence, human trafficking, post criminality. Those are really big umbrella terms. And we get into a lot of other kinds of relationship health, understanding instances of trauma, safety planning, all kinds of things. So it's myself. I'm there full time. And I have two other almost full time advocates in there.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So can you see what DIVAS stands for again?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yes, it stands for discussing intimate violence and accessing support, which is a little bit of a mouthful, so DIVAS is usually easier.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So, I'm just wondering. Testimony, a joint hearing last week on human and sex trafficking. For folks, for the women who are incarcerated, is there evidence of them being victims of the sex trafficking? Do you know?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Absolutely. In terms of the the pie chart that Charlie just brought up two slides ago about the forced criminality, the question that we asked in the survey was more specifically, have you ever been forced, coerced, or lied to into committing sex or labor acts in exchange for basic needs, housing, safety? So asking around the statute of force, fraud, or coercion, from a survey result, I can't determine if those meet the threshold for human trafficking. Those things can exist within an intimate partner relationship as well. But we do work with a large number of survivors of human trafficking every year. So I'm just wondering,

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: because it's such a vulnerable population. And I know that DOC has to approve who the incarcerated person can have access to on the outside, who they can talk with on the phone, who they can possibly connect with through their iPad, mail that comes in. Do you know if DOC knows that maybe someone that wants to continue contact with a person, maybe the perpetrator?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: I think from my experience working there, the intel team that does monitor those messages coming in and out, mail coming in and out, phone calls, and probably who's bailing out, if there's who's bailing out bail. We've gotten referrals before from the intel team or other DOC staff members saying, we think this person is maybe a risk of human trafficking. We think they might be victimized in some way. Either trafficking or maybe someone that they think is an intimate partner. We receive those referrals from DOC staff. At that point, we reach out to the individual and say someone made a referral on your behalf. From there, all of our services are accessible to them.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Are the women reacting to that if they get the information from you that you had that referral? How do they react? Are they relieved? Or is it like, oh my god, I do need contact with this person?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Sometimes. And I think there's a mix of reactions. Generally, people don't like the feeling of intrusion of privacy, of people reading their messages and hearing their phone calls, even though that's a structural part of the incarceration. But most people are grateful that the staff member was concerned enough to make

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: a referral to our program. How

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Steve is funded? Is it just a hodgepodge of grants through the network there? Do feel like it's stable funding going forward?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Right now, I think we're like 98% funded by the Department of Corrections. We have one other Okay,

[Rep. Conor Casey]: so it's under the corrections line?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes, no, yeah. Okay.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And how long has it been under the corrections? How long has DIVA existed and how long has it been funded through DOC budget?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: How long it's been funded under DOC entirely, I'm not positive. Since, I know at least since 2011 when they moved to Chittenden Regional, that's when it became its own standalone program with an RFP with the Department of Corrections. Before that, it was sort of remote work. Advocates would go in if there was an instance of any kind of sexual misconduct pre investigation. But I'm not sure how it was funded prior to CRCF. So is

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: it an RFP that DOC puts out for And then the network bids on the network, puts in the RFP. Yes. So there could be other entities out there when DOC goes out with the RFP to put in their proposal as well. And how long is your contractor do

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: you say? Standard is two years. We've received some renewals, in the last couple in the last couple of years.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Renewals two years as well or one year?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: One year usually. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: where are you now in that cycle?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: We were just renewed for another year, so we are funded till the June 2027.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: You're funded through FY '27? Yes. And what is the amount for DOC? Not I'm sure the

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: exact number, I believe.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: I'm happy to follow-up with that

