Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: I'm sorry. You're the old fellow, aren't you? I'm the old. It's nice.

[Rep. Monique Priestley (Clerk)]: Pretty nice.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Good morning, everyone. This is the Vermont House Committee on Commerce and Economic Development. It is Friday, 01/23/2026 at 10:37 in the morning. So we're back from the floor, and we're here to hear a report on the Vermont training programs. Randall, thank you for joining us this morning. And contrary to what Cheri Kornheiser has told you, we'll treat you very well.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: You. Yeah, she was hazing me this morning. Sure. Thank you for the record, Randall Zaat from our training program. Before we get into the report, there's sort of two things I'd like to address, if I may. One is that my coworker, Kelly Chambers, was gonna join me, but she's not able to join me. She may be watching us streaming, and I think she had never seen testimony in in the house before, so she wanted to come and see that happen. But I think she'd really just wanted to see me sweat and be nervous. So there, I hope you enjoy it. And, secondarily, just something that doesn't really appear in the report is the if you ever want, like, a recharge of your Vermont pride, you should go on business visits with me and go around the state. Since I took took over in, June, I've traveled 3,500 miles around the state, and, I've visited all sorts of businesses all well, not in every county, but in most counties. And it's amazing. Like, the things that you see. Like, I was just on a business visit yesterday, with a company that did, they they worked on the, film Beauty and the Beast. And I apparently, I saw it, but I don't remember it with any detail. Apparently, there's a scene where a chandelier crashes in in that movie. It sort of falls from the ceiling. They do motion tracking, and they they did these sensors all over a real life chandelier, and they modeled that. And then so the animators could have, like, an actual realistic, you know, crash. Right? And you just like, that sort of thing where I visited a biz business south of here that, manufacturers the little, metal, little metal tabs that you see hanging on electrical meters, like the little plastic piece. They don't make the plastic piece. They just make the little metal wire piece. They just stamp them out. And when I was at the machine, I think the counter was at a quarter of 1,000,000 or something like that. Again, you just go around and you see all these things that are happening in Vermont. It's really impressive. And also, you see the business folks who are, you know, really doing their best to make make it work here. And you see folks like I visited an entity in Chittenden County, and they work in aerospace. And by all logical business sense, they would be located either in the Houston, Texas area or in Southern California or on the East Coast Of Florida. But they made a specific choice to locate here because they grew up here, and they wanted to have that kind of employment available in this state because when they were a kid, it wasn't available. And, you know, every time I go on these biz you know, these visits, I'm just like, my Vermont pride just really swells because you see people who are making really tough decisions sometimes. So I just wanted to preface with with that. I assume I didn't prepare a presentation for the report, so I assume you've all seen copies of the report. The the one thing that I think is the the most telling statistic from the report aside from the number of businesses that we work with and the number of, you know, workers that have been trained is the wage the median wage growth. I think that's the the thing that you can kinda track across all of the previous reports. You'll see that the wage growth for participants in the program always exceeds the wage the the statewide wage growth for other workers. So whatever whatever sort of metric you wanna look at with the program, I think that's the one that really stands out is that, you know, these folks are getting upskilled, their wages are increasing, and their increases are outpacing the background growth in the state. And, you know, that's a real win because as wages grow, so does revenue for the state. And it's really effective use of taxpayer dollars. And that would be my primary kind of takeaway for your for all of you. I didn't know if you had any specific questions or if you want me to keep on running through.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Why don't we run through the report and and we'll open it up for questions.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Alright. So as I noted in the executive in the executive summary, that's where I sort of highlight the fact it it it appears elsewhere in the program, but I I highlight the fact that there's this this, 5.4% wage growth for participants, and the statewide average during the same period of time was 1.6%, which is pretty dramatic. And as you'll see, we in in the in the fiscal year '25, we had about $1,100,000 awarded, and that touches anticipated 30 workers, and that's 47 businesses. And the businesses assisted pieces, I'll just point out that that number doesn't necessarily encompass the totality of businesses that we gave business grants to because there's two sort of two paths. There's the training provider path, and there's the business grant path. So the majority of what we do is, business grants. However, there are training providers that touch multiple other businesses. So those numbers are included in that 47. The business grants is a slightly smaller number, but the vendors end up touching a few more businesses beyond that. And one thing to note with that as well is we have wage and benefit requirements for the program. When training providers work with businesses, the businesses they work with also have to meet those wage and benefit requirements. So there's not it's not like a a way that you could kinda access the program without meeting those requirements. Even when you work with a vendor, outside trainer, those folks also ensure that they meet those requirements. You can see here on page four of the report, you can see the various kinds of grants and businesses that we deal with. And maybe not surprisingly, advanced manufacturing is the, you know, the vast majority of what we deal with. In general, the program is supposed to prioritize businesses in the SEDS economic priority, you know, identified as SEDS economic priorities. And that typically, you know, is you know, every once in while, get ones that don't quite fit in there or they're sort of tangential to it, but, you know, they are included. The grants by region piece, know, one of the things that was discussed is you see this, and representative Cooper might might wonder, he's like, or, you know, hey. The Southwest, $0. And that was just the nature of the applicants that we had. But you you you know, I believe that for this fiscal year twenty six, MAC molding is going to get a grant. So they didn't get one in fiscal year twenty five, but we, you know, we didn't hit the Southwest fiscal year twenty five, but we're we got it in fiscal year twenty six. One of the things I'd like to highlight under the business grant summaries is just an interesting one to me because it was one of the very first ones when I took over that I dealt with, which is the A's Auto there at the top, and you see employees to be trained as two, and the maximum award was $6,400 So that was one when I first saw it, and I didn't really have a full grasp. I still don't have a full grasp of the program, but when I and now I have a fuller grasp, I was sort of like, oh, I don't know if, you know, we can really help these people, etcetera, but it was nice to see that we can actually, you know, help smaller businesses. And again, you know, $6,400 for some of these other businesses like a beta technology, you know, is nothing. But for a business, you know, this is a I think it's a handful of employees down there. For that business, you know, makes a big impact. They needed some upgraded in their, licensure for their drivers, and we were able to help support half the cost for that. And so it makes a big impact. And we could kind of move down to the completed business grants, and all that really is is exactly what it says. It just sort of indicates here are here are businesses from f y twenty four that we also dealt with and the nature of, you know, these little codes here, the activity like IE US, those sorts of things that's, when you see IE, that's incumbent workers. If you see the NH code, that's for new hires. And, it just sort of indicates, you know, some folks strictly deal with upskilling incumbent workers. That would be the IEUS. But in others, you'll see that you have new hires for you know, NHNP would be a new hire for a new position. And sometimes it's, you know, new hire for an incumbent position, etcetera.

