Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Unknown Committee Member]: Okay,

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: welcome folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. It's January. It's our 09:00 morning meeting. We're gonna start our meeting this morning talking with the folks from the Vermont Arts Council. We've got two folks coming up, one Michelle, whoever wants to come up.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Michelle's gonna talk to you, but I'll get the

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Okay. Good morning, everyone.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Good morning. Susan, if you could identify yourself for the record, please. And we do have some documents that have been submitted on web page. We do. We're gonna put it up on our screen as well? I am. Let me that was it. Oh, there we go. Share.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: It's full screen on

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: my side.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: There we go. Good morning, everyone. I'm Susan Edwards McLaur. I'm the executive director of the Vermont Arts Council. Welcome back. Happy to be here with you all today. And big thank you to Representative Headrick for being a member of our Art and State Buildings Advisory Committee and to the VGS team also for their important partnership on this program. Today, we're going give you a little history of the program, the mechanics of how it works. It is a really important program not just for the artists that it supports, the community members who get to participate in it, the state employees who benefit from it. But I think it's a really unique way to do public art, which there are public art programs funded by almost every state in the country. They're all important and great. Ours is one of the more unique ones in that we're really focused on developing it in partnership with the community that it's being impacted by. I'm gonna stop you right there. So this is public art, but it's in our state

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: buildings. So that's what you gotta have in your mind. These are in in our state buildings. It's not municipal buildings. It's not It's is not out there. These are for projects that we do with our state buildings. It could be the training academy in Pittsburgh. It could be a courthouse. It could be a correctional facility. It could be a state office building. It's those are the type the forensic lab, the health lab, the state hospital, the secure residential, if we do something to replace Woodside, it would be in that building. So that's where these projects are. So that's why it's connected to the capital bill. And that's why we fund it through the capital bill, because it's within our state buildings. I just want to be clear, so people don't think this is public art everywhere in Vermont.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: So the program was established in 1988 by statute. It had really strong support from this committee, businesses, and artists. And the act requires that approved funds from the capital budget are transferred to an art acquisition fund we'll get into the mechanics of that in a minute for the purpose of providing new artwork in public buildings and facilities. So as the chair just said, the enabling legislation says that the project may take place in any state, building, or facility undergoing new construction or renovation. It could include an addition. And the projects have to be tied to capital build projects that are over $1,000,000 And since its founding, the program has commissioned over 60 artists to create work that's currently in 36 state owned buildings. Projects have been completed in 12 of Vermont's 14 counties as well. And as the chair mentioned, in 2023 with Act 50, the program was updated, including a new funding mechanism that sets a minimum annual requested appropriation of $75,000 as a separate line item in the capital bill. And this was the first funding increase since the program was established. The program is administered by the Arts Council in partnership with BGS and is overseen by the Art and State Buildings Advisory Committee. Michelle, do you want to Do you want to go next to it?

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. So occasionally, I just stand right here. I just have a few slides. Sure. I'm Michelle Bailey, I'm the Senior Program Manager at the Vermont Arts Council and I administer this program on behalf of the organization and in partnership with the state.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Just just wanted to give you

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: a little overview of the process. First of all, just a few notes about what language is in the statute and there is a link to the statute and the information that we sent you, but it's also on the screen here that first of all, there's an art and state buildings advisory committee established in the statute. The role of that committee is that they provide final approval of project sites, the budget, works. They also approve any final designs of works of art and establish the guidelines and oversee all the processes that we do through those guidelines. The members of that committee or their designee, as we mentioned, include the Commissioner of Buildings and General Services, the Director of the Vermont Arts Council, the chairs of both House and Senate institutions committees or their designees, state curator, and the chair of the Vermont State Board of Architects. And, as I said, they also, established the guidelines for that management of the program and per those guidelines, the committee is basically kind of the final authority on matters matters of of the art and state buildings program, just so that we have an oversight and we come to them

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: for those types of things. So, the statute also established an art acquisition fund to finance the design, construction, integration and purchase or commissioning of works of

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: art for the program per the statute. Per the statute, the funds shall be composed of any amounts transferred to or appropriated to it by the General Assembly. The use of funds, the amounts of the funds shall be extended upon order of the Council for the acquisition or commissioning of works of art and administration of the program. And then fund balances, any balance remaining at the end of the fiscal year shall remain in the fund. And for folks, last bullet's important to remember

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: as we discuss what's at play here. So are there any questions right now in terms of how that program is structured?