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: information Yeah, we're just curious because we're looking at DOC's budget. And this is, it wouldn't show up in their $200,000,000 budget. Dollars 200,000,000 lump sum portion of that is going towards your country. Absolutely.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Terrific questions. Thank you.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Please.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I should know what it is, and as soon as you say it, I will. Priya.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Oh, prison rape. Go ahead.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: The Criminal Rape Elimination Act. Okay. Yeah. Any sort of misconduct that happens between two incarcerated individuals or a staff member and an incarcerated person or potentially between two staff members. We have an MOU with the department as well as HopeWorks, which is the local sexual violence advocacy organization that we are all looped in to make sure there's an advocate available whenever a report is made. Thank you. So just a little bit about the Divas program. I will keep it brief, and I'm happy to answer any other questions that come up. The sort of main focus of our program is providing advocacy, emotional support, and education to incarcerated survivors of violence. On a daily basis, that looks like providing this one on one emotional support in groups and education. Those are their two biggest building blocks of our program. We offer a number of programs around healing trauma, grief and loss. We just started an LGBTQ resiliency group. We do safety planning and reentry groups, as well as just some more community building, arts based healing, anything like that. And then as people are getting ready to leave the correctional facility, both detained or sentenced populations, We do everything we can to make sure that they have everything they need to be successful wherever they're returning to after CRCF. If that's connecting them with their local deviate SV organization or making other kinds of referrals, I'm also available a few days a week in the community when I'm not at the correctional facility to provide ongoing support and referrals, wraparound support for anyone exiting the correctional facility. We work with all the other contractors, DOC caseworkers, and administration. And we also provide training for corrections staff around trauma informed care, best practices for working with incarcerated survivors of violence, as well as self care for corrections staff experiencing vicarious trauma working in a correctional facility. And I already touched on Priya that we are available for all of those investigations.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So with the increased population coming in with detainees, What are you seeing in terms of these programs here that you're really seeing more pressure being applied? Or is it pretty standard or equal? We've seen a

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: lot of increase. I actually just completed our six FY semiannual report. So everything from July to December of this past year saw a 69% increase in the one on one sessions that we're having with folks. There was a 79% increase in fleet participation and 66% increase in just the number of people that we served overall. Reentry services specifically increased 176 from FY 'twenty five to 'twenty six. Sorry.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So the reentry, are you just working with those who have been sentenced? Or are you also working with any detainees? Detainees. We work with anyone who's abusive. Anyone. So is it the detainee population that's putting the pressure on the increases here?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yes. A group of contractors at CRCF received some funds from JRI last year to JRI is joint.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Justice restorative. JR2. Justice Reinvestment.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yeah. And that funding was for us to be able to assist people who are reentering the community in accessing housing support, transportation needs, utility assistance. We have helped people get cell phones for when they're leaving. And a lot of our time in the last six months has been spent assisting people and getting ready to leave more detained than sentenced. But across the board, we're seeing increases. So for those folks who

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: are detained and that you're working, particularly on the reentry piece, how long have they been there, detained? Do you know? Is it a year? Is it six months? It's not a week, I would assume. Could it be? We work with people anywhere from

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: as As they've been booked into general population, they can start accessing our program. We work with people who have been there anywhere from twenty four hours to upwards of a year detained.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And what are you seeing as some of the stumbling blocks on the reentry piece for them?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: For reentry support, I think we see mostly that there isn't a very clear process in place about who can assist with reentry support for detained populations. It's not something that DOC caseworkers can assist with. Contractors can't make referrals to rehab. A lot of times, their lawyer or whoever is representing them is the person that needs to make the contact for that kind of pretrial release, which puts a lot of strain on the lawyer to do that. And confusion, I think, for people who especially have not been incarcerated before, how that process is going to work, how to get in touch with a lawyer, making three way calls to rehab with their lawyer to try and get in is really challenging.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And how many of those detainees that you've worked with are coming back into the system? Do you see a lot of that happening or not?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yeah, we do see a lot of people return. I can't say what percentage, but there are people that I've been working in the correctional facility for over eight years, and there are people that I work with who I've known for all eight years who have come in and out a number of times.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So is it they finally got to court and were finally sentenced? Because detainees, for the most part, haven't been sentenced. So is it they finally got into court and finally had their sentence? Or is it new crimes that were committed? I wouldn't say it's new crimes.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: I would say it's either that or potentially a violation of conditions of release.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: And I think we're still also trying to wrap our heads around what is driving the very sharp increase of detainees, especially detainees in our women's correctional facility. I know there were some conversations at Joint Justice in the off session around trying to get more data from the courts, from DOC, to really understand this problem, and that's something that we're looking forward to seeing as well. I also received a friendly note that the DIVA's annual budget is $206,000 a year.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And that's totally through DOC?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: That's my understanding, yes. Yep. 106,000. 206.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: The one on one emotional support, who's providing?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Is that volunteers? Is that other incarcerated people? Is that people like professional counselors?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: That's me and the two other advocates who work in the correctional facility. We're there five days a week in some layered capacity. Sometimes it's one advocate in the building. Other times, there's two. Very rarely there's three of us

