Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Good afternoon. This is the House Appropriations Committee. It's Tuesday, 03/17/2026. It's just after 03:15, and we are hearing our last bill for the day. We have another long one, but an important one. So, this is age nine thirty eight, an accolating to establishing the Vermont Homelessness Response Continuum. So we are gonna hear from Katie from Legis Council, from Nolan from Joint Fiscal, and we have Representative McGuire, Representative McGill from Human Services Committee. Rep Wood will be here tomorrow. We're doing this in two parts because we're getting some final information from the Agency of Human Services around the numbers so we can show you what's happening there. I will tell you, spoiler alert, governor has recommended a certain amount of money and this bill recommends a single amount of money. It's just So where it goes and how it goes is a little bit different. But that's where they've been working closely with the agency conservatives as well. Katie, why don't you come join us at the table again?

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Hello again. Nice to see you. You're going to be? I'm sick of hearing my voice. Still Katie McLennan, Office of Legislative Counsel. Let's pull up the draft. I know that you want high level. So let me just start by saying, right now, terms of emergency housing structure, we have general assistance emergency housing, which, as this committee knows very well, is renegotiated every year in the budget and looks slightly different. This takes a different path. This creates in statute on an ongoing basis a program that provides a continuum of services. And it attempts to place a household in the service that best meets their need at a particular time with flexibility to move households through the continuum. So that is what you will see, and I will try to stay high level. The goal

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: is to reduce homelessness. Yes. Okay.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So we have a findings section, legislative intent. And right here, this speaks to some of the goals of the committee that unsheltered homelessness be eliminated and that homelessness in Vermont be rare briefed or non reoccurring, reducing reliance on inefficient use of hotel and motel rooms for emergency housing, utilization of an emergency housing benefit to access hotels and motels through the general assistance program end and be replaced by a continuum of services, like I just described, and that a continuum of supports and services be available to provide a stable pathway to permanent housing that meets the specific needs of the household experiencing homelessness. There is similarly a purpose section, which I might move past for the moment. Section four is where we create a new chapter specific to the Vermont Homelessness Continuum, Title 33 of the Home and Human Services title. First, we have a section of definitions. It's quite lengthy. And a lot of the work about what does it mean to have a disability, who is eligible, what does it mean to be homeless, is addressed in this section. And then in section twenty two zero two, I'm on page nine, if that is helpful. This establishes the continuum of itself. It describes that it creates an array of services to prevent and address homelessness. The program is administered by OEO. In subsection B, the office maintains this continuum. It is flexible, housing focused and designed to prevent homelessness whenever possible. The program shall provide temporary emergency housing to eligible households experiencing homelessness or at imminent risk of homelessness, reduce reliance on hotels and motels for emergency housing assistance, expand the use of alternative housing options in partnership with community organizations, municipalities, private landlords, integrate case management and individualized housing plans into all emergency housing placements, and ensure accountability, transparency and cost efficiency in the use of public funds. 20 two-three is the program components. And this sort of list one through six is how the bill is structured. So after we get past this section, you'll see that there each section sort of addresses one of the items on this list. In subsection b, we have language that the office, meaning OEO, is to address each of the services that are listed in this list one through six by separate line items in the budget. The department shall be responsible for any transfers to other AHS departments necessary to implement the services listed in subsection A, and the Department and other departments within the agency shall maximize federal receipts as applicable for services listed under subsection A. Subsection C says, Upon assessing the household's needs, the office or community partners are to place the household in the appropriate level of care to address the household's specific needs. So as promised, then we begin to go through each of these services. 22.04 is prevention and diversion services. In subsection one, prevention and diversion services shall function as the primary entry point to the continuum. Although connection may be made at any level, the office is to ensure that prevention and diversion services are provided through an agreement with one or more community partners in each region of the state in a manner that accommodates an eligible household's disability. If any Households, upon request for assistance, shall receive brief standardized initial prevention diversion assessment to identify safe alternatives to homelessness and resolve immediate barriers. Funds administered for prevention diversion shall have maximum flexibility. Brings us

