Meetings
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[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Can you push this button?
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: No, that should be muted. It's But, no, I had this turned on. You had that muted. Sonya, can you do a quick review? We missed, I apologize. Since 01:00. Since he started.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: I can do that really quick.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Just really quick. Thank you very much. It was Emily that saved the day. You. You hear us, Emily? You're Emily. Thank you for telling us that.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: So real quick, I'm going to try to recap fifteen minutes and two minutes. Charlie Baker from Chinookown Regional Planning Commission here on behalf of all the RPCs that stay. The RPCs have separate responsibilities from the Land Use Review Board. All the RPCs are on track to submit our regional plans by the end of the calendar year. This is kind of the staggered schedule of when we're doing the first submission to the Landis Review Board, the pre application submission. And after the Landis Review Board reviews the regional plans that provides a designation for those towns. And if the town opts in, they get partial Act two fifty tier one B exemption. And then this is how the land use areas line up with the designations and the potential exemptions. Any more questions on this slide?
[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just a comment. I like the way you put it out there, in terms of what the RBCs are responsible for versus what's going on at the state level. And, of course, you you gotta feed some stuff to them, but they're dealing with some of the probably or some of the more controversial issues. And I was just, you know, just a comment in terms of how our Addison County Group has been doing. There was a lot of concern, especially in some of the rural, small rural towns that, you know, are very heavily forced and kind of limited areas where you can actually build and very concerned about whether they'd be able to find any housing there anyway. Adam and his folks at our regional planning commission was very good at holding hands and clarifying in the future land use map material, explicitly, some of the guidance didn't talk about housing in particular in some of these areas. And people said, well, of course. But, you know, please say it because that that helps calm some of the fears that, yeah, you you're gonna be able you're in tier three kind of thing, you're gonna be able to build a home.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Just kudos to you guys because I know you all work in here. Well, and I'll I'll come back to the housing question or issue a little bit. Sorry. This is one more version of this is what the RPCs are focused on in these tier one areas. Review Board has road rule in tier three. That was already crystal clear. And then just to give you some sense, these numbers are, they're probably two months old now, so don't take these numbers straight to the bank, but this is a rough sense of how much of the land area the state has ended up in the areas that the towns are planning for growth, the 1B eligible areas. So this isn't all the areas that towns opted in for, this is the eligible areas. It's about 2.2. One notable number that I know is way off is Central Vermont RPC. They are producing their first map like right now. So we'll get their first draft map in the next iteration of this table, but it'll be more than 0.8%. I expect it'll be more like the other regions, it'll be two point something percent of their region. So I think we'll get, maybe we'll climb up to 2.4, 2.5% of the state. The interim exemptions were 2.3 and just that's a little different concept, when the 01/1981 passed, they didn't want to wait for these maps to be done. So there were interim exemption areas, quarter mile around village centers and half a mile around downtowns that have added up to 2.3. The legacy designations, so we've had designation program for twenty something years now, maybe twenty five years, they totaled 0.3% of the state. So this is some significant increase in those designation areas, seven, eight times, maybe more, that's how we get done. But that gives you some sense, I think of the land area that towns have really, and there may not be water and sewer in all these places, really where towns are planning for growth is 2.5% of the state. Because we can add the 0.3%
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: to 2.2%.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Legacy designation. Oh no, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry, I'm just estimating Central Vermont will be a little higher, so it'll be a little higher than 2.2. I don't know exactly what but
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: yeah, sorry I didn't mean to that.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Think you have gotten one B and one A. No, no, no, no.
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: Is there any other question?
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: And housing targets. So that was another piece of this was that the state, the Department of Housing and Community Development was supposed to develop statewide housing targets. You can see the table here over the right, they did targets for 2030, but they did a lower and upper target. So they kind of gave us a range. You can see the numbers for 2030 were somewhere between 27,041, and then out to 2,050, 79,000 to 172,000. So those are pretty big ranges. I would say in general, Seneca from NVDA. I think most of us are kind of using like a midpoint in 2050 as kind of like the long term planning kind of a goal. When we're talking to communities, we're really trying to be very careful like there's no accountability. This is a target, but it's really a planning goal to see if you can get there. You can see they vary by county. The Vermont Housing Finance Agency worked with the HDD to really look at how much land was available that didn't have resources on it and stuff. So these numbers, they're customized to each region of the state. Important note down here, as we've been, and this is fairly new information we just talked about at our group meeting last week, kind of the RTCs are ranging about 50 to 70% of these targets being able to be accommodated in those tier one B eligible areas. So that's a lot of housing in two point something percent of the state. But it also tells you like that's where sewer systems are and that's where denser zoning is. There's a big difference if you can do eight dwelling units an acre versus one dwelling unit every 10 acres, right? So it's a lot of density there, but also keep in mind the flip side of that is probably 40% of the housing still needs to happen in rural areas. So we should not be shutting down rural housing growth. And also I think Let's Build Homes presented on Friday. I think they were like, I can't remember 70% of housing over the last fifteen years has been in these rural parts of the state. So that's been the geography where most of the housing is for at least. I'm sure if we did a poll in this room, most of you live in rural Vermont. How long am I? Right, everybody's gonna say I'm wrong. Okay, excellent. Except for one. I don't. That's probably about right. I'm gonna find that AFE. Berry is rural.