Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Reporting this as the House Appropriations Committee, it's Friday, 03/20/2025. It's a little before 11AM, and we are back from another roll call, a couple of roll calls. And we are going to continue our conversation with age 60, 57, which I'm shortening to homeless youth. I know it's more than that, but that was some of how it came to us. We have Chair Wood with us. I did check about judiciary. They saw the chair of House Judiciary is not going to have an amendment. I think that Chair Wood can talk about what their conversation around that was and also help answer some of our questions, because I think we need a better understanding of the bill than we do now.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Thank you. Theresa Wood here from House Human Services. So just briefly, in terms of judiciary, they took quite a bit of testimony. It was primarily around the immunity clause. And they are not going to be offering amendment, as your chair said. We are going be making The House Committee on Human Services will having a technical amendment on that. They just wanted to make one technical change, but it didn't impact the intent of the bill.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Pausing on that for a moment. Yes. Are you gonna have that today? Are we gonna just do a straw poll later? It'll be next week that we're

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: gonna be It's next week. Okay, fine.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Yeah. Thank you.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: And then also in that amendment, something that, cutting and pasting and all the different versions of this bill that we've had, was not in the bill, but it should have been. And that's the age for which I don't have the bill in front of me, unfortunately. I can't tell you which sections. But it's the sections that you were talking about, I think, just before we broke for the roll calls. And those ages are age 16 and 17. It does not apply to any youth. It's age 16 and 17. So For what? Is this I think what you have referred to, Madame Chair, is the runaway youth or the homeless youth. Call them unaccompanied youth. So those are youth who lack the active assistance of their parents or guardians. And what this bill does is it enables them to do, frankly, simple things like be able to make a doctor's appointment if they have the flu, be able to get or apply for a license, be able to apply for a driver's permit, be able to access a homeless youth shelter. Those are the types of things that this covers. So it is not for very young children. And I want to be clear that it is very rare for the Department for Children and Families to take into custody a youth of that age because they're reaching adulthood shortly.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: So when we talk about unaccompanied youth, we're talking about ages 16 and 17. 16 and 17. Yes.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: There's an amendment being drafted to make sure that that's Nolan is here.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Do you know what sections of the bill we're talking about with this part? Katie does. Katie does. Do you want to come to the table? Because I think we're going to have some confusion. And then I see that you have a question.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So it'd be section four of the bill. Okay. It would be section four of the bill where it would specify the ages. Let me pull up the amendment. It would be the definition of homeless child or youth would mean individual 16 or 17 years of age who lacks fixed regular and adequate nighttime residence.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Okay. So, this is not the kid who gets mad at his mother and runs away from home? No. Who's nine? It is not.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Right. Yeah, I understand. Okay, go ahead, Wayne.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: Okay, so

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: now Oh, I'm sorry, Lynn had a question, too. Lynn?

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: I was just gonna ask, how does this interact with the emancipated youth?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: I don't know the answer to that question.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel, Office of Legislative Counsel)]: These are youth who have not been emancipated. So this is a different process. They don't have the rights of youth who have been emancipated. There's some legislative intent language that's being added through the amendment that I think sort of is helpful in understanding the position that these children are in. It reads that in instances in which severe family dysfunction, such as abuse, neglect, child abandonment, or lack of financial support has left a child or youth homeless and other support such as foster care are deemed inappropriate, it is the intent of the General Assembly to provide an unaccompanied youth with the resources necessary to obtain services and benefits that the unaccompanied youth's peers can obtain with the consent of a parent or guardian? That

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: will be in the amendment.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: That's going to be in the amendment.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Yes. Okay. Wayne, do you want to ask a

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: few It's great that it's not little kids, but even 16 and 17 year olds, what my concern is, we already know, is that a child will certified as being part of this without anyone ever checking to make sure where he came from or where the child came from, what the situation was, from which the child came from. It could be a long case, if he was being mistreated. But this child might not divulge that to anyone without further investigation. So I just wanted to make sure that everything that's going on here has a duked up betrayal that ensures that if someone's not going to fall through the cracks, get into this, get a driver's license when his parents may know that he is not a responsible person that should be driving, and spin off from there in some way that we don't anticipate.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Sure, of course. And I think that what maybe can alleviate some of your concerns is that the social services organizations who are authorized in this bill to certify the individual, those are all folks who will know the individual and know the family circumstance. So they have a responsibility to understand, I guess I would say, it's not just a 16, 17 year old comes in to a provider that's listed there and says, I've got all sorts of these problems. And I saw this form on the website, and I filled it out, and I want you to sign it. That is not how this works. Anytime you have a youth service provider that is engaging with the youth, they are also engaging with the family and understanding what is happening in the family situation. And then they make a professional determination about whether or not that they will sign this form.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: I don't have any problem with that at all. The problem I have is that that's not the case. The child shows up at a homeless shelter, for example. Someone there is certified that he's homeless youth, And gets sent to that system without ever in any investigation as to where the food shop came from, who its parents are, what the situation was at home that might have caused him to feed men at that spa,