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Yet.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Not yet. Okay.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: Just a

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: quick visual of the cycle. For the statute and the program guidelines, our first step is that staff and BTS Commissioner and other staff, we all get together and we talk about what are those capital projects that might be in the pipeline. What are some possible projects that we might look at? And we use a set of criteria that are published in our guidelines, which we look at the public accessibility of the building. And I've been the context of its usage, the community or the agency occupant interest, the potential for artistic innovation. Also look at that regional distribution of the funds over the course or the lifespan of the program. And as you may have seen this in the slide, we have 36 buildings, 12 out of the 14 counties. So, in the thirty seven ish years that we've been running the program, there's a lot of art out there that we've been able to commission with Vermont artists out there. We coordinate with local and regional arts planning, public use and visitation of the site, and then the potential for occupant benefits for the artwork that may be in facilities that may or may be less accessible to the public, but there may be some real value to having those spaces be very filled with art. So, we kind of determine together, we look at what might those recommendations be, that recommendation comes to that advisory committee in step number two, for their recommendation, looking at the site and the amount of, you know, within that 50 to $75,000 approval, once that is approved by that advisory committee, we generate a memo to BGS Commissioner and request that those funds be transferred into the art acquisition fund. And then the VCA, the Arts Council staff, primarily me and whatever project manager might be assigned to a particular site get together, we talk about the timeline, we identify a committee, we have a whole process to do a call to artists. Now, sometimes with the goal of the program being to get involved as early as possible, it can sometimes take a little while, sometimes years before a project is kind of ready for us to get in, even though it's been identified as art and state buildings project. So, sometimes have a timeframe that we have to wait, which is important to, for us to be able to access those funds in a timely manner when it does come around. And from time to time buildings that we had identified don't move forward for various reasons and that could be because the scope of the work has changed, the building is not going to have a renovation now, there's so many factors as you all know probably more than I do, that things change in the planning. So, if that's the case and we've identified a project, then we see in the purple here we go back up to the Commissioner, we have similar conversations saying, hey, this building's not moving forward, we've been hanging on to this funds, the money in the fund for a bit, but let's assign a new building to it. We've already got that money in the fund, let's assign another project to it. And we do that again collaboratively, we bring that to the advisory committee and then kind of move forward in our process. So that's kind of the cycle of piece. And once we do get moving, we work to do we have a local art selection committee, we do a call to artists, the artist is put under contract, they make the art, it's fabricated and installed at the site, we have a big party. So that's the process. Just looking at my notes here, I think that's all for me. Were going to pick up from here, right? Just to kind of go over the status of some of our projects that were in the pipeline. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the advisory committee plugs in at two points. They plug in at the beginning of the process when the commissioner of BGS recommends projects to the advisory committee. And then the advisory committee can waive that. And then once it's been decided, yes, that project is a project that will be available for public art, Then you start working on the art project itself. And then the design of the art project, and that could be a year later, goes back to the advisory committee to be approved by the advisory. And once that is approved, then they go forward with

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: the process. Brian?

[Brian Minier (Member)]: It's for either the presenter or the chair, I suppose. But why, you both mentioned now that this is limited to construction or renovation over a certain amount of money. It wouldn't have to be. You could do it in any building. So is that just a limit choice? Why is it reserved for those cases?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, you know, some maintenance issues could be at 250,000 or minor renovations might be at half 1,000,000 or something. You don't wanna get involved in an art project like this. So having a million dollars for a project indicates that it's a pretty large project, building project that you're gonna be doing. You need some kind of a floor there in terms of where you can do your art projects in a state building.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: It's an open building that you really like. There's nothing going to happen there for a while. You'd stick some art in there.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's usually not really the way it goes.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: But yeah, I'm curious why. Just because.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Commissioner, could you identify yourself for the record?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Thank you, Madam Chair. Wanda Manoli, Commissioner of Buildings and General Services. I just want to say that's a great question because as we've been meeting, I'm going to just connect it to the capital bill. So as the chair and some of the other members know, at one point in time, we were building major renovations in the early 2000s, even in the late 1990s, and this program has really evolved from that and it was a great way to incorporate into the construction or the renovation pieces of art. So it wasn't just buying a piece of art, you could blend it in. What is occurring and what I'm just gonna talk about it now is that we do not have those mass projects. And the projects that are on our list that we've identified and we can go through that, you are all gonna see, for example, youth facility, that project's been identified, might be fine, you know, well, could be sooner, but, so some of those projects, because we've connected it to the construction and the renovation, we have a lot of choices. And so it's one of the conversations that we actually, I'm just going to bring it up now because we did, we were saying, should we talk to the committee and the legislature about are there newer buildings or things that we've invested in that maybe you could start identifying where we could bring that in to give respect to the program as well, but that's part of what we're struggling is we don't, when you look at your list of what you've approved in the last couple of years and what's on the list for demands going forward,

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: there's not there's not a

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: lot of choices, madam chair.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So is the million dollar floor a problem?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: I I'm going to