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Berry City? Exceptions recorded.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Yeah, and 80% of Vermonters live in So a rural this is not, we are the most rural state, we have a large lot size of any state, so none of these are surprising. So just turning a little bit to 03/25, we've had a lot of meetings with towns and residents over the last year, a lot of focus on these tier one B eligible areas. Actually been working with towns, we've been trying to see if they can identify at least one center where, you know, even if they don't want to opt in, but they could at least still get the designation benefit. Two major issues bubbled up. One, there isn't really a good process for us to be able to amend our plans or to make tier one B requests outside of this first cycle. And then secondly, when we really started digging into the statute and working with Allure and other partnerships, there was a lot of definitional content in multiple sections of statute, which was really painful for our staff. And actually there was like a period where we didn't realize there was some other language that we needed to look at too. Oh, that language is slightly different than the language over here. And so anyway, couple of the, this is in section 11 of three twenty five is the regional plan amendment process. And there's three major changes in there. One, community investment board, rather than waiting for the RPC first public hearing really should be involved in that pre application review rather than waiting till later. A streamlined process for amendments, so rather than nine months, maybe a couple months, like, yeah, we'll have a couple of public hearings, but this is an amendment. We're not writing the whole thing again. And then also a streamlined process for tier one B chain. So that's in section 11 of three twenty five is really this amendment process is very important from our view. And then this definitional issue spreads across multiple sections of three twenty five and you can see reference here section 12, section 13, section 16. And this is really, I guess what I was going to summarize, they're trying to get all definitions to be in one section of statute so that our successors have a little easier time than we did understanding what statute's saying. There was the smart growth language was in a different section, seems like that should be up here with these planning definitions, so adding that back in. And then 16 was really about the designation program and clarifying that step one centers do not have to have historic districts, which always was the case, but it kind of got muddied with some extra wording. And you'll kind of, you may hear this referred to as, geez, the RPCs want to remove the word historic. And we love historic things. But the reason that we're asking to remove the word historic from one definition is because there's historic and non historic centers. So I think last Friday I made reference to, sorry, I happen to live with representative Duke's district, but in the new North End of Burlington. Like what is that? Like it's community but it ain't historic. A historic bagel? Maybe it's getting there. And there's other communities, I think, heard about Brookfield, where they're trying to move their center out of their historic center that is flooded, to a new center around the school. So we are looking and our towns are looking to maybe have some centers where they aren't centered right now, they're not historic, but they're addressing flooding issues or other issues. Just so you have some context when you hear that concern raised, that's why we felt like it was really important to be clear that particularly the Step one centers do not have to be historic. And then this last slide is really just articulating some support for what else came out of 03/25, which was extensions on implementing the road rule or delays, is a better way to put it, delay on implementing or extending the interim exemptions, extending tier three rulemaking, John is making sure it's documented. Now, thank you.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: No, I just appreciate the fact that you're using our zoning map as your backdrop.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Oh, that is true.
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: Yeah.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Also 03/25 also is removing one barrier for town at the time to 1A. So previously the law kind of indicated that if you wanted 1A you were gonna have to take out all the F-two 50 permit conditions that existed in your town right away. Instead, a more thoughtful way, it's like when that property comes in, then you review it and you take on or decide which Act two fifty conditions are still relevant and pull them into the municipal permit. So they'll have a smoother transition from Act two fifty to municipal permit. And then there's a study for DHCD to look at the impacts of discretionary reviews at the municipal level.
[Unidentified Committee Member]: What does that last one mean? Municipal discretionary.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: So I think this is coming, well, some of our towns have done form based codes. Have you heard about this term? In essence, I think it is trying to make the zoning more objective and so that a property owner can really understand and know when they've complied or not, as opposed to a lot of the reviews that happen now under traditional zoning have some element of discretion like, you know, is it consistent with the character of the area? That's a biggie. Yeah, and that's, I think that was a question that was being discussed. I understand. Yeah, that was all I got. That's But a good that's kind of the latest on what's happening with, from our view of what's going on with 01/1981
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: and 03/25.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Questions for Kevin?
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Jonathan? The thought we may have heard from the biggest towns earlier today was that not all of the interim exemptions were included in that extension, do they have varying dates, or was it related?
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: They said the priority housing projects maybe or not.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Yeah, the priority housing projects. That was, that they had not been included in the language history. I am uncertain.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: So the priority housing projects were delayed to 2028.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Oh, they should be different times. Yeah, yeah, and
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: the rest is delayed to 2030.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Yeah, okay. And that's 03/20 Yeah, there were a couple of different dates in there, and I think the same thing. I think the road rule was delayed till 2030, and tier three rulemaking might have been, or mapping might have been delayed till '28. So there are a couple of different dates in threetwenty five and sorry I'm not a total expert on that.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Thank you.