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: or whether or not he should run away or should be in some other program. Right. I'm understanding your question.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: So I haven't seen anywhere here where it specifies exactly what the procedure would be to make sure that that doesn't happen.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: So the current procedures for all of those situations. So the first thing that would happen is that the protection of the youth, in terms of any kind of physical harm that they might be at risk of, or at risk of not having shelter or a place to lay their head, essentially. Those are the sort of immediate things. If there's any injury that's happened or anything, those are the immediate things. These are all professionals in the field that have experience working with youth, and they have responsibilities. So for instance, in school, they have a responsibility to report that if they find that there is evidence of abuse. They can't just ignore The same is true for people who work in shelters or any of those situations. So I feel confident that not only is the youth protected, but that there will be sufficient understanding of what the familial situation is. It's not a matter of The first thing to do is to protect the youth. And then the follow-up on that is, what is going on? Who are the people I need to talk to?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: So what you're saying, just to clarify what I think I heard you asking, is a youth showing up at a homeless shelter isn't

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: going

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: to five minutes later get some certification that allows

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: them to do all this? They do lot of checking.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: I think that's what I was hearing you ask. Absolutely not.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: But then when you're telling me who's doing the checking, mean, I if it required a background check or someone like an investigative unit to determine where this child came from, if he wasn't disclosing things, I could see that those people that you're talking about wouldn't have the capability of accessing criminal or other kinds of records that might help determine the situation.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: I can tell you based upon the hours and hours of testimony we've had in our committee, not only on this bill, but on homelessness in general over the last five years, that if law enforcement needs to get involved, they are involved. And that's a responsibility of somebody running a shelter, if they see that something is happening. And they're skilled in getting youth to open up. I'm trying to use professional terms. But the reality is that when a youth shows up at especially a shelter that is designated for youth, and we have those that are designated for youth, those folks are trained professionals in understanding how to make that youth feel comfortable to share their full story. So if something needs to be reported to the police, if something needs to be reported to as a required reporter of abuse. I have full confidence that that is happening.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Thanks.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: I'm looking for the step by step things. It's all right. I see we're not

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: going to get there. Well, probably we'll keep asking questions and come back if we need to get more clarifications. John had a question.

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: I don't know if this is helpful or not, but it might be. There's a section here about proof of certification.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: It does point to Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't have the bill in front of me.

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: It's okay. It's on page seven. Think it's

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Oh, you got a raise. All right,

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: that's great.

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: So what I'm seeing with Prepwood is about certification. It references the form here, actually. It's a standardized form. So there's an intake set of

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: There is a whole intake process. Has to happen. Yes.

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: Is helpful, I'm sure, if this person's willing to open up to communicate why they want to be in this place here. That's what I'm seeing in this record.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yes. And that's

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: exactly It reference

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: The step by step Yeah. By

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: Kinds of things here, because that's not the purpose of the bill. Just to avoid what the form looks like, but to provide the intent

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: that makes me feel

[Rep. John Kascenska (Member, House Appropriations)]: good about what you're talking about here, because there is a process for that.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yes, thank you. Is that helpful? Yes, thank you.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: So I'm just trying to unsort what Rev.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Alors is worried about, and again, I

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: could be going wrong, but there is a youth that is having bad things done to them, and there's a real process in place for that. But there might be a youth who has done things. Is that the part that you're concerned about?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: I'm concerned with a child of any sort, whether he's done something or not, showing up to a facility where someone certified to certify that this person should be in this program without ever going through the steps of finding out where did that child come from, in the event that the child is falsifying things and not wanting to be found out, then there's no authority there, no investigative process by which they could actually do that. And someone could be injured in the long term if that happened. I'm concerned about that. And I don't Just a testimonial, Oh, it never happens. Doesn't make me feel good. It's that one person that ends up in big problems because of it, that sticker.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Okay, right. What I'm trying to assure the representative of is that the trained professionals in the field that this youth is going to have to encounter in order to get this. So they can't just go anywhere and print off a form and get something to sign it. The trained professionals have responsibilities to not only the youth, but to law enforcement, to their professional credentials to follow certain actions. And those actions are not going all be enumerated in this bill because that's not the purpose of the bill. Those are things that are contained elsewhere in statute. I don't know what else I can say to you, representative, other than, there is a process, there's qualified individuals, there are people who have specific training, and that's the best I can do for you.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: Does the immunity clauses that you've got in here in any way affect the part that I'm talking about?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Immunity clauses only apply to the action that somebody would take with regard to what is in this

