Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Good morning. This is the House Appropriations Committee. It is Friday, 02/13/2026. It's just after 11:20AM. We're continuing our FY 'twenty seven budget with ANR. And right now, have the Department of Fish and Wildlife. So welcome, and if you want to introduce yourself and take it away, thanks.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Thank you, Madam Chair. My name is Jason Batchelder. I'm newest fish and wildlife commissioner. Took over around July 28, most recently, the EC commissioner. And before that, I was retired, stay at home dad, pour that out to the director of the warden service. So I've been around A and R for for quite a while. Haven't gotten, quite this detailed look at the budget in in those twenty plus years, but I'm happy to be here today. I'm I'm also joined by our chief of operations, Andrea Shortzle, who we met last year and and commissioner. I'm so lucky, to be following in her footsteps and helped her a lot. And also by our our business manager, Elizabeth Strattenden. I I may look their direction, for a couple if you get into some granular questions that I can answer, please maybe expect that. I I certainly like to do it.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: I love

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: to phone a friend.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Thank you. Again, thank you for having me. I I put a little bit of a lead in sort of to set set the stage of where we feel we're at and why we're here. I'm very, very proud and fortunate commissioner of Fish and Wildlife. I'd like to acknowledge that as we examine this specific governor's recommended budget that Vermont is experiencing a time of mildly declining license sales. It's a national trend and we're not exempt. But at the same time, we feel that our participation couldn't be better. Very, very strong participation in our hunting, fishing, trapping communities. I wanted to point that out. The heritage and culture behind hunting and fishing has been strong collective memory. But within that statement lives some complications. As you know, our demographic is aging and some of our most hearty participants are aging along with that demographic and hitting hitting a clip where they're no longer paying into our into our systems. When a person reaches 66, they get a they pay a one time fee and they have a lifetime license.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Remember when we did that.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: You may know some folks that have these licenses. And yes, wonderful opportunity, but has caused us to hit a wall with some funding opportunities. Large participation, but a funding hand. Additionally, our new hunters and anglers are entering their years without having to purchase a license also because if you can believe it, almost twenty percent of our newborns in Vermont are gifted a lifetime license when within the first year of their life.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: That's an option that we have.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: It is an option that we have and a wonderful one I would add. My kids all have lifetime licenses. They won't have to buy a license. And there are some exceptions. If they want a speckled tag, they need to buy a tag. If they want an antlerless permit, they would need to pay the $10. They would simply just wanna go dunk a worm. They they they won't need a license for the rest of their lives to do that. Hunting ends a little bit sooner excuse me, begins a little bit sooner. Some kids hunt younger in Vermont, and they would need a license as soon as they hunted. And that license is very inexpensive for a youth anyway. So there's some challenges there. As you can see, participation. We're lauding our participation, but our our ability to carry ourselves in a way that's more self funded is challenged by those situations. Let's see here. All the while, I would add that more and more Vermonters are taking advantage of our services as a department. Our lands, our infrastructure, and the expertise of our biologists is being utilized at a rate that I don't know that we've ever seen. Simply folks want to be involved with Fish and Wildlife, and we're so proud and excited about that. They value our staff for their time and effort, and it simply leads to capacity issues around the work that we're charged with. I used to say jokingly, of course, that people who are gonna move to Vermont aren't doing it for big bucks and giant trout. They're doing it for burning smittens. But I now see and I love that. That's why I live here. But I now see that it may not be for a reason that that might cause them to buy a license that we provide, but to be outdoors, demands relevancy from the department. And and that that's that's my little stage setting I wanted to wanted to mention. We're certainly proud of everything that our department does, but it expensive as is everything post COVID and probably anyway. So I'm on my first slide here. So this is our recommended budget. Our overview here is our got six bullets here that I'd like to touch on. So our mission, our department structure, our prior fiscal year appropriation update, our overview, our proposed budget language, our division budgets individually, and then some reports on some other information. So our mission is the conservation of fish wildlife and plants and their habitats for the people of Vermont. People like to think of us as the, sort of the hunting and and fishing department, but, we don't we don't look at ourselves that way. We you can head to the next slide, please. We look at ourselves as individual biologists, wardens, technical staff that focus on natural communities, habitat, the creepy crawlies like invertebrates and and centipedes. Right? And and all the way up through our charismatic, species like like bears, bobcats. I think that's how if you ask staff, we we would look at ourselves sort of from the outside. Next slide is who we serve. We certainly serve the the hook and bullet crowd as people like to say. But more increasingly, landowners are coming to us for for their expertise. Wildlife watchers are are an extraordinary part of our lives now. We manage habitat for birds, all kinds of wildlife for people to see and enjoy that don't necessarily have to take it home and put it in the freezer. And while respecting our heritage and our hunters and trappers and anglers who do still put a lot of wild protein in their freezers. You can jump to the next one. Our organizational structure, of our four forty four permanent employees looks like this. So we have, my office, is three people. That's Andrea, myself, and Abigail, my assistant. And then our five divisions. And you can see those there. Administration, wildlife, fish, board and service outreach. Jumping to our prior fiscal year updates, as you can see, we've got a little bit of an outline. There's some there's a couple of trends there that you can see through the one time appropriations for the LCI. Are some one time appropriations around some non dedicated special funds to sustain our current operations, and our restructuring, which I will, our restructuring study, which I will touch on. Some of you may have heard about, very exciting. One time cash funds for the Wally Association and then a position of fund for a specialist position which has been officially hired. We're very lucky. That person's gonna be working on act one eighty one, some support around act two fifty and section two forty eight work. Exciting stuff.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So I wanna pause for a moment about the fishing derby. Okay. Because we've had discussions in this committee the last couple of years about the $30,000 and whatever. How do you define success there? How do you know whether it's worth us putting $30,000 into it?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: It's a wonderful question. My personal opinion, and I don't know if I've been asked this specifically, Madam Chair, my personal opinion is it's an alignment with an organization that brings joy and opportunity to many, many people. That's how I look at it as success. It's a perpetual event that the department can align themselves with. Bless you. And I I feel like that the ability to align ourselves with them is worth it. People see us as a partner. People see us as a for an opportunity that provides some of the fish that are that are caught in these derbies. And in a roundabout way, license sales probably are affected. That's how