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: For the record, my name is Dave Seneca. I'm the director of the Northeastern Vermont Alumnus Association of Northeast Regional and one of our regional planning members like Charlie and Chittenden County and the others. So just to know where we are in the process, we're getting ready to look for a board to vote to submit our draft regional plan to the ladies who be board next Thursday. There's a lot of work. We have 55 towns so we had to meet with each one of them once, but a lot of times more than once, sometimes up five times. Been lengthy and iterative process, So we're hoping we can get there at the end. One of the things that Charlie touched on were the hopping targets. We have those in our region just like all the other regions do. One thing that I noticed in a bill that was unrelated to S-three 25. In 03/27, I believe at one point, there was funding for brownfields. And in our region, we have EPA brownfield dollars. There's probably five RPCs in the state that actually have a connected EPA program now, but the others don't. So the brownfields is a critical part of funding projects in our region, redevelopment projects, including housing. So right now we have, with our regional affordable housing provider, six projects in the pipeline that we've done with the front work, with the environmental work, and that saved money for the actual housing projects themselves. So if there's a way to add funding back in for the state brownfields program, that would be nice. The other thing I wanted to talk about was the rural industrial development program. So in addition to being an RPC, we are our regional development corporations on the twelfth and we're actively looking at two rural industrial development, I'll just use the term RIP if that's okay. We're looking at two RIPET applications currently both from the city of Newport. One would be partnered with federal money to use RIPET money to actually purchase the whole and downtown Main Street in Newport. So those applications are underway. And if there can be changes to the program that make it more attractive rather than that 20% of total cost of a project up to 1,000,000, if we could actually make it a larger percentage of the project, what we could use. The other project in Newport, and you may remember your committee's visit up to Galveon Newport, the factory. Yeah. So we actually have an opportunity to buy 30 acres of land right behind that facility to add on to Newport's industrial park, we would get rid of that as well, but that would be something in combination with debt financing. So the less debt we could have to take on the project. And I guess that's pretty much two programs I wanted to talk about. And then the veggie sunset, I would totally support the medium sunset if it's all possible for economic. Questions from Dave?
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: What kind of responses are you hearing from municipalities talking to them about the mapping?
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: For the mapping? The largest concern in our region, probably like other regions, is the tier three and the road map. We don't have a lot of areas that are eligible for exemptions like the tier one areas. We do have a lot of rural areas as you know. When you apply the potential tier three maps and on the rural, much of our region is going be subject to Act two fifty. I saw the letter from the rural caucus that were many people signed on to the appeal, and I think my towns would greatly support that as well. Definitely. And I think a lot of our problems essentially go away, the defense then.
[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. I share your concern as well. I was looking at one of my towns that I represent. Mean, the topography is such that there's a lot of forests and hills and stuff, and then you have air, you know, where the roads go, it's a little flatter, you can build something. But the way, you know, this is one town. So it's suitable for building. But then I think I don't know. I'd probably get you some of the terminology wrong. But somehow, it's overlayed at some of the habitat corridor stuff, it it way to wipe down, you know, the suitable land. Now, I'm really fuzzy on how that will be applied to tier three and all that,
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: people are worried about it. Agree. Questions, debate?
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: Thank you. Thank you for your work. Thanks for both of you for
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: being proctored coming in and chatting with us. Great. So, committee, I think that's it for today. So next week, check your agenda. We'll be looking at our skills Monday. First thing, we're S-one73, so we'll be having the blood balance, S313, So it's wrong on we're having Julia and Ezra from Joint Fiscal coming in and talking with us. Then we'll be looking at, after the floor, S327. Main piece of that, right, for that discussion will be the C PACE proposal that just come over from A new piece that we're going to add in. Great.
[Unidentified Committee Member]: What's the acronym?
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: What was the case? Commercial case. Okay.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: And a piece that we're adding in?
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Yeah. They've been taking testimony. Yeah. They took testimony. They did a straw poll yesterday. It came out eight zero one, I think. It's just the weird energy and digital infrastructure. Okay. What do mean? So it ran over there, but a lot of it has to do with us because it's financing, and it's a great place to drop it into 03/27. Okay. That's I was misunderstanding what the Yeah. Okay. Got it. And Wednesday, we're looking at s three thirteen probably all morning. The afternoon, we have the floor, then we have caucus of the whole on the education bill. And Thursday, I think we're looking we have tourism day, nine
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: to ten in Room 11. Then we'll
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: be looking at S 198. We're gonna see if we can't move that. And S 173 to see if we're getting closer, if we can move that, and see where we are with 327. Then Friday, I think in the afternoon, we'll be we're talking thirteen as well. So I think all of these bills are getting close for us to move. I want to get
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: the ones that we need to get
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: the other committees out quick so that they can deal with it. I want to make sure that we still have some work
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: to do for the end the session.
[Charlie Baker (Executive Director, Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission)]: Physically, now, if anybody's interested in maybe providing testimony on any what we'll be taking up next week, who should they reach out to you for a committee assistant? Do we have a Jonathan. Jonathan's Yeah.
[Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Make sure that Edye and I are happy about that. Okay. Thanks. Have a good idea. Yep. Okay. Any questions, committee? Great. Thank you.
[David "Dave" Snedeker (Executive Director, Northeastern Vermont Development Association - NVDA)]: We're done.