Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Institutions, it is Wednesday, January 7. In our afternoon meeting, we're going to spend some time with Mary Jane Ainsworth, who's a director from a parole board, and we're just going to have a real general in-depth conversation on the function of the parole board. So welcome, Mary Jane.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Thank you, Madam Chair, for having me the committee. For the record, I'm Mary Jane Ainsworth. I'm the director of the parole board. I have been the director for just shy of seven years. Previous to that, I worked for DOC for twelve and onetwo years. So I've been in directions in the poll board for almost twenty.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You're dating yourself. I know.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: What did you do for those years?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: At DOC? DOC. I did policy work, sentence calculations, and I stood up the offender management system and did database work. A little bit of everything at the

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: central level. Sentence computation. I don't know to do it. Just complicated.

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I guess. I

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: did, in advance, send a brief PowerPoint. I'm not sure if you want me to put it up or just speak about it as we're going along. It's not as detailed as I've done before in the Pro Board one hundred one as I don't have the twenty twenty five data completely aggregated yet. But I felt that this was more of an overview, more about the board and its functions, not necessarily about our data. Right. And at some point, we may want to

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: get into the data to really understand. So do folks want it up on the screen, or do you want to look at it independently? So

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: to start out, the parole board functions as a quasi judicial body, in that the board conducts formal parole hearings, decides whether an eligible offender should be released on parole, and setting conditions of the release. They also determine if a parolee violated their conditions, which can result in reprimands, modifications of conditions, or revocation of their parole and return to prison or a correctional facility.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yep? So if a person violates parole, what is that process?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So currently, so if somebody allegedly violates a condition of their parole, their parole officer will file a violation report with the board. And at that time, the individual may be incarcerated or they may not. The Department of Corrections has the option to arrest a parolee if they feel that the event that's stemming from the alleged violation stems high enough for the incarceration. Or if they have sconed from supervision, I may issue arrest warrant for their arrest if they have absconded.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So a person who's placed on parole,

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: who sets the conditions for that parolee? The parole board sets the conditions for the parolee. Often DOC parole officers may request conditions and give reasons for that. But ultimately, the board takes in all of the information from the case and assigns conditions. So are parole officers employees of the parole board? No, they are employees of the Department of Corrections. And that is outlined in statute that the Commissioner of Corrections shall provide the supervision of parolees similar to probationers. So

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: board the that decides the alleged break in parole took place or an individual?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: It's a quorum of three board members. Every hearing is made up of three board members. Oh.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How many total on the board?

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Three presentation.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Six, how many? We'll get to that. Hang on. I

