Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Welcome back, folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It is Wednesday, January 7, and we're shifting gears. We're gonna be getting the background and the background information in terms of what's called the Chittenden County accountability call. And this came about that the mayor of Burlington had a conversation with our governor about public safety issues from the activity around the Burlington area. And the administration and city of Burlington figured out a strategy and a pilot project that began, I believe, back in November, but I'm not quite sure, of October, November, and is due to be finished by sometime February. So, I thought it would be good. We do have jurisdiction of corrections, and this does have an impact on corrections, because beefing up some of the programming, supposedly in corrections for some of this. So I thought it would be good for the committee to get the background on how the program was established and what the thinking is behind that and what the process has been to date. So we're going to start with the governor's office, Jay Johnson, who is our general counsel for the administration. And Jay, welcome. I don't know if you've ever been before us, have you?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: No, thank you, madam chair.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Welcome to our hot seat.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: You're a friendly group. That's what I've heard.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So welcome if you could just identify yourself for the record, and I know that you do have a document here as well. Yes. Thank you, madam chair, and happy New Year. Thank you for inviting me.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Am Jake Pershington Johnson, Governor's Stocks Legal Counsel. I am more or less here with Team Leaders Dumont, who can offer more in the way of what's actually happening on the ground. But I thought I would give you an overview of how this docket came to be, and go through a little bit of the data to date, and talk a little bit about some of the things that we have addressed as they've come up. One of the great things about this project has been the ability to address issues and make policy tweaks sort of in real time, as we recognize that some things just aren't effective or not all working well. And with the goal of not just clearing the caseload, which is obviously a big problem, the backlog and the judiciary is a problem. It's having an impact on, I think, what we see in terms of repeat offenses across the state. But to get at root causes of that, right? We're not just talking about clearing cases. We're talking about clearing cases in a way that is addressing some of the root causes driving criminal behavior. Because often, this is high impact, low level offenders in our communities, who often have substance use and or mental health issues. So how do you sort of connect those individuals with the appropriate services, using the tools of the criminal justice system? So anyway, the way that this it it did start roughly and conversations began, I think, in September with respect to the notion of what we were calling in the governor's office, the Community Accountability Court. Obviously, the executive branch is not due courts. That's not our jurisdiction. We are separate branch that enforces the law. So we had a meeting with the chief justice of the Supreme Court, you know, Judge Tomzoni, the chief superior court judge, Terry Corsones, the court administrator, Sarah George, the state's attorney from Chittenden County, him, Rutgers Dumont, the executive director of state's attorneys and sheriffs, Matt Valerio, the defender general, the clerk of the Chittenden County Court, who was essential to the operation of this program, and the Attorney General's Office was also present. So the governor proposed the concept to the judiciary of an accountability court for repeat offenders in Chittenden County, with five or more misdemeanor dockets. The court has started to report on those individuals with five or more dockets in the system generally. And those reports are available, I believe, to the state's attorneys in each county. I don't know if they're routinely provided, but they're available. I'm not sure how that's distributed. But what we did in Chittenden County was essentially look at those offenders with five or more dockets. Some have violent offenses. That's not the purpose of this court. It's mostly to clear the long standing misdemeanor backlog, which isn't addressed because of the higher priority cases. But those were put in there, and then it would be up to the judge and the prosecutor and the defense bar as to what to do with those particular offenders. Do they stay in the regular state's attorneys docket, or do they get moved to this accountability court? Generally folks refer to it as the 3B docket because it's in Courtroom 3B in Chittenden County, but it's a judicial docket. It is not an executive branch program. So the goal, like I said, was not just to clear cases, but to effectively conduct service resistant repeat offenders. Again, high impact, low crime type with the drug treatment, mental health, or other needed services, using the tools of the justice system. So what we proposed was the governor would appoint a special prosecutor using his statutory and constitutional authority. We asked the court about assigning a judge, a dedicated judge. We involved the Defender General and asked about the possibility of appointing or designating a public defender. And then what we really needed was space and court support, and then we need victim services support and admin support. So everyone was at the table to discuss those issues. The state's attorney for Chittenden County, Sarah George, was there and noted the potential availability of a fourth courtroom in the courthouse as a dedicated space. So everybody sort of generally agreed that it was an idea worth considering. Everybody went off and noodled about various logistical issues and took away such sort of operational logistical issues as how we would address the issue of court staffing, victim services and administration for the prosecutor, how we would handle transport. Turns out transport is often the tail that wags the dog in the justice system. How we would handle multi jurisdictional defendants, pretrial supervision, how human services would be added to the process to add high quality drug treatment and recovery service Oh, and sorry, they'd be added to the process. Basically, we had in the courtrooms a clinical service provider and a manager. And then we, and more sort of relevant to your committee, adding high quality drug treatment and recovery services in the DOC facilities. On the assumption that some individuals who will not succeed in the community with treatment and recovery services, can, if appropriate, be sentenced for the crime that they've committed, moved into a DOC setting, and actually receive the services that they need, not just MAT, but a more robust suite of treatment and recovery services. So that would be for folks who are not sentenced, there is a detainee, correct? Well, sentenced, I think generally speaking, it would be sentenced. Detainees are gonna have the availability of MAT, and theoretically, the more robust suite of recovery services. But the longer term individuals, with a sentence, are going to be the ones who I think benefit most from the treatment and recovery services.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I guess I need some clarity. So it's a person coming in, they have five or more documents for misdemeanors. Is it they're coming in to be sentenced? Are they coming in to be they've already been arraigned, and some of them could be out there with a warrant for no show. Yep. And we have some data that will show So all are they sentenced right then and there?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: No, I mean, they're basically, they're in the system, obviously, five or more arraignments already, consuming. Many of these cases were just due for some sort of criminal proceeding to move forward. And this process forced a lot of those cases to move forward. And they relieved the pressure on the state's attorney's office, which was unable to get to them, and was addressing them slowly but surely. But this moved those cases forward in a way that they had not been That no one else really had had the time or the resources to focus on. So basically there are cases that needed to be tried. Right. And they're, you know, so basically those individuals were brought to court for trial and hearings, the hearing process, should they be released on probation? I mean, should they be released into the community with conditions? Most of them already are. Or should they be held bail? Those kinds of determinations were made after hearings. So they're not sentenced? No. So they Yeah. I mean, but they move forward to since to to plea agreements and sentencing. And prioritized.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. But the first step is they're not sentenced. The decision would be whether to hold them with bail or without bail. And the other decision would be, do you release them back to the community with conditions? Many They're of them not sentenced yet. And many of them

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: are already released into the community with conditions successfully or not. Right. And often committing repeat offenses in the interim because their cases just aren't being addressed. I understand that. Okay. I'm trying to figure out what the process where they would go after they go to the three b courtroom. Kim, you

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's not being sentenced. They're not being sentenced. I think that's really important for