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: Thank you, Linda. On that am I seeing then that's where we see the NPs, a new position is the headcount is going up. Is that the employer? Yep. At the employer. Mhmm. Is there a follow-up on how long are those positions known to be permanent? Are they known to be temporary? Is that

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Well, they're you know, the support for all of these are required for full time permanent workers. They're, you know, they're not intended in any way to be for temporary or part time or seasonal workers. They're for full time permanent positions. Okay. Thank you. One thing you'll see here, I'll just highlight this for instance, on the completed grants from 2024, you'll see that MAC molding was there. So this is just a sort of procedural piece there. You see that MAC molding was 2024. We had no we had nothing for 2025, and now we have something for 2026. That's part of the, you know, excuse me, the design decision on our end is that typically if a employer seeks funding one fiscal year, we ask that they sit out at least one fiscal year before coming back. And typically when they do come back in that subsequent fiscal year, you know, we have a conversation to make sure that again, this isn't becoming part of like a regular budgeting item for them, but that they do have unique new things that they're trying to pursue or, you know, substantive business. Sorry.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Also,

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: in that in that regard, there have been historically I I I don't I can't give you the examples. There have been historically, though, instances where there have been exceptions made for a business that had funding one fiscal year. They came back the next fiscal year. My understanding is that's typically, you know, in a very extraordinary circumstance where they are intending to hire a bunch of workers or they have a brand new product line that they really need to get people upskilled and trained up on. Then I think there's a conversation that happens and says, okay. This is this is a unique circumstance, and we'll address that. The item six on page 11 is sort of what I was talking about before. That's the list of our training providers that receive funding. Again, if I don't know how familiar you all are with the program, but this is an instance where you can help businesses almost in a sort of back end sort of way. Right? These are folks who provide various kinds of training to businesses, and we support half the cost of the course or training that they're doing. So they're able to offer the course at half the cost to the business. And the advantage for businesses in that case is if there's an existing vendor that has support from us, the good piece for them is they don't have to go through the application process. They just simply sign up and all they have to do is meet the wage and benefit requirements. And so sometimes, you know, a business will reach out and they'll, you know, it happened, to like two months ago, business reached out and they said, you know, we're interested in applying this, that and the other. We wanna take this course from UVM. And I said, oh, which course is it? Turns out it was a course that was already being funded on our end. And I said, oh, well, you don't even have to apply. Just sign up and UVM will give you that discount. So they were like, you know, thrilled. We don't have a particularly onerous application process, but it's nice to not have to deal with it. Right? Just sign up for the course and off you go. And then, you know, again, on the back end, when UVM completes that training, they send us invoice, and we make them you know, we make the the cost hold for them. So