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: should know this. Does an inmate need to request the parole hearing or is that automatic when you hit your minimum?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So when you hit your minimum, so at the minimum release date, inmate is eligible for parole. DOC is the one that refers the individual. They provide us with a parole summary and we schedule the hearing upon their minimum. After the determination of their minimum, if they are granted, will go out on parole supervision. If they are denied, then there is a process for subsequent hearings in which the Department of Corrections can bring them back at any time if they feel that they believe the individual should be on parole. Or every year, there is a statutory annual review. And at that time, the individual may write to the board requesting that review to be an interview versus just a paper review.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Alright. So everybody gets a hearing at the minimum?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Yes.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Great. Thanks. Unless you're there for life.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Unless you well, even if you if you're there for life, generally, they still have minimum release dates, unless they have a life without parole. And I don't know. There's very few of those.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: We talked about that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So person needs to reach their minimum to be eligible for parole. And then it goes before the parole board. Parole board will then make that determination. And if they are to be paroled, the parole board sets the conditions. And then it's our field officers, field office under DOC, our probation and parole officers in our field offices, who are employees of the Department of Corrections, the supervise of folks. And then if they know what the conditions, they will know what the conditions of their release of the parole. If there's violations of those, then that goes back to the parole board. And the parole board makes the decision, what's the next step? Is the parole board employed by the Department of Corrections?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: We are an independent entity. However, our budget is a line item in the Department of Corrections budget. You don't answer to the commissioner. We do not answer to the commissioner. The board members, I can move to that slide. I can move in to talk about that a little bit. So the board members are one second. Let me just so the board is comprised of three of five members and two alternates per statute. However, all board members are treated equally. We rotate the seven members throughout the hearing schedule every month. We don't just schedule five and then have the other two fill in. We schedule all seven of them. The board members are appointed by the governor and confirms under the consent of the Senate. So then they go through our Senate confirmation as well. They serve three year terms, where only no more than three board members will expire each year. My position is also appointed is an exempt position appointed by the governor as well. And I serve a four year term.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Is the chair appointed by the governor or is the chair elected by the board?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: The chair is appointed by the governor. The vice chair is elected by the board.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And this is a paid?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So the compensation for the board members that's all right. We can jump right to it. The compensation for the board members is the chair receives per statute. The statute was written effective at the start of the fiscal year in 2006. The chair receives $20,500 annually. Board members receive $100 per diem per working day. So if you are assigned to a hearing day, if you're a board member, you'll receive $100 And then there is preparation work that needs to be done for the hearings because there's a lot of cases. The board members will receive $100 for the preparation day as well.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: How many hearings per week?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So we have three The first three weeks of the month, we have three hearings per week. And then the last week of the month, we have an overflow day. If needed, we can schedule other hearings, and we have a staff meeting. So generally, the chair and the vice chair are split up between every hearing. Sometimes they serve together on a hearing, but at least one of them will be assigned to a hearing. The other board members are assigned at least once per week. So generally, three or four times per month on top of staff meeting.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Can I continue?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And is there a rubric? How long does a typical hearing last? And how do we maintain consistency of review?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So a hearing generally lasts it can vary. A parole hearing generally lasts fifteen to twenty minutes from beginning to end with the interview. Some hearings can be longer because individuals do bring in support folks sometimes to speak on their behalf. There may be longer conversations depending on the nature of the case, the nature of the information that is coming before. Parole violation hearings, we schedule them for twenty minutes. However, we have had hearings in excess of two hours before, depending on evidence that needs to be taken. We've had violations have become more complex over the last few years as we've seen an increase, especially with individuals committing new crimes while they're on parole, which is a violation of their conditions. These have then been turning into mini trials where we're having witnesses come in to provide evidence to the board. Because with the violation, the hearing takes place in two parts. One is the evidentiary piece where the board decides if there was a violation. And then once they decide that, then they go into disposition to decide whether the individual should be continued on parole or returned to incarceration.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And then what kind of training is there on just being consistent with regard to decisions?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So the training so right now, the training hold on, It's outlined. Use in starting the Justice Reinvestment Initiative, the board started using the structured decision making framework as trained by the National Institute of Corrections. I believe there's 11 or we were the eleventh state. I believe there might be 12 states now who are using this framework in their decision making. It is evidence based. I can definitely provide more information to the board, I mean, to the committee about that if you would like. This is an evidence based it doesn't tell you whether to grant or not, but it allows you to look at the aggravating mitigating factors around evidence based release criminogenic areas. The board also a limited number of board members because we do not have a training budget right now. In house, we do as much training as we can, and we look for a lot of free technical assistance that sometimes through a BJA Bureau of Justice Administration grant puts out, where we have gotten technical assistance through the Center for Effective Public Policy, where they come in and done specific role trainings before for the board. Generally, that's once every few years. Every year, are a member of the Association of Paroling Authorities International, which has a training conference every year. We try to at least be