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: bill. But

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: they could sign off, they wouldn't be have any liability if they've wrongfully signed off on, you know, some form for it?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Based upon if they did their due diligence and they performed, accordance in accordance with the statute, then they would have immunity. But if they if

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: there was neglect or they didn't And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: they did not report that, then they would not have immunity. That's good. Is that Okay.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: All right. Up page 10. Up page 10. Thank you. Okay.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Anybody go ahead. I'm just going

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: say that I suspect what the representative is asking about, I suspect this happens, is that whether it's a youth who is either not just with a family but might be a foster child or might be a non emancipated child that's roaming around, high school student, for instance. I suspect some of them do go to homeless shelters, maybe as their initial contact with some of these people. And then from there, if the high school hasn't taken care of or noticed it, they might very well be the first ones to know which would also They could very well. Yeah. But the point is that that, I suspect, is where the process would start.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: The process could I think that you're right when you say it is most likely the school is going to notice first that their student has excessive absences. My guess is it's probably not the first time in that student's educational career and that the students are most likely known to guidance counselors and teachers. Yeah, I mean, that is, for this age group, likely where it would happen. Or as you said, if they're aware of shelter services for youth, lots of youth are not aware of that. And I can tell you, I think that we heard testimony that this is Oftentimes, we find And I've seen it happen in my own community, where there's, for whatever reason, there's struggle in the family. And that youth, another family takes them in. The friend's family in high school, their best friend's family takes them in and they get through school and things are okay. That youth doesn't have the ability to apply for a driver's permit, to get a doctor's appointment. And even though they're in a safe place, if they have bunked in with another family, they still have the need to have access to these things. So things like getting a copy of your birth certificate, if you are wanting to, something that's required for that, I don't know all the documentation requirements for things. So yeah, we could probably all name situations where we've known of teenagers that, for whatever reason, have a rough time at home. And so this is really trying to help those folks.

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: Sometimes they don't go to in the area, they go somewhere else. Can remember a case of what this young lady went to Boston. I don't know what she did down there, but she was But it might have gone to

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: a homeless shelter. Maybe we have that here too. Yeah. Thank you.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: So do we have any other questions on this bill at this point? I'd like us to be able to vote it out and we're going to do the nine thirty eight next. So don't go too far. You're welcome to just stay right at the table. Any other discussion on this bill at this point? There are no amendments that we have. So I'd entertain a motion to pass support age six fifty seven as amended by the Committee on Human Services. Mike? Second? I'm not seeing that we need further discussion. So when the clerk is ready, you may call the bill.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Representative Bluemle? Yes. Representative Dickinson?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: Yes.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Representative Feltus? Yes. Representative Kascenska? Yes. Representative Laroche? Very reluctantly, Representative Mrowicki? Yes. Representative Nigro?

[Rep. Michael Nigro (Member, House Appropriations)]: Yes.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Laurel, yes. Representative Stevens? Yes. President Yacovone? Yes. Lindstaff? Yes. 700.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Thank you. Excuse me. Think you're the reporter of Okay. This Representing 02. Thank you all. Thank you for coming down. It was really helpful to get the clarification so that we Absolutely. So we're going to switch gears and go to Homeworth's continuing bill, which is nine three-eight. Three-eight. We're now out of the sixes and fives, so I'm not going to get as confused, I hope, on the bill numbers. We have an amendment, and we have a spreadsheet that's going to show us everything we need to

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: know. I've

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: to find the bill.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yes, two pager. It should say draft 3.1 at the top.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: It looks like this. If somebody lost We'll see what the governor proposed and what's being proposed in the bill with the same bill. Thank you. It's worth eight. So Chair Wood, if you'd like