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: this committee to understand. Completely get sentenced eventually. Right? I mean, it's a judge No. And a prosecutor.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yeah. But in terms of this pilot project right now, it's only to deal with those cases that there's five outstanding dockets or more. And it's the next step in the process is the court makes the determination. Are they released with conditions until they are sentenced? Till they come up to trial, whatever that may be. Or are they going to post? Are they going to be held without bail or given bail that the person can't meet? Then they become a detainee within our correctional facility, but they are not sentenced.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: That's what I'm trying That's to what I wanna make clear here because then you have, if a person's going into a correctional facility from this courtroom, they are not sentenced. Correct? But they move towards sentencing. Very often, the fact that a person is incarcerated with I mean, basically held on bail, and you have a dedicated courtroom and a system committed to moving the cases, and you have a hearing every week, it's way easier for some people to, at that point, reach a global settlement on, especially when there's a treatment component involved, right? Right there in the courtroom, you have a case manager and a clinical person who is capable of assessing that person, wrapping them in services from the outset, instead of being given a phone number and saying, Here, call this, they might have a bed in three days. And then you have defense bar that is more motivated to reach global settlements in these cases. So as you can, we'll see in the data, many of these cases move towards sentencing rather quickly.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So for those folks with the clinical, you have the clinical manager, you have some of those folks sitting right there in the courtroom to help the person make those connections, like they're going to be released into the community. So it helps them make those connections with their mental health agency or with Turning Point or whatever. Does that, those clinical managers, if the person is then going to be detained, do they connect with corrections to let corrections folks know that they need to have these specific services as well while they're in a correctional facility as a detainee? I would have

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: to ask. I would have to follow-up with DOC and find out what that process is, the communication between the AHS service providers and DOC services.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Society. Provide them more services while they're in an incarcerated setting. Correct. Yes. So how does DOC know? How does WellPath know with the MOUD that these folks have gone through the specialized court that they need to beef up this programming and services for these detainees? How does DOC know that and how does WellPath know that?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I would have to inquire. I mean, that really hasn't that particular the thing about bail is it is moving cases toward settlement and sentencing. Many of those cases go, basically start with probation in the community. We just They haven't been sentenced. They will be sentenced is the important-

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Some of them- might just

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: say- Did

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: you introduce yourself?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: Okay, sorry. Tim, we just do one for the Department of Trade Attorneys and Sheriffs. So all the communication I happen to know, even for the detainees or the sentenced folks, it's very streamlined now. So whether you're detained, penned, or you get sentenced as a part of this court, the communication is happening right now from AHS to DOC so they understand those needs.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And WellPath?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: It would be that if WellPath had an information, you have to make sure agreements are in place. But the prosecutor, in this case, Zach Wade, who's our shared prosecutor in our interference agreement, is also part of that process of communicating the needs with the defense counsel. So whether they're detained, waiting trial, and they picked it up in the process, or they end up getting sentenced, about 300 people have had their cases, or 300 cases have been disposed, about 400 now. Whether So it's detained or sentenced, that communication is happening in a very dedicated streamlined way. And so whether they're detained or sentenced, communications flow from AHS within the service piece to DOC as far as we know.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I was aware a month ago that was not happening because WellPath had no clue for folks that were coming in whether or not they were going through the specialized court or not for MOUD. So they were beefing up the program for everybody because they didn't have that information.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: And then we can follow-up with the special prosecutor to get a more, maybe a flow of how that happens, and we can follow-up specifically about well pathed care.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Yeah, and I think I obviously need to speak with DOC so that we are all understanding the same thing. If DOC is coming in to tell you one thing about what WellPath is doing, obviously WellPath is a contractor of DOC. We have modified the WellPath contract. If your concern is this link, then I can ask that specific question of DOC. So for the folks Because right now, the accountability court has been really more said, hasn't been focused on It has been focused on to the extent individuals have mental health and substance use needs. Once they moved into the DOC system after sentencing, they are receiving services that they have not effectively had access to before. And that's mostly in the substance use area. So our focus too has just been on, again, more effectively connecting individuals with services in the community.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So of those folks, you got two pass here after the court. They've gone before the judge. They could be released back to the community waiting for trial. How many of those folks who had gone back to the community waiting because they haven't been sentenced, waiting for how many of those folks have come back to be sentenced? Do you have that data or

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: is it too new in the pilot project? All of these folks are in the system now. They've all committed five or more crimes. They are being brought in for trial. So they are either already out on conditions or they are violating their terms of conditions or committing repeat offenses and having bail imposed and being put in the DOC system. We can show you how many resolutions there have been. So we started with approximately 80 cases of individuals with approximately 800 to 900 cases. And we have moved forward and resolved 43 cases and about four I'm sorry, individuals and about 400 cases. And we can show you that data. And how were they resolved? Were they put on probation? We have that data, we can show you that there's a really pretty diverse breakdown. Some are incarcerated, some are put on probation, some, it turns out that this program shows that there's a really nice synergy with the treatment court. Some are moving into treatment court. Some are determined to be not competent to stand trial, and they are getting orders of non hospitalization. Several are just not competent to stand trial and not moved into any system and released. That represents a threat to the community because there is no resolution right now for what to do with those individuals. So there is something called split to serve, where the individual was served some probation and some jail time. But there is a pretty diverse breakdown of where those cases are going. We can show you that in our materials.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Yeah, sure. First, anything we can do to reduce the backlog is so important. So really appreciate creative thinking on some of this. Definitely if it's successful, would be interested in looking at Washington County as well, obviously. But I did dictate so much of what we do in corrections. Because how do we make long term decisions about the population? No prison? Well, the detainee numbers are so high, right? It's really tough. Question I had though, as we connect folks to services in Chittenden, what percentage of the numbers you're talking about would be folks who are unhoused? Because I'm thinking getting a roof over their head is probably top priority to make sure we reduce reoffenses. And so is there a link with sort of cots, is it up in Burlington? Or just make sure people are