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: because it gets a little crowded in there

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: after two advocates. But yeah, we're there Monday to Friday.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: You have that little office that's really colorful and stuff.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yes, yes.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I think you were there the day we were there.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: I think

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: so, yeah.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: What type of expenses would you have aside from these salaries there within that $206,000 It's not a lot of money for three salaries, almost full time?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: The majority of it is our salaries. We have a very small budget for office supplies. One thing that we provide to incarcerated folks, both as an emotional support skill and a part of our groups, is composition notebooks and pens. We do a lot of expressive writing and encourage journaling for mindfulness and grounding. So we have a very small budget for that, some office supplies, and a minute amount for a data management system that we use.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Right. Big budget, So you had mentioned earlier, like cell phones and stuff for people reentering. Where does that money

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: come from? That money had been coming from the Justice Reinvestment Fund, is still open with very little left in it. I think we're trying to figure out how to use the last. Do you

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: buy new funds? Is that how

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: you do it? Yes. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: I have a pot. Talk to me afterwards.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: So that would be great. That is Yeah.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Cock the wires.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: No. That's a project down at Springfield.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Oh, awesome. Awesome.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Not at the facility, so Okay. Good to know and talk

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: to you about.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: And I think, after that, I'm passing it back to you. Great. Thank you so much.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Yes, thank you. Great questions. So case are the perspectives that we bring to our advocacy work for justice involved women. And we continue to remain deeply involved in those conversations, including those around replacing CRCF. Some of those conversations have happened within the women's facility stakeholder group, which I'm sure this committee is very familiar with.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Didn't wrote

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: the letter.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Just committee wrote the letter. And so the goal that the committee had with this letter of intent, the goal that we bring to our participation, is developing a replacement facility that promotes successful rehabilitation and reentry of justice involved women. That includes a physical space. But more importantly, it includes programming to make sure that justice involved women are supported.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So go back to that slide, because I want to bring part of the committee up to speed. Because half the committee was here back when we did this in 'twenty three, the other half of the committees knew. We've been working on replacing women's facility for a long time. And there was a stakeholders group that was working with DOC to really look at program needs that need to be in the new building, in the new facility. And really working with DOC in terms of When DOC works with BGS, DOC presents to BGS what type of programming will be in a facility. And then DOC can then design the building accordingly. So the stakeholder group is really a group of a variety of interested parties that are working informally sort of with DOC in terms of formulating what programs DOC would be offering within the new facility. So that's the genesis of the stakeholder group. We really wanted to formalize that more because it was just kind of hanging out there. Absolutely. And