[Rep. John Kascenska]: I look at at this effort.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So do we have do you keep track of, or do you work with travel and tourism on this at all? Do you keep track of how many people participate every year? How many are from in state, out of state? Do we have any numbers around those kinds of things?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Those numbers exist, specifically the participants and the license holders that would be associated with that participation. As far as working with travel and tourism, I don't know. I would look over here, but I'm seeing no. But I can write that down and get back to you on it. I certainly would imagine that if we cease that we might hear from those folks, but I don't know.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: It seems to me that this is a place where travel and tourism and your group can collaborate because we're giving 30,000 to an event. We don't give money to all events that happen in the state of Vermont. So wonder why we get this one and not other ones, and can we leverage it even more? Yeah, Lynn.

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: Yeah, there's also rods and gun type of events as well. People come in from out of state to do like tarp practice and raise money for these local rod and gun clubs or outdoor clubs. And they can bring a lot of people and a lot of money. It's the same question as to the fishing derby. Do you coordinate with the local people who do this and track how many people come in here? Because when they are here, they go to the competition or whatever, they get awards, whatever. They aren't really killing anything or getting food or getting But there's two kinds of gun use. One of course is hunting and the other is this target store type of competition thing. They come in and they get hotel rooms, they spend a lot of money to go out to dinner, they stay here, things like that. And I might have the same with snowmobile clubs and things like that that do. Is this something that you have looked at because it is a potential source of revenue?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Sure. As you may know, we benefit greatly from shooting sports. You may know this through the Pittman Robertson Fund excise taxes on guns and ammo. So we realize that we benefit directly from these activities. I I don't think we reach out to them directly, in in an encouraging way to be here, but neither do we discourage them. I participate in in events annually that that are strictly shooting leading up to hunting seasons, and the department sponsors those. We certainly pay into, public shooting ranges. We own shooting ranges ourselves. So I feel like we're a welcoming agency, to shooting sports. But I but I I completely hear your point. Capturing the the demographic and reaching out to them in meaningful way may be something that we could explore, I don't know.

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: Yeah, it's a value added piece. Absolutely. It's not just what you provide, but it creates potential for putting more people in to do these things. There was some, I think up in the Northeast Kingdom, had three fifty participants And paying a

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: buying ammunition and exercise that's going down.