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: because when you had a lot of construction, you really had to have a floor. Right. The other piece, I think, that maybe starting to come to because I used to be on the advisory committee. The other piece is starting to come to play. Some of these art displays have been in for twenty, twenty five years and there needs to be some maintenance and upgrade tool. And that's been an issue that's been percolating out there for the last four or five years. And and we haven't really addressed that. Yes. So this is something new as well. I mean, particularly if it's part particularly if it was part of a part of the construction of the building. Like it could be part of a wall, it could be part of handrails, you know, and then you got to maintain them. They're twenty, twenty five years old.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I mean, it's been a wonderful program. It's been so successful. I still remember walking into the Mahaney Courthouse and seeing my first piece of art installed. It's you know but while you have evolved and while you're focusing on different things we need to at least give the tool and the advisory committee, I think options because they are, you know, I mean, I think the preference is new work and putting it in the buildings, maybe I'll let them speak to that, But we don't I wasn't able to give them a lot of options when we mapped it. For

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: new projects moving forward.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: From Blue Rock. Yeah. So we're not doing some of those big projects. And the big projects we are doing are delayed for a variety of reasons, which is the juvenile center in the women's

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Or the entry for a quarter. You'll see the list shortly.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: And when we go yeah. The other thing I just want to mention, in our cycle, while the Arts Council administers the project, the way it is set up is when the artwork is installed, it is state artwork, state owned artwork. So I think that's a really important point, the long term maintenance. Maintenance to know that. That is huge.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Where does the money come from? Because we have not advanced

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: that. And I think, not to get theoretical about public art, but there is a really interesting discussion nationwide right now about if public art is forever. So there also could be choices to be made about and that's actually in the updated guidelines that we spent a long time working on. Is there a point at which you say, this artwork is twenty five years old. We have new money in the budget. We want to change it and make a new one. That could be a totally fine decision to make, too. It's not something we've done so far in the process. But I think, as the commissioner said, I think that as things are changing, we're open to evolving and adapting the program as it makes sense too.

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: And once the artwork does go to become property of the state, then the state curator just kind of takes it over as part of the art collection. So we run the process, get the art administered, process administered, art installed, and then the state curator's office takes over from there. Some future conversations about what maintenance and

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: the other things look like.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Any other questions?

[Unknown Committee Member]: I do want to ask this question, because I thought it was interesting the title of the programs are in state buildings, but I can tell a lot

[Unknown Committee Member]: of them

[Unknown Committee Member]: outside. So I'm assuming state property is included on that, but I was just curious what's the variety within the portfolio right now of the different ranges? Because obviously, as you can file, I hate art. Well,

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Michelle, it's fine. Almost every single one of these. So do you want

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: to talk about how that decision was made? Oh, well, yeah. It really depends a lot on the what's being done in the building, occupants of the building, the public visibility at the site. So there's a a of works that are integrated into buildings, floors, walls. We had a railing at the Franklin Courthouse, which is the very first project that we did with this program back in 1990. Was installed and of course now didn't meet ADA guidelines anymore. In front of the courthouse has been renovated up there in St. Albans. So anyway, are a few of the things like that. But lots of paintings, some murals. Those are it's almost anything you can imagine as public art.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: You know, and I just, if I, again, I think what's really important representative is that what I've really appreciated is that when a building or a site is identified, this team works with the architect and the artist so they're visually I mean I just love that creative piece because I don't have it they're looking at what can we do exterior, interior, how do we blend what the building is about, right? So if you go to the lab in Randolph, right, I believe we have some frogs. There's a frog. Oh, it's there, right? But it doesn't always Sometimes it's been a blend. They've done a phenomenal job, and it's really the vision of the artist.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And that's what gets approved by the advisory committee.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Yeah, another question, and this actually might be more for the commissioner, but do you guys have any data on how state employees that are at these facilities appreciate the artwork? Because I think that was also some of the genesis behind this program, was to try and make sleep buildings more welcoming and inviting both to the people that work there, but also people out in the community. So is there any information

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: that I would add don't, but

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: I've not done any formal surveys, but my experience that with the we have people that work in the building who are on the local art selection panel when we pull it together, and they are the ones who are our contact for the people in the building, so at least at the time that it all goes in, they've had a chance to look at the designs, comment on the on the ideas, things like that before we even build it. So yeah. And I just

