Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Good morning. This is the House Appropriations Committee. It is Wednesday, 05/13/2026. It's 9AM, and we're delighted to have with us Doctor. Merlene Trump, the President of the University of Vermont, and Wendy Koenig, the executive director of government relations. And before we get started, we have one of our trustees, one of our legislative trustees, Rev Ode, who wanted to mention that there are some people that are watching on YouTube who are also trustees? I'm not sure.

[Rep. Carol Ode (Legislative Trustee, Burlington)]: Legislative trustees. Go ahead. They, Carol Odie from Deckers, Carol Odie, representative from Burlington. So I am a legislative trustee, and some of us are able to be here in person, and like Scott Beck and John Bartholome, you should be joining us. And then on YouTube, we have watching former Speaker of the House, Chatt Smith, former Chair of this esteemed committee, can be told, and former vice chair of the House Economic Development Committee, Stephanie Santoro.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Great. Welcome to all of you on YouTube.

[Rep. Carol Ode (Legislative Trustee, Burlington)]: Glad to

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: have you here. So we really appreciate you coming back. As you know, we're continuing to have conversations with the Senate. We're in a committee of conference. And so we're trying to take more testimony as we go forward. And think I you were sent a list of questions for us to talk about. As I said, it wasn't exhaustive. It was just kind of a quick, these are some questions we've had, and I think other committee members may have as well. And they have a copy of all the questions that email sent. So I will turn it over to

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: you and have you talk a little bit more about this program.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Thank you so much. I'm so pleased to be here, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to come before your community. There's some new information that I can share and a lot of things that in response to the questions that we've had that I've sought information and I've sought to grow my understanding. And I even spoke to our student body president and several other people, including our enrollment manager this morning, our VP of enrollment management, to really understand actual data about how these things are impacting issues like our enrollment, our engagement with the state, and that sort of thing. So I can certainly share with you our slide deck and just roll through so that you can visually see the facility. And then I'd like to share some information that I've heard from these folks that I've tried to get to. So

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: do you need to share the screen or be made a comment?

[Tiffany Bluemle (Ranking Member)]: Oh, did you leave the Zoom?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: I am on the Zoom, I think. Oh, it looks like it kicked me off. Let me let me reconnect. Search. Okay.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So this will be on our committee page, and some of us have people.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Okay, it's forcing me out in order to share my screen, so I'm going to jump back in.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: All just great, except when it isn't.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: At least I didn't open Zoom and have it say, you must update Zoom before you. Oh, yes.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: That's always a fun thing to happen.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That's where you're always like. Always when you're one minute before the meeting starts to check that this.

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: No stress.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Okay. So I'm in the waiting room. So I wanted to give you a visual sense of what this project will look like. And what you see right now is how the full facility will be framed. This is a bit of a timeline, and I'll move through this quickly, but you'll have this as a reference going forward. The project was approved and ground was broken in May 2019. In January 2020, the work of demolition and the work of laying, all the groundwork began. They poured the foundations, got the steel, were ready to begin putting up the beams, and then the pandemic hit. So what you see here is the conversion of some of our space into testing facilities and lab facilities. But there was work that we continued to do with the resources that we had set aside for this project to begin to inch towards the completion of the project in spite of the stalling of the main body of the work. So in February 2022, we completed a multiuse activity court, a climbing wall, a group fitness hub that includes this cycling studio. We were able to revamp the hockey locker rooms. We created a video room for our student athletes, a new athletics training room that treats injury and helps people rehab, an academic success center, which some people who committed resources to the project felt was really important for the future of the athletics program and the well-being of the university, hydrotherapy pools, coaches' offices. And that's just a portion of the work that was intended to be done. So if you go back

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: to that other page, the previous slide, that one. So what on there is actually done? I assume that's the entire project.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That's the reserve. Okay. It's mostly in the bowels of the facility. So things like the hydrotherapy center, the locker rooms, those are within You can point to where those things are in that? It's in various spots around the building, but for example, the the hockey locker rooms are here in the Gutterson. There are coaches' offices that span areas over here. So they've been done inside the building, but none of the major construction that was gonna happen to create the new facilities occurred. Okay.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: So can we go back to Yeah. About this for a second? So if you see the arena portion where there's a bee on the floor, that part has been demolished and the groundwork has been laid there, but that is not yet built. That is the big facility that will house

[Martha “Marty” Feltus (Vice Chair)]: I'm not sure which I'm not sure

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: what was that.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: One is

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: right here. With the V on the floor.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Oh, oh, ice

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: skating. That's just an open

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: I thought that was That's open.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: That's open stadium, but that's gonna have a ooze on it.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That is Oh, no. There's nothing there.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Right now But when it's done, yes.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: There will be a room fun.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yes, there I thought it was like a football stadium. If

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: you go to the next slide

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: And this is what it will look like.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: It will be where those large windows are.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yeah, that's helpful, isn't I'm going to read that

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: in the next slide. Exactly.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: So next to it is the Gutterson Fieldhouse, which already exists but will be renovated.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So that's not being completely demolished?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: No. The demolition work has been done. It's just that the construction work is.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So if you go back a slide again, the Gutterson, is this? Yes. Okay, so that's internal renovation. This is a whole new thing, correct? Right. And what are these?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: So those are the new student facilities. So where Patrick Gym is right now will become new facilities for the students. I think I have a slide for that. Let me pardon me for making anyone see sick scrolling back. Oh, no, it's just the same slide. Where the new facilities will be is where the current Patrick Gym is right now. Let me see if I have it.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Most of us don't. We don't know what any of

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: that means. Right. So the current gymnasium is where the Let me see if I've got it.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Is this that whole picture? That's what we need? The whole picture.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: Where you

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: The first

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: Patrick Gym?

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: All of that's been

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: is being demolished and rebuilt?

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: It will be. That's the plan? Yes.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: Okay. And

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: then it looks like there's a big open spot there, too.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: I think that's actual buildings that are Oh,

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: there's buildings.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yeah. And these two exist already?