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: There is a housing shortage, and we know that housing is a problem. And we know that many individuals are unhoused. But of this entire population, not all of them are unhoused. We know from the chief, when we started this project in October, that he had 20 sort of major repeat offenders. All but one were unhoused. Those individuals, many of them are not in the court system because they're not competent to stand trial. And they're also not in the AHS system because they are determined to not require a clinical level of services. So there's definitely a gap there in how our system is addressing individuals with mental health and substance use needs. There are also individuals with developmental disabilities, brain injuries, dementia, many things that we actually aren't equipped to address when they're living unhoused in the community. So there definitely are gaps, and I think that our human services system struggles with that, but many of them aren't intersecting with our service providers or with the justice system. I mean, they intersect with the justice system, but to the extent that the police officers know that the person has been determined one or more times that a person is not competent to stand trial, they are not generally going to arrest them and bring I mean, you can arrest them, maybe lodge them overnight, but they're going to have to be released. It's a justice issue, right? A due process concern. So we definitely have gaps that we have identified. That's why I think part of what we are looking at here is addressing the root causes. So while housing may be an issue and we can't provide them with housing immediately, if we can get them into a long term drug treatment and recovery program, they have shelter. And if we can move those individuals effectively into recovery housing longer term, that would be great. And if after a certain period of time, they are capable of moving into an apartment, Theoretically, we have resources at AHS that can match people with housing resources. So it is not a, is this program gonna fix the problem of homelessness? It's not, but it's going to address the problem of homelessness by when you have individuals in the community who are unhoused, are committing crimes, say repeat retail thefts, you're gonna get those individuals into the court system, which has the tools to incentivize a connection with services. Sometimes that can be in the community. Obviously, the rates of success are gonna be much lower for individuals who are unhoused. But if we can move them into longer term settings where you have shelter and a system that's meeting their treatment needs, it's gonna be more effective. But you're never gonna get them there without the justice system involvement, because there is no incentive for those individuals to seek those services.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Thank you.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Keep going on your testimony. We can interrupt. Know. No, interesting questions that Yes, there are You raised some very interesting questions that, as where I have been sitting in this process, have not considered. And obviously, some connection is being made with either services in the community or treatment in DOC facilities, but I don't have all those details on the DOC facilities. Anyway, we Oh, maybe this is a good time. I did also want to say that we have had some great public service in this process. Our prosecutor, Zach Waite, Judge Maley, who was appointed by the court, Josh O'Hara, who is the Chief Public Defender in Chittenden County. They have all done a wonderful job, I think, taking this very seriously. I think trying to come to the right decision for the individuals involved in the system and have done a great job collaborating in a way to reach those. Because when we first started this, October 20 was the first day of the court, AHS services were not in place. The defense bar has a contractor it uses called Therapeutic Works Inc. That nominally steps in to provide some sort of clinical assessment. And then we were trying to get AHS into the system, and it was sort of a disruptive, rocky start in that area. But once everyone sort of got comfortable with who was getting the information, what was being provided, how were the services being connected, the clinical service providers and the case managers were able to work together to work out a really smoother way of assessing the needs, doing the case management, doing transports to some of the healthcare facilities, which the DOC contractor has been a very important piece of that. So we've had some great public service in this project. And hopefully, as ports and counties move forward with something that looks like this, you have this kind of commitment to these kinds of outcomes, I think. But I think it's important to recognize the individuals who really have been key to this process.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So is this the judge? Was the judge a currently sitting active judge or did the judge come out of retirement? He came out of retirement. He came out of retirement. So if we expand this to other counties in the state, which I know that there's interest from those local counties. If they can do it in Chittenden County, why aren't they doing it down here? In my world, that's in Southern Vermont, mean there'd be more need for a judge in each other county that would be dedicated. And granted the cases are going through those courts in those counties anyway, so would there be more pressure on a dedicated judge in some of the other counties that this gets expanded. Is there also a dedicated state prosecutor from the state's attorney's office for this? Or is it someone Also And the same with the Defender General, is it a dedicated defense counsel, or is it someone new?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: So this is a future looking question, obviously. We have thought a lot about this. And the thing is, given our 14 county system of justice and the way that court administration generally works, it's gonna depend county to county. We have counties who are interested, who are expressing the desire and the ability to move forward with this now, with very few other resources. The court is stepping up, the court has found space, the prosecutor is able to dedicate a person. There are counties where the caseload has been managed way more effectively. Are, as Tim was explaining it to me, in Chittenden, we were clearing a lot of dead wood, cases that have been sitting for a long time. In other counties where cases are moving, it's gonna be a different kind of process. So it's really gonna depend on the availability of dedicated court space, the clerk and the judge resources. Some judges will be able to take this up. Some are taking it up now on their own initiative. In other counties, may need, I've heard in Washington County, you may need a dedicated judge to come out of retirement or otherwise, because their cases are stacked floor to ceiling every day. So it is gonna depend on the availability of state's attorney resources, the prosecutor, the admin and the victim services resources. Some of that will be overtime, some of that will be available because they're more effective at managing their caseloads. Not that the Chittenden County isn't, it's just that Chittenden County has a huge number of cases and resources are limited. And they have a lot of major crimes right now that they have to address. It's just that other counties are moving misdemeanors. It's gonna depend on the availability. Mean, a key, key, key to this has been the human services component. And I think that that will depend on the availability of regional service providers, AHS coordination. AHS has done a great job stepping up and adding district office supervision coordination with the local provider. So it's gonna depend on each county as to what the service availability is. The location, this is transport. Again, like I said, the tail wagging the dog. Some of that's gonna depend on the location of the DOC facilities, because in a county like Chittenden, we had lined up basically, right now we have the transport deputies. They provide all of the transport services to and from the courthouses. And there was a concern immediately that it would not be sufficient with the addition of this court. Well, turns out And so what we did was we created essentially a phone tree using Vermont Emergency Management, who would line up the backup resources if needed. In Chittenden County, it was needed once, and I think the state's attorneys and sheriff's office coordinated it because, but a lot of that's logistical. The providers are right there, the facilities are right there. When you go to a county like Washington County, where there is no facility, and the women's facility is in Chittenden, and the men can be anywhere in the state, you have a greater challenge with coordinating transport resources. And you have a very small police department and a very small sheriff's department, and if one of those is out or leaves or retires, you end up with those kinds of the issues that are driving the backlog where you can't have a hearing because there's no transport. So that is definitely an issue that we need to think about, and that will move county to county. Rutland will be in a better position because Rutland has a male facility and their police department is more than willing to step up and do the overflow services. So it's really going to depend on county to county. And then you have Hopefully, well, there was a certain amount of negotiation that was required with the defense bar in Chittenden County. And things worked very well, because we had a leader there in Chittenden County who was working well with our human services, with their own contractor, with the prosecutor and the judge. Hopefully a lot of that will not have to be renegotiated in other counties, but it may. So it is gonna depend on the relationship of the defense bar to the prosecutor's office, with the judges, those kinds of things. So it is a 14 county system. Some uniformity of things like scheduling could help address the transport issues. So, I mean, are some things like coordination of security services. Does a transport officer have to sit in a courtroom the entire day? Or can a sheriff drop off an individual with a sheriff who's providing security in the courtroom and leave and come back. There's lots of logistical coordination things that we could do better, that this experiment has shed some light on, for our office at least.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Question, Shawn? Go ahead.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: It seems like you have established a template though, right?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I would say, as a starting point, absolutely, yes.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: And that is super positive. Right. Is there is there any feedback from the police department in Burlington right now? Have have or have we gotten any feedback from, like, Church Street, you know, and how things I know there was a big state police presence. I saw it during the holidays. How how are is there any like, that's all. Is there any like, are we getting anything back from them right now?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I'm meeting weekly with the special prosecutor and with Sarah George, the state's attorney and Tim. And she is reporting that things are going are proceeding very well. Like, she's very pleased with how it's going. I think you'd have to talk to the chambers of commerce and others who are really on the ground, the chief of police. I've asked this question myself. I believe that they're encouraged by the results of the accountability court. The 3B docket. I don't want to be disrespectful of the judiciary, but they prefer docket. And so yeah, it's definitely a template. I do believe that there is some positive feedback coming out of Chittenden County and probably there are better people to speak to that. Please.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Have we experienced a lower repeat offender?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Well, that's a good question. We have, and I asked that recently, I think four people who have been released on probation maybe have been back to the court. So it is too short of a time to tell how we're gonna do on individuals who are sentenced and released on probation. What we do know is if individuals are released into the community pretrial with the assumption that they will connect the services and do not, and they're brought back the following week, it is possible that the judge will then hold them on bail so that they essentially move forward with their trial process a little bit faster. Essentially, once an individual is sentenced, the terms of probation or the terms of incarceration are more clear and enforceable when it comes to adhering to conditions.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Brian?