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: put up an example of our latest project too that was at the Department of Children and Family Services office in Burlington. So this is the place you go to if you are requesting assistance from the state through DCF, and usually food assistance or any kind of other financial So the building is in a former industrial space. The walls are just the off white painted brick. And it was just a white walled room. And this is a room that you're going into potentially on the worst day of your life, right? When you're kind of at the bottom, and you're walking into a white room, and it was just horrific. What the artist did was come in and meet with the group that was advising from the staff team. He talked to people to understand the use of the space. And then what he created were these really vibrant, colorful, welcoming, very large format paintings. And now when you go into that space, it totally feels welcoming. It feels calming. It just really resets the purpose. And that's both for the staff who are in there who have really hard jobs and for the people who are from the public coming into that building, too. But one of the questions that if you want me to go through this, we have a little chart of the outstanding projects, the projects that are open and underway.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Quick. We're only looking at the time, because we have to get to what the issue is before. So we have to work.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: So as we talked about, these are projects that are identified sometimes years in advance. And then things change. So we met with the commissioner earlier this year. It was last year. Fine. It was in the fall. And we talked through all of the projects that had been previously identified. Funds are in the art acquisition fund. And we've been working with the BGS team over the years to identify what's moving forward and what's not. So what we want to share with everyone, just to give you a sense of where we are, is the projects that were previously identified and the status on them. The first was the State House, renovations to the State House that has been influxed over the years. And so what we talked about with the commissioner's office for that was to keep that, move forward with commissioning a work of art connected to the State House interpretive plan as it is. And then we will move forward with that one. The second and probably the biggest change on this list is the Supreme Court project here in Montpelier. And please, Commissioner, you're the expert on these two. So that project we advised is no longer happening. And what's currently under consideration with the advisory committee is to take that funding that was dedicated to that project and move it to other projects that are underway right now.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Do you have the dollar amount for that? I do. It's $150,000

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: It was $72,500 That's what? 72 For the Supreme Court.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: 72,500. If I understood right, any funds that aren't used are rolled over to future?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. Well, they're held in the fund for the identified purpose until the committee received for that. So

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: they're not subject to repo like other things would be, correct? That's what

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I'm That's what we want to be clear about. Yes. K? Because that was a concern.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: This is subject to reallocations. So so each project is under 75,000?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: We can the advisory committee can choose to potentially could do two fiscal years together, it would be higher. Previously, when it was allocated at 50,000, the projects were usually between 50,000 and 75,000. And now, the projects are usually around 75,000.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So back in FY17, FY18, FY19, I believe every fiscal year in the capital bill, we put in 50,000.

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. Actually, was that one, if if I can just add that we started because we wanted to get in early. We put like 5 or 10,000 in one fiscal year so that we could begin the design.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Of the 50,000. Of the 50,000. So some of that money is expended.

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yes, Well, not on the state house not on the Supreme Court, but we Mhmm. And then it never moved forward. So we put a little bit it it was one of those things. It was it's it's gonna happen next year. It's gonna happen in two years. So we we just pieced a few bits of funding from different fiscal years, which added up to that '72.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: And nothing in the statute says, I believe, that it has to be just one project. So previously, it's been we've done 02/25 or something like that. Right.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: So Madam Chair, when we first started when we created this program, think Tom Forte was commissioner and we created the idea and we were taking it out of the Capital Building. You weren't doing an appropriation so we had established the art in the State Building at that time then you said the 50,000 but you didn't have the flexible language so when we would come in and present, I think I'm just doing history and we said, we're gonna do a new courthouse that would be identified as the project that we were gonna do art in. And that's all they focused on. We've really evolved this program to align.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That was back in the 90s. We should have. Was talking

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: two This how it's evolved to. This is where we're taking it out of the capital or eliminating it to the 50,000. It's a move to what is the real cost? Let's make the investment. What project's there? That's all I'm saying.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: So since we're gonna run out of time, I'm gonna be the bad guy. How much capital? How much funding is currently available to buy art?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Within the acquisition fund. All the projects that

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: are some approved, started, not where's the

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Within the acquisition fund. Right?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Two I'm gonna do some math math math. Two fifty three two fifty $3.25.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: $325,000

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: I think.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Would have I'm too public. I know.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: This is big. I see with the numbers. I will find out if I ask.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Less less than a half million.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yes. That was five way less.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: From fiscal y f y fifteen to now, we've got less than a half million dollars worth of art that we're trying to put in various locations, various projects. I love art. I mean it. How much overhead is involved in managing this less than a half million dollars worth of art? I'm trying to

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: get It's out of our capital.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: It's out

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: of our capital bill. Bill.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's out of the capital bill.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We have a line item for Okay. Specifically for art and state buildings. But the Arts Council has much more focus and work than just the art and state building. So the rest of how they function as an arts council is through the general fund.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Okay. So this is just a follow-up.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: They administer this little program. That's it.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: This is a tiny part of it. Yes. Thank you. You're welcome. That helped me out.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: But what's important is there's money that was put in in f y fifteen for the state. There was money that was put in in March, the goal was the Supreme Court. Then there was money put in for the A. S. Blumer Building, money put in for the White River Courthouse, St. Albans Correctional Facility, DCM, the juvenile center, and then the Newport Courthouse. So there's money there that has been put in, 50,000, 50,000, 50,000. And then last year in FY twenty five, we bumped that up to 75,000. So it would be good to get what is currently in the acquisition fund. 300,000. I would say around 300,000 for that, Joe.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: I know. This might have been but the last we knew, the Newport Courthouse is being considered for replacement.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We don't yeah. But that was for f y twenty six. So it's in our capital bill of last year, the 76,000. What is being proposed for the 75,000. What is being proposed for that is the Newport Courthouse. We don't know if that's gonna go forward or not at this point, but that's what commissioner BGS and the folks in the Arts Council had is this is the next big project that's in the pipeline. And we're gonna put aside that 75,000 we had last year in the capital bill, the current capital bill. We're gonna put that for the courthouse. Now they could start going through the process in two years from now and say, courthouse is not going forward.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: And that's how we've kind