[Unknown Committee Member]: let's see.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Lot of this is other sort of perfunctory stuff or restating things like the median quarterly wage change. This is just a specific part of the report that enumerates the change and, again, notes the difference in the wages. You'll see the the median hourly wage after training in our program for new hires is $22.00 4, and for incumbent workers, it's $34.70, which is, you know, it's a pretty solid Vermont wages. And you'll also see some of the employer size for our employers on page 13. The sort of you can see the gamut that we sort of run anywhere from, you know, zero to 19 all the way up to greater than a 100 employees. And we're, you know, we're always happy to see like I said, we're happy to see large applications with lots of workers and getting lots of workers trained up. But we're also happy to, you know, again, help small smaller sized organizations as well. And one of the great things that I again, know, having been in the legislature now on the other side of things, you know, it's just really great to see the way that this program was implemented and the latitude that was given to the agency in implementing this because we really have a lot of flexibility that I'm able to talk to businesses with a straight face and say that like, this grant is here to support you. We're going to work for you rather than you working for the grant, because I have worked on some other grant programs where it really feels like the business is put in the position of having to like answer to the grant and rather than the grant being responsive to them. So we have a situation where, you know, a business will apply and they'll say, we were planning on doing these three trainings with these workers, etc. But again, these are businesses, the business requirement changes. You know, they think we're gonna put all these resources in this product line, but we realize now because they they applied nine months ago that we need to pivot to something else. They can come to us and say, hey, we thought we were going to really invest in this area, but we're realizing that we really want to invest in this area. We say, Okay, you know, come in and show us what you're going to do. We can amend it and get it, you know, get it out the door for them so that it can actually serve their needs instead of saying, No, you said you're going to do this. You're not doing it. So sorry. You know, we were able to be very flexible. Same with workers. You know, they're trying to predict how many hours of training a worker needs to get up to speed on something. Right? So they say twenty hours for worker X, twenty hours for worker Y, twenty hours for worker Z. Well, may turn out that worker X, you know, is done in ten hours and the other worker needs more time. And we don't say, gotcha. You know, you didn't use all your twenty hours for this worker, you're out of luck. It's, oh, you didn't use your twenty here, you can use it over here. Because again, you can't predict how, you know, how workers are going to respond to the training, etcetera. So we're able to be flexible then to make the grant really, really work for them. So it's a it's a it's a really it's a really great program to work for because I get to say yes a lot instead of no. And it's really great because I can see how much the business is appreciated because they're so used to being told no, they're so used to being saying, no. You can't do that. No. You can't do this. No. You can't change that. And when they talk to me, they get, you know, they get a yes far more often than a no. Thanks

[Unknown Committee Member]: very much. Trying to understand the it looks like there's a

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: big difference between f y a 24 and grand amounts and f y 25, and I think that had to do something with a grand, probably a federal grant of some sort. No? The Global Foundry Loadchers. Yeah.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Global Foundry is just like a problem. Okay.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: So I'm thinking about this year, though, too, and

[Unknown Committee Member]: there's probably requests for funding for the program this year.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: You mean an increase in funding or just

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Oh, I see. It's an ongoing thing.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Yes, it's an ongoing What's

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: the event?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: It's like 1.2, I think, every year, somewhere in that neighborhood. And it's been that I don't think there's been an increase in, I don't know, ten years or so. Again, I don't have the program mastery that I'd like to know that, but I don't think there's been an increase or a request for an increase either, just to be clear, you know, because we we feel like we do well with the dollars that were allocated. We feel like we do we make a

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: good impact with what we have. Thank