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: Yes. And there's been work done inside those buildings.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: That's

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: where you see some of the locker rooms and the coaches rooms and the academic rooms. So

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: most of the activity is going to be taking place around this, right? Yes,

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: that's correct.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: What's this one right up there, that dark colored?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: There's a new facility that donors invested in that's a support facility. It used to be that we had the national championship soccer team last year, and we were having to have people go from the field into the bowels of the facility over there for locker rooms. There were no exterior locker rooms for soccer or lacrosse or any of those outside fields. So it's a new they call it a support building. The Pitsugales made premier donation to that. The Hilton's made a donation to that. And that facility now has a snack bar, a home and away team locker rooms, athletic physical fitness. If there's an injury on the field, they don't have to try to carry a student into the building. So that's a new facility that Pizzacovone supports. That's completed. That's completed.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Else have any other questions about this? Okay.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: So the blue is new. The blue outline. Will be. Yeah. Yeah. And that brownish thing will be built. Correct. Yeah. So what is the great There's two great buildings, the support for The Pitzer Gallery Building is attached to a gray building. What's there now and what's in the other gray building in the back of Those two. What are they So in the

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: in one of those grade the gray building on the left, that's hockey locker rooms. There's coaches' offices, various things. And then in that other one, I believe that's where there's some of the student facilities that Marlene was pointing to. Academic success. Academic success, etcetera, and some of the wellness areas.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Those two finished yet?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Yes. Okay, so

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: it's really all this other stuff. That's correct. That's correct. Okay, you.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Thank you. And I actually think those clarifications are important. If it would be useful, we can send you an image that has those things laid out on it. So why don't we get that to you that sort

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: of marks out those images?

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: It's just helpful to have the real visual and understand what it is the project really entails. So this

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: is helpful go through that.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Thank you very much. Thanks. So this is visually what the new arena would look like. So we have the Gutterson Hockey Facility, and that will have chair back seating, which it does not have now. We have benches. And our AD said, we're here to care for the lower backs of all Vermonters who come to hockey matches. Because people, you know, it's uncomfortable

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: to sit. On a bench.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Yeah. Especially, you know, maybe when you're 16, that feels fine.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: We didn't like it then either. But we want to Nobody does.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: And the new arena facility will have chair back seating too. And that's all currently benches right now. And this is what the interior of that new arena will look like. And the arena, it will not just modernize that arena, it will make it much more comfortable and will provide more seating. It will be the largest indoor venue in the state.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: How many people can sit there? About 5,000. 5,000? Okay. Yeah. So we don't have anything in the state at this point that has 5,000.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: For interior seats. Interior seats.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: The closest other thing is Gutterson.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: And that's the hockey arena. Right. If if you imagine that this facility could be used for concerts so historically, in decades past, Patrick Jim, which is the current gymnasium facility, hosted the Grateful Dead, Bob Dylan, James Taylor. When one of the last concerts that was hosted there came through, Sting stood up in front of the audience and said, it's been a long time since I played a high school gym. And we cannot attract those venues and or those kinds of concerts to the venue anymore for just that reason. So for decades, Vermonters got the experience of having those shows in Vermont. There is not a venue for them anymore. And if we want our next generations of Vermonters to have the opportunity to have shows like that, We've got to provide a facility that is available to them. Many of you may have seen that the Globetrotters just came to Patrick Gym. They told our AD, we really can't do this anymore. This facility is too small.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: How many can you see in Patrick?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: You know the number?

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: I think it's maybe 2,800, something like maybe 3,000.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: Okay.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Great. Thank you. And so we're our facilities are too small and we can't serve the state in the way that we want to. If you think about the number of young people that have played in that gym for high school championships and have had the privilege of hosting, like hoisting a trophy up there in our athletics facilities and then gone on to do incredible things. Those young people have an opportunity to be on that campus, and we want Vermonters on that campus. We want to have those young people come to school at UVM and stay in Vermont and make their lives here. And so we don't want them enticed away to other facilities. Family shows can be there. John Mclair from St. Albans lifted one of those championship trophies when he was in high school. He was a star at UVM, and then he went on to the NHL and was a star in the NHL. Taylor Koppenrepp was a basketball star who did the same. We host Special Olympics, but our capacity is limited. I got an email literally just yesterday from a Vermonter who had read this story, Matthew LaFleur, who works on Special Olympics himself. He's a podcast host. He's done a lot of advocacy work for disabled people. And he said, could you do a GoFundMe page for this? Because we want the whole state to have access to this facility. Gutterson Fieldhouse would be remodeled as well, so it would be better to accommodate things like Disney on Ice. And there would be a wellness facility that would be built that doesn't exist right now. We have limited space, but this is what that new space would look like. And I would love to share with you what some of our current students have said and what some prospective students said about that facility. A junior from Vermont now, this is from our student body president. I asked her, can you please share with me what our own students are saying? Why were students so strongly in support of this facility? And she wrote me and said, A junior from Vermont who uses the gym daily shared, I think the current facility is outdated. While it serves some purposes, I am not motivated to use this facility. As UVM tries to attract students, a newer, more advanced athletic facility will encourage students to attend UVM and enhance the culture and the school spirit. A nursing student from Massachusetts, an area we desperately need to grow in our state. A third year nursing student said, finding time to be active is already challenging with our demanding schedules. You probably know that nursing students have clinicals in addition to their classwork. Their schedule is very compacted. This is made more difficult with the conditions of our gym. The current gym infrastructure lacks the resources needed to properly support our student population, limited machines, overcrowded spaces. And this is something we can show in the data. We have had 900,000 visits in the last year to even our current facilities, 373,000 from individuals not associated with the university, 90 different outside user groups, 10 VPA championships. But we believe we would easily double that use with improved facilities. This student said limited machines, overcrowded spaces make it difficult to complete workouts and set us far behind comparable universities' gyms, and we've certainly seen that in the data too. One of the things that we know is our square footage per student completely falls behind any other public land grant in New England, where we have 0.71 square feet. Pardon me. It is allergy season. I'm so happy it's spring.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: I don't want to make a complaint. And yet But