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: Staying in a hotel, going out to dinner, spending money at other things. It's really, it would be a travel tourism type of piece.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: So we do work with the National Shooting Sports Foundation quite a bit, and I'm wondering if they have this data in a Vermont specific way. If you if you said this around, you know, how many how many folks are are hunting ruffed grouse in the Northeast Kingdom, annually, I I feel that that that demographic could be captured by us. Maybe not that that minutiae, but but I feel that there is an entity that could capture this for you. If you're interested, I'll I can with the chair's question, I can respond to that after the meeting or or perhaps next week, see if I can get you an answer if we can capture that. Absolutely.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Great. Wayne? I'll just comment. The Derby is very large, and I know that you can get the numbers from there. And of course, Dingle Johnson, it's the money that comes from excise taxes on fishing, hunting equipment, boats, all that. Tremendous boats. We know the cost of boats these days.

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: So

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: all boats, if you buy a lure like this for one fishing lure, what it's cost should be about $67 for just a lure. So the amount of money spent is significant.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: It would be nice to have some of those metrics so that we help you see. Because some people will come with it, some people may buy stuff, but then are people actually staying in camp? Are they camping? Are they staying in hotels?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Of course, all the gas. You know, there's that bull. Nothing down the lake with gas. The gas tax. You don't want to go there.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Know. There's trade offs for everything. Anyway, getting more information about that I think would be really helpful.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: I'd be happy to do it.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yeah, and I think travel and tourism ought to be working with you on this. Does it make sense?

[Rep. John Kascenska]: Sure.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Okay.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: So our next slide is our budget overview by program. You can see that breakdown there. Fisheries, warden service, wildlife, outreach and education, administration, event lands acquisition. Any questions on on this slide? I I understood you had some questions for the secretary around land acquisition, but I'm I'm happy to to shift over it.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: And you talk about outreach and education. What are some of the things that you do there?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Yeah, great question. So that is the division that's in charge of all our social media platforms, Honor Education, as well as our conservation camps, which went live today. If you have any young folks between 12 and 14 that haven't been to camp, the sign up is live. The tuition increased this year by $50, which is still likely the best deal in the country, I would imagine, unless it's free. But these camps are renowned for their ability to reach kids and get them into the outdoors. Ali Thomas is our is our director of the outreach division, does does an amazing job. She's a biologist by trade. But makes makes makes camps a very special place. My son attended for the first time last year. It's where I got my start as a professional Allied employee and a camper. We we can't say enough good things about that, but that that's what they're known for. They're known for the camps. And likely everyone has heard about them. Very, very grateful that we're able to continue that education.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Wayne still doing the teacher education?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: We are. Yep, we are. We have a teacher's course first week of July, maybe July, where certified teachers from anywhere can come and receive continuing education, with credit, master's level, where where Ali teaches, in a in a conservation setting, outdoor education, which they can further their their curriculum with. It's really extraordinary. And all corners of the of the department participate in it from the from the warden service to the biological staff and commissioner's office. And they're out scooping scooping bogs and and pulling bugs out of out of swamps and doing all kinds of fun things along the way. They have they have a great week. It's very valuable. Thanks for pointing that out. So some of our proposed budget language includes the Fish and Wildlife Area License, which some of you have heard about, as well as an effort that's now underway in House Natural to reconcile some of the board regulation changes with our licensing schedule. I'd love to take a minute and touch on the area license because it's been a bit of a hot button for folks. You may have heard of this.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yes.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Yes. So I apologize. Know we don't have a ton of time.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: That's all right. This is the one I wanted to hear about.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: This this is important. So, I I think first and foremost, the the commissioner of the day, so, this falls to me, may may set rules, to to create fees around, uses of our lands. So, if you back up, call it fifty, one hundred years, hunters, anglers, motorboat registration purchasers have been acquiring our lands for us, fishing access areas specifically. We're focused on fishing access areas right now. They've been purchasing these lands for us. And paddlers and bird watchers, essentially, where this would apply have have have have been have been getting a free pass for for no other easy way to say it. And we we've been thankful for that. We we have been catering to all users for a long time. But in my intro, you heard me say that capacity has become an issue. We have the ability to set these fees, would which would exempt many folks, including people who already have a license given by the department or or or paid for that we provide as a department, and simply asking, paddlers and wildlife watchers and other lawful users of the of the access areas to pay a license purchase a license to use those areas.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Would that be a day pass or that's We