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: of gotten into this with some

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: of the other projects, is that we link it to another project that's in that your capital bill. And then those projects go forward,

[Unknown Committee Member]: go forward.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: So this would be for the new Newport Courthouse. It's not for the existing Newport Courthouse, which Okay. That's what I very good.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the interpretive plan is still in the works.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Right. Fact. That is the state curator's office, not our office.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That's still in the works. It's been in the works. The Supreme Court, we pulled the We've reallocated any capital bill money we had for any design documents for that building to begin with. That's no longer going forward. So those monies were targeted in the acquisition fund that have now been freed up because we haven't, we've decided not to go forward with that. The Asa Bloomer building, we're doing a lot of work within that building in And that looks like that's moving forward.

[Unknown Committee Member]: It is. So

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: there's a project for that. The White River Junction Courthouse, that's almost completed. There it is.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: That's an a rendering of what it will look like. Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: This is going in soon. So this is what's been approved for artwork within that building.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Mhmm.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Goes all the way up

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the stairs. And then there is in Saint Albans, we're renovating all the booking area. And all of that, we've put in some money over the last two fiscal years for that.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Not for their project, for the building. Not for the art project.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No, for us, for renovating the whole booking area and then some. So the advisory committee has decided that that would be a project that's moving forward. And then the replacement for Woodside, which we had hoped to put in for Jen's, that didn't go forward. So now it's in our RFP process that we heard about yesterday, but that building has been targeted as has the new Newport Courthouse. Those are the anticipated future expenditures between St. Albans, the replacement of Woodside and the new Newport Courthouse.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: And one of the questions for the recommendation from commissioner's office on the Arts Council was to take the first two you mentioned, potentially the State House money and the Supreme Court money, Shirley, and move those existing funds to existing projects. I think that's a discussion that could be had is, should those be totally new projects? Should they support existing projects? We

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: wanted

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: them to support existing projects because it's not hard to spend more money on art.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We need to know how much is in the fund from the FY '15 that was targeted to the interpretive plan. How much for the Supreme Court in FY 1718, and '19? Because that's where you're proposing to reallocate those

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yeah.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Divert those funds.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: The list that we sent to the members for approval. It's moved it.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. It's 15,000 for the State House, 72,000 for the Supreme Court. Thank you. You, Can

[Unknown Committee Member]: I bring in what else kind of flavored my question? I'm going go into the 2.9 request. The other request that started getting me thinking about, we do want to have a bigger discussion about this, is the proposal currently for the Newport project is to combine FY 'twenty six and FY 'twenty seven, so $150,000 for that art project. My immediate thought process was, does this impact the integrity of the program itself, when part of the mission of the program is to highlight Vermont artists? So suddenly, one Vermont artist is gonna have access to a project that is funded for a $150,000 that then for FY '27 takes the pool away from other potential artists that could be benefiting from this. And is there an equity concern there? I started thinking about, if there's extra money left over, this blossomed in my head about how much I was paying these artists to be part of this program is that, in and of itself, equitable. But mostly, I was concerned about combining 'twenty six and 'twenty seven, when we haven't talked about the capital bill for FY 'twenty seven at all. And suddenly, we're digging into future money. That was my biggest concern about the request that came through early December. So that's when I hit the pause button with these kind folks. And I, too, am a big fan of our

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I'll turn this on now.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Then he's a thorn in your side.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Everybody's side. It's good.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We love you, Troy.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: It's important. Responsibly for these ones is important.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: I don't recall whether Troy addressed this in his email, but is there a precedent for using more than one of these? Not that we have to go back and look it anyway, but has it happened?

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yes. Waterbury, when that big complex was being renovated, we combined two fiscal years. And to address your question, we actually put out a call for two locations in the building. We had an artist for the courtyard, and we did one for the mural in the main lobby. We've also had multiple artists within a $50,000 or $75,000 budget, so that's why there's 60 artists for 35 sites. So there's often multiple artists, but as the world increases in cost of materials and other things, found that it tends to be more impactful, when you have one or two projects in one site versus when the program first began, put 5,000 here and 10,000 here and we'd have four or five projects with five or ten thousand each. Was just a lot of administration for not a lot of impact. And so over time, we've kind of said, all right, we're gonna let's pick the projects where we're have the most impact, do a nice, nice project.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Yeah. And this is not me.