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: able

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: to send myself and the chair to those trainings, because there is also specific trainings for administrators and chairs as well. Last year, I was able to find enough funds in our budget to send a board member as well. That is one budget. That is one item that I'm looking going forward now that I've got more of a handle on the budgetary process. That is one piece that we've never really been involved in our line item of the budget. It's just kind of under VOC, and it seems a little awkward to ask the commissioner for funds for our budget. Then we also the National Institute of Corrections is now reinstituting their new board member training in their chairs board member training, and that is all funded by the National Institute of Corrections. They are having a training this summer, and I'm hoping to get as many new board members because we've had a significant turnover in board members in the last few years due to retirements and changes. And there may be also a structured decision making framework community of practice where National Institute of Corrections gets all the states that are involved in the framework together to look at the tool, look at the continuity, make sure that it's working the way that it's supposed to be working. And then when available, I do ask DOC at times to come over and give presentations. I know tomorrow we may get into that a little bit more with the bill discussion.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So speaking of that, Hillary, were you on the list for testimony not for you to testify, but we're having further testimony tomorrow on H559? Yeah. She'll get the invite. Okay. Results. So you used to pre COVID. You used to physically go to the facilities to have the hearings with the incarcerated person, correct?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So pre COVID, we traveled throughout the state every month. On these nine hearing days, we didn't have an overflow day back then. So nine hearing days, we would travel throughout the state to generally the location where a correctional facility was. And if there was a probation parole site in that town, we would also meet at that site as well. Some probation parole sites did travel to other sites to be more central. But those nine days were in person, split up between the probation and parole site and the facility. With COVID, we pivoted like everybody else. And at first, we were using Skype for our hearings, and now we've moved to Microsoft Teams. All of our hearings have been on Microsoft Teams, and we haven't moved away from that method. We've seen a lot of advantages to continuing on Teams.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Keep it caught.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Yes, all of our hearings are recorded instead of just having audio recording, because before we'd have a tape recorder at all of our hearings. Now they are all video recordings, and they are kept in our files, and they can be requested through a public records request. Some of the advantages we've seen of these virtual hearings are we've had increased victims participating in hearings, where before it was a little bit more limiting because it's more intimidating to go to a correctional facility to provide your input, to potentially see the individual who victimized you. Or just it's intimidating to walk through the correctional facility doors and hear it slam behind you as well. It allows us more flexibility with scheduling. So sometimes if there's a need to get somebody scheduled earlier in the month instead of on the normal hearing day for that site, we can now put somebody else on that schedule. We have tried to make it a much more efficient process.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The one thing that video has really helped in, because you still have to have hearings for folks who are held out of state in Mississippi. Before you had to travel, and now you can do it through video.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Yeah, they actually do it on the telephone. They don't have the video cable down in Mississippi, but they call them for their hearings.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Sounds like a lot of work for $20,000 a year. Do you have trouble with recruiting potential appointees?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's just for the chair.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: That's just for the chair. Did

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you know Dean George? He's a legislator for Middlebury.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Right, right. So it's just for the chair?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: That's just for the chair.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Are these like, is it mostly retirees then?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: That is one of our challenges. Absolutely. One of our challenges is that for a while, I first started, the board was all retirees. It was all retired individuals because They were members.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Of the legislature.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Yeah. They didn't know.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: They And could travel throughout the state and they could be available. Since we've had a little bit of in the last few years, we've had some of those retirees retire from the board. Recruiting for that has been a little bit difficult. We do currently have a couple of members who do have full time jobs outside of the board. One, I was going to go into that a little bit just to give you a little bit of

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: a

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: makeup of the backgrounds of our board members, because that is also very important. Statute really points to having some kind of sorry, I've got my papers all black a little bit. The statute really says right now, it says the governor shall appoint as members persons who have knowledge of inexperienced in correctional treatment, crime prevention or human relations, and give consideration as far as practical geographic representation of the state. So right now, our board is made up of retired law enforcement officers, which our chair has also served in the State House. He is a retired captain from the Vermont State Police as well. We have a retired Department of Corrections staff member. We have a crime victim. We have a licensed mental health professional. We have a self employed individual who has a paralegal background. And then we have an employee of the Vermont Center of Crime Victim Services.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Are there any states where this is a paid position?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: There are many states where this is a paid position. There are many states where the board is a full time. There are states where it's full time. There are states where it's like us. And then there are states where it's hybrid as well, where there's some full time folks and then some not full time.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Kevin? Then

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: Joe, did I miss in the write up whether it's consensus or majority for the board to make a decision?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: You did not miss that, and the write up is majority. Simple majority.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: James?