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: pardon me if I Got

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: others who feel the same.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Sorry. Pardon me if I clear my throat. This would bring our square footage per student up to 1.71 feet and put us in a much more competitive standing against those schools. So right now, we are one of the lowest in the entire region. This student, the same student, the nursing student said, Exercise is an important form of stress release for students and escape from the pressure of classes, clinicals and studying. It is crucial that our facilities are able to meet the needs of students. UVM experienced a significant enrollment decline this fall. This news will come out today. We saw You may know, you've heard people talk about for years the demographic clip. You've heard the governor speak about it, the president of this university and others speak about it. That is the percentage of students, the number, the raw number of students who are graduating from high school because of students in that age group. We have reached the first year of the demographic cliff this year. It's about a 1% drop off each year. Because of the excellence of UVM, the quality of our education, we compete with schools that are much larger, that have Ivy League status and that have fifty, sixty, one hundred billion dollar endowments to provide support for students and facilities for students. It is becoming, because of the caliber of school that we compete with, it's becoming more difficult for us to compete. And in this, the first year of the demographic cliff, we saw a 15% decline. In enrollment or in applications? In enrollment for the fall.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: First year of fall.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That is tremendously significant, not just for our university, but for our state, because for every Vermonter we graduate, we graduate two out of state students who live, make their lives and work in Vermont. So when we underenroll students, it impacts every part of this state. It impacts our economy. And I had our VP of enrollment go back and look at data from what students said as they toured our campus and then gave feedback to us. And I'll just read two quotations for you. One said, The only real criticism I have involves the athletic facilities. They are antiquated and they present that way. The whole facility is a rabbit warren and would have benefited from a student led tour to guide them through the spaces. It would have been helpful to have visuals showing the new construction that would happen to give students an idea of how that facility could be better with time. Another student said, Some other facilities, such as the gym, were run down. A school like UVM should have top facilities. So we know it's impacting students' willingness to come to UVM. We need those students for the future of this state.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: I have a question. Did you have a question?

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: Yeah. So did your applications decline or did the people, the number that you accepted declined?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: We actually increased our acceptance rate. But when there are a lot of factors that are playing into this.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: The number of applications, whether they were accepted.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Yes, we actually had I was saying it was flat. Flat applications. Okay. But we accepted a higher percent. But what happened this year, if you think about the international landscape is our landscape. That's the landscape we compete in. And because of various policies, fewer international students are coming to The United States. That has impacted schools that, like, for example, Harvard. So if a student gets accepted to Harvard, and Harvard's now offering them more money than they might not have gotten in before, they might not have gotten the same scholarships before, but they've just seen a decline in their international enrollment. So they're reaching for students that would ordinarily come to us. So we were right in that squeeze spot, right in the center. Because of our excellence, we compete with these very top tier schools. But because of our capacity to provide the kinds of facilities they expect, they're taking those other offers.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Sort of a domino effect. Lynn, did you

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: have a question? Yeah, you're talking about the yield. Yes. The yield is the number of students who take those acceptance and then decide to come to you,

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: and that's gone down 15%. Enrollment has gone down 15%. Actually enrolled is Entrance students. I couldn't tell you exactly what the percentages, but I can get it to you. So we just had a presentation on this, and I can get you that data. Maybe you even have it at your fingertips. I'm going

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: to bring up an issue that has come up here in another row. Sure. I just want you to clarify. There has been, as long as I've been here before that, a desire for Washington to have a convention center. And you have, as the president, or maybe your designee has been added to the list of people who are in this group that are looking at the convention center. Apparently, the chamber has been working And on this for they came in as their economic development bill about economics, but they want to add your name to that. And I think my initial thought was that maybe they're looking at making this new and incorporating that into this facility. I don't know if that's true or not. I'm talking to someone from the chamber. They said, No, no, no, no. However, I know that you have been working with Burlington, with the administration to try to clean up, for want of a better word, Burlington, and to be supportive and help them. So can you address how that would this be part of a convention center? Would it be just an adjunct? Would it be nothing to do with it? Explain to me how that fits into this and why you're on that committee and what that means to you as the president before the I don't think the

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: bill is passed yet, but we just

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: But I mean, it is there. People will Right.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: I may, I'll defer to Wendy because this has a history that precedes me.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: Right. So I think we're very pleased to have been added to that committee structure. We have not been in close conversation with the chamber on this. I've talked to some of their folks, and we agreed that it would be good for UVM to be a part of that conversation. I think this facility, as it's named, the Multipurpose Center, has a lot of different advantages and could host various different kinds of events, including meetings. I don't know that it supersedes a convention center space. I think that we'll have to talk with folks from Burlington and the chamber about that.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: I would think given what this is, I think of a convention center, it's usually attached to a hotel, a large hotel, and there's all these meeting rooms, and there's I would see this imagine this more for concerts, having sports kids come in, other maybe single day meetings or something that you would but a but a three day convention, this doesn't seem like it's suited to that kind

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: of purpose. And I and and maybe to give another example of the kind of thing that would come in, we have a robotics competition that many Vermonters participate in, but it brings young people in from the region. And that robotics competition helps bring students into those critical STEM fields, And we host that on our campus, actually, to our current provost, who was at the time she began at the dean of engineering, brought us into that. And so she brings these really talented STEM scholars, but they've actually had to limit participation because we can't grow anymore in the space that we have. So I'm finding this all really helpful.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: It's great to have a much better visual than I ever had before because I was not even close But to we now get to some of the numbers as the Appropriations Committee. We now, I think, understand kind of what the project is. But some of the questions about the timeline, what the total project cost is, it was probably a different number when you started in 2019. So if you can give us some more data and history around that, that would be great. So we