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: it is within the context of that stakeholder group that we've been talking about the deteriorating conditions at CRCF and the significant number of people incarcerated there, particularly the number of state detainees, which now regularly comprise over half of those at CRCF. As Kylen noted, these are folks that can be in CRCF from anywhere from days to years. And I'm sure that you've also seen this chart before from the Department of Corrections that speaks to the significant rise of both sentenced and detained populations, but you can see a 103% increase in detainees over the last four years. So when we were looking at this issue in the fall, there was a high point in mid September where there were 183 people incarcerated at CRCF, including 93 state detainees. The American Correctional Association optimal conditions that they have for CRCF with an appropriate capacity buffer puts the number that should be optimally accommodated at CRCF at 88 people. And so that's a really massive disparity that has stressed the conditions at CRCF. I know you were hearing from Building and General Services earlier. There is needed construction at CRCF for to to ensure the building's ADA compliant. Between that and the high census numbers, incarcerated people are sleeping in common spaces, in the gym. The yard is being used to stage construction, and so outside time has been restricted since the fall. And these are crisis conditions and underscore the critical need for a new facility. And what we're really looking for is a clear plan for how this project will move forward at a pace that reflects that crisis. As Chair Emmons said, we've been having this conversation for many years now and do fear that we will be giving a similar update in another few years without much progress. And so this is a real priority for us to figure out how do we move forward together. As Kylen noted, the detainees that are entering CRCF, many of them have very high unmet needs. The majority are detoxing or using substances. Many are experiencing homelessness and have difficulty meeting their housing condition of pretrial release. And so that's why we, along with many of the other stakeholders in the women's facility group, see an urgent need to improve reentry support for detainees at CRCF. And so, as Kyla noted, and I'm sure you all have heard in other testimony, reentry services are really critical to preparing incarcerated people, including detainees, for accessible reentry following release. And these services center on meeting basic needs after release, including securing housing, treatment, enrolling in benefits. And successful reentry planning involves both community providers like DIVAS staff, as well as DOC caseworkers.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I have a question.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Yes, please.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: What documents need to be secured? Birth certificates,

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: and then level Social security card, driver's license, or non driver ID card. Those are the three big ones.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Do a lot of the folks that don't have a birth certificate know where they were born?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yeah. And I think the Department of Corrections can help anyone receive one who was born in Vermont. Out of state birth certificate is More difficult. Yeah, or not possible for the department to get. They've found someone who can help with that. Those documents and the ID program are only for folks who have been sentenced and served six months.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So, how many of the detainees you've been working with have served longer than six months?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: You know, I'm not sure about a number. A

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: lot. How many of the detainees who have come in do not have a valid ID? Majority. Is it because their driver's license has been suspended? Or Most of

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: the time, they just don't have they don't have any idea. People who are homeless aren't usually great at keeping track of where all the documentation is. Or they're arrested and their belongings are in a purse at a police department somewhere else and are disposed of or are at a friend's house, they can't go back there. So most of the people who are leaving are relying on the jail identification, which is a printed out piece of paper. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And that's not acknowledged out publicly.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: They can use it for picking up medications and cashing a check. It's the main pieces of that.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Questions?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I don't know if this is the right time or not. Maybe it was a better time in the presentation. We heard about difficulty with federal detainees accessing legal services, to some degree medical services. Maybe they go through too fast for you guys to interact. But to what degree did you have interactions with federal detainees? Mean, do you have more trouble how's it going there? Everyone

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: who is incarcerated in the general population has access to our program. For folks that are detained by immigration services, they're usually only there for a number of days. So if they're moving quickly and there's a language barrier, there's often very little overlap. We have seen an increase in the number of people who are detained by immigration. For folks that are federally detained not in the immigration system, they can be there weeks to months. We work with a lot of those folks really regularly as well.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Those are coming in, just to clarify, those are coming in through the federal marshals in terms they have there is a federal crime has been created that that they were part of in Vermont.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yes. And they

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: are is not a federal it is not a criminal crime to cross the border. That's a civil. Is not criminal. If there was drug dealing that was going on in a community and the drug task force and the federal government was involved one way, they would be housed through the federal marshals program, not the Custom Border Patrol. So we have to be very clear on that. There is a distinction.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: I'm not positive of the exact number of this, but I think there are 11 beds that are held for criminal federal proceedings, and then I think eight for immigration and customs. For the folks that are detained pending criminal charges, can be there anywhere, again, from weeks to months. Most of the time, once they become sentenced, then they move into a different facility. I do know that the marshals do try to keep mothers in the facility if they can so that visitation