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: I'm assuming you are, since you have your overflow day and you'd be asking for more. But you guys keep up pretty well with what you have for hearings, or are you behind where you need to be?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So every month, we schedule the amount of requests that we get in for a hearing. Right now, due to the workload right now, we try to keep our hearing days from nine to noon. Sometimes they spill into further. That's why we also use the overflow day because it's a lot of information to take in during a day.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Could you kind of go through what information is there for a particular for one case? Okay. Can you go through what information is there, what the board has to balance in terms of should the person be paroled or not, what risk evaluations you do, and how you arrive at conditions that you place on the parolee.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So the board for parole hearings, the board receives a report created by the Department of Corrections staff members. If the person is incarcerated, the facility caseworker and the field probation full officer will jointly write the report. The report includes risk assessment information from the department's risk assessments. The board used to have their own risk assessment. However, we retired it back in 2020 after a review with the council of state governments because our risk assessment was out of date and not validated anymore. And after the review, it felt that using the Department's risk assessments was a much better way to do it.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So it's risk assessment of what? Is it risk assessment of reoffending? Is it risk assessment in terms of factors that go in that trigger a person for certain behavior? What does that risk assessment really target? I think it targets a little bit of both. So

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: the overall is for risk of reoffending, but it also looks at the I'm not 100% trained up in the DOC's risk assessments. That is one thing on my agenda for this year to get more training in, is the ORAS or the Ohio risk assessment, which does talk about specific criminogenic areas and those factors where they may score higher. The board does get the score from each of those risk areas to know if criminogenic individuals, if their associates are a higher risk to them, if mental health is a higher risk, so forth. We also get the scores for the specific targeted domestic violence and sex offender risk assessments that they do as well. And I think those target both as well. But that, I'm not as educated as I should be in them.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So you look at those factors. What else occurs during a hearing?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So they look at those factors. They look at the previous criminal history of the individual. They don't spend a lot of time on it. But it is a consideration to look at when were the crimes committed? Have they committed crimes? What is the span of crimes that the individuals committed? Really looking at that history, has there been an escalation into those factors? That is the first domain on structured decision making tool. The board looks at the offender's behavior, whether their behavior was if they've been out on previous supervision, community supervision, whether it be probation, parole, or furlough. They look at that and how that went and what came into play there. They look at any programming that they've completed, whether it be incarcerative or in the community, and the programming that they've completed. And then they also talk to the individual about what they've learned from that program and really looking at offender change. And are they showing that they are changing or that they've changed or are in the process of changing their ways of thinking? And then any actions that they can also exhibit as well.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So in the event that parole is denied, what frequency are individuals eligible for reconsideration for another hearing? Every six months?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Is it every six months or a year?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Every year. It used to be either one year or two years. And then during the Justice Rate Investment Bill, we changed it to one year. Individuals can be looked at every year. They can be looked at sooner if the Department of Corrections brings them forward sooner.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So they must be or they can be?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: They must be. The file must be reviewed. They can request for an interview. So every year, we are looking the board is reviewing the file. When the board does get the summary in those cases, when the board does get the summary from the Department of Corrections, if the individual didn't write, but the board reads the summary and says, this person looks like they could be a good candidate for parole, they will then schedule a hearing for the next month to get the individual before the board. And sometimes the individuals have been denying those when the board has said, I want to see you or because they don't want to see the board. Either they don't want to be on parole or we've seen many that don't want to be on parole due to earned time Because parolees don't earn the earned time.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Just