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: would have an option for a day pass. We would have an option for an annual license. Part of this technical corrections bill that we introduced in House Natural Wednesday, is asking for a three sixty five day ability. Currently, we're on a calendar year license purchase schedule. But this would allow us to to You could purchase your license today and it would be good until this end of Something next we're excited about and something that we see that reduces churn with folks who every other year may not buy a license. But some of the questions folks have are around enforcement and how much money we would make. You can see the number there at the bottom is looking at the first year, which we're looking at a rollout around Memorial Day of twenty twenty seven for the voting season, up to four years from then in 2029, upwards of 290,000, which which, we've been told is a is a conservative amount. At the same time, we we we feel that there could be some wiggle room in there.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So who would start having to pay? I got paddlers. Paddlers. For renewing kayaks. Who else? Bird watchers. People just walking around in the

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Well, would still have to be an authorized use of the access area. So right now, dog walkers are not allowed. You couldn't pull into an access area and walk your dog. Although, I I I say this in in in all, neighborly seriousness. We wardens are not out there patrolling and kicking people out on a daily basis for a lot of things. Right? This all this all is based on reasonableness and and availability. If there's a a if there are 20 cars there trying to fish and someone pulls in and wants to wants to walk 10 dogs, that that's a conflict, a conflict and an unallowed use. Yeah. Okay. So it's not allowed

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: in good areas, but I know some on the Otter Creek, and there's sort of room for a car or truck to back its boat in, and then they have to go park somewhere else. So, if I'm a birdwatcher and I just want to pull in my car and see if that was a snow, whatever, snow goose or a hawk, and I'm there for five minutes, I'm supposed to pay now?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Well, technically yes. Worst case scenario, run it right to the end, yes. But in these worst case scenarios, we also build in, if someone wanted to run their child down there to pee, that's not a lawful use either, but we wouldn't say anything. So the intended use for this is to take a group of bird watchers more appropriately to a place like South Bay Wildlife Management Area, where there are rare birds. They want to use our access area to launch, to go out and watch birds for the day, this would be a license that we would like to require for you.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: But they're launching in a boat?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Would be launching in a if they were launching in a motorboat, they'd be exempt. If they were launching in a canoe, they would not need to pay. Motorboats are exempt. Because they pay

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: They already have paid something. That's right.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Okay. Okay.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: And if you had a fishing license, you'd

[Rep. John Kascenska]: be exempt also, a hunting license.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Okay. Mike and then John.

[Rep. John Kascenska]: Thanks for coming.

[Rep. Michael Mrowicki]: I'm a paddler and I fish too, I'm okay with this. We used to put in the Putney and Dumberston pretty regularly. Several years ago we quite a situation down there. Enforcement was including, I was contacted by a family who was visiting from England, came to Vermont for a remembrance, Having a picnic at the Putney in Brooklyn, we're told they had to leave immediately. Like constituents who set up easels to paint the river, we're they had to leave. So going back to when and this is just the start of what was happening. So this is when David Dean was chair. So we had quite a process and from what I remember Michael O'Grady was saying that these people did have the right to be there as secondary users. That because these areas were no longer solely funded by state dollars, that there was federal regulations that were impacting the situation that provided access for the secondary youth. Are you saying that's changed?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Well, think more appropriately it was never the case. So these federal funds are tied directly to our control of these access areas. So we have to have ultimate control over these access areas with rules that we provide that are that are cross referenced with checks and balances through the federal system. And if the federal system says we can we can allow these uses, then they're okay. We have we have a friendly disagreement with mister O'Grady, a a respectful one. I I think that he he is running down some ideas now that may pan out and may not. But these are paid for by some state dollars through the grace of the US Fish and Wildlife Service match funds and are tied to direct uses that must be approved and must not relate to all of the state Fish and Wildlife agency. So what I see in those instances, and I lived through that, I was the chief warden when David Dean was there and and talked through that that situation, which was which was unfortunate. At the time, I I what my answer would be now is if if they had had a line in the water, that they they would have been 100% legal. There's nothing that says you can't paint a picture while you're fishing or have lunch while you're while you're fishing. But the slippery slope of having that being viewed as a as a swimming area or a place to picnic could lead and and some people think this is a frivolous argument, and and I completely get all sides of this. But looking at me saying this is not an allowed use and then having our regional director from the Fish and Wildlife Service come down and say, are you really allowing people to picnic here? We need to have conversation. That's a real challenge to our loss of control. So there are situations that I feel are unfortunate and we want people to come to Vermont. We want people to enjoy our lands. And at that time that was a bummer of a situation for me to have to be called on the carpet on. Get it, some enforcement is unsavory. But it was there for a reason and I remember that well. But and if someone bought an access license now, that activity would still have to fall within something that that we feel was not a loss of control. And those are the two examples I can give you now. So bird watching, some manner of wildlife based recreation and paddling. So also an approved use, but not hay. And so to also further this conversation, if you were to access the lake or the pond from another area, it's still free. You have a camp there, you can paddle out. We're not coming out. This isn't a water pass. This is a pass to use lands that were brought to us by a certain user group and a fee paying group that that is being exhausted at the moment. And so we're looking for other ways to fund that. So I I completely understand, and I appreciate fishing license, and that is another way to be exempted from this proposed mandate. So