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: to page two. 2,205,

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this is where we talk about shelter services. And if you remember, under shelter services, the list was broken into two components: highly structured shelter services and low barrier shelter services. Turning first to highly structured, to the extent funds are appropriated for this purpose, the office has determined the need for highly structured shelter services and developed sufficient highly structured shelter beds to address that need. The Department through the office shall enter into agreements with community partners for the provision of these services for a period of not less than two years at a time. And subdivision 2, highly structured shelters, shall provide programming that emphasizes case management, housing stability, employment, education or treatment services, as well as other services as appropriate in a manner that accommodates the household's disability. Eligible households receiving highly structured shelter services shall participate in case management and other services. The extent of their ability. Language that the Vermont Fire Court has to be followed in the shelter. And if an eligible household needs cannot be met with level one that we looked at for mentioned diversion, then highly structured shelter services is a preferred initial placement, depending on capacity, staffing and geographic accessibility. Top of page 13 is where we change gears, and that's the low barrier shelters. Again, to the extent funds are appropriated for this purpose, the office shall determine the need for the low barrier shelter services and develop sufficient low barrier shelters to address that need. The department, through the office, is to enter into agreements with community partners for the provision of low barrier shelters for a period of not less than two years of time. These shelters are to minimize barriers to entry by reducing rules and programmatic requirements found in the highly structured shelters, while providing case management and other housing support services in a manner that accommodates an eligible household's disability. Stays are time limited and eligible households shall be transitioned to highly structured shelter services or permanent housing as soon as feasible. Again, compliance with the Vermont Fire Safety Code and language that you'll see repeated in each section that where somebody's needs or household's needs can't be addressed in one of the previous levels that they could be addressed in this current level. Page 14, specialized shelter services. Do the extent funds are appropriated? The relevant AHS department shall determine the need for the extent funds permit, that's duplicative, develop specialized shelter services that comply with the fire safety code as well as other applicable standards relevant to the specialty population. And the relevant AHS department shall enter into agreements with community partners for the provision of specialized shelter services for a period of not less than two years. These specialized service shelters are to provide services delivered in a highly structured shelter, as well as additional specialty services. So these are the highly sheltered plus the household has a special service that they need, such as a service for substance use disorder, mental and physical health conditions. Eligible households receiving specialized services are to participate in case management and other services to the extent of the eligible household's ability. And again, this language that if the services can't be met up above, they can be met here. I'm just going to fight for myself that depoputed language right now, because it'll be gone forever if I don't do it.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: I'm not sure how all our brains are working.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Page 15 is 2,207, permanent supportive housing. AHS or any department within the agency is to provide or enter into an agreement for permanent supportive housing that combines long term community based rental assistance with voluntary, flexible supportive services such as family supportive housing and other supportive housing services funded in whole or part by Medicaid if the household and the services are themselves eligible for Medicaid. Eligible households receiving permanent supportive housing shall participate in case management, planning for housing stability and other services to the extent of their ability. And the same language that where a service can't be, where the eligible households' needs cannot be met at another level, they could be met here. Page 16 addresses hotels and motels. We have an intent statement. It's the intent of the General Assembly to decrease reliance on hotel and motel rooms. However, until sufficient permanent affordable housing or shelter services are available, the use of hotel and motel services are permitted. In Subdivision 2, if a hotel or motel is utilized, pursuant to this section, the department shall, and we have a list of the department's responsibilities, shall enter into an agreement with one or more community partners to provide relevant supportive services to eligible households. It shall permit a population specific placement to the extent certain populations are not isolated from the wider community served through the program. It shall propose hotel and motel rates as part of its budget presentation for the General Assembly's consideration. It shall use only hotel and motel rates established by the General Assembly. And it shall enter into agreements for the use of blocks of hotel and motel rooms to negotiate conditions for the use of those blocks, including access to providers of case management and other supportive services with space to provide services negotiated. On top of page 17, it shall ensure services are not provided pursuant to this subsection on a night by night basis. In subsection three, we turn to the responsibilities of the eligible household. So if a hotel or motel is utilized, the household shall participate in case management services, planning for housing stability and other services to the extent of the household's ability. Subsection four says that the hotel and motel operating under this program has to follow the rules, the lodging rules that the health department issues, and also the fire safety and building safety code. Subdivision five. To the extent funds are appropriated for this purpose, this is where we have our room caps. Between April 1 and November 30 of each year, the utilization of hotel and motel rooms pursuant to this section are capped at 700 rooms per night. Between December 1 and March 31 of each year, the utilization of hotel and motel rooms pursuant to this section shall be capped at 1,000 rooms per night. Hotel and motel rooms utilized by individuals served under 33,600 and two shall not be included in the room caps provided in the Subdivision 5. That refers to households impacted by domestic and sexual violence. Last year's effort on addressing emergency housing had that population integrated into the program that was being created. This year, that population is being separately and separate standalone language that is brief, but we'll look at it towards the end of this bill. So this is just saying that if the population of households receiving services due to domestic and sexual violence are using a hotel or hotel, that doesn't count towards these cap numbers. Page 18, same language about first looking at the previous levels of services before receiving services under this section. And then in 2209, there are other emergency housing services that are recognized. And we have that little reader assistance heading at the beginning of each subsection so you can follow along more easily. So A is municipal supports. The department through the office shall provide grants to municipalities in areas of the state with a high volume of unsheltered homelessness, including municipalities underserved by traditional funding sources. The use of this aid is at the discretion of the municipality and includes providing access to basic life sustaining shelter when the National Weather Service declares a cold weather advisory. Shelter provided pursuant to the section shall be time limited, shall not require coordinated entry assessment or case management, and shall have minimal data reporting requirements. E is emergency cold weather shelters. These shelters are managed through an agreement between OEO and one or more community partners to provide overnight low barrier shelter when weather conditions warrant. And there is a definition of emergency cold weather shelters that sets the temperature. The office and community partners shall ensure equitable access to emergency cold weather shelters for communities with a high number of households experiencing unsheltered homelessness. Shelter provided pursuant to the subsection is time limited, shall not require coordinated entry or case management, and shall have minimal data reporting requirements. Last piece of this section is Alternative AHS Housing Solutions. AHS, through its various departments, provides households with other time limited or permanent housing. Such services include recovery housing, various residential supports for individuals with intellectual or developmental disabilities, home care services for older Vermonters and individuals with physical disabilities, transitional housing for individuals exiting correctional custody, and residential options for individuals with mental health challenges. Emergency housing provided through the program is not intended in lieu of access to other AHS time limited housing. I'd