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: to update us on what's happening with this bill, please. Absolutely. So as I mentioned yesterday, we had the bill that you've already seen and had a walkthrough of, and we've answered a bunch of questions about, had Section 14 just had one big lump sum in it, and crossover deadlines happen and we needed to get the bill out of committee. We knew that there would be an amendment because we wanted to delineate what some of those expenditures were going to be according to the language of the bill. So what you have before you is an amendment that is the same dollar amount, the same total dollar amount, 82,634,153. That has not changed. And what you see after that is what has changed. And these are additions to Section 14. And what it does is, as the bill states, FY 'twenty seven is a transition year. We do not expect full implementation of all the elements in FY 'twenty seven. It is a pretty significant systemic, hesitate to say restructuring, because it's not really a system within state government right now, but we are creating that. And so we knew that there would be opportunity or a necessity, really, to transition during this year. Transition for community partners, a transition for the Department Children and Families staff. We're moving all homelessness services into the Office of Economic Opportunity. So the Economic Services Division has, for many years, run what's essentially called an emergency housing benefit. The benefit really has been for temporary emergency housing, and it did not provide anything else. What we have seen, particularly since the pandemic, is the folks in accessing emergency housing need considerably more supportive services in order to really transition to permanent housing. So in FY '27, we agree that there needs to be a transition. So what you will see is a in between state in this expenditure. You're going to appropriate whatever you appropriate in the big bill, but this is saying how the program will expend these funds. And the first is $39,000,000 into what is known as the Housing Opportunity Program, the HOT program. I'm sure you've heard that. And I'll let Nolan run through the breakout of general, federal, and special funds global commitment. So it's $39,000,000 into what is currently understood as the Housing Opportunity Program, the HOF program. That funds a variety of shelter services and other supportive services. The biggest expense in there is shelter operations. But there are other supportive services in there as well. The next item is $4,400,000 for shelter development. And you might recall in the book that the Department for Children and Families gave us, there was what the administration is calling a housing proposal. They had, and you'll see the walkthrough when no one goes through the differences. I wanna remind members that this amount is 1,600,000.0 less than what is in, I think it was 6,000,000, that was in the governor's. But I want to remind members that a very large chunk of $11,000,000 that was left over in FY 'twenty five, that we did not see, through budget adjustment in this building, that the department used for shelter development. So there is additional funds out there for shelter development besides what we have here. And then you will see 23,870,000 for emergency housing in hotels and motels as we strive to continue to reduce the use of hotels and motels. And I want to pause here just for a minute to give you some appropriations history about that so that you know how this has continued to evolve. I was able to go back two fiscal years in the time that I had, but in FY 'twenty five, hotels and motels were appropriated in the emergency housing, dollars 44,000,000. That was a combination of one time and base funding and also contingency funds that year that did come through. FY 'twenty six, we appropriated $38,600,000 in emergency housing. That's this current fiscal year. And this is at $23,870,000 in emergency housing. So we are steadily decreasing the amount that is going to emergency housing. And the important thing about this bill is that this is investing in the supportive services that Vermonters need in order to actually successfully transition from those hotels and motels. So on the next page, you will see 2,400,000.0 for case management. This is about 1,000,000 more than what exists now in case management. And you see on number five, 4,200,000.0. That is for the current program of permanent supportive housing and family supportive housing. And the majority of that's in global commitment funds. 3,000,000 for rental assistance. And this is through the Vermont State Housing Authority. They will provide rental assistance to those folks who are essentially waiting for a HUD voucher. And as you know, those are not very plentiful right now. And so if we don't provide rental assistance, people aren't going to get anywhere. They're not going to get into permanent housing. Dollars 500,000 for grants to municipalities. This is the first time we are making grants to municipalities. And we wanted to specifically show this. We wanted municipalities to see that we have heard them and that there is some money going there to support them. And then 1.5 for emergency cold shelters, that's been done through a grant with Vermont Interfaith Action this year. They have been the sort of coordinator of that, and that was established in five or six communities this winter. And so that is continuing that. And then sort of a catch all for other. And then 3,100,000.0 for staffing grants and contracts. And that is essentially the call center that the department uses. It includes the 21 staff positions that you've heard people talk about here, and the administrative functions for the operation of the program. That's And So all those things add up to the same dollar amount that is in the governor's budget.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: I see you, Dave. We met yesterday with DCF and other folks at AHS to talk about this and make sure that the numbers were right. And they weren't first, and then it would went back and worked with them to get the numbers. So human services has been involved right from the beginning.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yes. Yes. I can tell you a little bit about the process just briefly. So I sent a spreadsheet. We had the dollar amount, the total dollar amount. I've maintained my commitment to working within that dollar amount. And I sent a spreadsheet to the Agency of Human Services with Nolan's assistance. And it broke out by all the different service levels that you see in the bill itself. They said, Well, we appreciate that the total dollar amount is the same, but we need transition time. And in fact, we do say that in the bill, that we recognize that the FY 'twenty seven will be a transition year and that not all elements of this will proceed in FY 'twenty '7, but they will be working towards full implementation in FY 'twenty eight. And so we agreed with that. But I said that there were certain elements that we needed to see broken out. And these are the elements that we needed to see broken out. So I And that number one is the rest of it, the sort of the flexibility that they have to Because they have a grant process that starts actually now, coming up shortly in April, where they put out the grant opportunities for all of the shelter providers and HOT providers. And they're due back by the May, by, you know, we're going to be in the, hopefully, the endgame of So the in order for them to start on July 1, and we this is shelter providers, so it's people providing emergency supports to people. They need to be able to access those funds on July 1, whatever ends up getting appropriated. So we agreed with that and said that we were willing to have this flexibility in this year. And then they've agreed to budget in the way that we've asked them to for next year.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Great, great. So I have Dave and then Wayne.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: A question. Who will be doing case management? Nick, you said 2,400,000.0?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: That is for community case management, community partners.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: So who will determine which community partners?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: The department, well, the Department, the Office of Economic Opportunity.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Do you imagine they'll do an RFP or