[Unidentified Committee Member]: is possible. And then sort of a knock on question about resources to the language question, whether it's federal or not, whoever it is, do you have much occasion to use language resources? What do you got?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: In the instances where I've worked with people who need language services, the department has been really helpful in letting us use their third party service, which is a translator on a cell phone. We've contracted, we've reached out to LanguageLine? Not LanguageLine, it'll come back to me on that. We've reached out to another third party service. A lot of times you need to schedule it in advance so more quickly we can use the DOC services or even just Google Translate type into

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: each other.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: That was the last question. Yeah. So there is some occasion to use an app

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: or whatever as opposed to Yes. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Is that on your phone, or is it on a state issued phone?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: State issued phone. It's usually the shift supervisor, security shift supervisor's cell phone. They've let us use them to access language services. Go ahead, Kevin.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: How often have you not had the opportunity to have some kind of translation services? 5%, 50%. I don't

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: think there's ever been a time where we've been refused it. I think it just is a matter of how quickly the service is moving, how emergent it is, and if the person is interested in using it or not. Most folks actually prefer to type. So we'll use Google Translate on a laptop and type it with each other.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So you're working with those folks under the federal marshal system as well as the ICE folks? Yes. And you have access to language interpretation for folks who are being held by ICE Yes. Facilities? Yes. And that you are within the facility and you are using the supervisor's

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: phone basically for that? Yeah, they've come down to when I was meeting one specific instance with somebody who hadn't general population yet. They were still in the secure booking part. And the supervisor let us use one of the caseworker offices down there. We had to have the door open, but we could use the phone laying out on the table to use communication service. Selective access. Yes.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Selective access. So, Kylen, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason why you were able to use a ship supervisor's phone is because of your contract at DOC. Yeah, it

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: was a referral that I had received earlier that day of saying, We think that this person may be in need of your services while they're here. We did a little bit of typing. That wasn't working. So I went back to the people who made the referral in the building and said, I need to be able to speak to this person more clearly.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Of course, it is essential for all folks to be able to have that service. Right.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: We just heard some disturbing testimony the other day that somehow for legal representation, they're not able through language barriers or even medical services through language barriers and lack of interpreters. There

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: are a few people who work in the building who speak a second language, they'll often call on that person. They also just use other incarcerated individuals in the building to translate for them.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Yeah, but it shouldn't have to be that tough. That's absolutely right. It's selective inclusivity.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: On the occasions that you've had you had access to the supervisor's office sometimes as well as the phone to provide services and have translation. Is that just you two? It's like one on one or are there other folks? I mean, you're being observed, right?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yeah. It's it's the two of us. Then the shift supervisor stays nearby just because I'm using their cell phone. But it is just me and that individual.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I mean,

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: you need the supervision. I'm not saying you shouldn't be supervised there.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Yeah. Think just because I'm not someone who's supposed to have a state issued phone in the facility, and having access to a cell phone or internet in the facility is obviously something that should be monitored. Caroline, do you want to talk a little

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: bit about the confidential nature of your services

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Oh, as absolutely. Should have covered that earlier. So DIVAS is covered under victim crisis worker privilege, which all domestic and sexual violence advocates across the state are. But what that means is that DIVAS has the highest level of confidentiality in CRCF. Everything that we talk about with the exception of child abuse remains confidential in terms of anything working with folks who are experiencing domestic and sexual violence. For case collaboration, we do a lot of releases of information. For the most part, all of our safety planning and reentry services, our service users are not feeling like those need to remain confidential. They want the best plan possible and for us to be collaborating with other people. But those releases are really specific and time sensitive around who we're sharing information with and why, because all the other information about previous trauma relationships, how these scenarios may fit into their criminal history, confidential in the deepest office.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So when you're working with a sentenced person or a detainee person, and I know what you just said about confidentiality, do you help them at all through the legal system? Do you help them, Something comes up and you think, maybe they need to talk to their lawyer about this. Does that happen? Does is there an ability for them to connect with their legal representation through the criminal justice system? I don't often reach out