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: you, by the way. I'm interested in knowing what sort of barriers to entry you see when you're out traveling around, and When businesses are interested but are not able to take advantage of it, what are the challenges?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Typically, it's really just more of their own internal capacity piece. So again, in the six months that I've been, I think I've been to one business that wasn't able to meet the benefit requirement. But again, the benefit requirements are fairly broad, you know, paid time off, is not a huge leap for a lot of employers. The health insurance is up to it has to be 50% of the premium, but it doesn't have to be health insurance. Health insurance is just one of a menu of items, paid holidays counts, dental counts, which, you know, that can be super affordable for your business to just provide dental. So it's not the they're trying to get get rid of me. I can

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: tell. Yeah.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: The I think it's mostly just an administrative internal capacity piece. And I think we get a lot of inquiries sometimes. We do get a lot of inquiries from businesses who assume that the program is a sort of a piecemeal program. Meaning, I have three workers that I wanna get trained up. Should I apply? And then and then

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: specific skill.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Well, no. No. I mean, they they they don't think comprehensively about their planning for a year because the way that the program's structured is we say because, again, with this whole sort of sitting out a fiscal year piece, we say, is it worth your time to apply to just get these three workers? Like, I I encourage them sit down with your various folks and say, what what training do we really need? What training we we've been wanting to do, but we haven't been able to do for whatever reason? And map it all out for a year, and then apply. Because it's, again, if you just do it that piecemeal piece, you get those three workers, but you could have done all this other stuff that you hadn't really thought of. And then you see the wheels turn a lot of times. They're like, oh, really? Like, I can apply for all you know, they say, yes, you can look at all of your training needs. And sometimes that becomes overwhelming for them, you know, or they have the roadblock of they go to all the, you know, product managers of the various things and they don't get back to them. And then they just say, you know, they get frustrated with, I think, their internal team sometimes.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: That's another question. Follow-up question is, so my understanding is owners cannot be included. Is that right? So I'm just curious, does that for our smaller businesses? And I was surprised to see actually a number of really small businesses on there. Let's say it's a business with six or seven employees, so the owner is integral to the day to day operation, and there's a need for the whole team to be trained up on something, or the owner needs a lot more training on financial management, for example. I'm just curious if that's a barrier that the can't, like, the training of the owner can't be part of it.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: I again, I have a very limited sample size of the six months. I did visit a business once where the owner had intended on participating in the training and and being compensated. And then I said, oh, you know, like, no. The owners can't we can't redo your wage replacement. Owner just said, oh, well, that that's fine. Then I'll just I can attend still. Right? I said, yeah. Of course, you can attend. We just can't reimburse you for the same time.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: They can still participate. They just

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Yeah. They but they just they can't be reimbursed for their time. And he seemed he he didn't even bat an eye at that. He's just like, okay. Yeah. I'll just attend and

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: you know,

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: it's fine. So but again, that's anecdotal. That's one instance.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: So if you're doing training for multiple people at a business, the owner can participate in the training.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: They can participate, yeah. You're just not going to reimburse them for their time.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Yeah, I see.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Have you given it any thought? Or maybe this is something to think about. In regions where we have small businesses that need financial instruction. There's multiple businesses, business owners that need that. We think about how we could utilize the training program to provide that trainings, not just a one on one, but if you can get multiple businesses just to talk about you know, the the things that that all businesses go through and the understandings that they need for finances.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: That's an interesting question. And you have me thinking because I don't know the answer to this. So please understand that I'm just thinking out loud right now. I'm wondering if if there was a vendor who could apply, right, in the other track and offer the course at a discount. Again, I don't know the answer whether that's forbidden or not, but that might be a way to kind of make that work is to get a vendor on board that says, we're gonna we're gonna do this financial management course for business owners or whatever it might be. And then, again, it wouldn't necessarily be an application process with us. It would just be that you meet the wage and benefit requirements, then they could just take the course at a discount. So that seems like an avenue, possibly.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: I just want to follow-up. That was where my brain was going to, is we hear from our smallest businesses that financial management and succession planning are the two biggest technical assistance needs. I think it's really interesting to think about. I hadn't fully understood the provider grants that you do as well. I'm really familiar with the grants directly to businesses. If it is possible to do a provider grant, like you said, to, for example, a vendor who's going to offer a right to financial management course that business owners across the state could sign up for, is, I think, super interesting to see if that's possible to do, and if not, if we can make changes so it is possible.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: I did see in there for bread loaf, was, Thomas, a question of Bennington. And that's employee owned, I don't So then ESOP.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Yeah. Well, you do get an interesting scenarios with ESOPs because yeah. Like but I think I I think my understanding of the interpretation right is not that it would affect an ESOP situation because it's a very again, I don't I don't know the legislative intent well enough to know. But, yeah, I think it's I think that's a different scenario. I think that judgment has historically been made that it's a different scenario.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Maybe, you know, it's something to think about and maybe try to develop and bring it back to us maybe for next year as to how can we expand the program to assist our business owners that need training, especially ones that are really small, probably their pockets aren't too deep at that point, that would help them actually elevate their business and be able to take on more employees. Jonathan?