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: a

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: They will likely put out the funding opportunity at the same time they do the Hoffponds.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Okay. And what is the could you remind us, me again, the cap on the number of motel rooms now, and what will it be under the bill?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: It is 1,100 in non winter weather. So for April 1 to November 30, it's 1,100. And for winter weather, there is not a cap right now. Under this bill, the cap for non winter weather is 700, and the cap for winter weather is 1,000.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: What's

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: the effective date on that? Is that as of July 1?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: That is as of July 1, yes. And that's what this dollar amount in here for hotels is based on.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: So the bill gets passed, I know grants are happening now, it won't be functional till July 1, but the cap will be 400 less than what it is this year. Yes. How do we imagine people getting assistance when there hasn't been time, unless it's happening in ways I'm not aware, to develop shelter capacity? Well,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: the shelter capacity issue, I have always said, and I will go on the record as saying, we were never going to develop sufficient shelter capacity to deal with the full population of people who are experiencing homelessness. So there's over 4,000 people who are experiencing homelessness in the state. I make no illusions that this is serving every person who is homeless in the state. And is it serving fewer people than we are this year? The answer to that is yes. But it is providing a system that is going to provide more supportive services to those fewer individuals to create space in the system, hopefully, to be able to provide that transition to more permanent housing. So yeah, I make no illusions that this is serving every person who is homeless, and neither, I have to be clear, we do not do that now.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Right. And that wasn't my question. I wondered what was gonna happen those people in that range of 700 to 1,100, the difference this year. Do we just assume they're on their own?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: They're pretty much Yeah, I'm As some are today. I was just gonna say, that's actually gonna happen in a week, April 1. It's not gonna be July 1, it's gonna be April 1.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Do we know the half now that you say during these months is unlimited?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: During winter weather, it is. Well, I can say it's Sorry, excuse me. There is no cap in statute or in the budget bill. However, it is capped by the availability of the number of hotel rooms that are available. And the DCF issues a monthly report, and it's averaged right around 1,200.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Okay. So we're going to go from 1,200 to 1,000. 1,000. Same thing, so

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: But we

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: will have more shelter capacity next year than we do this year.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Do you know how much more capacity? What's the estimate?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: It's grown by about 100 beds this year. And I don't have the exact number, because they're coming on at different times, they're in different stages of development. So I can't give you an exact number about when they would be available.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Why would we It seems like, at least for this coming year, assuming the bill's passed, we're exposing more people to unprotected homelessness than we do this year. I understand they'll be getting services.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Is that accurate? That yes. That's what I said.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Yep. I'm just trying to digest it. Why why would I why would I support that? I don't mean that in argumentative way, but

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: I understand that. I understand that. I can tell you that this was not an easy bill. This was a bill that nearly died. And we came together. And I will say that as a person who's dealt in this space for the last five years, that is this my preferred bill? The answer is no. I'm not going to make any Is

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: that long

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: for term fiscal reasons, primarily, or design, or both?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: I'm comfortable with the design. I am less comfortable with the fact that I know that this will serve less people in terms of the actual provision of a roof over somebody's head. That's evident. And then, yes, it is because of budgetary reasons. And we feel, as a committee, that the trade off of the status quo for a system that will provide more supportive services and case management hopefully reduce the percentage of people who move into permanent housing and then become homeless again, between twenty five percent and thirty percent of those people return to homelessness.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: We don't break that