[Rep. Brian Minier (Member)]: I guess it's sort of a follow on to Shawn's comment about is this a template. But if this is coming to an end in Chittenden County in February, I don't know if there are plans or what do we expect or what do we hope or does this teach us that we can do this again elsewhere? Does it teach us that we need to do it again there? Does it teach us that we need more resources in general? Because on legislators day, several of us got to sit in the courtroom. And there was this grand difference between being in the regular court and they would try to reschedule the next meeting and it would be three months out. And then you go to 3 D and we can meet next week. It was like the folks who worked on the court were surprised by how fast it was happening. And so what do we do come February, I guess?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Well, so that's a great question. I mean, I think that this was obviously a pilot that everyone envisioned would be ending January into February. I think that right now, the judiciary and the state's attorney's office are talking about how to continue it. It will not probably be in this form, obviously not with these same individuals, at this time anyway. The idea is you do have to move the cases faster. You have to have hearings that aren't pushed out longer than thirty days. It is a template for that, for how to succeed. I mean, here's a single prosecutor with a caseload of over 800 cases, and is moving the cases. So by reaching global resolutions under a certain set of circumstances, we are not going to be able to always throw more resources at these issues. We need to be able to think about how to do better with the resources we have. Counties like Rutland are putting a lot of thought into that. And I think Chittenden is doing the same right now. So it is gonna be, how you move forward without leaving a giant hole? It's definitely something the judiciary is concerned about. And you could talk to the judiciary about that. And again, it is their docket. And how they manage it is going to potentially vary from county to county. But right now, I know that they are grappling with the issue of how do you not leave a hole. We, in the executive branch, are more focused on how does pretrial supervision function more efficiently? How do we do a better job providing connecting individuals with mental health services and substance use treatment services? And what about housing? And what about shelter for people with substance use issues? Things like that. The executive branch has always been focused on the things that we can do. This transport issue has been just something that is, I mean, I think baffling. It's gone on for years and years and years, and there have been reports and we restructure. But I think generally speaking, that is an issue that has to be grappled with because the court will say transport is a crisis. But I think the court also has a role. The judiciary needs to think about something like mandatory block scheduling, because transport will always be an issue for the court if a person has to schedule their day nine to five. Anyway, think that there is opportunity, and there are some places where it's going to have to be a county by county effort, I think, at this point. The executive branch does not have the idea for the I mean, we do have an idea for the next thing because a county has stepped up to say, we want to do this, and we have the means, and we have thought about how.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Is that Rutland? Is that what you're talking about?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Yeah, and I don't want to speak for anybody, but they are a county we are talking about this with very seriously.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: And

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I know Bennington, sorry, Wyndham is interested. And again, like I said, there individual judges who are using a similar approach in their counties. I think in Orleans, I think Judge Treadwell is thinking about these kinds of issues. So there are individual judges who are thinking about this. But I do know that the judiciary is very interested in how to proceed.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I'd like to kind of shift now to DOC, because that's really our focus. For the pretrial supervision, that got moved from the Essex Orleans County over to Chittenden. It is DOC that supervises folks who are out on conditions. They haven't been sentenced, waiting for trial. They haven't been sentenced. And they are being supervised in the community, either through telephone calls or actual person to person check ins. Some of them may be on electronic monitoring, depending. How is the pretrial supervision working? And is that putting pressure on DOC? Is it working there, Chittenden,

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: this pilot project? I think, actually, what I've heard is, it is often challenged by the defense bar as violating a defendant's Fifth Amendment rights. Because of the way, and Tim can correct me on anything I'm saying here, is because of the way the statute is written, there's required to be an

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: order For the pretrial supervision statute Yes. To begin

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: So there is an ORAS, which is a WISC assessment that's required. It provides a lot of information, which the defense, I think, believes should not be available to the prosecution, and maybe even the judge. So I don't know. And again, you'd have to sort of speak to the people who are doing this work. But if an individual is going to be held on bail, then the mood shifts and they will favor pretrial supervision. There are a couple of

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: cases If they're held on bail, they're going to be in an incarcerated setting, correct?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: They would be, but the defense counsel at that point would say, No, no, no, your honor, rather than holding them on bail, we can agree to pretrial supervision. So it sort of works a couple of ways. And then So I think it works in so far as it goes, but I think it's only been used a very few times. Maybe not a handful, as far as I understand. We did have to, however, make a couple of tweaks that we learned about from the prosecutor. So the statute had certain eligibility requirements, and DOC had imposed additional eligibility requirements, including individuals with multi jurisdictional cases. Not cases, individuals with cases in more than one jurisdiction were not eligible for pretrial supervision. That was an initial hurdle with one of the individuals being considered for pretrial supervision. And we reached out to DOC and said, Why do you have additional criteria for eligibility? And they revisited that. We've taken a look at some of our own policies that also have created hurdles to the use of the program. It wasn't widely used in Orleans, I was never completely sure if there was one or multiple reasons for that. Now we're in Chittenden with a bigger, more viable population, more probation, supervision resources, and it's not being used, because I do understand that there is this Fifth Amendment objection that's often raised. And you would have to talk to the prosecutor in the defense bar, because I am not a practitioner, and they're the ones who could speak to their concerns.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We're gonna have the defendant general in at some point just come to him today. So for those folks who do end up incarcerated waiting for trial, is incarceration helpful for them? I would say,

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: to my knowledge and in my opinion, I would say it takes them out of a community setting where they are not succeeding. Say they're unhoused, they're using substances, and they are committing repeat retail thefts. That person, well, and I'm sure many would disagree, but in my view, that person in an incarcerative setting, where they can receive care, shelter, MAT, and stabilization is in a better position.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's an up to your place for them to be, is

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: that what That's what I would argue. Our deals, and you all do this work, our facilities are in AHS for a reason, and that's because they are deemed to be rehabilitative. And if we're really going to be rehabilitative, let's be rehabilitative. Individuals should do better in an incarcerative setting when they're coming from a place that is so unstable that they are forced to commit crimes to survive, or who are so unstable that they have no incentive to stop using substances. So it's kind of a, in my opinion, if it's rehabilitative, they should be in a more stable, healthier setting. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: if that's really the goal of incarceration, then we really need to look at how DOC can provide those services. And we really need to look at our facilities to be able to. There's a lot of limitations in this building itself in terms of DOC providing that. And currently their population is increasing, which is putting more pressure on the system to provide those services. So how do we address this? I mean, people need those services while they're incarcerated. How do we provide this? We need to support DOC's budget and DOC's DOC's world. Right? Yes.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I mean, a lot of these cases, the detention cases obviously are a huge component. Half of those are violent offenders who are being held without bail. They are a danger to the community and have to be in a secure setting. Half of those people are individuals, I think, like some of the individuals that are being added through the accountability court system, their cases should be moving. They should not be held indefinitely for minor crimes, and not only moving and cleared, but done in a way that addresses root causes. Some of that should be ultimately DOC burden, some of that should be community service provider burden. And the same question is true: How are community service providers doing? AHS is a very well funded agency. How do we provide those services in the community more effectively? I don't know if you want to get to the data, but you can see that And we can skip right to our pie charts, figures four point one and four point two, which are, of course, don't have page numbers, but I'd say it's about two or three pages from the back. Basically, these are It's a big pie chart. This is a breakdown of the resolutions of the cases. So right now, and you would have seen from the information in the beginning, we started in October with eight seventy eight active dockets.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I want to make sure we're all on the same page. We're on this page, right? Yes.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: So just some table setting. There's individuals and there's dockets. So right now, in this eight accountability court offender assignment is individuals. And right now we have cleared 43 individuals with multiple cases. So of those, 10 have been incarcerated, 12 have been released on probation, four of those are on probation in the treatment court. So you can see that not all of them are in the DOC system. Split to serve is some time in prison and then some time in the community. ACS is a community program. Resolved ONH, those individuals are in the community with some connection to mental health services. Incompetent to stand trial, three of those just in the community. And then other, these are cases that were dismissed by the court or in one case, one individual passed away. The assignment by docket is the number of dockets represented by all of these. So the individuals incarcerated, there were ninety five cases. Those on probation, 98 cases and so on.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: 95 cases for 10 incarcerated?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Yes. Okay. Yes. So you can see, I mean, one problematic number there is the incompetent to stand trial is three individuals with 36 cases. Those cases are dismissed. Yes.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: What happens to those people? Where are they? They're in the committee.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Which one? Are they incompetent to stand trial? Wait a minute. That's not good. Wait until there's a forensic unit proposed.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: There's an email sitting for you right now.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Come on, listen.