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: John, and then I have a question.

[Rep. Michael Mrowicki]: Go ahead. I have

[Rep. John Kascenska]: two questions, actually. So this is being classified as a license here. And when you look at other places where these kinds of things are happening here, I mean, my familiarity is primarily the National Forest lands here, being a long time user of White Mountains National Forest. And I know when they created that parking pass thing, could have access. It was a fee generation idea here. It's very successful. Took a little time for it to kind of take hold here because people know what they know.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: They don't know what they

[Rep. John Kascenska]: don't know. They want to go and go for short hikes at place and they had to have something to kind of park there. So one thing is about license versus an access pass, is, you know, we're rich that way, versus a fishing license or a hunting license or those kinds of And I also remember here too, when people were getting used to having to purchase that thing, which is pretty inexpensive. Was like $30 a year for an individual currently here. It's $40 for a household. If you're shy, has a car, and of your family has a car, you just don't have access to your vehicles that you use. It doesn't matter which one you use. You're going up to several things. So it's about the license versus pass thing right here. Enforcement of that, National Forest Service, they have a law enforcement division obviously here, but a lot of the rangers would stop by and they wouldn't see a sticker on your windshield kind of thing. And they'll leave you a reminder, hey, just so you know, right? And they would take your information. They're not there to find anybody here and that worked pretty well. Just says reminder of these. Sure. So you start thinking about the operation of things, should it go through, You know, a few things, I'm happy to chat with you about that if you're interested. But so pass versus license, what are other states doing as they're thinking about the same types of things you are when there's fewer people hunting or fishing?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Sure, we modeled this after approximately 14 states, I believe, that we studied, including some nearby states, I think most acutely Delaware, Virginia and Montana who had some ups and downs with this. Additionally, I'm committed to a very soft rollout of this within the ward of service. Having come from an enforcement background, I I understand now having been retired and not in law enforcement for twenty years. I would just like to have a law enforcement encounter over something like this. Right? Something that people have been getting for for free forever, and for most of you, it's forever. Wanna go paddling? You have the access. Committed to a very soft rollout and having this be a passive QR code type opt in for people, not an opt in, it's a bad choice of words. But have a QR code at our kiosks where this now says this a fee area. Please, if you're gonna use for these reasons, which are approved, scan your phone, you've got it on your device in perpetuity for that year, you're good to go. And then if you were to encounter a warden and you weren't fishing, the warden might check your life jacket, ask for your aerial license. If you didn't have one, we'd much rather sell you a license than than write you a ticket for this. You know, the ticket money goes to the general fund. Then but this would this would be would be, if I'm not mistaken, this could be matched. This it's a license to to your question, because it's a license, it can be matched federally and bring money back to us and tripling it perhaps. So I have two questions. You