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: cycle.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: We want to break that cycle because we're using the same resources for that. Let's actually, David, one follow-up. Yes.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Will there be a system in place to determine who gets access to what we're providing? Yes. Or is it first come, first come? Could you just explain that to us briefly?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: There's a priority. There's a prioritization section in the bill. Do I have a copy of the bill handy? I thought I was just talking about, because we've already gone through the bill. I thought I was just talking about the amendment. I don't wanna misstate them, but so we should just read them off from the bill. Representative Yacovone.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Thank you, Chairman. I've done it. One

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: What page? Okay, there we go. Okay, a person who is I'm sorry, page 21. Person who's 65 years of age or older, has a disability, is a minor child, is pregnant, has experienced domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault, stalking, human trafficking, or other dangerous, life threatening conditions, or is under court ordered eviction or constructive eviction due to circumstances over which the household has no control. This is essentially the priorities of the current system.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Wayne? Yeah.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: I'd like to You know, my participant last year about the whole hotel hotel program, and I want to applaud this effort to teach them to depart into a program that actually tries to treat all the different types of people.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Can we stop there?

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: That's a relatively benign question.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: No, it's all good.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Ahead. JAMES DAY:

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Emergency housing money, the governor's recommend was 21.6. You've got 23.9. I'm assuming that I don't like assuming because you know what that word

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: You do.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: Assuming that the agency helped to come to that number in terms of what's practical.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: So let me be clear that the governor's proposal was to reduce even further what goes what access to hotels and motels. We came to a compromise that's between what we want, we meaning my committee, and what the governor wanted. And what's in the bill is the compromise. And so the governors I have an email, which I shared with your chair, that says the administration is supportive of the direction of the bill.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: So I'll just so was it did you have testimony to the to the need? I just wanna know. Within you're developing a system here.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yes.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: Within the development of that system, with the objective of eventually doing away with them, the hotel motel program, Then what was the was it just an arbitrary picking up some of the people who wanted 2.3? Or was it based upon knowing that you didn't have other capacities?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: It was based upon that we knew we were not going to There was nobody on my committee. I shouldn't say nobody. I would say 10 out of the 11 people on my committee felt that the reduction that was in the governor's proposal was too low. And yet, we didn't have sufficient funds to be able to invest in the system that we're creating here, unless we reduced it from what we are currently doing, which is what was

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: So you're proposing to use that money to help improve the system.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Exactly. And the expectation is that over time, this number is going to continue to be down. As we build more capacity,

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: I don't

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: think it will. I want to be transparent. I don't think it's ever going to be zero. It hasn't been for a long time. And this program dates back decades. And it just has grown as the rate of homelessness has grown in the state.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: Goals often are zero, and they're never approachable.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yeah, I'm not going say my goal is zero. I just wanted to be clear about that.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Goals, everybody has. My goal is zero. Many, too.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yeah, I understand your goal. Thomas?

[Rep. Thomas Stevens (Member, House Appropriations)]: I just want to take a minute to thank you for your work and your committee's work. It's been very much a part of both housing in general and human services efforts to try to reduce homelessness.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: It will never be material.

[Rep. Thomas Stevens (Member, House Appropriations)]: I just wanted to share when I was on the board at Down Street Housing during the last decade where governor Shumlin said 15% of all housing that receives state money should be put aside for people who are experiencing homelessness, which we were very close to. It didn't take us long to get over 15%, but the important piece was when we created a new building there were four apartments that were put aside to match that 15% and it took over 20 applications of people who were experiencing homelessness that qualify for that housing. So it's not as simple as saying, oh you're homeless, here's a place to go, even when there's a place that provides the services that you're trying to provide for us. Just, it's a real, that's a real life check on things, and I think your committee has struggled with having to make the allowances of what we're allowed to afford and what we're allowed to spend on. But I appreciate how hard the wrestling has been on this, not just this year, not just recession, but for the last five or seven years when it's really exploded. So I just want I support the bill. I acknowledge that you're making changes that don't sound good to some people,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: but it's what's possible, and that is really important for us to acknowledge. Thank you, Representative Stevens. And I will say that on the housing side, the housing folks have stepped up. That figure that was 15% is now closer to 30%, and in some cases, 40%. And that's still not enough, but it is improvement. And one of the key things that we find, and you all don't have the sort of hours of testimony that we've had on this, obviously, but there's a coordinated entry system that prioritizes people for the permanent housing when those vacancies become available or when new buildings come online. And as Representative Stevenson says, they often have to go through a number of people. But there is a prioritization system for access to new available housing or vacancies that occur.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: I just want to say, somebody who has this budget, the GA and the HOT budget, I really, really appreciate being able to look at those categories because it has been a black hole in the past. And I think it will help ensure greater accountability. It'll also give us just more data about, well, where are we underspending, where are we tending to run hot, and how might we tweak that over time. So anyway, I really appreciate your work to that.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: And next year, it will be even better because it will be by all the categories in the bill. Okay.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Which is great.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations)]: Thank you for all your work. Yeah.