[Unknown Committee Member]: The only reason we're doing any of this is because this cost exceeds the cost that the innocent people are being charged. Otherwise, we just let everybody do whatever they wanna do. Somebody's gonna pay for it one way or the other. Either the people who are being offended or the offenders. This is lower cost than those people who are being offended.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Right. Yeah, there's a cost to victims and to communities and to families and to children. So I think that's correct. There are a lot of impacts on society that are not as easy to quantify as how much it costs to assert a person in an carceratic setting. But do have, like the chair said, you have lots of limitations with aging facilities and lack of I a proposal and all that understand all that. But right now, my concern is the security and the welfare of the communities of Vermonters, writ large. Victims, families, children, and the impacts on those individuals. Our stores, the economic welfare of our communities. I think all of that is relevant to considering. And an approach like this, and again, we'll see. I think that's an important thing, because we will keep track on, of these 12 in probation and the four in treatment court. How do they do? If otherwise, their cases would have been cleared, because they were all misdemeanors, and they were all released. That's probation on term. Think that at least there's an effort here to connect people with the services that they need, address the underlying causes. Addiction is a very difficult it's a process, and relapse is part of the process, and we get that. And I think that that's why sometimes the individuals with probation are going to be sometimes in long term care facilities. And that's part of their treatment. Like I said, there's a continuum. This is something the governor has sought last year, seeking again this year, is more funding for this idea of a continuum of care. More crisis fed in our communities, more long term substance use treatment and recovery services, more recovery residences and apartments, and more resources for more robust treatment in the DOC facilities. It's a continuum, and people will go in and out of those settings.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So one of the key components of this whole pilot project is to make sure that our providers have open slots to the folks who are being sent there by the court. How is that playing out? Are there enough open slots within our providers, be it mental health, be it turning point, it whatever? I know it's very concentrated in Chittenden County. There's a lot of providers there, very close to courthouse, very close to DOC, very close to the whole system. That's not the case in other counties. But there are open slots with our providers so that these folks can go right there immediately instead of waiting three, four months. Right now, that's my understanding of how this work is

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: working. That specific piece, correct? Yes. And so you'd have to talk to probably somebody from A. H. S. About how specifically that's working. But according to the prosecutor, and again, you'd have to talk to Zach Waite, the prosecutor, and maybe Tim has some insight. But it's my understanding that that has been the real value add, is the individuals, the clinical assessment and the case management right in the courtroom. And those cases, those individuals are being connected with resources.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm sitting here, I've been around the barn a few times. We did this way back, only 2014, 2015 with Justice Reinvestment II. And this was a result of work that the state did with the council's state governments to really start addressing folks with misdemeanors, with repeat misdemeanors. It wasn't felonies. It wasn't violent crime. It was property crimes. And we had folks in the courtroom in the counties that would immediately hook that person up with social services that was needed. And that went for a few years. It was very successful. Then it did not continue to be funded and it fell apart. So we've been there and done this in the past and then it does not continue to be funded and it falls apart. So what I'm hearing, I support. I mean, are intercept models. Yep. In our criminal justice system where you can intercept at certain points when a person touches the judiciary system, the court system, and diverts a person. We've done this, And then it doesn't continue to be funded, and then it falls apart. So what's happening here in Chittenden County has already happened before when it was a good good ten or twelve years ago.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I don't have any understanding or knowledge of a prior system where individuals were embedded in the courtrooms, or that was the case. Justice Reinvestments has been funded every year, to my knowledge. There was a number agreed upon, and that is funded every year. It's supposed to go to DOC services. I don't know how that's allocated, but that's a legislative appropriation determination.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This was different than what we're seeing now with justice reinvestment. This was previous. It was really targeting folks that were coming through the cycle over and over and over again. And we worked with the council state governments. And they were really targeting these misdemeanors, nonfelony misdemeanors, to really work with getting those folks hooked up immediately with services. And it was successful. And it was targeted. And then it didn't continue to be funded. Then it fell apart. So this this is new, this pilot project, but it's not new thinking because we've

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: done this.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: No. I'm not claiming new thinking. I'm just saying this is something that, you know, it it it is not there's no genius behind this. But the fact is, we did a pilot, we dedicated resources, and we saw positive results. And I think what's different, and perhaps I'm incorrect, if this has been tried before, is this embedded human services in courtrooms. We did that. We did that.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So Then the question and is you can't answer this at this point because the governor's budget hasn't come out. Is there going to be continued funding for this statewide? And I

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: know you can't answer that. Well, I spoke to it earlier before. It's not a statewide one size fits all solution. And there will be ways to do this within existing resources in other counties. And you all have the BAA, I'm assuming. The BAA had some asks for overtime for the retired judge. They're not exorbitant resource costs. There were other costs associated with the overtime for the state troopers in Burlington, but I think in terms of the court itself, the costs were not exorbitant. And to the extent that they're going to vary county by county, I think that you need to think about it maybe more as a BAA issue, not as a what is the governor going to put in his budget question.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: So my question to you is, do you feel that it would be better to leave this system in place, rather than have it go away in February?

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Well, I mean, it's dedicated to Chittenden County right now. I think that at some point, like the chair mentioned, and we know, is that counties are asking for the same thing. Not every other county. Other counties are thinking about how to do it, Other judges are thinking about how to do it. But I think the most well resourced county in the state should be able to figure out how to make this fly. Some of it is organizational, some of it is philosophical.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: So it's not all financial driven.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: I think that that's right. I think some who have seen the success can figure out how to do it ongoing. It may not be every single day in the courtroom like we have now, but if you have once a week or once every couple of weeks, and you have the dedicated time, the dedicated space, you know, you can find the resources and make it work. Mean, that's what you're going to you know, but there may be inevitably some additional costs. I don't think we can even we assume that this is a $5,000,000 budget item right now. I mean, don't know that there's evidence for that.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: I

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: know, Jay, you've been on the hot seat for quite a while here. Are questions, thoughts, comments? Because I know I wanna give time for Tim to come. Yes. And then we'll have the judge die as well. Judge Sweeney will be in at some point as well, as well Matt Valerio, the general. Yeah.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: And they have been great to work with. I mean, I think that's an important also an important point to make, is this effort has required a lot of collaboration and understanding and communication. But generally, I think, in my observation, a lot of what happens is things fall apart and people point to the next criminal justice stakeholder and say, Well, that wasn't me, was them. And I think that there are opportunities for working together where there's less of that, because there is a lot that's contributed to by every stakeholder in the criminal justice system. And I think if everyone sort of recognizes that it's not just what their role is and say, This is where the line stops, and your problem is over there, and we're not going to help you address it, that's where I think we run into issues.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Anything else from committee members?