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: talk about $50,000 in FY27. Have you assumed that revenue in your budget projections? Yes, we have. And so that's my first question. That's all I needed, was a yes or no 105. So my second question is, the governor has been very clear for ten years, no new taxes, no new fees, he has not done a fee bill, this is a fee. How does that jive with what his stated anti fee approach to government? I mean, how does this work? How can you do this?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Sure. It's a wonderful question. I think I've been consistent in my answer. This is a moment in time where I think the governor recognizes the pressures that the department feels. And, looking at this as as a license and a and a place where this is a a fee based, opportunity for for, let's say, a 110,000 Vermonters who have been paying in, asking, some of the ones who've been getting it for free to pay now. That is a moment in time that we feel like it is not worth passing on.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Okay, so one could argue the same thing about a whole lot of other fees that are not being allowed to go forward for the last ten years. And maybe this may not be a question for you, but I just want to go on record saying, why now and why this one and why not all the other ones?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: I appreciate that very much. This is my charge and how respond to it. I expected that question. I appreciate it very much. And I can easily see the disparity in my feeble So

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: you get through, but the other ones don't?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Yeah, and having a four year runway on this before we get to the amount that we want is also worth examining. If we get to $20 for this, $0.07 a day if you bought it on January 1, it's not an owner's ask

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: of It's the principle of what, that's what I'm talking about. I'm sort of stating this and it's maybe somewhat rhetorical for you, but I just sort of wondered if you had, how you got special dispensation to have this happen where other people have not been able to have The that

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Deputy Secretary has an interjection.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Do you like to Yes.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Ensure users have been.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Yes, okay, so that's the logic that's being used.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: If I can bring up one more point, thank you, Deputy Secretary.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: The BHC folks are exiting and just went out to ask them to. There's 10 sides out there saying be quiet, but they all stand around and talk.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Inadvertently, I wouldn't say I aimed this correctly by skill, but this is an opt in. If folks want to go and use their camp access, they don't to go through our fishing access areas.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Right, some people don't have a choice. Some don't have

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: a choice and that's a very a point worth mentioning. This is, if you don't want to use our lands and our access areas and our kiosks, that's okay. But if you do, we're asking this.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: And so this has to go through a bill. Right? It has to pass through the House and the Senate.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: It's not. It does have to go through ICAR. This this falls under commissioner of the day's purview. So I I can I can set this myself?

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So I'm looking at February. That's different than LCAR? No, LARS Agency parking. They review that it comes to. It will come to LCAR.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: It will go through both. Okay. So it will go through both. So yes and no.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Okay. But not a separate bill. Just trying to figure this out.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Sure. Thank

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: you Of course, letting me grow your

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: yeah, I appreciate it very much. I'm glad you didn't tiptoe around.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: I do have a question. However, if you have included $50,000 in your budget assumption in terms of our revenue, what will you do if this does not get approved?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Yeah, it's a great question. I think later on you'll see we do have a special fund to fall back on. We would make adjustments on the fly as we have done. But it's a great question. I was encouraged to hear that these are conservative amounts and amounts we expect to see through a 2018 study that we did. But it's a fair question. We would have to do some adjustments.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Adjustments in your budget. We can move

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: on to slide whatever. Sure. Think our next slide is important. So this is our administration division sort of a budget information overview. For some reason, my graphic isn't coming up on my screen, but I can see it here.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: You can see it there? Sure.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: So there's our breakdown of our funding and then how it's spent on right hand side. You'll see that there was some one time funding from our Fish Wildlife Fund balance for our new point of sale system, which is sort of our license system and what would be used for this license. And then, an increase in internal service funds, and then you can see at the bottom there the the large ADS fee increase. This is their new

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: the way they're doing it? Yes.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Fisheries division, this is our fish culture section. So fisheries is broken down into three sections. This is our fish culture section, which is responsible for a large portion of our general fund. You can see the money on the left and how it's spent on the right, largely a very lean operation. But as you can see, when we were hit with this ADS increase, that middle bullet there was forced us into a proposed RIF, undesirable, but we felt necessary. And

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So the change in ADS ADS billing forcing you to risk a person?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: This was the last straw. This was the last straw. We had level funded. We had made many, many adjustments, including completely cutting our truck and equipment budget and felt we had no other options at the zero hour. As you know, this happened very close to the holidays and right at the zero hour. So this was an undesirable but a direction that we felt we had to go. And it is granted it is our largest budget within the department. The governor did not want to go in the direction of the warden service, is our next largest budget. They'd already been incurring some serious vacancies. We went with a fish culture specialist position at Ed Wheat Hatchery.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Salisbury Fish Hatchery is still open. Still working on it's come up at least twice since I've been in this committee.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: The path is bright for Salvary. Feel I think that is settled.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Because I know the problem was about the Otter Creek and the inability, you know, the stuff getting into the Otter Creek and not picking it whatever. So you're figuring out ways to fix that. So it's not going to come back next year?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: It