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: Talking about more permanent housing, does your committee get testimony on how many or where does that go for VHCB housing and VHIP and all the different kinds of housing where people are allowed, coordinated, whatever the word would be, to go and find a place, a criminal place to live in. And obviously, one of the other things that I think that needs to be addressed more is the recidivism of this homeless churn that we have.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yeah, so I'll deal with the first one. And yes, we had testimony from VHCb, and I've worked with the staff there because, I'll be honest, I haven't always agreed with the priorities of VHCb. And we have worked through that. I'll give you a core instance. They are going out and in places where we know that there is a lack of affordable housing, I'll use Rutland County as an example. They were not getting proposals from Rutland County, yet we knew we had a large contingent of people who were homeless in Rutland County. And so I will say that I had some challenging conversations, and this has been over the last couple of years, and they are using data. They use data to look at where, based on the coordinated entry system, and that's only one component of what they have to deal with. It's a broader group. So I'm happy to say that they are actively pursuing those places and developments in the areas where there are larger pockets of people who are homeless. So that's been a good development. And yes, we have testimony from them every year, because they have been very busy over the last few years with the investments we've been able to make with federal funds. And of course, that's slowing down now or kind of stopped. But those projects are still in the pipeline and still coming online. With regard to the return to homelessness, that's really one of the key elements. It's one of the data points that we request in the bill. That's one of the ways that we'll measure the effectiveness of this bill is reduction in the percentage of people who are returning to homelessness after having been placed in permanent housing.

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: How about BHIP? Do you ever hear from BHIP or into

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: We didn't hear from BHIP this year, but we have heard from the Department of Housing and Community Development multiple times, last year included. We keep our eye on BHIP, to be perfectly honest. The administration last year wanted to remove the prioritization for people who are homeless, and we stopped that in my committee. And they did not remove that priority this year. So it's still there. So I didn't feel a need to have them in this year. Thank

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: you. Chair Wood, did you vote on your amendment in your committee?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Yes, it was nine-two-zero.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Okay, any other questions that I'd like to vote on this, Wayne?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: It's just quickly, was what were the objections? We

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: had one member did not state their objections, they just voted no. The other member gave a little speech. And essentially, the long and short of us, it was too much money for her.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: It's the

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: same amount as in the governor's

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: budget.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: It's the same amount as is in the governor's budget, yes. What

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: about the

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: full bill? Nine eleven. That's all. I looked that one out before. Okay.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Chairwoman. Are you done with me? Yeah, just want to say thank you. I don't have to vote. If you want to say thank to vote, you're welcome to. But I know you have worked hard on this for years, and we keep getting close to the finish line. And it feels like this is finally the year. I love the fact that there's accountability also for those that are using this program to get the services and that the intent to reduce the revolving door of people entering homelessness. One just feels like success is written up. So I thank you for that.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: You're welcome. And your committee have done. Thank you. Yes. I think data is important. Mean, that is one of the have to It's a significant investment. So we should be measuring whether we're improving the status of homelessness in Vermont. And if we're not, then we need to come back to the drawing board. But I think that this is a good effort to do that.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Thank you. So I think, Nolan, we can't let you go.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: No, just the record, Nolan went to a fiscal for anyone who has a hard copy. I've got a typo. It's kind of

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: The bottom lines are the same. All right, so Katie, are we voting on the bill as amended by Human Services? How do we do this? You have to take two votes, probably.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Yeah, you'd have to vote to move to that committee, right? And then you'd also probably just be the stronghold on the amendment.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: On the amendment.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: On the amendment, which just gets us to the numbers that we want in the whole bill.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: It's not your amendment, it's their amendment.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: It's their amendment,

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: but they voted it out of committee, but

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: we aren't in possession of the amendment, even though we're in possession of the bill? Pardon me You're for being going to do this on the floor? Okay.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: So we're not doing it here?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: We're not doing the amendment here.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Just doing the bill.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: She's gonna do it on the floor, but we're gonna end up with these numbers.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Does it match?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Yeah, right. So that hasn't changed.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: No, and the program You a