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Very helpful.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: Thank you, Jim. You.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Sure. No, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. It wasn't that bad. No. You've all been very nice.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You. She'll be available tomorrow at one So Tim, why don't you come on up? It's such a rue here.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Alice, just a reminder, it's little air.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: I just find the meeting right now.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Oh. We're just

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: You got to get out

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: of it. That way you can. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: we do have Judge Luneau on as well.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: He's behind us. Great.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And I know he's been listening, and I do wanna allow time for the judge as well.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: I think I'll be pretty quick because she the data mean, Tim Luneau, Department of State attorneys and sheriffs. For the record, welcome back. Good to see everybody. And I did tell Jake this is one of my favorite committees to be in, and that wasn't mine.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, it lasts. Right? Yeah.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: And, you know, I think one of the things I've worked I got my start in the Department of State Attorneys and Sheriffs in the Chittenden County State Attorney's Office interning for Sarah George. And whether I descend it or ascend it to my current role, I'm very proud of where it started in the department. And this is one of the most important things that I've had the privilege of working on. And it has, to your point, Mr. Sweeney, has been successful. We're not gonna say mission accomplished, because that's a dangerous term. It's mission in progress. And replication is not duplication in the other counties. We have individual judges who are people with their backgrounds and perspectives, and this is very partnership driven. And so when now, we've had the right players in the room. We've had excellent motivated judiciary, excellent motivated defense counsel, and prosecutor that I just wanna highlight because I know I've talked to you about it, madam chair. But the state law provides that we can share employees on special projects. So we've been sharing the time at no cost additional for deputy state's attorney Wade to be a special prosecutor and a deputy state's attorney at the same time. There's a wonderful senator Leahy, state's attorney Leahy here, a decision that allows for special prosecutors to do exactly the work that's happening when this was challenged better part of sixty years ago. And there was a special prosecutor appointed by the governor at that time to help clear a large amount of pending cases in Chittenden County. So we have been through this before in terms of Chittenden County. So in Ray Dupleson is a very interesting four paragraph decision from the Supreme Court. I'm happy to provide. It's on the joint justice website as well. But some of the numbers just really speak for themselves. But it's about that collaboration. Every Monday, the transport team meets with the special prosecutor in the court. They're talking about priority. Every Tuesday, we meet as the executive branch entities to talk about how's it going, where do we where do we need to do better. Jay can work with AHS. I work with the state's attorney and the special prosecutor. And if we need to send messaging out to the transport team, we do that. So it's all very collaborative. But 878 dockets to start with at 100 people. We now have about 40 something people in this program, and we've moved about 400 dockets, which is a huge success. In some counties, that would clear almost the entire pending list. So it's an incredible amount of work. And one of the fascinating intangibles is that this prosecutor was able to go like this for a brief time. He's coming back to Washington County February. To homicide, aggravated domestic assault, aggravated sexual assault cases that he's he was able to focus over here. No depositions required for most of these cases. Focus, focus, focus like a social worker on these cases. And I have told him that I'm voluntelling him as a group here, that he should come before you all at some point and talk about his experience. Because I think you're gonna gain a lot from hearing from him about what it has meant for him as a prosecutor and a former defense attorney to work in this environment. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm gonna play devil's advocate.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Yes. Please do.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: How is that sustainable for one person to be able to do those two different processes and put a wall towards one of them? How how sustainable is that?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: I think part of our unified court system, which judge Zonay can talk about, is we have our felonies and our misdemeanors in the same spaces. This pilot has allowed us to there are felonies that have found their way into this specialized docket, but it's allowed dedicated time, and you summed it up better than I had actually heard anyone sum it up. This course space allows us to come back weekly instead of thirty, sixty, and ninety days. So that it's it's a it's a virtual wall, and it was a time period for him, and it's not sustainable unless we figure out a way to figure out the space and time, which means people with space and time in these physical spaces.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It may mean more folks need to be hired within the state's attorney's world as well as the defender general's world.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: And it could be. Yes. There there is some of that. And as Jay said, there's also the administrative fall through is we have to send discovery in all these cases, whether it's a Ring doorbell camera or security camera from a retail organization. The victims have to send notices by law. And so there's a whole trickle down of work. And I just wanted to say, because Jay mentioned it, Sarah George's office in our department has supplied admins and victim advocates to support this docket on top of their additional work. But it's all the same cases. Those cases are just in a different courtroom now. But that work has just the speed of This is one of the resource pieces. It may need more individuals, but it may also mean more It could also just mean more dollars to pay people to work a little bit longer and extra to get those notices out on a quicker turnaround, because we're not waiting ninety days for this docket. And that has allowed us to turn around dispositions. In my opinion, with success, not just for the for the victims to have shorter adjust, where the defendants not wait three years from our retail bank. I mean, that's it's not fair, and it's no one's fault in particular. It's a systemic issue. But defendants, if you get picked up and you're presumed innocent, as we all know, you shouldn't have to wait for three years for your case or two years. And for Judge Maley to say, I will see you next week, and I will see you every week after that until this is done for the sake of this pilot thing. Judge oh my gosh. Don't let him know I said this. Tom Oliver, representative Oliver. Almost said judge Oliver. Can we record it? Yes. Please don't. No. It's already recorded. You'll watch it later. He said this is how court should be happening in general. And I could not agree more because if we can figure out a way, and maybe I'm gonna use the county of Jay County. It's without calling it out Jay County. Maybe they only have 500 pending cases. They have two prosecutors and they file 25 cases a month. There is a county that's very similar to the Super Bowl. Maybe they don't need a full time prosecutor and they don't need a full time judge all the time. Drop a judge in every other week or once a month, have that dedicated court space and time where you're not talking about murders and felonies,

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: that sort of thing,

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: with one of those two prosecutors staffing it. So maybe not additional prosecutor in every county, in every space. And even in some of the bigger counties, they're not in need of an additional prosecutor for this work. But just the space and time where those major violent cases are not coming in and competing with it with this topic has been very successful. And, you know, state's attorney George put out a press release earlier this week or the end of last week. They cleared every single gun related incident from 2022. And I and in speaking with her, part of that has been her ability to focus over these last two and a half, three months on some of the violent cases. And that's an incredible success story for Chittenden County that we've been able to move these cases at great success and some of the violent cases. They still have a large over 20 pending homicides in Chittenden County, the most in the state. So those serious things are still coming. 35 homicide filings have occurred this year alone, which is a lot. 2022 was the high high watermark for homicides in the state, as far as I know. But that's still happening. There's 16 pending homicides in Rutland, 12 in Caledonia, I think 18 or so in Bennington. And that just puts so much pressure. Even if you don't have repeat offenders coming through your system, which we do across the state, or people with repeated instances of criminal conduct. Those things put so much pressure on county and on judges to say, well, I'd love to social work this case with representative Casey. But I have to deal with this homicide that's come in. We have five motion hearings with 17 police officers that showed up at the scene of this shooting that happened or something like that. So I think we are in the process of thinking about how this looks in other places. And sometimes it's a drop in approach or a SWAT approach. And other times, it's a more sustained, we need to open up the I worked here in Washington County, so I'll just state, we need to open up the 2nd Floor courtroom three times a week for the folks with five or more. And five or more still makes up about 28% of all pending cases in the state. Three or more pending dockets makes up about 50% of all pending dockets. So it's still an issue. It's a statewide issue. But I am happy to say that the mission is in progress. And I hope we can get to a point through not just additional personnel, but through efficiencies in the system to have this be more of the normal part of what we do. And I did go to a conference with Judge Zuneau and the Defender General's Office in Maine about some of the other states are doing this. And we worked we talked about this sort of thing at that time a number of months ago. And judge Zone can speak more to it. But other states, for example, Texas, they have full districts that just do misdemeanors. So they can think about this sort of thing in a different way. And I know I I appreciate our unified court system of felonies and misdemeanors in the same place. Nice for a prosecutor because you just show up in one courtroom every day, but it's hard for victims, defendants, and I think the public as well to why has this happened? So, anyway, that those are not very prepared remarks, but the data is on your website, and the data has been really summarized and prepared by the governor's that we've

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: been supplying from the courts.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It'd be interesting where we go from this legislative session.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: And we'll be able to tell on the people coming back through the system a year from now, hopefully being able to say, how many people came back during that time period?