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: Oh, was

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: a great person.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Various use of funds with with this group. I mean, that that is not at all my concern. I just wanna Yeah. Be prudent and Yep. Thorough in having the committee consider this.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: So at the Waterbury Complex, someone, some artist, I guess he said there were two installations there, was given more than a year's worth? Because that was the concern. I remember you saying that multiple people in one year had received. But has somebody gotten more than the 50 or the 75 in a year?

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: I think maybe the mural artist got like 60. And then the other rep got 40 or something. It was some I'd have to look back at the details, but it was a little bit more. But that wall isn't a spectacular mural that took her, you know, as she got, she, you know, her time is less valued than it. Yes.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Part of the question is, too, I think it's worth bringing up. While it is great to have more funds for a bigger project, there's also we're looking at a large list of things that are very large projects that change over time to bring that in, too.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yeah. And Madam Chair, I just wanna add the And I'll take the response. When we met, we looked at the FY 'twenty six, 'twenty seven capital bill as a two year bill, and you had identified for 'twenty seven. We identified that, but we also were cognizant that there's a budget adjustment and you could change it. But I think that's also why it was identified. I mean, we were proposing if we are successful with the Newport Court Building, that is going to be another very large project. Multi year. Multi year project. I just wanted

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: That was proposed to the advisory committee. Was was the FY fifteen, FY seventeen, eighteen and '19 for a total of 120,000.5

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: to

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: be directed towards the Newport Courthouse?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: We were going to direct that one to Well, this is another question. I would defer on State House plans to everyone in this

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: room because that's not us.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: We don't know. That's under the curator. Yes. The request from, I believe, was to hold that funding for the state house, I anticipating it would move

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: mean, I'll be happy to adjust it based on the work that BGS has been doing with the sergeant at arms and the architect. So there's been some planning money. I think you're all aware there's been some discussion around enhancements to support security and other things because that project, we have an architect, we're moving forward. We ask, we understand that the legislature still needs to finalize the approval, but in this discussion to hold some of that. And it's not because we think that, we just, we didn't want to recommend removing that money and then having that project in place.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So the four the full 50,000 that was put towards the interpretive plan in f y fifteen, you're not proposing pulling all of that. You're proposing leaving some in there to go towards the possible updates to our life and safety pieces of the State House because we're gonna recon if we go forward with it, we're gonna reconfigure all the entrance.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I believe they have a 150,000 assigned to that. I

[Unknown Committee Member]: just sent the original email that started this for me to the entire committee, so you can all look at your schedules.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: This is a document that might be too intense for everyone. But let me find it, and I will share that document with the numbers on it. These are also information that we can share with the advisory committee about the State House. We want to support the projects that are happening. We love all of them equally. Also, I think what we've talked about is the desire to move this funding. It doesn't help the public to keep it there, and we want to be supporting artists and supporting state workers with it. So let me I think I can share this. There we go. I

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: do

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: know that was a behavior. Yeah.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Well, we have the numbers pulled up. But my question actually is kind of a little deviated from it, but I was just curious, you you were talking a little bit about decommissioning art potentially in the future. I was more curious what happens if a building or a property is decommissioned and there's art or sold, and there's art on it. What's the process to removing the art, or does it get sold with the building?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Well, that recently happened. Oh, yeah.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I'm it. I like it.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: It

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: 109108 Cherry.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yep. Right? Yep.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: What about the name on the building?

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: You want

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: to get into that?

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: We removed from the building, and the state curator has it in storage at the moment. We're trying to find a new home for the photography that was in the lobby area, and then the new work that we were working on, we shifted to the Lakeside Department of Children and Family Services that you saw the picture of. And one of the

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: things we talked about with the A. S. 0. Bloomer Building, I believe hearing that there were some considerations about that too, was to set a requirement for that the art is removable so that it's not built into the walls and floor, but it could be something that could be moved. That's why I

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: asked.

[Unknown Committee Member]: I know ASA Bloomer's between a state they're trying to transfer it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So what what we're trying what they really need some of our direction, approval, disapproval, changes, whatever. Because Troy brought this because part of the thinking is this is kicking into our reallocation process. Because our reallocation process really took hold more so about six years ago. And this program has been in place much longer than that. And it also may impact our decisions on the Newport Courthouse going forward or FY 2627. We're still involved in that capital bill because we're going to go through a BAA process, which means in the BAA, you could also move some money around in the current FY '26 budget and move money around '27. So we haven't made any of those decisions. So what is being proposed? The Supreme Court of Montpelier is not going forward. In the fund is $72,500 for that project. So what commissioner BGS proposed to the advisory committee is 12,500 of that be moved up to the state house or if we do any state house expansion.

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: Yep.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: The life and safety.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: I just want to say the working group proposed it.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Think you didn't do that. The working group.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yeah. Okay. And you proposed

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: that to the advisory. That You're part of that.