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: have a board meeting today, and we are presenting an item to our board for us to go back and and actually have a professional reassessment of the cost of the project at this moment. We've done our own internal assessment of that. So originally, when the project was planned, it would have been about 100,000,000 all told. To do the parts of the project you saw those images of, that was about 75,000,000.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: And that was You've already done. Correct? Right. Okay. So you spent 75,000,000. Right.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: And that's partly the demolition, the laying of the foundation, but also all those pieces that you saw completed. When the project was stalled, and this is something that anyone who's worked in construction or worked in real estate will understand, I think, quite intimately, those costs escalated so much that now the balance on the project is approximately $100,000,000 So those costs escalated so much over that time that that's what we're looking at right now. So it went up

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: 120 well, it went up $100 You spent $75 So that's the balance, not the total. All right. And so how much have you raised toward that $100,000,000 at this point?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: For a lot of people who are donors, there are a lot of people who've made verbal commitments, but they want to see these donors have expressed a desire to see the state commit because they understand this as a state asset. And so they've said, we want to see action on the part of the state. And we have two really signature sets of donors who are interested in giving a significant portion of the project. The CEO of the foundation and I have talked to a large number of other donors. Many of the bites likely won't be as big as those first two are, but we're striving to fundraise every penny of this project so we don't have to turn to student fees for debt service and we can preserve our debt capacity for academic buildings that need to be upgraded. So we're striving to fundraise all of it. So I have been on the road talking with people about their commitments. So it's I I can until we get their signatures Right. Right. Which they are waiting to see what the state just wants to do. I can't give you a dollar amount, but I can tell you that I feel good about the path that we are on right now to fundraise the rest of that money if the stake can commit. Guess I need a little bit more than that. So let's say, yeah, they haven't signed it yet. But if people signed it, not asking you at

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: this moment to say who those people are, but if people were to sign those, what would you have?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Including the commitments from the state or no? No. Okay. It's not about that. Then I would say that what we are close to is potentially, right? All caveats, yes. Is probably about 62 or 63. Okay.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: And what is your timeline for completion of the project? Or maybe it's aspirational, but what's your plan to complete the project? So

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: when we get this new study done, if our board approves this new study, which I believe they will this week, that will give us also a sense of timeline and how the funds would need to roll in. So it pivots on this funding for all those other dollars to come in because we already have this deal, because the foundational work is already done, there could be quick action to move on the project as soon as the dollars are available for us to give out because you have to pay for the construction as it goes. Yes. You can't pay for construction on a commitment from somebody. So once we are able to sign, we'll have clarity about whether or not somebody's going to write us a check, or they're going to say, you can have this over three years. So we'll get that clarity, that certainty about when those dollars will roll in, and we'll have the data from the new study, if that gets approved, to know how quickly they could act.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So are you thinking probably not one year, maybe three years, five years? I mean, what My hope would be

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: I mean, I think that, yeah, I think three sounds like the right amount. But I will also say, you can tell by what we're saying this morning, we are motivated to get this done. Yes. This is important for the recruitment and retention of students at UGM.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: There's a question, I think Wayne you probably have a question

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: too, but we'll get to your question.

[Tiffany Bluemle (Ranking Member)]: Okay. Hi, thanks for coming. I am a rep from Burlington. My oldest went to UVM, both undergrad and graduate school. And I'm a fan of the university. I think one of the things that I have heard for many years from my kid and his friends is that a lot of people, that housing is a critical need and it is often what turns people away. Because they know that, and it is a terrible pressure, puts terrible pressure on

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: the rental market in Burlington.

[Tiffany Bluemle (Ranking Member)]: And I'm just wondering, is that a priority for the university? And where are you in planning for new housing? I haven't kept up with that.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: So we are in the process of we've opened new housing, Catamount Run, and we're in the process in a partnership, and we're in the process of opening new elements of that housing ongoing. And two

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: new buildings will open this fall.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Yeah. So we've continued to create new housing for students, and that's apartment style housing. But there was a new study that I would love to point you to that just came out by a UVM researcher named Joe, a m e n t. Joe Amant. He's an economist. He did a study on housing in Burlington between 02/2023, looking at costs, rental costs, housing prices. His conclusion is it's not about housing stock, that there are other factors. And so I I would encourage the committee to take a look at that because I think it is possible. I'm not an economist, and Doctor. Ehment would have to be the ones to tell us the one to tell us if this were accurate. But what his study showed was that it wasn't about housing stock, it was about the availability of that housing stock at a price point that people And could so he said they looked at purchases by LLCs and corporations, and that undercut the available housing for people and also allowed for a higher price point to be set. So I think it's not just about stock, but what we're trying to do is create housing that's below market rate to give accessibility to our students and to take pressure off of the housing market in Burlington. So we are actively doing that right now, and we have two new facilities opening in fall, and there's another facility that will come in that series of facilities.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Where are the two and how many students?

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: They're in South Burlington. They're grad school? Is that right? It's been open to undergraduate students now

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: as well,

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: with the availability of more units.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: And and how many students could live there?

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: I know that currently, there's almost 700 students that live there. And with these two new buildings, I think it's up to 400 more. I'd have to check on that for you. I'm gonna get back to you with that exact number. But I wanna add also that since president Trump started the job about a year ago, she's really worked very hard to create a good relationship with Burlington in the mayor's office and the city council. And we are having discussions with them about housing along with a bunch of other issues happening in the city because we think it's really important that UVM partner with the city on some of the critical issues that are facing Burlington right now. We have a symbiotic relationship. And so part of our conversations that we're having this summer will include our housing challenges and what we can both do to be helping one another with that.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: We recognize that it's an issue, and everything that impacts Burlington impacts UVM and vice versa. And so it's in the state's best interest for us to drive that forward and help that community thrive. It's in the university's best interest, and it is in the university's and the state's best interest for us to support all the cities in our state. And I sat down with our vice president of research and economic development yesterday, and I said, I want you to build a plan for me that shows how UVM can be a partner across this state in helping all of our counties thrive economically. How can we show up in those places and help our whole state thrive?

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: Eileen, did you have a question?