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: like to save questions to the end, if that's okay. 22.1,

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: it's the household responsibilities. So again, within the funds appropriated, the household shall qualify for services under the program if the household is physically present and intends to reside in Vermont, as evidenced by their active participation in a housing, employment or other AHS recognized plan. The household agrees to a coordinated entry assessment that prioritizes the household for permanent housing, unless explicitly exempt under this chapter. And that's referring to the sections we've just been through that says whether or not for a particular service being received, whether case management services or coordinated entry are required. Top of page 20, the household engages with a lead case management entity such as a Department of AHS or a community partner to develop a housing plan and participate in employment, treatment or other activities as appropriate unless explicitly exempt from case management requirements under this section and abides by program rules and refrains for misconduct. The office or community partner shall provide clear written notice to all applicants regarding penalties for fraud at the time of application. The office or community partner shall not impose a penalty upon a household's good faith and material error that was corrected upon notice within a reasonable time. A household that is knowingly providing false, misleading or incomplete information regarding residency, disability, household composition or other eligibility criteria is to be subject to termination within thirty days after receiving notice from the department or community partner. And that pending the outcome of a Human Services Board hearing, the office may refer cases of suspected fraud to the AG or the state's attorney for investigation and prosecution under state law. I'm sorry, my computer tells me it is out of battery. Might there be report?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: Okay. We've

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: got a new thing right here. It says Do

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you have an apple? No, I have a steak. Nolan, may you be able to just email it to you? You can reach this one. Oh, that would be amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Just have one here because this is the first time this has happened.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It's particularly bad right now because I'm not spending a lot of time going back to my desk and plugging in.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Let's see. Page 21.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Subsection The household may be terminated from the program for repeatedly refusing suitable placements following documented suitability assessments and reasonable accommodations. And in D, a member or members of an eligible household may be subject to immediate termination, so not subject to that waiting period, as necessary for the safety of others and if the member or members are engaged in criminal activity or misconduct that's not related to disability or to victimization related to abuse, sexual assault or stalking. So this language is meant when it says a member or members of an eligible household. If there's one member of the household that is causing a disruption, criminal activity or the misconduct, instead of the whole family or household necessarily being immediately terminated, this allows for termination of that one household while the remaining members of the household will continue to receive services. Subsection E is a definition of misconduct. Oh, thank you so much.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: Perfect. Thank you.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: So