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: going back to the budget. Are you like When we read the budgets that we get right from the administration, my recollection is like you're under DOC, right? Why is that not a separate line item? If it's a separate organization, separate director, it's like different needs?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: That is one of the things that I have been trying to find out. I've been peeling away the onion layer by layer slowly as it took me a little bit to get my feet under me. But I'm slowly peeling that onion because we are also under the umbrella of AHS. I do meet with AHS as well. I think a lot of the parole board independence stemmed from 2005, 2006. I think that's when a lot of things changed. I know that's when Chairman George came on, and there was a look at the whole board. And I think that's when the director may have become exempt and no longer a DOC employee. Yeah, we did a lot of work there.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I think it was before 2004, I think it was the early 2000s. Maybe. We did a whole revamping. It was still under DOC's budget.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Yeah, and I think just one of those administrative pieces that is just kind of lingered where we've just stayed a line item under the budget.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And it could be because they're being supervised by DOC employees. They're being supervised by probation and parole. Now they call them field offices, but they used to be the PMP.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: I just feel like it might be a little more transparent for training and all that, if we could see it separately.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We do have a bill that we might be working on. So we've got ten more minutes because we've got the governor's way to the state. Are victims involved in these parole hearings?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So yes, there there's actually two victim statutes currently that allow for that state that the victims of listed crimes must be informed of hearings. DOC does the notifications of the hearings. We have seen and I can get that data. We have seen an uptick over the last few years where more victims have been either speaking with the board, providing a letter to the board, or providing information through the victim services specialist from DOC. It has been the board really takes the victim's input into their decision making as well, whether they grant or deny or it's maybe just helping to formulate the conditions to also protect the victim's safety.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How many folks do you have on parole right now? Do you know the number?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I think it's right around 600. I looked at the last DOC numbers and I forgot to look at our spreadsheet because our numbers differ a little because we count the ones that are also out of state supervised through the interstate compact. I think there's generally in state approximately 600 on parole, where I believe there's like 200 to 300 on furlough, which is a complete switch to justice reinvestment, which was the hope to have more on parole than on furlough, which has been huge and also increased the work of the board. Because prior to justice reinvestment, the board Parole was seen more as a step down status. So individuals would be more likely to be released from incarceration to furlough. And then once they were stable on furlough, then they would go before the board. Now the board is paroling more out of the facility because it's no longer a step down status. The board is also then seeing more challenging violations that are coming before them as well.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because once a person's incarcerated and they reach a minimum, quite a number of years ago, they were eligible, well, they're also eligible for parole to a certain extent, they were eligible for furlough. Furloughs under DOC, DOC makes that determination whether or not a person is furloughed. If they're furloughed, DOC sets those conditions. And then your P and P office, your field office supervised. They do really well on furlough. I mean, you've got a short leash there. DOC has a short lease where they can pull them right back quickly. They don't have as much freedom out in the community on furlough as they would on parole, but it kind of like a test run. If they do really well on furlough, then they would go before the parole board for parole. What we then shifted is when a person reaches their minimum, they are presumed to be paroled. Doesn't mean they will be, but they are presumed to be paroled. So they don't have to do that intermediate step of a furlough. And there is a whole process in place for that. So it does increase the parole board workload. They can be denied parole. If they're denied parole, they could be placed on furlough. There's nothing to stop them. But once the person reaches their minimum, they are eligible to be released to the community. Doesn't mean they will be, but they are eligible. And when you get a phone call from someone from a constituent or somebody, and so and so has been released or so and so has been with DOC and they're not abiding by their conditions, people will say, well, they're on parole or they're on furlough or whatever. They don't know the status. Really important to find out what the status is.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: If