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: Another topic, what's been on my mind is, I think a lot of there's you, chambers, and this is one of the limiting factors is that at the state, you're in person with a lot of people. You're traveling around to make these connections to get people to the pipeline. There's a lot of connection with regional development corporations. Do you have much contact with Chambers of Commerce who may be these organizations that have membership and that might be in a position to facilitate the shepherding the herding of the herding of cats that is required for having I think that we're sort of contemplating right now. Are chambers much in your in your rolodex?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: No. No. I go to the chamber events sometimes to have conversations, but not with not with chamber leadership per se, you know, mostly with the businesses that are also present. But as you know, I do outreach the RDCs, and I kind of do a lot of leaning on the RDCs and their connections and what they know about business folks in their regions. But, you know, that's definitely something that you have to think about and take recommendations from RDCs on. Sure. Okay. Thank you.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: How do we sign up to go on tour with you?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Well, again, the person in Cooper, you rubbed down in that in that in that region, you know, he he comes along. One of things that I started also mean, is not to answer your question specifically, but one of the things I also started was to do joint visits with the business services folks from DOL. We found that that's been very effective and helpful, again, for business because they have limited time. And if you can get multiple people in the door with them and say, here's all the services they have. You know, here's the you know? And typically, for instance, with new hires, the Department of Labor and, again, I don't know the details of it that much, but, know, they have support for businesses for new hires. So now I've sort of reflexively started saying to businesses like, hey. You know, if if your application's gonna involve new hires, be sure to talk to DOL. Here's the contact. Talk to them and see because they might be able to offer you support, you know, right out the gate. You can just get that, and we can focus, you know, over here. But yeah, no, the business visits are great. They're super fun. And you you never know what you're going to discover.

[Rep. Monique Priestley (Clerk)]: Can you talk a little bit about the comprehensive economic development strategies and how they play into the grants that are coming out?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: I see the sweat bullets here. No, I can't speak with any, I can't speak with any certainty. I would just be be faking it if I pretended that I could give you a good answer on that. I'll just say that, like I said, I know that we I've looked at it to see what those identified areas are, you know, healthcare, construction, advanced manufacturing, those sorts of things. And I know that, again, we don't typically have, like I said, we don't typically have a lot of applicants that fall outside the SEDS a lot of times. So it's not something that we necessarily really have to make decisions around. Almost all the folks that apply tend to fall in those arenas anyway. But no, I don't have any knowledge.

[Rep. Monique Priestley (Clerk)]: There are five year they're supposed to be every five years, so we should be getting new ones soon?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Yes. And I think well, as another matter, you know, I think the livable wage calculation's every two years as well, is it not? So I think we should have new ones for FY '26 very soon for our program because we use that calculation that JFO produces, and I think they do it every two years.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Think they did. Didn't they do it last year?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: I don't think well, I don't know. I mean, I don't think so. I thought it was

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: Are you referring to regional SEDS? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So that which there

[Unknown Committee Member]: are five? Yes.

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: So there's no No. No. SEDs anymore. No.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: SEDs. But it says that they're supposed

[Rep. Monique Priestley (Clerk)]: to be updated every five years. And they're the twenty twenty that are being used right now.

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: There's a new one for the Southern Region that that just came out. Just came out? This year, yeah. I can get you a copy.

[Rep. Monique Priestley (Clerk)]: Most of my other questions were asked by everyone else, because what we hear is from the small businesses and how do they work together to get access to a program like this is where our brain goes, because we're just trying to figure out how to support Vermont small businesses, some which grow to be Vermont large businesses, and some build their niche as a small business for their entire life, and that's what their intention is. So how do we meet every business at where they are and what their needs are? And it sounds like you're doing that and maybe we could be working together a little bit more to figure out where those gaps are.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: And to give the need more at scale versus one on one. Right.