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: E is the definition of misconduct used here to mean documented behaviors that materially endanger the safety of others, involve intentional destruction of property or constitute a legal activity. Next is a prioritization section. The office, again meaning OEO, either directly or through its community partners, is to prioritize services within the funds appropriated for this purpose to eligible households who are or at risk of becoming homeless and have a member who is 65 years of age or older, a member who has a disability, has a member who's a minor child, has a member who is pregnant, has a member who is experiencing domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault, stalking, human trafficking, or other dangerous or life threatening conditions, or has a member, likely the whole household, is under court ordered eviction or constructive eviction due to circumstances over which the household had great control. And then subsection B, there's language as to proof how a member's disability is proven and what is used to verify that. So it can be verified by a health care provider, licensed or certified practicing in Vermont, a determination or certification from a state or federally recognized agency or program that provides services to individuals with disabilities, or self attestation by the household itself, subject to verification by the state or community partner within thirty days when other documentation is not reasonably available at the time that the application is submitted. The presence of an eligible household member's disability shall be verified by the office or community partner during the initial application process, and it is to be redetermined annually if the household is still receiving services. But if an eligible household has a member who has a lifelong disability, such as an intellectual or developmental disability, that shall not be required to have that annual redetermination. Top of page 23, the office and community partners are to comply with the ADA Section five zero four of the Rehabilitation Act for the purposes of providing reasonable modifications, effective communication and accessible placements. Program rules and case management requirements shall be reasonably modified, including the use of plain language as necessary to avoid discrimination against eligible households with a member who has a disability. And then twenty to 12, we have our time limits. So you're going to see that same structure I told you that you'd see again, where we're breaking the program down into the different services. They're called levels here. So level one, that was your prevention and diversion. So any temporary housing that is not provided in the form of temporary rental assistance to the program's prevention and diversion services shall not exceed thirty days for a rolling twelve month period. Level two with shelters. The office in collaboration with shelter providers shall establish a maximum length of stay in highly structured and low barrier shelters in rule or in the shelter standards. Level three, again, was specialized shelters. The department, in collaboration with other relevant AHS departments, is to establish the maximum length of stay in specialized shelters in rural or shelter standards. Level four is permanent supportive housing. Those services may be utilized by an eligible household for as long as the eligible household's plan indicates it is necessary. Level five is hotels and motels, and that is broken down by time of the year. So between April 1 and November 30 of each year, eligible households may receive housing at hotels and motels with supportive services for not more than seventy days for a rolling twelve month period. And between December 1 and March 31 of each year, eligible households may receive continual services in cold weather use hotels and motels, but that continual use shall not be applied towards the seventy day time limit for the other portion of the year in subdivision A. Subsection B, the department may grant extensions to the time limits pursuant to criteria adopted in rule, including for a household actively awaiting placement and housing treatment or other services, medical necessity, lack of reasonable alternative, accessible placements for a member of an eligible household with disability, and imminent risk to health and safety or one or more of the eligible household members. Top of page 25, case management services. Each eligible household shall be assigned a lead case manager, except where specifically exempted for certain services, which may be from any AHS department or community partner. Case management is provided. She'll be informed by acuity level, include individualized supports that connect an eligible household to public assistance, health care, employment, permanent housing or other services. A household can request a specific case manager or a change in case manager. Needs assessment, the office and community partners are to provide advice and consultation to the Department of Housing and Community Development on its completion of a needs assessment that identifies gaps in services for households that are in state and includes recommendations to ensure the provision of equitable services throughout the state. And then we get into the notice appeals process and the fair hearing. So the office or community partner is to provide written notice to an applicant or household whose participation in the program is denied, reduced, suspended, terminated. The notice includes the factual and legal basis for the decision, effective date of the action, which in the case of termination, reduction, suspension of services is not to be sooner than thirty days after the date of the written notice, and the household's preferred method of communication. The notice includes a statement of the right to request a fair hearing and clear instructions and plain language on the process and deadlines for filing that appeal. In subsection B, an applicant for or recipient of assistance pursuant to this chapter may file a request for a fair hearing with the Human Services Board when the application for assistance is denied in whole or part, the household's benefits are terminated, reduced or suspended, or the applicant believes that the benefit are not being provided in accordance with the rules or policies. The applicant or household shall file request for a fair hearing with the Human Services Board within sixty days after the date of written notice. And then D, if a household files a request for a fair hearing within fourteen days after receiving notice, the office or community partner providing notice shall continue to provide services under the program without an interruption until there's a decision by the board. Unless the household waives that continuation voluntarily or the household or another household member's continued receipt of services poses a safe notice to others. And F, the board shall issue a written decision in the process for appealing the decision to the Vermont Supreme Court, Subsection If the board issues 20 substantially identical decisions brought by applicants or recipients of the program, the department and community partners shall adopt the board's interpretation as part of its administration of the program, and the department shall revise the program rules accordingly. Then we have rulemaking language, so a requirement to adopt permanent rules that address at a minimum requirements for community partners standards for highly structured, low barrier and specialized shelters documentation requirements for eligibility, including disability required elements for supportive services, including case management creation of a brief standardized initial assessment form that may be completed by hand, electronically or by telephone a process for issuing timely written approval or denial notifications to applicants a process for issuing advanced notice to households when the household is being terminated applicant and household appeal procedures time limits for program participation, including procedures for extensions expectations for the office's oversight and quality monitoring, and any other subjects deemed necessary. Terms of reporting. In subsection A, annually as part of its budget presentation, the department is to provide a status report on each level of the continuum. Minimally, that report shall address the number of households served at each level of the continuum, average length of participation for households at each level, number of households diverted from entering shelters or hotel and motel placements through prevention and diversion, utilization of hotel and motels, including average nightly