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Is that gonna be tracked?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: You know, the good thing that we can do is we know when we started the court, this accountability document, so we can track people during October 20 through February that came to their dispositional point in this court, and then we can we can keep track of those folks. Yeah.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Yeah. And we're it's my understanding that my research group can do if they're involved? Not yet, but I but I think we can ask them to do that tracking over the next three to the next six, nine, twelve months. See how people can do it.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: Even though the docket number seems like it's a lot of dockets, we're actually talking about 100 or so people, individuals that have all those dockets attached. So we we can try to sort that out. And one of the things I've really loved is we put the, you know, Excel spreadsheet of our criminal docket, and we've compared it with our AHS spreadsheet. And we're seeing what we can do when we're looking at both at the same time, which is which is something that Jay and I have been discussing for years now about whether or not we can do that, comparing the AHS service sheet to the, you know, the other sheet. And there's a lot of reasons why it doesn't always work, including people found incompetent where the case gets dismissed.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Yeah. Perhaps I'm gonna ask you a quick question. So you said that 48% of the total dockets are from people that have five or more dockets. That how many people does that represent statewide? I do have.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: I'm preparing my budget narrative this year, which I've been working on. I'm trying to think more about numbers. That's the state what I just said there, that's the statewide number, but it closely tracks with what Chittenden has experienced. I will get that to you. Yeah, the number. And again, I believe at one point, we had figured out that there were 1,700 people in the state with three or more. And I think I think that's but I'll double check

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: to I'll double check. I'll get that back to you. When you send the statewide data, can you break it down by county and region?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: Actually yeah. I think we actually have been working we have no dedicated data staff. So it's myself and the state's attorney from Rutland that mostly work on data. We're producing a publicly available data set for year end in the next three or four days. So I'll send that to you for your committee's website for this year, which includes repeat data.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: And would also, I guess, would Ian come in and testify? Or sorry. During

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: our budget process, I may be able to present that data when we come in. But yeah, I'm happy to come in and talk about data.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Questions? Parts? Does anybody want to give time? Joe,

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: you have any kind of a gut feeling? I know that I'm putting you on the spot, but do math in public. But is incompetent to stand trial. We got three of those people in Gen K. How many do you think are in the state of Vermont?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: I would it's almost so I actually in in the data that I'll send to you all, we happen to know it's between one to 3% of the people with a pending case.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Falling that 1,700?

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: Actually, of a larger number of people with any pending criminal case. One to two to 3% I forget exactly the exact number. It's not a large percentage, but when

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Added up.

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: They add up the dockets. It's a list of people. There's a list of dockets. If someone has a number of dockets. But they do take a lot of time to litigate. And if it's a serious incident, that's where we're able That's where we pour more resources into it. We don't have a huge amount of expert witness dollars we're shadowing for our budget. And so because of that, I am forced to prioritize approval of expert witnesses on mostly felonies and violent cases. So if someone's picking up a lot of repeat cases and it's not violent, it's very hard for me to justify spending a limited resource on those cases. So the state's attorneys are often in a position of what do I do with these cases? The judges are in the same positions. Well, if the state's not gonna put an expert out here on this person with a bunch of retail theft cases, what are we doing with this case? That person goes back out into the community. Yeah. And sometimes the cases are not dismissed for some time in part because they keep picking up new cases. And every time, competency is presumed and it's fluid. So you are presumed competent every time. You are in the Even if you found incompetent the day before.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Gotcha. Okay. Thank you.

[Jay Johnson (General Counsel to the Governor)]: Thank you, Chittenden.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Thank you all. Good to see you. So,

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Judge, you've been Zooming in, and you've listened to all of this. So welcome.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Thank you. Good morning.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Or enlighten us, please.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: So for the record, Tom Zone, Chief Superior Judge, whatever they say is right. Have a great day. I think what's important to keep in mind is that what we have here is a situation where there's time, space, and resources. And you've heard quite a bit about that this morning, about the time that has been taken for the pilot project, project, the space that we had a dedicated courtroom, the 3B courtroom, as well as the resources. The important thing to keep in mind is that the goal was not just to clear cases. That's never our goal. The goal of the judicial system is to do justice and justice requires situations where in one case it might be a resolution that's probation, another case it might be a dismissal, another case it might be jail. So we have to look at each of the cases individually, and that provides for justice for the individual as well as for the public and public safety and rehabilitation. We're always trying to strive for that. But what this pilot project did was it allowed us to deliver that type of goal, that result, in a way that we weren't having the time to do. In our course, we're challenged to try to address the serious felonies along with the misdemeanors of someone stealing beer from general store or whatever it may be. And so the priorities of the state's attorneys and the defense bar and what they have to focus on are there's challenges and there's trade offs. What this enabled the court to do was to take the cases that we were going to hear anyway, put them on a segregated docket and say, okay, we're going to bring these cases in. We're going to give them the time they need. We're not just going to bring them in quickly, arraign the individual and send them right back out. We're going to give them the time they need for the attorneys to meet, for the attorneys to meet with their clients. We're going to have the opportunity to get them to court as opposed to a quick remote arraignment. We're going to have the ability to have resources for them. It provided us that opportunity, that springboard to do what we would hopefully do in every case, but we know we don't have the time or the resources to do. And so when you've heard Jay Johnson and Tim Lutlander talk about success, I concur. This has been successful. It wasn't just clearing cases, and it did clear cases. What it did was it provided what has been referred to often as the warm handoff at the courthouse. A defendant was able to be hand delivered, if you will, to someone who was going to be saying, okay, let's do an assessment. Let's get you signed up for services. Those types of resources matter, and that can only be accomplished with what happened here when you had the ability of transports to get people to court, and the Department of State's Attorneys working with the other executive branch agencies worked diligently to make sure that would happen. You had A. H. S. Who was there delivering, who was there helping. You had DOC who was stepping up to the plate. The state's attorney who was assigned took care of their business, and he did a great job. Zach Wake has he's the one I think everyone's looking to for data and how things have gone because he really embraced his role to do justice and to do it in this program. And certainly you had the defense bar step up. Had any one of those entities not fully bought in and participated, we wouldn't have met with the success that we did. So it really shows that what happens when everyone is willing to work together, as Tim Luneau used the word collaborate, and try to achieve a common goal, what we can achieve. We don't want to leave a hole in Chittenden, and we're not going to. That's not the plan. We had a meeting actually yesterday. It was attended by the judges, the state's attorney, defense public defenders, some conflict counsel. The plan for Chittenden right now that's being discussed is to take a couple half days each week, have one judge segregated who's going to hear those cases, and try to keep the resources for those half days available. Can we get AHS to continue to provide those resources? Can we get DOC to provide the supervision? Can we get the Department of State's attorneys and sheriffs to make sure we keep getting the transports? To segregate those times so that we can continue to bring those cases in sooner and to continue to stay on top of them. It's a part of our docket, whether it's a pilot docket or whether it's the normal docket. And so scheduling in a segregated manner like that will enable us to maximize the potential for the success that we've seen when we can bring the resources to the courthouse, when we can bring the resources to the individuals. And so that is under discussion now and I am excited and think that we're going to be able to put something together there that really builds off the foundation that has been established by the pilot project. The idea of rolling this out to other counties, I think Jay Johnson's right on target. We're 14 counties. This is not going to work in every county and it's not necessary in every county. What we are doing is that I've met with the judges and I will be meeting with judges coming up again in the very near future, whether it's individually or collectively, but I've said that we need each county to come up with a plan to talk to the state's attorneys and their defense bar, whether it's a public defender as part of the defender general system, or whether it's a contract attorney to say we want to segregate a time each week or every other week for these cases so that we're not waiting thirty days. In other words, to try to set a time and set a plan in motion in every county where it's necessary, that's going to let us build off what we've learned. That is, if we have the time, if we have the space, and we have the resources, we're going to have better results. And so ideally, we're going to be able to utilize those strategies to benefit us moving down the road. I know that one of the concerns is always transports. Another concern is remote hearings. We are constantly talking with our partners, state's attorneys and the Department of Corrections to try to make sure that we alleviate any issues. Tim, leaders, myself regularly communicate on some changes that are being done. That includes block scheduling. We have agreements that are being reached between the sheriffs and the courts and judges as to how we're going to schedule things to minimize overtime, to minimize unnecessary transports. And we also, the Supreme Court made an administrative order yesterday that also provides something the state's attorneys wanted, and that is the ability when there's a question between two courts, who's going to get the transport. And so spoiler alert, it falls to the chief superior judge to decide when there's a competition.