[Rep. Monique Priestley (Clerk)]: I mean, you've got six more months of a cycle to figure out the whole job, and then you can start looking at process improvement. And how do we I'll

[Rep. Emily Carris Duncan (Member)]: be patient.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Right. Oh, yeah. Well, yes, we also transitioned to a new grant application portal as well. So that was fun to learn one whole system, and then we have a whole other system. Was challenging for sure.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: I also The training providers, though, I think there's a lot more going on out there because they all aggregate from different businesses. Like if there's a training on controls for furnaces or something like that, they generally fly to you and then they they go out and look for these people to train?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Yes. So that's a good question. So typically, in the ideal world, what we want is when they come in at the time of application, they are they already have folks identified. That's the perfect world scenario. We do have training providers that we have a history of working with, and so when they apply and they say, we don't have them identified yet, we give them what's called a conditional approval. We say, okay, because we have faith that you were gonna fill them because you have a history of having filled them in the future. But as a for instance, I have a training provider that doesn't have partners identify it, and they were asking me and they were saying, well, this is what we think we're gonna ask for. Does that seem reasonable? I said, well, because we don't have a track record with you and you don't have them identified. I don't wanna obligate all those funds and just have them sitting there. So we'll start smaller and see. And if you manage to fill them right up, then down the road we can because we don't do that with training providers. We don't do the thing where they have to sit out a fiscal year because they're working with a variety of multiple folks, so we don't do that with them. And one last thing I'll do, I'll just mention because I don't know if you all saw all the businesses, but I did kinda go and I don't have businesses in each of your districts, but I have businesses that I think are at least adjacent to your districts that you probably have people that might work at the businesses. So I just was gonna run through those before I go, which is the aforementioned MAC molding. Advanced power conversion has a f y twenty six grant with us. ARC Mechanical representative Priestley has a grant with us of FY '26. Rutland Regional has a grant with us in FY twenty six. New England Woodcraft, has a grant with us in FY '26. Rhino Foods has one. Rhino Foods is a great case. I don't know if you've ever dealt with them, but the woman from Rhino Foods, like, she's a perfect person. If you wanna have a business person come in and sell you on the program, we'll have her because not only does she love the program, she set up her own like seminars to sell the program to other businesses in the area, like doing, you know, my job for me. Thank you very much. And then had a follow-up seminar to coach them on this is how we maintain records, and this is how we track people's training, etcetera. Because sometimes people, again, the capacity question, they don't necessarily know how do we do that. We don't you know. And she's like, is how Rhino Foods does it, so you can just emulate what we do. So, anyway, Rhino Foods is one. Shaxbury cider is another, and then Husky was went back to f y '23, but we, you we had Husky in the past three fiscal years as well. So businesses that, I think, touch in your districts or adjacent to your districts anyway.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: I saw you have a couple of nonprofits in there too. Yeah. That's temporary shelter.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Yeah. That was a surprise when I started. And, you know, we have had discussions about it. You know, nonprofits are also businesses oftentimes,

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: right?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: I mean, some of these health care providers are nonprofits as well, but they're a crucial part of the economy. And then the nonprofit sector touches on a huge part of Vermont's economy as well. Having said that, I, you know, I think that historically, you know, the emphasis has been on businesses, manufacturers, dollar importers, that sort of thing, unless it's like a critical need area. But there is room, you know, for nonprofits. And in fact, there's, you know, we're in discussion with a nonprofit training provider that trains nonprofits. And again, when we were having that discussion with them, I was like, well, let's let's let's focus on and, you know, if you're going to be making this application, let's focus on the financial management side of things because that seems like the thing that there's a better nexus with our program if you're focusing on that, then, like, maybe fundraising is not so much, but that sort of thing. So, yeah, there are nonprofits.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: So we had Root? Common Ground. Common Good. Thank you. Common Good. And they are, I guess, a division of United Way, maybe. And they are looking to try to expand the technical assistance that they provide to the nonprofit sector. So it's interesting to hear that that could potentially be that provider grant for somebody who can do financial management. Thank you.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Any other questions? Thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you for having me. As you continue to learn about the program and going through, if you see areas where we could grow the program or make changes that would help, especially our smaller businesses, feel free to reach out to us and let us know what your thoughts are. Yeah, we've been champions of training programs. Wanting to take get into even our smallest businesses, so. But I think through, you know, through training providers, think that's the area where we can actually get to our small businesses as well, where they have five, ten, 15 people where they could work with a provider that can pull in other businesses for ease as well and provide that training instead of getting a direct influx of cash from you.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: Right. Well, right. And the barrier piece as well, like in that instance, everything simplified in that scenario for them because they don't have to do any time tracking, and they don't have to deal with multiple they, you know, they can just sign up for a course that they know that their folks need and off they go. So I think you're you're up.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: What kind of information are we getting back from the provider?