number of rooms, average and median length of stay, the extent to which hotel and motel usage has decreased relative to the prior fiscal year, housing stability outcomes, including rates of return to homelessness within six and twelve months, an assessment of regional capacity and access to services, including identification of geographic areas with unmet needs or disproportionate utilization of emergency housing. Total expenditures of the continuum level and funding source, including state, federal and other funds and an analysis of cost efficiency across housing models, and any operational barriers to implementation of the continuum, with recommendations for administrative and legislative action. Half of page 30, another annual presentation as part of the Department's budget presentation regarding goals for increased housing capacity, including permanent supportive housing, permanent affordable housing and shelter beds. The department shall provide data pertaining to the increased shelter capacity and the extent to which shelter capacity meets the needs of eligible households. And C, this continues the monthly reports that are currently available. This has them posted on the department's website. Subsection five directs various parties to work with the two continuums of care and US and US HUD to establish a single continuum of care in the state by 10/01/2008. And there, B, asks for a status report on that effort. So I'm on page 31, section six. This is a section that's being added to the chapter we just looked at at a later date. This would be added on 10/01/2028. And it says that any grant or other agreement executed by AHS or its departments shall require a community partner as appropriate to participate in the local housing coalition or other group established to assist eligible households who are homeless, utilize a coordinated entry assessment for households, utilize appropriate planning process and options for an eligible household transitioning to permanent housing, measure performance outcomes, including diversion, success, time to housing and housing retention. The timing there is that the continuum of care merger happens first before this piece is added into the chapter. Page 32. This is important language. So there is a recognition that some portions of this continuum are ready to be implemented in the next fiscal year, and some of the elements are still a work in progress that the administration would be working towards over the course of the fiscal year so that full implementation would not be happening on July. So this language sort of recognizes that although the effective date says 07/01/2026 on this program, that there will be a sort of, I want to say, a slower rollout or a year long process while compliance fully happens. So specifically, that language is recognizing that the department and community partners do not have the capacity to fully implement the continuum, on July '26, the department, through the office and community partners, shall implement the program to the fullest extent of their ability in fiscal year twenty seven while developing the capacity to fully implement the program in fiscal year twenty eight. In section eight, we have rulemaking language. So because there's a 07/01/2026 effective date for portions of the program, A talks about emergency rulemaking so that there are rules in place when this starts to happen. Pending the adoption of permanent rules, the Commissioner of DCF is to adopt and maintain emergency rules, which will be deemed to meet the standard for emergency rulemaking. Emergency rules required by this subsection are to take effect on 07/01/2026, and shall, at a minimum, address the topics required that we went through in twenty two-sixteen. That was the long list of what has to be part of rulemaking. In subsection B, unless extended by LCAR, the Department shall, on or before 10/01/2027, adopt permanent rules regarding the continuum in compliance with twenty two zero six. So this says that there will be ongoing emergency rules until the permanent rule is in place and that both the emergency and permanent rules have to list or have to address the statutory items in twenty two point six. Section nine is a status report on February 15. OEO is to present a progress report to the various policy committees on the implementation of the program, and the office's presentation is to include an initial draft of the department's permanent rules for implementation on the continuum and any recommendations for legislative action. In a separate location from where in statute from where this continuum is being created, there is a section being created specific to households experiencing domestic and sexual violence. And that language is fairly brief, that the Department shall select and enter into an agreement with a statewide organization to provide or cause to be provided supportive services and shelter to those households that are experiencing or have experienced domestic or sexual violence. If the statewide organization cannot fulfill its responsibilities under the section, the department shall work with another entity to ensure there's not a gap in services. Section 11 is a bridge program. This establishes a bridge program within the Vermont State Housing Authority for the purpose of linking households who require rental assistance to permanent housing when the household does not otherwise have access to US HUD rental assistance. The program shall be accessible to eligible clients served by AHS departments. The program is to be available to a household for not more than twenty four months and shall not provide the full amount of the household's rental payment. Program payments shall be made directly from the housing authority to the household's landlord. Top of page 35. Program priorities shall be given to current recipients of the HOME program who have not yet reached twenty four months of rental assistance. The housing authority and relevant departments of AHS shall work jointly to incorporate any existing rental assistance funded by the agency and its department into the program established by the section and establish eligibility criteria and prioritization that may be necessary for this use of funds appropriated in this program. It's the intent that funds appropriated for the SPRID program would be appropriated through fiscal year two thousand and thirty. So this is in session laws, time limited. Payment rate structure. This requires DCF in collaboration with other departments and community partners to establish a payment rate structure, including periodic rate reviews for shelter services. The structure is to include a base rate and potential for supplemental payment to the base if necessary and appropriate. By April 1, the department is to submit a report on this topic to the policy committees regarding the implementation of the payment rate structure and the department's proposed timeline for implementation. This fiscal year thirteen Sorry. This section 13 pertains to fiscal year twenty seven cap room rates. This says that DCF and community partners are not to pay a hotel or motel establishment providing emergency housing more than the hotel's lowest advertised room rate and not more than $80 a day per room to shelter a household participating in the Vermont Homelessness Response Continuum. This is here because if you remember way back 20 pages ago, there was language that this would be part of the budget presentation each year. And since it was not part of the budget presentation as it was not enacted, this is sort of making the decision for this fiscal year. Expenditures. This section does not appropriate any money. The money, as I understand it, will move in the budget. So this just details how money will be spent. So this is $82,600,000 for the provision of services to implement the continuum, shelter development and operation, rental assistance and supportive services, including case management. Any funds that remain unspent at the end of fiscal year twenty seven shall be carried forward for the same purpose for which it was originally appropriated. Subsection Any funds appropriated for general assistance emergency housing or HOF that remain unspent at the end of fiscal year twenty six are to be carried forward for investment in the program in fiscal year twenty seven. Section 15 removes an existing report on GA. Page 38. This section and section eight, which is the deadline for the adoption of permanent rules and interim rulemaking, those pieces take effect on passage to allow a little extra lead time on the emergency rulemaking. Section six is the grant requirements. We already went over how that was an October '28 effective date. Everything else takes effect July '26. So