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: to lawyers. It would be a very specific situation. It would have to be something very specifically tied to domestic and sexual violence that an advocate from our office would reach out. What we do help people access is the prisoners' rights organization. If there's something new or ongoing that we think is happening post sentencing, it should be investigated or looked at if they're interested in post conviction relief. We do also work closely with prisoners' rights around some of the human trafficking expungement cases. A lot of times, those referrals that we are making to them are connections that we've made with somebody's experience. We're talking to them about the potential that this was human trafficking and letting them know what their options are post sentencing around expungement and vacating that sentence. We make those referrals, and then prisoners' rights does their own investigation affidavit all of those proceedings.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So for the women that you're working with, the sentenced or detainees, do they ever have trouble connecting with their lawyers? Are their lawyers connecting with them? Are you aware of because you're working intimately with the women's population,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: and

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: you might hear things different than what DOC might hear from them. Are you hearing anything where women are having a really difficult time getting access to their legal representation?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: It's really difficult for women to reach out to their representation. I don't think there are structural barriers to representation reaching them in the facility. But it's not common that someone can call their lawyer. So how does

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: a lawyer connect with a person who's incarcerated in a women's facility that you're aware of?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: There's a secure lawyer line. So they call the correctional facility through a specific phone number. Phone. Yes. And that's like an unmonitored phone line. But for a lot of people, even if they have their lawyer's number on, say, their pin sheet, everybody has 10 people that they can call. Using a facility phone, if there's a press one option once you reach the lawyer's office, you can't make that distinction on the phone. So unless they have a direct line to their lawyer, Calling a law office is not really

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: The lawyer calls in. And what do they do if they need interpretation for language at that point? Do you know? You may not have experienced it. Curious. Because that's a landline, so I'm just curious.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: I would assume that the lawyer is calling with their own language services if they're calling in with someone calling in to somebody who needs that support.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Thank you. James?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: I have what hopefully is a simple question. You said everything you talk about is confidential except for child abuse. Do you mean if they tell you they either did it themselves or have knowledge of it? Or is there something else do you mean by child abuse is not confidential?

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Any conversation about child abuse and neglect, we make a report to the Department of Children and Families. And we let folks know that as well. It's always something I let people know upfront. If they were reporting to me that something was happening to a child that they knew about in the community, that would be

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: a report that we would make as well.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: And that is because staff are mandated reporters. Yes. I

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: assume that's what you meant, but sometimes you assume things and it turns out somebody meant something very different.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Recognizing here the short time we have together don't hear about that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Keep going. I Because we're about to eating later on this afternoon. Okay.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Thank you. So,

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: in response to capacity restrictions at CRCF, DOC case managers can only provide services to sentenced individuals and not detainees. DOC updated its policy in response to those capacity restrictions in 2024. And I'm sure that you've heard another testimony with staffing gaps across the system. Even the existing caseworkers are often diverted to stand in for correctional officers or operate remote court, which prevents them from providing the casework that is core to their job. And so the consequences of unmet needs for reentry services are really profound. Detainees are released to situations that are unsafe, where they don't have their basic needs met, and where they have a high likelihood of reoffending. These are people with substance use disorder who are released without a treatment plan. They are survivors of domestic violence who have no option other than returning to an unsafe home. They're released without housing or employment. And we were talking about IDs. Something as simple as you are taken into custody in the summer, you are released in the winter, and you don't have clothes that are weather appropriate. And so there are some reentry supports, like Diva staff, that can support with those concrete things. But not having DOC caseworkers able to really support detainees and collaborate more closely with those community based providers does a real disservice to them. When folks are put in situations where they're likely to re offend and return to the facility, especially with numbers like we're seeing, that's not appropriate. And there are also detainees that could be eligible to be in the community awaiting trial if they had support in meeting their conditions of relief, like securing housing or a treatment bed, but they can't because they don't have the support they need from caseworkers. And this means they're incarcerated longer than required. And in any situation, this would be an injustice. But particularly now with the conditions at CRCF, it's a real concern. So there is one thing that we can do in addition to continuing conversations about a new women's facility, and that is increasing Grand Prix Services capacity at CRCF. Currently, there are about five caseworkers at CRCF, and we estimate that about three to five additional caseworkers are needed to meet the specific Grand Prix needs of detainees. That added staff capacity would also necessitate a revision to the departmental policy to allow those caseworkers to provide reentry services to detainees. That's representative Casey.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Sure. Charlie, so those are five bodies you have there for caseworkers. Are there any positions that have been created that are vacant at the moment that haven't been filled? So are you asking to create more positions or fill vacancies?