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: I had a couple. Just back on my question about enrollment and applications. You said your applications were stable, but your enrollment was down. Is that because you didn't accept some students or was it because some people backed out? What happened? How many did how many people applied and how many people did you accept?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: So we accepted a higher proportion of our students, of of our applicants this year than in the past. We made a significantly greater percentage of offers.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: So students are choosing to go elsewhere?

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: So after you accept the children's children's children's

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: children's children's

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: children's children's children's

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: children's children's Or do you you must have that data.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Didn't get you that data.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: It was See what I was getting to. I don't know how many of it. I would assume that you have a lot more applicants than what you actually accepted. That's correct. And so as you accepted them, maybe there wasn't time to turn them around and they did they went someplace else?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: No. That that was not the factor. We accepted a much higher percentage of students than typical, but there was greater competition for those students because of the demographic cliff and the reduction in international students.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yeah. It's sort of a cascading effect. I mean So you're telling you're

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: telling me they also applied someplace else and was accepted somewhere else also.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Right. That's in fact, it's typical students. I think the average is students apply to eight institutions. That's crazy, Molly.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So how it's happening is, like, Harvard used to take accept 3%. Now they're accepting 10 I'm making this up. 10%. Yeah. Which means they're pulling from other schools. So people who wouldn't have gotten into Harvard last year, but got into UVM are getting into Harvard and UVM, they're saying, Oh, Harvard. And that's what's happening. Although I have to tell you, I have a friend whose child got into UVM and Middlebury and chose UVM. I'm from Middlebury. So we know this house will happen.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: I'm just trying to square one up, separate different question, quite different question.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Yes, yes.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: I had heard that you've already purchased some materials for the buildings, my question is that, are there any of those purchased materials perishable, anything that you're going to lose now?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: I'm so glad you asked that, because one of the great expenses of a project like this right now with all the cost escalations that have happened would be the steel. And the steel was purchased for the framing when the project was when they were underway on the project before. So it is currently in storage, and it is not perishable, and it is ready to go up whenever we're ready to move.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So I have John and Tom with other questions.

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: We just haven't worked in higher education for a long time before not doing that too long during here. I'm now a trustee here from my psychologist here as well. We're all aware of it. There's this there's this step process here. So students, there's inquiries, who are interested in maybe a UVM here or other institutions. And we know the students are reaching out to multiple institutions because they don't know if they're going to get into their favorite brand. There's the inquiry part, there's the application part, there's your acceptance part, there's the deposit part, and then there's enrollment. Enrollment, right? So that's the string of things here.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Is they called the funnel. So you start at the top of the funnel and it narrows down over

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: time.

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: And just having worked so long in higher education, it used to be a pretty stable formula. That's right. So if you got a student, the inquiries, the applications, they came for a visit here, perhaps they get an acceptance here. And there's all those things kind of add up to, but when you get those deposits in there, whatever it might be, and they may deposit to more than one institution.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That's right.

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: That's true. And I'm really sure they're still trying to make up their minds here, but you can pretty much guarantee for a large proportion of those students, the deposit is gonna be in their own That's right. And they'll be part of the enrollment piece. And it's been hard here for sure. I mean, this isn't just a Vermont thing here. It's not just UVM piece here. This is across. The national

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: We've been talking about the higher ed cliff for many years. It's Correct.

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: And I I know that we talked about that, like, twenty something years ago, prepared the best we could at Vermont State College, by working in that realm of things. Yeah. And we prepared the best we possibly can, but the reality is we have fewer students who come out, we have students that are fewer high school graduates in other realms of doing it here, and there's a lot of competition out there.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That's

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: right. It's Students obviously wanna come and to learn at the UVM, Brookmont State Colleges or Middlebury or elsewhere, but they're also living in those places. And there's somewhat of an attraction there. And it's an important part of their lifestyle and their maintaining their wellness while they're in the learning.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: That's right. Yes. And as you as you I'm supportive of this project. Thank I

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: just wanna say that up front.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Thank you. As you heard from the students, there are students who've made a choice not to come because of those facilities. It might seem like a small thing, but people's wellness, like being able When I first arrived, before I had my ID processed, I got a membership at the Y, which is down the road from the university. And when I got there, there were tons of students there. So I walked up to all these students and said, why do you have a membership here? And they said, too much competition with Jim. Can't get on the equipment.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Okay. So I have a list of people.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: I have

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Tom, then Mike Mrowicki, then Lynn, then Marty.

[Michael Mrowicki (Member)]: Go ahead.

[Thomas Stevens (Member)]: Again, I appreciate the current history of how difficult it is to run a university in this political climate and what's been happening across the board, especially to private universities with briberies and extortion happening at the presidential level. That said, and that's I understand the facilities are subpar. The university made a choice back in the early 70s to stop playing football, to concentrate on others more academic oriented things. I And didn't live here, I didn't go to UVM. So I'm not going to say get off my lawn and say, why are we reinvesting in athletic facilities that haven't been upgraded for a long time? I get it. I also sit on a small philanthropic organizations board that gives scholarships to Vermont students who are obviously if they're applying for scholarships and they're smallish but they're not inconsequential to people who need the help. And the applications that I've seen over the years are getting worse in terms of what UVM and other state colleges are providing to those students with financial aid. So when you have an SAI, which is now the new way, I guess, of saying, estimated family contribution, But in years past, when it's been EFC, we've seen EFC zero, where the student, if they want to go to UVM, are still going to walk out with $40,000 of debt or more, no matter what we say about offering free tuition or tuition or covering tuition, which is not cash from UVM. UNH gives more cash to students than UVM does. And it's cobbled together with a lot

[Unidentified member (possible legislative trustee)]: of federal programs, are all in danger now.