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: the money, this exact amount of money, is currently appropriated in the budget by the governor. So this is not any new money. Thank you, Katie. How many times have you gone over this?

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Anticipate it'll be So nice and yours in

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: hang tight and Nolan, do you want to say a couple of words? I think you're going be on board tomorrow but if you have anything you want to say today. I'll be quick. I that I was about to

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: call you stady just for fun. For the record, no language at the fiscal office. Thank you very much.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Okay.

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: So I think Katie hit the high point just now. The bill talks about the $2,600,000 of expenditure as being carried in the budget as representative Shai mentioned. It is the exact same amount that the governor is appropriate for these purposes. This chart right here shows the governor's recommendation and where the money falls in terms of budget sections, one time base, DC federal funds, right? So in theory, the next proposal would tie to those funds. For instance, if you're replacing a program that's GC eligible, that should be with another program that's GC eligible. So those are the pieces that are sort of still being worked out, but I think Representative Wood will be prepared or hopefully ready to talk to you tomorrow. We're working with Representative Wood and AHS to sort of fine tune those pieces to get to that place. The other piece, so the fiscal note just sort of has a high level, talks about the 82.6 and then it also talks about two other pieces to flag, and Katie mentioned this. While the bill acknowledges that DCF and community partners do not have the capacity to fully implement the program to the fullest extent on July 1, it directs DCF and community partners to implement the program to the fullest extent of their abilities in fiscal year twenty seven, while they develop the capacity to fully implement the program in '28. So that was worth flagging. And then the final piece, other than the expenditure, is that the bill directs that any funds appropriated for the general assistance emergent housing or the HOP program that remain unspent at the end of fiscal year twenty six be carried forward for investment in this new Vermont homelessness response continuum for fiscal year twenty seven.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Great, and we are gonna hear more tomorrow with the details on the spreadsheet that shows what the governor has proposed and then what he's proposed in here. That's hope that we'll have that. So we also have reps McGill McGuire from House Human Services. Thank you both very much. But did you want to comment, just say a few things? I know that everybody has meetings to get to, but come on up and introduce yourselves and fill in any blanks. Any may ask questions.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: Rep. Jubilee McGow and

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: Representative Eric McGuire, I would say.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: We were hoping to have our chair who's the lead reporter. We're going to kind of all report the bill together, but we're also working on the pre K bill. And so she's up there kind of facilitating that. So we're hitching a bit here. This is our fourth try in my time on the committee to really create an actual system, something that is predictable year to year for participants and our providers. So we don't have this fight, for lack of a better word, each year around the budget, where no one really knows what to expect kind of until the new budget year is before us. So we wanted something that is sustainable long term. And we wanted to ensure that we were really investing in case management as well as prevention. This is where we ended up. Do you want to add any?

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: No, I think you wind it on up. In a nutshell, the bill was mainly designed that we move away from the general assistance emergency housing benefit or de facto to hotel to address our response to homelessness. And what this bill does is establish a very stable, structured, implementable, measurable, that will produce measurable outcomes, and provide individuals the opportunity to experience phenomenal services that are already being provided, and not lead to just remaining stagnant in that type of setting. It's not the hotels are no longer a destination. They're that pathway to stable house. And that's what this entire system is designed to do, is to place people in stable, supportive, independent housing. One of the things that I noticed in here that I liked was that households have responsibilities too. They have

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: to participate in except for the cold overnight, which makes sense. That's a different situation. But the general program, households are responsible for participating in various programs, getting certain services, making a plan to move to housing, because that's what they need to actually move to housing.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: Yeah, we worked really hard on that language. We wanted to make sure that that responsibility was there, but that we were also flexible to each household's needs and abilities and situations. So I think we achieved that. And one thing I also forgot to add was we also wanted to move towards more regional and geographic equity in terms of what's available. We heard about all sorts of amazing things happening around our state, but it's kind of like each area has a specialty, and we weren't seeing that every area had all of these things being offered. So we really wanted to highlight and outline expectations for service providers, for the role of the city and participants, and make sure that that's true everywhere.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Do have a question you wanted