[Michelle Bailey (Senior Program Manager, Vermont Arts Council)]: You're part of that. Yes.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay. So 12,500 is being proposed to be moved up when if and when we change the life safety here at the State House. 40,000 is for the A. S. Blumer Building, which is currently in play. Currently, the process is going forward. And then 20,000 for the new juvenile center. So that was what was being proposed.

[Unknown Committee Member]: And then combining twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: For Newport, but we haven't made any decisions on FY 2637 for Newport or even Art And State Building. So we do have a line item, 75000. Do we want to tie up that total 150,000 for a new courthouse in Newport? So those were the little triggers that Troy kind of started thinking about. And he emailed me, and I said, well, let's have the committee weigh in on this. So that's why they're here, for us to weigh in. Should they go forward with this proposal? Should they go forward with part of this proposal and maybe some of it put on hold for a little bit? Or not go forward with the proposal?

[Unknown Committee Member]: So we were talking before, within the fund right now, is there flexibility to sort of spruce up the existing art pieces that we're talking about? Or is there nothing for that? Because I'm just wondering, would a portion of this be better allocated for that purpose rather than coming back in the future?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: So there's nothing for statute. And in the statute, it says that it becomes property of the Vermont State Curator's Office and the Vermont Collection. And part of that is caring for the collection. And we all understand that an expensive proposition that does not have attached funding right now. So I think we're not against it. It's just not in the statute, I would say.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We haven't addressed Yes, it's been percolating for the last few years, but that has not

[Unknown Committee Member]: been It might be good to address. I'm thinking before we make any decisions on this, we got a bit of money.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Well, they're kind of on a timeframe to make a decision here on this before we get into maintenance and upkeep of current subject. For the

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: committee, you do a line item for the curator in the capital bill and that is part of what those funds are for. I don't think what hasn't happened is we haven't really sat down with David and maybe looked at the inventory and prioritized. I don't believe we need statutory authority to do that and I think that we have the ability with the language that you have given us and I think we have the ability with the source of funds that we currently have. If they did an inventory and came up with a list and all of a sudden the maintenance and repair was 200,000 and I'm just picking a number out of the sky, then I would say to you, I don't have the funds for that, right? I've got some ability working with David to main maintain that.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So what we could do in the capital bill, when we have the line item for the curator, we could put in language that indicates the curator and BGS and the Arts Council do an inventory of the projects, previous art and state buildings projects that are there

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: At current condition.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: In current condition. We could do that in the capital Please. But he remember that?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: As long as we don't limit the funds that you give to

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the The inventory. Right. To figure out what the projected cost would be. So next year, whomever is sitting in this room would then get the inventory and then could make the determination in that capital bill whether to put money in. And would if I mean, this

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: is a question. Money is already in that fund, but would that be something that the Arts Council could spend part of that fund on? Because that is a worthy project. It's also a lot of staff time, and it will involve probably the inventory. We can

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: talk about that when we do the capital.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Right. You may have more time than I want curator.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: I think it's going to involve expertise of outside consultants on a lot of these too. I just That's a great idea.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Is that path something the committee is willing to do when we start looking at the capital bill to talk about the inventory?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Yes. And we should spend just having a conversation about the portion of funds because I'm sitting here going, if we have an outsider that we don't, maybe we do want to dedicate, maybe you do want to talk about a little bit of the current funds to be used for that. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying I think we have to talk about it Cause I can't take that 50,000 and all of a sudden say, David, you have no money to do your other

[Troy Headrick (Ranking Member)]: stuff. Right.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So I'm pushing this along because we have some other testimony. So there's two pieces to this. There's the reallocation sort of the 72,500 to those three projects. I see that as one piece. Then I see tying up the 150,000 from FY '26 and FY '27 capital bill to be used for the proposed new Newport Courthouse? Do we really want to tie our hands up to that?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: And I'm sure I think when we talk about the authority you've given us on Newport and to purchase land, that is why I put that one on the list because we're working on getting that land and you've appropriated previous funds and years. So design, know, it's really about the location.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It's getting a land, it's getting the land somewhere. Yep. And the question is, we've got the juvenile center, which is out for an RFP. So that looks like that it's gonna move ahead. The women's facility, we don't know what's gonna happen with that one in the time frame. And then the Newport Courthouse, they're looking for land to purchase.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Well, and actually, the women's correction facility is not on.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: I know, but I'm balancing the three big projects that we had before us. The three big projects we had before us is the juvenile center, the women's correctional facility, and the new Newport Courthouse. Those are the three big projects we have before us. We know that we're going to move forward with the funeral center, we hope, with the RFP coming back. Replacement of the women's correctional facility is more up in the air in terms of what what we're gonna do and how we move forward. And then the Newport Courthouse, we know we're gonna be purchasing land. That's what we need to do.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: And we have some design.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And you have some design. So of those three, the one that's really not moving forward as quickly is the women's facility. So that's what we got to balance. So do we want to tie up FY '26 and twenty seven monies to go for the advisory committee to say, yes, we're going to do that towards the new Newport Port. Are we going to do that? Or do we want to kind of put that on hold and wait until we get through our BAA process. But allow the other reallocations of the 72,005 to go to those other three projects. Kevin?