[Thomas Stevens (Member)]: I'm just troubled when I see students from rural Vermont being told by the state university and state college systems that no matter what their family is undergoing in terms of financial stress and demographics, when they're told that their EFC is zero and then they need to take out loans that they're going to owe over $40,000 a year. For four years. Well, ten thousand or more a year. We're talking about room and board and fees and whatever else gets tagged on to the non tuition costs of going to college, including joining the gyms and being able to afford to go to concerts and all these other things. I'm just really troubled that this is the priority or I know that this is the project that we're talking about using scholarship money. And I know that $12,000,000 wouldn't be going out to students this year. I know that it's a small percentage based on interest and everything else in the programs. I get it. But I am troubled that there's this emphasis on buildings no matter how they're needed to try to make the business sense of the university's work. When in fact we have students, only 20% of which have come from Vermont, and I don't know what percentage of those are receiving financial aid to the needs that they have. It just gives me pause. And I just want It's not a real question because I'm sure you have lots of silos of where you need to raise money and help students. And again, I mean, get we take in a lot of students from out of state because we need the tuition level that we can charge out of state students. I know that we're the most expensive land grant university in the Northeast. Mean, there's lots of things that I know. But when I'm dealing with people's applications and I'm reading their stories, it breaks my heart to think that states I don't respect across the country in general, just as a political thing, have students that go to college at their land grant university for free or for really reduced costs. We don't achieve that. I get there's an excellence. I get there's a lack of money in a lot of different ways with a small state. But today, just listening to this and again, I'm going to read a bunch of applications from people who need who are going to walk out of college with debt that they can't afford. And the stories that one particular story, one particular person who wrote a recommendation recommendation said I was in the same boat and I had to drop out after three years because I couldn't carry the debt. But when I dropped out, I had to pay it back. So not only did they not get a college degree, they did not get a benefit of they had to pay for their choice, which made it feel like a personal fit. And that's what we engender when we don't take care of our kids. So I'm just gonna if there's not a question there, I just want to make sure that this conversation about using scholarship money for construction, no matter how important it is. If this were a mortgage, I'd want students to be the first lien.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Thank you. May I, Madam Chair? Yeah, please go ahead. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's a student like I was. There is nothing I care about more than making our university accessible to people. And as I have met with candidates for our CEO of the Foundation role, one of the things I have told them is we intend to launch a fundraising campaign, a comprehensive campaign, in the wake of that hire. And what I have told them is my highest priority is making sure that we make the university accessible, first and foremost to Vermonters, but then to qualified students who want to be here because those students affect our state when they come from out of state. It's not just about the revenue that an out of state student produces. It's about those talented students that stay here and give back. But those students when I was a senior, my beginning of my senior year of college, I was working three jobs at the time, and my dad was working double and triple overtime to put me through school. And I was driving on the highway to one of my jobs. I was waiting tables, and my engine seized in my car. Smoke rolled out of the engine. It lurched to a halt, and here I was on this highway with people going 70 miles an hour zooming past me, and I had to crank the wheel. I don't know if anyone's ever had an engine seize on them. Crank the wheel manually just to roll. And I was lucky I was at the top of the hill and I could roll off the highway. I thought to myself as that, as I rolled my car into a service station at the bottom of the exit ramp, I'm done. Now I'm done with college. The only reason I was able to finish is my college roommate loaned me her car for the entire school year so that I could go to all three of my jobs because I went to work every single day. It was an act of generosity that I would never be able to repay. But I worked my fingers to the bone, and my dad worked his fingers to the bone for me to go to school. I want those kids in school. We know they have talents that we can't replace with anything else, and we want those Vermonters to be there. So it is a high priority for me too. And I understand that the Senate proposal would refill that fund in four years' time, and we continue to give a high proportion of our Vermont students, you may know the figure, scholarships to support them being there. I

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: will Over 90 for percent.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Over 90%. And I will look for every way to defray those costs because our first responsibility is to the state and to our people, our students. And then we need to grow those out of state students. And it shouldn't be based on somebody's capacity to pay out of state tuition. It should be the students who are right for us and right for the future of Vermont. So I am committing to you that that is something that is an extremely high priority to me and that I will work on. And I actually believe this is a fundamental part of that puzzle and that this will not in the long term, because it is a one time form of support, will not rob students from the future and that we will support that work of ensuring that students can get scholarships. But I understand this issue in a deeply, profoundly fundamental way. There are very few university presidents in this country who are first generation who had a coal miner father. I understand that issue, and I will fight and work for it.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: I'm going to move to Mike, then Lynn, then Marty.