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: to ask? I did. I had two kind of distinctly different ones. On page 18, there was a discussion and specifically I wrote down municipal support, but that's a section where there's several different support sections. And the thing that stood out to me was that none of the municipalities or other organizations that are listed in that section would be required to capture data for the continuums or which is a different take on what some of us are used to anyway, we're expecting that there's data that the whole point is to collect, not the whole point, the whole point is to keep people safe. And then what we would get out of that too is data that would be able to be applied forward and I'm thinking and I'm just curious to know in these circumstances where it's a municipality applying grants or the other organizations that are applying for grants aren't required to do that kind of record keeping. I'm just curious, you're thinking about how does that jive with trying to have as much information as we can on the folks experiencing that homelessness.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: Yeah, the municipalities where we, those are the basic life sustaining kind of emergency supports. And we didn't want to add an additional barrier, like getting folks in coordinated entry. Those are the kind of pop up shelters. And just logistically, being able to do that and stand those up, and then to also then try and figure out how to have enough volunteers to capture data and to do those components correctly, I just think we would have to put a lot more money into those and make them be more regular. Yeah, I Would

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: it be fair to say, so the other point of this is a long time of not using the phrase general assistance, you're not using like breaking away from that program, which is very people are very invested in what it means, which to me has always meant but it's for emergencies, Like that it's hard to budget for emergencies and yet the last few years we've relied on it much more. So this sounds like that's this might be the entry like that emerge the super emergency thing of in the moment of the local stuff, taking a little bit of that on it, like we're here for the emergency purpose and then hopefully they'll find the way up to the next level. Is that

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: Yeah, making those connections, that warm handoff, but these are really those like, it's minus 20 tonight. So our city has some funds, and we're going to open up this space in our town hall for folks to be able to see life sustaining kind of activities. But as part of that, yes, they would be like, Hey, why don't you tomorrow when it's a little warmer, let's make sure you know how to get to your local service provider, and why don't you meet with them, we can set up an appointment. And that's where the kind of long term stability work can happen.

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: So that's happened on the other end of the rainbow, essentially. Filing for hearings. Somebody, if there's a household or a household that's going be affected by the ends of services, evictions because of are there legal representation? We know that people who are experiencing homelessness for the most part are not in a position in the midst of their own chaos, physical, mental health, or just developmentally. Is there an aspect here that goes beyond what already exists in terms of, I mean, it's a lot of work to do all these filings.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: We made some changes to try and make the notices more approachable and understandable to the folks receiving them. But you're correct, we did not put any additional resources into helping folks navigate that process. We did, other than hopefully reducing some of those when the same kind of case keeps getting brought to the Human Services Board, then there's that part at the end. I think it's when there's 20 similar cases, it just kind of becomes the new rule. But no, no additional resources.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Thank you. Wayne, and then Dave. Did

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: you take a look at the costs at all? Because I mean, it looks like we're spending about $35,000 per person. It's a family of three, are we spending that much per person? Or is the cost of housing and taking care of three less than it would be if there were three individuals and three different housing units safe?

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: Where are you getting the 35,000? Right now, we don't really have a great system. Just

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: look at this, it's 26,000. But when you start talking about emergency services, how much is spent on that, and it's for law enforcement, how much it's for various things. It comes up according to my information. Days of estimate, 35,578 to be exact. For what? For the cost per person.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: How many people are you assuming? I don't know what you're Yeah.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: About 4,000.

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: I think I asked him, asking representative whether or not we did kind of like a feasibility fiscal study on the what like the cost for all the way through to serve per person that would be involved in, the program. No, we did not.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: So the other thing, Wayne, I just want to stop you before you go too far down this road. There will be 4,000 people at any one time. The number of people they serve could be 12,000. I know. Could be 16,000. We don't know what the number is.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: Just being cognizant of the magnitude of the overall cost and just keeping in mind that we need to make sure that this is a flow through system and not a housing system in the end.

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: Well, that's a that's kind of the concept behind this because we de facto to the general assistant housing benefit for the last several years. And the general assistant emergency housing benefit is nothing more than a stopgap. And to de facto to that, and using that model to address homelessness has been extreme, much more costly than what this is going to produce. So this program alone is going to reduce unilateral and collateral costs over time, and reduce the current expenditures that we're already putting into a a the system at this time, the status quo at this time.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: As you know, I was I've been calling for this kind of thing. You know, I applaud the effort that this is good. I'm gonna support it. Right? I just wanna make sure everybody's times and it's costing us a lot of money still.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: There's no new money in here from what the governor just put in the margin.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: I was really looking at the tiers, the amounts of time, and it is really designed to move folks into where they need to be, and then moving them on, with the exception of permanent supportive housing and the understanding that those people in that program often need long term support. But the rest are really to help folks get stable, figure out where the best place is

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: for

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: them, create their housing plan, and then work on achieving that and moving on.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Other questions? Dave, you had a question. How long will it take to

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: build or develop the number of shelter beds you think are going to be needed?