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: We're asking to create more positions. Understanding that there's possibly one caseworker that might be in transition. But these these are additional services that are needed.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: It'd be great just before DOC comes in with their budget presentation, we could really break that down because we're looking to get the weeds this year.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Absolutely. I think I have two nitpicky related questions. One is, I don't know if these are terms of art, is there anybody providing services to detainees? Is there anybody excluded from DOC caseworkers? Is there anybody else available to them doing this stuff?

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: DOC staff members?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I guess so, yes.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Caroline, you can speak a little bit to how community based providers interact with PSVS workers. Yeah, I would say all of the

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: contracted services can provide emotional support, education programming, the things that we do. But any sort of pretrial release or information about what's going to happen at court or anything, goes through their lawyer. There is a caseworker at the facility who has more detainees on their caseload than other people, but they can't assist with making calls or referrals to treatment programs or transitional counseling.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And then when it comes to the three to five additional workers and their vision of policy, I assume whoever is there is already busy as can be. But is there any value in their vision of policy alone? Or does that do nothing without the additional resources?

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: The policy was revised because of the lack of staff capacity. It's something that I think is worth conversation. But of course, a policy without the capacity to really provide the services won't do as much good.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Right. Got it. Okay, thanks. So in a hypothetical scenario where you got your call to revisions and you got five new caseworkers next week, where would they work? Would it be space in the facility?

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Well, I think that it's a great question. I'm sure that the Department of Corrections would be happy to speak to it. As you know, the physical space restrictions of CRCF do continue to restrict programming. I don't know, Kylen, if you have any

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: other thoughts on that. It is sort of a jinxed proposal in there, how people are fit together. I with how busy the casework team is currently, new positions would certainly be welcome and people

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: would make space. So we're just talking here for the caseworkers and the specific numbers within the Chittenden facility. I wanna go back to the previous page or the previous, previous. In response to capacity restrictions, DOC updated where they were specifying the DOC caseworkers can only provide casework to tenants. Is that throughout the system or just Chittenden facility? That is throughout the system. So we're having the same impact with the males. That's correct. Because our detainee population in the male facilities have increased dramatically as well, where we had almost 500. Four

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: eighty to 500 of our incarcerated males are detainees. So they're up against this as well. That's absolutely right. And I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. The Department of Corrections would have them, or I can follow-up. But the rate increase of women detainees is more significant than detention. Right. Because a

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: little bit more than half of the population of that facility, where the males get spread out over five other facilities. But that's not to say that those issues aren't percolating in those male facilities as well. And I don't want people to forget that.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Yes. And and neither do we. And, you know, I think there this is a service that everyone, regardless of their gender, regardless of where they're held, should have access to. And it is a question of what is possible. If there is an opportunity to, for example, pilot some reentry services for detainees at CRCF and revisit next year, that's something that we would be interested in. And I'm sure that the Department of Corrections can speak a bit to how that might be possible. I did just want to note that while we are speaking, this proposal was not created by us alone and was outlined in the memo shared on December 16. And many of the partner organizations are really committed to these issues, and we're really grateful for their collaboration. Well, we have been through quite a marathon together here. I want to know I are very appreciative of you taking the time. We'd be happy to reconnect or answer. Sure.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: So like money's tight, space is even tighter, right? And I have no confidence that we're on track for a particular timeline for the replacement. Do you have any other suggestions just to make things more tolerable in the meantime,

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: given

[Rep. Conor Casey]: the limitations? Is there anything we can do over here? Because I'm really worried, you know, just people are languishing for years and years here.