[Michael Mrowicki (Member)]: Thank you. Thank you for coming. Thanks for your work and jumping in here. And thank you for that dedication to what our students need regards to cost. I meet with students regularly and I've actually been shocked in the last couple of years how many students, smart students, industrious students say they can't even consider college because of the cost. And that gives me pause to think pulling money out of a scholarship fund. We're gonna take a bigger bump out of the fund, rather see it go to scholarship. I get the idea that you're up against a number of things. I'm just looking at this article about how China is making the investments The United States is pulling back on, and how our research universities are falling behind. And these are areas where I would hope nationally we could change the direction and make those investments too. So I appreciate hearing your dedication to getting students into the school and making sure that the scholarship is available, assistance and whatever we can do. I know UVM has tried to keep the costs as levels as they can in this bigger landscape we're dealing with. Looking at research, you know, we haven't talked about that, but it's the backbone of a lot of can you say something about where UVM is in that regard?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: I'm so proud of the work we've done on research. Are now Carnegie R1, which only 3% of institutions in the country are. It is the highest ranking for the research we produce. We produce globally significant research on our campus in virtually every area of the university, and we will continue to commit to that. I just gave our VP of research a new charge in regards to the responsibilities to grow that research. And one of the things we're trying very hard to do is to create interdisciplinary research models that solve problems, not just that come up with individual findings. But if you think about something like the catastrophic flooding our state experienced some years ago, that is not an issue that one thread of research can solve. It's going to require geologists. It's going to require climatologists. It's going to require social scientists. So we're working really hard to create collaborative research, interdisciplinary research institutes and projects that can be funded and supported to help drive forward the innovation that happens. That's health care that looks at issues that we face, particularly as Vermonters, like the research that's happening on tick borne illnesses in our state. The research agenda is really important as a part of our character as an institution, as a part of our service to the state, and as a part of the experience for our students. And I believe, and I'm so passionate about this issue of student access, and I'm so grateful, representative, that you brought it up. And I really believe that we can be a model at UVM of what a land grant university can do in a comprehensive way for the state. We shouldn't be a university on a hill. Everything we do should connect back to our communities, our state, that's bringing our students in the door, that's having our research serve the best interests of our state. And that's why this economic development piece is so important to me. And I've met with our chancellor of the state colleges, our community college presidents, and talked with them about, can we place our students out in communities around the state for co ops and internships So they're bringing the things that they're learning in the College of Ag, in the College of Business, in the College of Health Sciences to people across our state. So that research is critical to their learning, to our service for the state, and to us becoming a national model of that service. I'll give you a specific example. I was very impressed when Oregon State they won a national award last year. The Dungeness crab fishing industry is very significant in Oregon and in California. And the Dungeness crab fishing industry had been outlawed in California or been restricted severely in California because of whaling catchment in Dungeness crabbing nets. And Oregon people who were fishermen were very anxious about that being limited and people not being able to suddenly pay their mortgage or support their families. So the university partnered with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association, NOAA, and the fishermen and figured out how to do helicopter research driven tracing of whales with sightings by fishermen. So fishermen would immediately call in to the university. They would send out a researcher. They would track those whales. So they reduced whaling catchment significantly in the space of a very short window. They actually got research about whale patterns they've never had before, and it's preserved the Dungeness crab fishing industry in the state of Oregon. It was a transformative project. That's the kind of role we can play in Vermont in partnership with people in our state.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: I have Lynn and then Marty.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: Okay, I want to say I congratulate you because in this environment that's existed probably for over twenty years, if this is the first time you've had a decline in a moment of that size, that's really an accomplishment. Thank you. It precedes you. Yes. It caught up with you sooner or later, but it did catch up. And I come from a My daughter went there. She did very well there. I think I could talk to you about that experience, but I come from a different perspective. We talked about your third year of college, I understand what you went through because I was also first generation. I worked in a hospital, and my parents didn't give me any help. And that was a private institution, and it was Must have been hard. And I had debt. I had probably the equivalent of, I think I had $4,000 worth of debt. It should be like forty minutes or less, I mean, just from undergraduate. The issue is that from my perspective, with what we've experienced at the Vermont State College, which are a whole different kind of, we're not even in the same playing field, I mean, not even close. But the third year is hard. Anytime is hard. It's like the third semester for our students, or if they never apply at all, like Mike was saying. It's just the thought of paying $10,000 a year for something. I mean, you may as well just tell them it's $10,000,000 because they are never going to be able to come up with that money. Their families don't have that money. So I understand where you're coming from, and I do understand the high school gym issue. I come from a community that has spent many, many times in the hockey rink. I remember when the first edition was put in and they added those extra seats at one end. And we filled up the basketball court this year with the state championship for the boys. So I've been to these things. I know how important it is. I don't know how many times I've been to Congress. Dozens. The issue is, and I know a lot of those people that did well when they got out, including Martin St. Louis and Eric Perrin. I went to their graduations. The issue is that I've got another question that's a little bit different, but it's equally important. As the president of the university, you are the president of everything at the university. And one of the things we talk about in health care is the inability of trying to find doctors to come here, primary care. And the way I look at it and the way I see it, I know that a lot of other states do not accept anyone to their medical schools unless they're residents. And in the Western States, they've got a consortium of 11 different states that work and go to one university. I look at the MATCH, I get the magazine for the MATCH, Vermont Medical, and out of 118 students this past year, eight did residencies in Vermont. We've got students who come from all over the country. I mean, I understand that's important, who want to get the best. But I think that the way to go and get Vermonters to go and work in places like Richford and The Kingdome is to go out and accept Vermonters who are from those areas. What role do you play as the president as opposed to the medical center in enabling that? Because this is another serious crisis.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Yes. Thank you for that question. And I will tell you, so under our strategic plan, each unit will be required to identify initiatives for their team. So every academic unit, every administrative support unit will be required to identify initiatives, tactics, and measurable metrics to achieve those goals for the team. One of the initiatives that I have put in place for our leadership team is to address the health care crisis in Vermont. So it is address the economic challenges of Vermont and address the health care crisis in Vermont are number one and number two of the initiatives that I have put for my leadership team. So I've got groups of people working on those issues right now. And so it is a challenge. I have met with the CEO of our health care system, who is a UVM alum, double alum, and a Vermonter, and now CEO of our health care system, which as you noted, it's not been the history always for the institution. But he cares about Vermont like we care about Vermont. And so working collaboratively, he and I are looking for solutions that we can pilot with UVM Health Network and the institution that we can pilot tests there to try to drive out into the states that we can bring those resources to the state. So we're working on those models right now. But there are serious issues about ensuring that we train our talented students. And it is a serious challenge, both in nursing and with medical doctors. And I'm going to get you some data from the dean of our med school who oversees the process of admission into the med school about how that process works. I will make sure that we get that to you. But we are one of the premier med schools in the country for rural health care. And so that goal to work out in those rural communities is actually something we support. And I sat with Louis first. Many of you may know Louis first because of his And, role on you know, he just retired this year. And when he came to work in Vermont, he met with a physician who was a pediatrician in the state who said, You will never be able to get people to stay here to do pediatrics. And that person that he met with is retiring like he is right now. But one of our graduates has gone on now to take over that practice. So a Vermonter coming back to fill a position in Vermont that this physician told Lewis would never be filled. And so we are very conscious of that challenge, and we are looking for ways to encourage our students. The students who choose to apply to UVM are often highly interested in rural medicine. But we also need them to train in oncology, and we also need them to train in nephrology and all the different critical areas. And because we have a limited number of spots in our health care system, some of them will go out of state, but many of them will come back. And I can get you that data, but I can ask questions about what our role is in terms of the percentage of Vermonters that we connect with and the witchy program that you're referring to out in the Western United States. It primarily refers to there are reserved seats for states with no medical schools. And I know that very intimately because I was in a state with no state medical school. And so there were witchy seats at the University of Utah and at the University of Washington for Idaho students when I was at Boise State. But it was a very limited number of students for the whole state. It was four students here, six students there for the entire state from every state institution. And that's partly because the admission rates to medical school are so low. And one of the questions I've asked our academic medical leadership to consider is how do we open our doors more broadly, still be selective in terms of getting these truly talented students? But we know that there are more students who could be great doctors than get in the doors of any of our med schools in the country. Just we know there are more. And then we also want to ensure that those students who don't get into med school but who want to become physician's assistants, who want to work in some other aspect of the medical field, get connected up with those opportunities or to get them into our grad school programs. So we have people that teach on our medical school faculty that are PhDs in sciences or in public health. And we want people to pursue those fields because that impacts our state as well. So I will get some data for you. And I will tell you that that is something that the CEO of the health care system, the dean of the medical school, I understand that we are working on. And I'll come back to you with more on that next year.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So I'm going to move us on because we have more and we need to take a break. But Marty, you get the last question.