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: I don't think we know how many are gonna be needed, and that's part of the needs assessment and part of that planning work, a concept we talked a lot also about in our committee, is when we're creating shelters and making sure they're convertible shelters is something we've talked about, is this understanding that we hope we don't need this amount of shelters long term. And so creating kind of shelter models that, once we hopefully reduce our homelessness numbers in the state of Vermont and the number of people seeking shelter, that we can then use those physical spaces to address our lack of affordable housing or lack of housing for folks with developmental disabilities, for example. So really kind of encouraging our state agencies and the folks who work with them to be creative in our solutions.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: Just a follow-up, how much of the money, the 80 some odd million, is one time and how much is based?

[Nolan Langweil (Joint Fiscal Office)]: It's all cheap.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: Yeah, I did see it there.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: And rep Wood will be in tomorrow to do deep dive, I believe, right?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Yeah, I think that's able to answer questions till we have there's a spreadsheet that we're gonna have for tomorrow, Dave, that will have more detail.

[Rep. David Yacovone (Member, House Appropriations Committee)]: Only thing I'm trying to make is it looks like a lot of the money is one time, and thereby, at the end of the first year, is there enough to keep things going the way they're gonna need to be going?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: Yeah, so every year the governor has put in money in one time. The last, every year I've been on this committee, there's been money in one time for this. It's 20, and on this, as I'm reading it correctly, 21,000,000 of the $82,000,000 is in one time. So it's about a quarter of it. Thank you.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: I think over time, just my recollection over time, as we have been moving more of it into base, into those shelter operations and ensuring and doing less on the one time. I mean, a lot

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: of the one times were referred to emergency and hoteling as opposed to a program. Yeah. I certainly like the direction, which is why I voted for age 91.

[Rep. Eric McGuire (House Human Services Committee)]: And look at this too in regards to, like, the fiscal and how the money is being delegated around. It's a continuum of services. So the investments are being made into preventing people, people and families going homeless, all the way to retention services, which are helping to keep individuals and families within their stable housing. So we have a very strong continuum of services aligned in which we can implement and place people into the best available setting that would that that's gonna, you know, place them in the best position to continue their progress. Appreciate that. Okay.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: This was a loud presentation. You guys have done amazing work. Know you've been working on session on this. It started with Chair Wood and Rep. McGuire and has morphed into a program that really pretty level and deliberate and comprehensive and keeps us within the budget. So we're grateful for all of that. Thank you. Think we're going to get Chair Wood in here late tomorrow afternoon. We've got some other things going on, so we'll have opportunity from that. So thank you both very much. And so committee, thus endeth our day of nothing but bills. Autumn tells me we have 19 bills that we need to act on. The end the week. Oh yeah, but that's okay. We've heard a lot of them. And so we'll go, we'll have, we'll set aside some time to just rip through and go through a whole bunch of bills. We still have a few more to hear. We got eight more today. We've heard some of the eight that we already got today. I don't know if we're getting any more after today. Yeah, we're that one tomorrow. So we will have heard everything pretty soon. I'll go over this window, so we can make sure we don't see anything. So we will probably still be voting some bills on Friday, but that's okay. That's when we're going to be doing a lot of putting up and waiting so we can vote out bills when we have those times as well. We will get it all done. Sleep while you can. We're going to start tomorrow at 08:45 with the bill that we postponed from today. That was with the ADA coordinator. That'll be at 08:45. And then at 09:15, Repluone is going to be back to talk about the judiciary part of the landlord tenant bill that we heard last week, because he's been having meetings with the folks in the judiciary branch itself. 08:45,

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (House Human Services Committee)]: I'm sorry. At 09:15,

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair, House Appropriations Committee)]: we're doing what? Martin's coming in to talk about the No, he did today. He did it fixed today. The judiciary has this big section of the landlord tenant bill, age seven seventy two, which we sort of heard, but we didn't pay much attention to that because he was going to come back and talk to that part. So we do have some big bills to pass out before, by the end of Friday. Tomorrow afternoon also, I hope to have, like I did last year on Wednesday before the budget was due, a draft budget to assure you guys. I don't know what it looks like yet. I haven't done anything with it, but I'm working with Joe for fiscal tomorrow, and we'll have that. And as I said to you last year, I'll say to you again this year, this is putting something on the table for us to talk about. It's not my bill. It's gonna be coming on bill. So, nothing on that. Okay, let's go apply. Thank you. Good work today, everybody.