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: should not come back through our wonderful partners at BEC. Feel like we have figured this

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: out. Okay, thank you.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: It's sort of this is a combined in in the sentiment around around this this rip. There there's a piece of this that the show the show must go on. If you look at that operating budget for for fish culture, I think it's it's remarkable that the the pounds of fish that we're able to meet are just extraordinary on that small of a budget. The amount of fish we have to feed, the amount of energy we have to produce, both for electricity and trucking and circulation. It truly boggles the national mind when we are examined and looked at our fish culture and how lean and extraordinarily efficient we are. We are currently experiencing it right now. We're being examined as you'll see in a subsequent slide if we have time. I I know I'm standing between you and lunch, so maybe I'll skip right to that one. But we are we are simply the the the North Star for fish culture in in the country. So I'll I'm gonna actually skip to that slide if I can. You want to just flip through and I'll tell you when to stop. Can touch on the warden service briefly. Oh, there we go. Thank you. My slides are not updating for some reason. My computer doesn't like the internet in here. So we are undergoing a couple of studies. So first and most importantly is benchmarking study, which the Wildlife Management Institute and BJ Case consulting firms are using to compare us to similar states around the country. Most recently, think we've gotten to our requisite amount of states with New Hampshire, so we're going to look at them and study them and do comparisons. This study was was slated to end in March, so coming right up. We may we may push that to April with the addition of of New Hampshire who wanted to help and and be helped at the same time. So we're we're excited for that. And then a fish culture modernization project, which is being handled through a company out of Boise, McMillan Associates. They've visited all of our hatcheries and simply their jaws hit the floor, frankly, and said how efficient we are. We with are solar installations at many of them. Simply our budget is almost identical to what it was twenty years ago in operations and overhead. But we are looking even more closely at how we can become leaner, more efficient, cleaner. And so these studies are very important to us and we're excited to be able to tell you and tell the governor about the results. Can't see that last one. I'm just gonna bend my head around. Okay. Thank you. And so, yeah, those next two bullets we've we've talked about. So our revenue generating strategies.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: You want to briefly talk to us about wildlife? Anything

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: you

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: want to

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: highlight there?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Yeah. There we go. So our wildlife division, you can see the expenses there. They're largely federally funded through Pittman Robertson and some fish and wildlife fund, very small amount of general fund. You can see where their go, or excuse me, where their money goes to salary and benefits. These are folks who are doing land and habitat management. So they're they're paid for their expertise with very little overhead and equipment costs. As I mentioned, our ACT 181 position is now hired and very fortunate to have that employee coming on to help some of

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: the capacity there. You do tick research?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Certainly do.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: That will be here? That will

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: be here, yes. Tick research on moose.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: And just seems like ticks are

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: we've got our fingers crossed for this winter, right? We've got what we feel is a winter. I think our deer biologists may temper our expectations and say this is a normal winter, but we all feel like it's cold and snowy. So maybe we'll see what the ticks are.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: I'm even more tired

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: of that. I hate to say that. If it hurts the ticks, I'm all for it.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Me too.

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: Go ahead. We're talking about partnering with other agencies. What do you do with the Department of Health or public health with the tick situation?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: That's a great question and I simply do not know. Do not know what we do with helping ticks. We have an in house tick expert who is one of our wardens who's a peer reviewed studier of black legged ticks and wood ticks. But there may be crossover that I'm not aware of with health, but I don't know.