[Martha “Marty” Feltus (Vice Chair)]: Thank you very much for coming in and for filling this in on all of UVM's projects and understanding the academic and the student life, how that's important to us. We're the money committee and what I'm struggling with is, would we be better off, we have this windfall that has come into the Higher Education Trust, and that's great. But would we be better off helping UVM and Vermont Psychologists and CCV by spending more money on scholarships to help your enrollment as opposed to spending money on physical facilities that would help your enrollment as well. But wouldn't we have a better impact by spending that money on the scholarships to help your enrollment that way so that you get more students in who take it. We want students there to take advantage of the academic facilities that you've already built and your faculty. We don't want your faculty to have to diminish in size because your enrollment is going down. We want students in there for the academic work and we want them to have a great student experience. They should have nice dorms and a nice gym and these event spaces. I know those are important, but I'm wondering if the impact of our money is better spent in getting more students there by giving them more scholarship money so that they can enroll. Is that a better way for us to spend our state money? And I think maybe we need to look at the guidelines that we have for this, the commission that works on the Higher Education and Endowment Trust Fund. What are the guidelines to disperse that money? Maybe putting greater emphasis on Vermont students as opposed to out of state, perhaps out of state students, although that may already be there.

[Wendy Koenig (Executive Director of Government Relations, UVM)]: The money only goes to Vermont students.

[Martha “Marty” Feltus (Vice Chair)]: But taking advantage of this extra money that has come in, not as just a surge of doing a whole bunch of extra scholarships and then not being able to do that for five years, But to figure on a longer term way of emphasizing the use of that money for scholarships because I'm thinking that if we can encourage the enrollment in that way, it would be a better use of the state's money rather than encouraging enrollment by improving your fiscal structure. So, I wonder how you feel about that. Would it be better just for us to try to put more money into scholarships so that you increase your enrollment that way as opposed to this other means?

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: I really appreciate the question. I'll tell you that I met with our leadership and all of our academic leadership yesterday to talk about this enrollment decline. And what I said to them in no uncertain terms so I led a university through crisis before. I led a university as president during COVID. And the university I led came out better on the other side of COVID than it was before COVID hit. And that was a shock to a lot of people internally. But it was because what we did is we invested in the future well-being of the university. Instead of trying to patch the short term problem, we invested in the future well-being. So people had to make cuts and had to make hard decisions. But just like then, I told my leadership team yesterday, but you also have to invest in the future of your organization. What should it look like? What do you need to do to be sure that in the future, you're the best place for our students to be? This is a one time investment that money will refill according to the plan the Senate has put forward. And so we'll have that scholarship money in perpetuity. But right now, we know that we have to build the university that will serve students in the future if they don't choose us. And I'm very sensitive to this issue of students feeling like they can't, like they don't can't even think about college. So one of the things that I did, so I do think it's an investment in the future, and I do think it's the kind of thing that will actually help us recruit even our own Vermont students. But I think a lot about this issue. I saw this in Idaho too, which actually had a lower the same very high high school graduation rate that Vermont has and the same very low college attendance rate that Vermont has. And so this chair of the San Francisco Federal Reserve, which is the group, the Federal Reserve that oversees Idaho, had toured the state. And she came back and told me that when she asked young people why they didn't go to college, they said, because I have to buy a pickup. And a pickup is expensive. A lot of kids live on ranches and farms in Idaho, and they said, I can't buy a pickup and go to school. So what we did at the university is we determined what people's personal costs would be, given the scholarships we would give an in state student, and compared that to a cost of a pickup, and we did a tour around the state to help students understand. So we were able to show young people all across Idaho that if a new pickup costs $45,000 the amount of money they were going to expend for all four years was gonna be less than the cost of a pickup, and that it would pay them back more than a million dollars more over the course of their lifetime. And so we have work to do here to educate students. And when I met with senator Sanders, he said to me, is there anything I can do to support the work that the university is doing? And I said, please use your platform to tell Vermonters about the Vermont Promise Scholarship. Tell them that if their family earns less than $100,000 a year, they can come tuition free, and that we will support their effort not just to get loans, but to get grants that are free dollars to help support their education. And so he actually did the thing that I asked him to do and sent that message out, and we got more inquiries about that. But we still have work to do because we have to help people understand in terms that are meaningful to Vermonters that there are many tools available to them to support their access to higher education. And then we have to do the work to help them get there. But I think that's an important project. But I also know you have to invest in making the organization healthy and structurally functional in order to have those students there.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yeah, thank you very much for coming you and seeing us again.

[Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member)]: So much.

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: For having a more in-depth conversation. And I think you're going to send us a couple of things. That'll be wonderful. And I think we have a better understanding of what this is all about. So really appreciate your time with us.

[Dr. Marlene Tromp (President, University of Vermont)]: Thank the you opportunity to come before you again and for your earnest questions. I appreciate

[Robin Scheu (Chair)]: it so much. Great. Take care. So committee, we're going to take a break. We'll get started at 10:35. We'll get an extra few minutes up. And we're going to vote on two straw polls on 02:43, which is going be on the floor today.