[Charlie Smithsonen, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic & Sexual Violence]: Yes, we certainly share that concern. I would say that looking into meeting program needs within CRCF is a critical piece of that. While we're interested in more data around what is driving that rise in detainees, we do know that there are some people who, if they had support in meeting their conditions of relief, they wouldn't be there.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Marilyn, is there anything else you would add? I would say the exact same thing. What we were able to do that group of contractors with that small amount of money that we had was really substantial in helping people meet, again, those basic needs, outstanding bills, back rent, things that were holding them there, that they could be awaiting trial from the community instead.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Thank you. Joe?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I don't think that Brian's point for detained populations

[Rep. Troy Headrick, Ranking Member]: and maybe he's a cat about

[Unidentified Committee Member]: it, but maybe if somebody's detained for whatever certain period of time, they

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: could be eligible. For services, you mean?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes. Mean, based on care until they're not somebody could be detained for two years and they're not eligible? How does that

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: For the caseworker. Like a space, like a stick.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: The OC has choice based on

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Right. Space and stick.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Mean, I conceivably, you could have somebody detained longer than somebody sentenced. Right.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And that that this this really raises the issue that this these are issues that you get involved in when you're commingling the detainee population with the sentenced population. In the ideal world, the detained population would be held in St. Johnsbury, and would be held at Marble Valley, and would be held at a separate part of a facility in Springfield because that was designed Springfield was designed specifically for the regional peace, which is holding your detainees and the central facility, which is holding your sentence. But now we commingle everything, And that's part of an issue. These issues, this is what arises when we

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: do that. One more trend that I'd just like to add is for people that are detained for a really long time, if it's upwards of a year or eighteen months, sometimes they'll get to trial and be sentenced to time served then are within their back day. So they never have access to case management services in the entire time they're there.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So one thing that we are looking at and we don't know where we're going to head with this is at least the ID piece. Like, now, it's it's only available, to sentence folks who have been there for six months minimum. And we're looking to also include detainees who have been there for six months. We think it may be a simple fix, but nothing as simple in this building. But that that's one tiny, tiny little piece that might help a little bit. That would make a great impact on the detained population. Anything else?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Even though you're shoveling against the tide, you are an encouragement to hear what you're doing. Thank you. And thank you for taking the time to hear all that. Thank you for coming. Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: And I know we asked questions that were kind of valid around, but the information you gave was helpful. Thank you

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: so much. Thank you very much.

[Kylen Bayou, Director of the DIVAS program (CRCF), Vermont Network]: Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Let's Enjoy the connect after we finish here. That's go a wrap for the week. Goodness.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: That's a long one. A tough week. Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: That's a tough week. We've a lot of work to do, folks, ahead of us. We've got a lot of little subgroups working. So I would encourage you to spend some time on that work with us too in terms of the The other thing, folks, I'm gonna try to do is we've got some bills up on the wall that have come in this year, and then one that maybe we could use as a vehicle to help with the accountability court updating the treatment for folks who are on MOED. It would be nice if we could spend some time on all those bills that we have identified and really get them out of here. And one of those is the commissary and telecommunications. So we've got two little subgroups working on that. If you could start working, that will help our workflow. Because I don't wanna get caught the last week in February or the week we get back from town meeting break with a crunch to get these bills out because that's from crossover would be week after town meeting. So if we can get some of those bills out and in the in the process would be a help while we're working on the budget adjustment for the cap. Does that make sense?

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Yes. It does.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: So for these little subcommittees that are established, and maybe what we need to do is sit down next week with Tate and really list the groups and list who's on them so we all know that would be a big help. And you will know too what you're supposed to be doing.

[Rep. Conor Casey]: Do you have to take the temperature because we got five of us on the subgroup there when it's a good time to

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: five.

[Joseph (Joe) Aja, Vermont BGS (Buildings & General Services)]: Come up with this we can Yeah.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons, Chair]: Have a plan going through with that. And I can help you maybe with that document too so that you can understand what your real focus is for that. Anything else before we finish up for the week? I hope everybody has a good weekend.