[Kevin Winter (Member)]: I'd like to give an opinion. I'd like us to be able to accumulate whatever money we think we can afford to buy investment art and let you guys decide how to do it and how to maintain it the best bang for the buck, and keep us out of the nitty gritty on where it goes, how much it comes, and all this because we don't we don't know the best way to spend that money which is a pittance compared to the big picture. So, I would like to see you manage it and give make the language give them the authority to do that rather than us every time the project starts, stops, ends. The key

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: issue right now is tying up the capital bill before we've made any decisions on the two year budget cycle. That's the issue. It's not so much the 72,500 being moved around.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Can I also add that we could, given these moving parts, given the changes in Newport, we're still early enough in the process that if we just identify FY 'twenty six as being for Newport, we're not to know? We're not even going know by the end of this year what that total project is. So if we could, another option, just move forward with FY 'twenty six for the Newport Courthouse, pause on FY 'twenty seven, go next year, reevaluate and see what happens with the budget adjustment, and then reevaluate next year. Does it seem right to do them together? What it allows us to do by starting now on the Newport Courthouse is to be at the beginning phases of design with the architects. I guess we're not quite to architect because we're looking for land. We've

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: site You've given authority to buildings and general services to do design planning and to purchase land.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: But there's no land yet.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: We've done searches outside Newport, within Newport, and we may have a potential site that we are exploring. So we are you know, in alignment with the direction of the legislature and the priorities. We continue to move that project forward. I think, and that's how it ends up on the list. I mean, you've already directed and given the commissioner of buildings and general services authority to purchase land. It's not an item and we have the funding that is available for

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: We've done that over the past

[Unknown Committee Member]: few years.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Question is

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: That's why it's on the list.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Right. And the question is you're tying up that 75,000 in FY twenty seven to go to Newport and we have not done our work yet in budget adjustment. And I know half the committee's brand new here and has never gone through the budget adjustment in a two year capital bill. There's other folks that have. We move money around between the two fiscal years and we may delay another project. We may delay a project that we were gung ho last year when we put the bill together and we may delay it totally and pull that money and put it someplace else. So half of you have not gone through that BAA process. The other half of you have. So the question is, do we tie our hands right now in terms of our BAA process?

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Sounds like no.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Sounds like no.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: We got something very interesting.

[Unknown Committee Member]: No, no.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: But this is really very helpful because also, is helpful information that we don't have on the daily either. And we're all working together to pull that information together. So it's really helpful to have the input from the committee to bring back to the advisory committee I should use a different name than the committee bring back to the advisory committee so that they can make that decision, too. So is

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: the committee comfortable with the first part of moving that 72,005 to those three projects that have been highlighted? The committee's fine with that. So it's the issue with FY '26 and FY '27. Can you just put a hold on that until we do our BAA work?

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: Even for FY '26?

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: No. No being keep '26

[Unknown Committee Member]: because we gave wait.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: It was 75,000 in FY '26 for art and state buildings. We didn't designate where that money goes. That's not

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: what Well, they you

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: in the advisory committee.

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Right. Right. As soon as the advisory committee makes that recommendation, the funds go to the art acquisition fund. And then But we've we've

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: already appropriated. We already approved in FY '26, but we're only halfway through it. 75,000.

[Joseph "Joe" Luneau (Member)]: Quick question. And is the $75 for FY '27?

[Susan Evans McClure (Executive Director, Vermont Arts Council)]: Yeah. Which is things like off the table. We're gonna pause on

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: that, which I'm good. That's great. Okay.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Okay? So FY '27 is off the table. But you can designate the 75,000 for FY twenty six to the new Newport Courthouse. Great.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: And what we'll do is transfer it to the acquisition fund that's proposed for this project. The advisory committee in two years may be coming back to the agreement. It depends on the project. I think that's the flexibility we've given the program and how you've empowered the advisory committee to be able to have those discussions work for the with the Arts Council.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: So we have a clear path ahead? People are clear? Troy, you're comfortable because you're on the advisory committee? So two things. We'd like to know what the balance is in the acquisition.

[Wanda Minoli (Commissioner of Buildings and General Services)]: We can get that back to you.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: And the other thing, if you could be thinking about the inventory piece and maybe some language or something we can put in the capital bill when we get it, two year project, a two year budget, be thinking about that. And maybe we can put in some language for that. Okay? Great. Thank you. Thanks, everyone.

[Brian Minier (Member)]: You have a good day.

[Alice M. Emmons (Chair)]: Thank you. So we are shifting gears. Can we take a five minute break real fast?