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: We get the businesses that they work with, the number of employees that they train. We get Are there any requirements of

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: the workers have gone through the training, they're getting higher wages, like we do, you know, through our through our grant.

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: I

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: don't think they do. I know that they that I don't know. I don't wanna I don't wanna give you an incorrect answer on that. So I'll I'll I'll try to make a mental note about that.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Off the book.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Hey. I like that.

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: Shoot it.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: How are you making sludgy? That's my

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: own overly busy brain.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Edye brings the heat.

[Randall Zaat (Vermont Training Program, ACCD)]: My coworker is going to enjoy it. She's going to love it.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Wasn't too bad. Great. Thanks, Randall. So we left off, I think, with what we wanted to so Abbey had Oh. I

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: don't have a lot of detail to it, but I can say that the Environment Committee spent a decent amount of time talking about the expanded bottle bill. I will dig into it to understand what they're looking at, but it's called expanded producer control of beverage containers, something like that. So I'll dig into it a little more, so

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: I understand what they're talking

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: about doing. But I did read the proposal, they're based on expanding what end amount to, like it'd be 10¢, they'd expand the number of things that you take the copy for. Yeah, there's a chart, I was reading a chart where it kind of shows, yeah, there's clearly pros and cons. Each of the options has pros and cons.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: No, there's been a decrease of three to five redemptions. A lot of businesses just don't take them, won't take them back even though that's against the law. They're required to pay if you sell it yet, But they're required to take it they haven't been going after businesses for refusing. Not I think one of the big problems with expansion is the ability for the companies that distributors have hired, their ability to pick up in a timely fashion. They have the same issue that everybody else does. They have a hard time finding a job. Right now there's redemptions that don't get picked up. I can start adding more product that's going to be redeemed, is a good thing, but you're to need, you're going to lose small redemption centers and you're going to have to have redemption centers that are at least 5,000 square feet or more. And that's expensive, it's expensive, Labor's expensive. The sorting's expensive. And getting 3 and a half cents a unit is not gonna cut it. There's a lot of things we have to think about.

[Unknown Committee Member]: You talking about the bottle bill? Apologize for not being here for the beginning of the conversation. We just started. Oh, okay. I spoke to somebody from Department of Liquor and Liquor and Lottery. Thank you. And he suggested that we actually dump the deposit altogether. In the state of Vermont and here's the reason why. In the state of Vermont, we have to recycle, And every single person has to recycle according to the law that was passed by the legislature years ago. I won't go down into my opinions of that, but we already have the setup for that. And the way that he explained it is that most merchants, it's actually a burden to take cans. And especially if you don't have a redemption center there because you have to take the cans if somebody brings them in. So you don't have a redemption center. Correct?

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: I do have one.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Oh, you do have a redemption center. Is it well, that's not business. I'm sorry. He did indicate that most redemption centers, it's more about getting people in than it is actually processing the cans. What's that? What do you mean getting people in? People come in for the dropping off the cans, but then do purchasing within the store.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Yeah. It can be if you're buying redemption separate from store. Oh, okay. Yeah, but the whole purpose is if you're going to be successful at it, you have to have a a high throughput of bottles to make it work. And you gotta remember too that you're you're paying you're paying out those nickels, and you're not getting reimbursed for a week or two weeks or three weeks. So you've got money hanging out there that you can't access. So then when you raise double the amount your output is, then you have to wait that long. So there's a lot of things to think about. And, you know, one of them, one of the thoughts is, I think from the distributor's point of view is just get rid of it because it's extremely expensive to operate the bottle bill. But it has done a good job of getting a lot of that stuff off the roads. And if it winds up on the roads, it used to be there were people going out to get it. But that's another argument for raising how much you get for it, because now we're not seeing as much, as many people out there picking bottles. So there's arguments on both sides. I

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: just mentioned something from general housing this past week, a presentation that I think we may be interested in from office of legislative council, commissioner, deputy commissioner, and general counsels of the Department of Labor, on the impact of federal changes on labor and employment in Vermont. There was some interesting elements of what's been taking place in the National Labor Relations Board and something I'd never heard of, the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, which was something that provided free neutral third party mediation services to public and private sector employees and unions in Vermont across the country. And about a little less than a year ago, an executive order was looking to close the agency. A legal challenge that Vermont was a part of came from 21 attorneys general and some Rhode Island federal court. The idea is that this is the loss and the loss of free mediation services and reduced availability of mediators dropping from 143 down to six or five. So this was an interesting presentation, one that we may have some interest in, and it's one that's posted on their committee page. So it's nice to know that Sophie and General Counsel and we're sort of tracking this for general counsel. That's something you may wanna keep an eye on since it impacts employees across the world.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: What is it? Good morning.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Oh, you're muted.