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: on the You can take a straw straw poll on the amendment. The the bill had this number. Yes. The bill was broken down. That's right. That's right.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: It has the same number. No. Right. And so the

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: bill has the right number in it. The detail of this wasn't in the bill. The amendment will explain the detail of the bill. Okay. So we can vote on the bill. And then once the bill, the amendment is presented, we will do a straw poll next week sometime on the

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: rest of it. Okay.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: Oh, okay. I

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: think you

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: can just drop home.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: You do a straw poll now? Yeah. It's straw

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: poll now.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Okay, that would be a lot better, wouldn't it? If you still vote on the bill first? Yes. Let's vote on the bill first. Is there a motion to approve H938 if And that's it. There's not as Is there a second? Second. Thank you. Any further discussion? I think we're good. If the clerk is ready, you may call the

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: roll. Representative Bluemle?

[Rep. Tiffany Bluemle (Ranking Member, House Appropriations)]: Yes.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Representative Dickinson? Nurse. Representative Feltus? Yes. Representative Kascenska? Yes. Representative Roche? Yes. Representative Mrowicki? Yes. Representative Nigro? Yes. Representative Squirrell? Yes. Representative Stevens? Yes. Representative Yacovone? No. And, representative Chittenden? Yes. 1010. Sorry.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Okay. And Tip is the reporter. Let's do a straw poll on, the amendment from, members of, not recently, Human Services Committee. And we can just stick it on the straw poll, I guess.

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: There a, we have to do a motion,

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations)]: I guess?

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Yeah, I can do that.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Let's do a motion to approve the straw, on a straw poll, the amendment of members of Human Services. Is there a motion? Yes, so moved. Thank you. Is there a second?

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: So moved. Thank you. Okay. And when you're ready, federal? Okay. Representative Bluemle? Yes. Representative Dickinson? Yes. Representative Feltus? Yes. Representative Kascenska? Yes. Representative Laroche? Yes. Representative Nikki? Yes. Yes. Representative Representative Supper? Yes. Representative Stevens? Yes. Representative Yacovone? Yes. And representative Chittenden? 124110.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: 124110.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: There we go. Thank you for your time and attention, others.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Thank you so much. I

[Rep. Eileen “Lynn” Dickinson (Member, House Appropriations)]: want to thank the Human Services Committee for coming up with a compromise with the administration. It's, yes, it can be supported.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Share our gratitude and thanks. Thank you. Feels like we've done a lot. So I think we'll chat for the moment maybe with Emily on what we want to do. We've now passed out passed out? Okay, we have passed out five of the seven bills that we're afternoon. We're going to do the HEAL bill and the emergency management bill that Maury has been working on that we took some things out and the other things that are in the budget. So there's one big amendment that's coming. So we'll do those two after lunch. And I'm thinking maybe maybe I don't know what we already have. Emily, should we have Grady come and do the language first, and then we can go back to the bills? Because I know you guys all have work to do and I don't want to hold you up because we're doing bills if there's things that would be helpful to have us do. I don't know if it makes sense to try to do anything.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: I'm not trying to do anything now.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: I'm just saying after lunch, do we have Brady first before we do bills? Yes, sure. Doesn't matter. Okay. So do you think my meeting will be done by 12:45 and we can just have an hour of sort of babbling? Do you have any idea since you know my schedule? Let's assume. Let's go back here at 12:45 and have Grady started on the language, and then we'll do the other bills after that. And then we'll also, we have to see the spreadsheet as well.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair, House Human Services)]: So I'll talk with Emily about the rest of the team stuff, but we'll start with Brady. Mike?

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Can I change topics just for a minute?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: You may.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: And I'd like to put something out to the committee. We put a list together of our spending priorities and what we could do with that $20,000,000 And I've received a few emails that are calling it chair shy's list. And I believe we all worked to put that together. And I hope we can get the word out that this is a collective.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: This is

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: all of our our efforts here. This came from all of us.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: Not one person putting me at the Thank you. I just wanna make sure that as a public statement that we can all agree on that. Is that? Yes.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: Yes. Can we call it the committee list, People who are writing it, committee has more letters than my last name, which is always

[Rep. Trevor Squirrell (Clerk, House Appropriations)]: spelled wrong anyway, so just be funny. Yeah,

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations)]: both, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much for making that up. I appreciate that. It is our budget. I feel good about that. So thank you. All right, let's go up live, have lunch.