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Good luck.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: That was Tim's idea, by

[Tim Lueders-Dumont (Vermont Dept. of State’s Attorneys & Sheriffs)]: the way.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: You don't get mad, you get evil, right?

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: So certainly I'll take any questions, but this is the idea again, the collaboration, we're going to build on it, we don't want to leave a hole, one size doesn't fit all, but there is a size that does fit, and we're going to find that size. And that's the goal. So

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: in order for that to continue, you're going to need buy in from all the partners across And the that, I hope it's successful. We've done this model in the past and it was very successful, but the thing is to keep it going for that. So I have a question in terms of corrections, because some of the folks who have gone through this court, the specialized court, end up as detainees. How long then are they going to be held as detainees? Is there going to be an expedited process on that end?

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: I can't give any specific time for how long they will be held. Like in any case, they're held until their status changes, whether the judge decides that they're no longer held without bail or bail situation is addressed. But what I can say is under this program, they will be held for a shorter period of time if you're waiting towards resolution than they would otherwise have been held because we're shortening the time between hearings. We're bringing people back more regularly. That's a win for everyone. Of the concerns we've heard about the backlog Oh, I'm sorry, again.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No, but that's just for the During that pilot project, is that sustainable long term for that short period of return for those detainees?

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: It should always be the goal that we bring individuals back as soon as we can between hearings. And we, times, that's not what happens. We know that some of the lower end cases don't come back in as soon as possible. And so that is something that again, one of the lessons learned from this pilot that we can utilize for everyone involved, the state's attorneys, defense bar, and the judges for that matter, is we need to bring these cases in on a sooner basis. If you have a hearing and you say, well, I can't bring this individual back in for sixty days, that's not good. That's not acceptable frankly. We need to bring the cases that need to come to court back in sooner. And if we do the strategy that we're learning, that I think the lesson we learned here, and one we've actually done in some other courts before the pilot project, and that is set the time aside, identify it, segregate it, and use it. These individuals, their cases are on the docket anyway. It's not rocket science that we're doing here. We're just simply saying, okay, we're going to take a certain category of cases and we're going to make sure that we're going to hear them so that they don't get lost in the big mix. And so that when we're dealing with the serious felonies, we remember that there's an important case that is also out there on some of the misdemeanors for individuals. The goal that we have I think if you look at the numbers, a number of the individuals in the pilot docket had 15 or 20 dockets. Well, the magic number to go into that docket was five. Our goal is to not have anybody have 15 or 20 dockets. We don't want anyone to have five, but if they do have five, that should give us the ability to get the resources to assist them so that we don't have that continued buildup that we saw.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's the goal. Shawn?

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: Judge, thank you for joining us. My question is, how do we how do you feel or what do you think is the best way for this to continue, but that it's, I don't want to use the word mandated, but I'm going to, that it keeps happening, that it doesn't fall off a cliff, or get, we go to half days, and then the half days get eaten up by whatever, and then it falls away. How do we make sure that this actually stays a viable part of what you all do?

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Well, I think a large part of that falls on my shoulders with the judges to try to take steps to have the judges see things in the way that I think we would all agree they need to be seen, and that is we have to address these cases. But it's also through the collective work of the state's attorneys, the defense bar, and the judges, and DOC, transports for the sheriffs. If we all continue to keep this goal in sight, I think it maximizes the ability for us to achieve success. But at its simplest level, it falls to to me to tell the judges we need to do this and to stay on top of them. As I said, I met with the judges recently and we'll be having another meeting and I'm following up. I would send out and I have sent out regularly the five plus cases and it's a matter of following up and now I think it works nice because we have judge Mealy who can and Judge Morrissey who did something not a pilot docket but she did this idea of bringing the cases in up in Franklin County and it works. And so I think that helps others understand that it does work, give it a chance, as opposed to let's just keep scheduling everything in the way we've always been doing.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's a real mind shift, mindset shift into how to do it. And it would be great if it's sustainable. That's my concern. I want it to be sustainable. And I know, again, that you can't say anything until really the budget comes out. But is there a role for the legislature to play into this to ensure that it continues? Mean, right now we're kind of on a holding pattern. We are waiting for the governor's budget. There may be some initiative in the governor's budget that comes out or not. But is there a role for the legislature to ensure that this continues statewide?

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Yes.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Think Would he tell you to do it?

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: What you're doing today. I don't think you need to tell us to do it because everyone did it. In other words, the

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: governor There's pressures, gonna be I know, on the defender general's

[Rep. Shawn Sweeney (Clerk)]: staffing.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Because even now he's down in in enough staff and can't recruit new people. And that's gonna put more pressure on that office. And it could put more pressure on the state's attorney's office offices as well for staffing and maybe judges. We don't know.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Oh, it it will put pressure on all of those areas, but you just pointed out. There's a mind shift that needs to take place. And the reality that we face is these cases are We going to be should hear them in a way that maximizes the benefits of resources to the individuals, defendants, that enhances public safety, and that moves the cases in a more expedient manner. And so whatever we have for resources, we're still going to have to deal with these cases. And so we might as well do it in a way that is going to bring better resources to the table when we can to minimize recidivism ideally, and to help people address the behaviors that they need, and again, it enhances public safety.

[Rep. Conor Casey (Member)]: Conor? Just so I'd ask, not for the judge, but do we know how the defender general's feeling about how it's going so far? We're gonna try to set

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that Matt available at this time. So we're working to find a time Anything for else? I wanna thank the three of you for coming in. I know it's a long, almost two hour testimony, which is really a lot to take out of your schedule. But we're also gonna be bringing in DOC to talk about this as well as well path, because there is an impact on DOC on this. And we need to see the whole picture. I think if we can continue on the mind shift, as the judge says, it will be very helpful. I would support doing this. I'm just concerned that we really have to keep ensuring that our state's attorney's office, defender general's office, well as the courts are fully funded enough to provide the people to provide these services. Because it's people who provide the services. It's not the building, it's the people. And if we don't have enough people, the services are gonna be provided, and it's not gonna be time. Yep. And that's my concern. Because we can do it for a short period of time. But then two years down the road, does it get eroded away? That's my concern. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Yes. Absolutely. Anything else from folks or the committee?

[Unknown Committee Member]: Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you, all three of you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Have a great day.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Yes, you too.

[Hon. Tom Zonay (Chief Superior Judge)]: Happy New Year. Take care.

[Rep. Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we are back at 01:00.