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: they're on probation, it's the courts. It's the courts that set those conditions for probation. It's the courts that determine whether or not the person continues on probation or is brought into an incarcerated setting. So it's our probation and parole office, our field offices, DOC employees who are supervising them. If they're on furlough, supervised by our field offices, it's DOC that determines that the person violates conditions and gets re incarcerated or continues on furlough. If it's parole and they violate conditions, they're supervised still by our field offices. It's the parole board that will determine do they become re incarcerated or continue being released. It's really important to know those classifications.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: And is the period of time, the length of parole or furlough, is that always the same? Does it vary depending on the

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Probation could be two years, could be four years, could be usually it's two years or four years, and there's a midpoint review.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: So with furlough and parole, they do have the same maximum release date. That is the same for parole and furlough. It's what you'd call the incarcerative sentence, which has a minimum and a maximum versus a probated sentence. So parolees and parolees do have the same maximum that they say.

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: That's based on the infraction or based on

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Nope, that's based on the sentence that was imposed by the court.

[Rep. James Gregoire (Vice Chair)]: The judge tells you ten years max. I might get twelve years max. So we're gonna have different.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But it's your minimum that triggers. It triggers the minimum. You could be on parole. Your sentence could be five to twenty years. You may survive. You were released on parole. Three years into that parole, there's been some pretty significant violations. You still have to come back and serve out those twenty years. That doesn't go away. Yeah.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: And you can subsequently be again or release from parole again, essentially.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So our time is short here and coming to an end, but I'd really like a little bit more in-depth conversation at some point, Mary, with what you're seeing coming before the parole board for cases.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Yep.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What I know we've touched on this in the past, particularly for folks like there is medical parole where someone is ill and could be paroled out on a medical parole status. What hurdles the board is experiencing? There's also hurdles in terms of adequate housing or adequate services that folks need and what you're struggling with with that. So I'd like to get into a little bit more in-depth conversation in terms of what the board is seeing in terms of the high needs of the folks and what needs to be met and what's really becoming difficult to meet. Because that's been percolating around for a couple of years. Yes. And I'd also like to have the data. Yeah, absolutely. So I'd like to schedule some time for that to possibly next week.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: That would work. And if

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you could work with Tate, it would be a good hour. I would say hour and a half maybe. Okay. So I really want the the committee to understand how parole works because it's really, really important. It's a tool. And we have shifted more to parole than furlough. And parole, the person has a little bit more freedom out in the community in terms of where they could work and where they can travel. They can go out of state. On furlough, they can't go out of state. That's a real difference too. And it's a longer leash. They have more freedom than on furlough. So it's really important to understand those different grades for that. Is there other things that folks are interested in to hear?

[Rep. Kevin Winter (Member)]: It's probably included in the data or question that you just are asking. If there's information that determines or that you've seen that causes role to be a failure. I mean, why do people break parole from the statistics that you're seeing?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I will definitely look into and provide some numbers around what conditions the individuals are violating. I think that is the information that would definitely. I think the increase in new, there's been an increase in new offenses. But I don't know if I can get, I can, I might not be able to get together what the type of offenses are, but definitely percolating around housing, inadequate housing,

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: substance use, mental health? And it's not a violation of their conditions of release per se, is it?

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: Sometimes if they have a condition that says you shall not around substance use, we do have conditions around substance use or alcohol. We do have conditions from programming about attending programming, really trying to engage them in the community into those services.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Go ahead and more in-depth. But was today helpful for folks? It's a whole different part of corrections and how they really think about it.

[Mary Jane Ainsworth (Director, Vermont Parole Board)]: I appreciate the invites because that it's been one of my goals is to get the board more of a seat at the table. I feel like the board isn't often involved in these conversations. We don't know.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And also, think budgeting, like what Conor said, why you align item in DOC. We can make our recommendations Appropriations Committee for the general fund budget, and this may be something that we may want to recommend. Parole board needs their own line item outside of DOC. I don't know. But that may be a conversation we might want to have I'll

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: put that in.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: To make a recommendation.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Thank you. Thank you.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you, Mary Thank you all. We've got to go on the floor.