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: It's a health issue, contagious disease that's really a major issue over the past ten, twenty years.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: And our focus, as you know, has been on winter ticks with moose and the single host parasite that they embody. So we're we're in various stages of of studying what reducing the moose herd does to the to the tick population. And I think this Wednesday at our board meeting that we're gonna go over that in fine detail. So I have more to tell you about that. But that's where that's our lens, It's how ticks affect our wildlife and most specifically our moose. They're a normal parasite on the landscape, but when moose densities get too, well, when they get too dense, ticks thrive. When moose densities loosen and spread out, the ticks have a hard time finding that host. At least that's what our science is telling us. And so we're trying to kill off these sticks through starvation and lack of a host. And we'll get an update on that this Wednesday, but we don't The secondary

[Rep. Eileen "Lynn" Dickinson]: effect is it affects the human population, state police, fish and wildlife people, all kinds of hikers. It's a huge issue for medical communities or human beings as well. Sure.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Wayne?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Just to make clear, there's two different courses. Quite two different things, the moose tick versus ticks the that are people know. In the past, we've had University of Vermont research going on with the health department where our check stations collect ticks at the check stations to look for the prevalence of not only Lyme disease, but we got Babesia and Antibosmosis. So they're looking at it. It happened that through time. Probably still continued that unless they changed their research back. So that's the tick that involves humans.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: I'm happy to talk to Abigail and

[Rep. John Kascenska]: see if she's had any crossover there. Okay,

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: so what's next?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Let's see. Yeah, we can touch on the warden service briefly because there was some help they received last year that was not carried over, that wasn't fully met. You can see that they're largely general fund. They do get some license dollars there, so a little over half. And they're mostly salary and benefits. They're a very lean organization as well as expensive as they are, most of that is salary and benefits. They were made whole as well through our from an RFR last year, which I think you're all aware of. Yeah. They they they bought some some radios last year. They didn't didn't get all the radios that they needed and and not something that we're going to be able to react to this year, something that's worth mentioning.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Wayne, do you have a question?

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Yeah, well, like state police, of course, have been in. So state police and other law enforcement agencies, can you give us just a general idea of how much cooperation you do with them and a little bit about that. And also on the radio issue, state police are getting radios. And I ask you, are you using those radios to communicate with state police or other law enforcement agencies in emergency situations or when they need backup or anything like that?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: We are, thank you for pointing that out. Those radios are used for inter department communications. They're used mostly for it's all it's all a public safety communications tool for wardens to let dispatchers, other officers of of of all types know where they are and what they are up to. Right? That these radios all communicate with one another. And it and it is worth pointing out that letting letting radios span too many years will will will get technology out of date from what radios which radios can talk to what other radios. I I think that that I appreciate you pointing that out. But certainly, of all of this all of radio communication is is telling people where you are and what you are doing, inherently a public safety requirement of the job.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: So how frequently do you interact?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: They are interacting with other agencies daily, if not hourly, when they're on patrol. Yeah, we'll call it daily, but it's You may know our wardens are experts in in way too many things, in my opinion, to say that in a very positive way. But one of the things we're called on to do now is to find find evidence, homicide evidence, shooting evidence. They call us in every shooting that that occurs now. Wardens are called in to find the evidence with their with their powder snipping dogs, and they air their batten very, very high. Not a thousand, but but close. They do a wonderful job. Wardens were were first on scene the other day to the skaters who were stranded on on Lake Champlain, went out and assessed the ice so so they could go out and be rescued. They paddled out in a in a kayak in a zero degree day. It was pretty extraordinary. But yeah, they're doing all kinds of stuff. They are conservation law enforcement officers, but their public safety is their highest value order. So there are 10 things we tell them to do and public safety is on the list. Go there. It's not within our mission, but it's obviously their highest value order.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Thank you. So just one more thing and then we'll let everybody go and have lunch. If you could go to page 30, the special fund operating statement. Yes. So this is your special fund. This is the one that you're worried about that's going down that you don't have enough money in? I'm seeing $1,170,000 So tell me about that.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: I don't know if I'm worried about this fund. So this fund is a reserve fund largely to react at the moment. It's a reactionary fund, it's largely to react right now to our results of our benchmarking studies. So if Wildlife Management Institute and Macmillan Associates tell us something, we want to be able to react to that. Granted, these may be long term results asks. May not be like, you need to buy a Range Rover Sport and everything's gonna be fine. That's not what I think we're gonna be told to do. But this will be a reactionary ask. There will be costs. And so we need to have these funds in reserve to be able to react to those results when they happen. What I like to think in my mind, this is the money that is between us and outer space from sailing away into the universe. This is our rainy day fund.

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: Okay. Great.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? We're set.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder]: Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. It's been a pleasure.

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: So, committee, we are going to start at one. That's

[Rep. Wayne Laroche]: going work

[Rep. Robin Scheu (Chair)]: for everybody, that will be our last.