[Rep. Emily Carris Duncan (Member)]: Hey. There we go.

[Rep. Jonathan Cooper (Member)]: Yeah. I like to hear you.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: How you doing?

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Good. You?

[Rep. Emily Carris Duncan (Member)]: Doing much better. I got some medicine.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Oh, okay.

[Rep. Emily Carris Duncan (Member)]: The fog is slowly lifting. I'm very grateful for it.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Good.

[Rep. Emily Carris Duncan (Member)]: So I touched in on transportation. They are working on some budget stuff. The budget is looking a little tense, not gonna lie. So there is a $33,000,000 deficit that they're trying to figure out. The governor also decreased funding by $1,600,000 or no, 1,013,000.000. So the secretary has gone through and is looking at positions to cut. So it looks like there's going to be another reduction in force of 31 positions. 19 of those were filled, 12 of those were unfilled. And those are across eight in administration, 20 in maintenance at the district level, one in planning, two in highways, and then there's no change to DMV or central planning. Or, sorry, not central planning, central garage. So this is kind of offering some concern about maintenance for local and state roads. This is also, there also is a $50,000,000 increase in spending due to a 14% increase from the federal government, but that is pretty well earmarked for all of the interstates. So both Senate and House expressed concern about the kind of the tier levels of usage, because our state and local roads get used the most. Our highways get used a lot, but not in the same amount. But we also have a duty to keep the highways up to a certain federal standard. So, yeah, figuring, trying to figure all of that out. There was also last year, we passed a inflation adjuster for local budgets for the formula for local budgets. And it looks like that has not totally carried through. And it may be because some projects are finishing up, so it's cycling off, but basically that is not gaining as much money as they were hoping, which also is affecting the maintenance, the potential future maintenance, which all of this to say affects how our workers are getting around the state and how our products are getting around the state. Just make sure I got all that. I think that's everything. Okay.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Okay. Thanks, Emily.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Got it.

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: Anyone have anything on stage?

[Unknown Committee Member]: Agriculture is dealing with the after effects of a court decision about municipalities being able to zone and regulate agriculture within their limits. And they brought the Vermont League of Cities and Towns to the table. They're taking considerable testimony, trying to find out something mutually acceptable. Community wasn't really thrilled to suddenly have a new layer of potential zoning added. So, VLCT is assisting them. They're trying to come up with something that everybody can live with. Corrections and institutions, have you received any communication from Chair Emmons about asking us or you to come on board a letter of support for the matter that we had the joint hearing on. Know? Yeah. She mentioned it to me. Okay. So that was the only highlight. She said she was gonna cc me. I haven't seen it yet, but that's okay too. So I don't know if that's something that we're being asked to join in on as a committee or

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: As soon as she has it, then we can send it out to everyone. Yeah. On the on the it's only might wanna talk to senator Moreland and move you in on why it's happening. I don't know where the village of Orleans has a farm in the middle of the village, but the person that's there is raising hogs. Oh, no. It's pretty bad, really bad, and he work with them.

[Rep. Abbey Duke (Member)]: Oh, okay. So,

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: yeah. So I think hopefully they'll find some avenue of recourse without having to go to the extreme of modifying zoning laws.

[Unknown Committee Member]: I didn't have anything for judiciary, but just an additional item for the digital infrastructure committee was that it was raised that the budget for ADS was significantly lower than last year because they've divided the projects across the agencies. There's a little bit less transparency on what's actually going on. Might call a special session to look into that too. So

[Rep. Michael Marcotte (Chair)]: I have an early lunch back here at one. We'll talk, have that conversation with Rick about the AI executive president, and then have further conversations with him and have a committee discussion on our thoughts of how we approach AI and how all the AI bills that are circulating around different committees, how we should, and to the speaker on how we should deal with that as well.