Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Once you're once you're set there, just give

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: us a

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: little bit of introduction. We did, as I think you know, take some testimony last week on the S-three 23 bill that has the hemp sections. So we've heard from, including from some, always want to say producers, and I think that technically that's not the right word, but processors, folks who are using hemp in CBD and other things. Thank you for joining us.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah. Thank you for the committee for having me. My name is Sam Bolivance. I am a hemp farmer in South Huron, Vermont. I started growing hemp in 2018 at my family's dairy farm in Wahlberg, and through a lot of blood, sweat and tears have built a nice little small business. We're employing about 20 people in Grand Isle County, selling hemp and CBD products across the country. About 90% of our sales are outside of the state. So I think it's a great example of value added agriculture, taking money from the country and funneling it into rural Vermont. So I'm really proud of what we've built. Here are a couple of the various products we have. We have some CBD gummies, a topical salve, a tincture, a CBD infused coffee, CBD iced tea, and some CBD dog treats here as well. So you can ask questions about the products afterwards, but I'll kind of dig into the presentation here. Do you wanna do introductions as well?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Well, sure. We could do introductions. Good. Thank you for suggesting that. But do you

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: have a question? I do. And I'm Richard Nelson, Kirby. And I've known Sam from way back in the four days. And Sam, you sell 90% of your products outside the state starting in November when that part of the big beautiful bill or whatever you wanna call it takes effect, how many of your products will you still be able to sell that much outside of the state or are you gonna be restricted in No. That's at a insane low level?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah. So the bill you're referring to, there is an amendment in that agriculture appropriation to reduce the total THC per package to zero point four milligrams. None of these products here would meet that threshold. And that is an extremely low threshold for the amount of THC in a hemp product. The industry across the country is working very hard in Washington to fight against that. There's a couple bills right now in Congress to reverse that decision. Hopefully, those will go through. And I think if anything, kind of highlights the importance for creating a safe haven here in Vermont, where these products can be sold, we can't control what happens in Washington. But we can't control how we handle these products here in our state. So that's part of the reason I wanted to come here and speak today is, I don't want to turn off the switch and stop selling all these products. We do have a customer base here in Vermont that I want to continue serving. And I'm optimistic that things will change at the federal level in the long run.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So let's do introductions. Richard, David Durfee, I live in Shaftsbury and represent Sunderland and Glossenbury down in Bennington County.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I'm John Bartholomew, I live in Hartland and also represent Windsor and West Windsor. John O'Brien,

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: I represent Royalton in my hometown, Tunbridge.

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: Greg Burtt, represent Caledonia, Villa Beach.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We have one committee member, I think, who's joined us on Zoom. Represented Bos-Londe, I don't know whether you have access to your unmute button or whether that's somebody else who's joined us on Zoom. Think that's rep Bos-Lun. Okay. Well, we'll proceed. Yeah,

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: so just getting into my presentation here, before I get into the nitty gritty of what I would like to see done with this bill, I want to just set an overarching tone here. If you want farmers like me to continue growing hemp, you have to make it easy to manufacture, produce and sell hemp products. We all remember the big boom and bust of everyone growing hemp in twenty eighteen-twenty nineteen. It didn't work out for a lot of farmers. The reason it worked out for me is because we take the hemp from our farm, get it processed into oil, and then make products with that oil. If we make it too hard to create these products, it's going to work backwards. And then people aren't going to do the oil extraction, and then farmers like me, we're not going to grow again. So just to highlight the importance of product development is tied to the agriculture of growing, hemp. So getting into this specific bill, I do like a lot of the framework. I like the idea of housing, you know, the regulation of hemp under one agency, and I think the CCB is equipped to handle this. Three changes I would like to see would be the removal of the product registration system in favor of an annual license to renew. The second change would be addressing some concerns in the supply chain around the processing possession of hemp intermediate. And then the third chain change I'd like to see are some more defined roadblocks for how do we prevent these out of state producers selling, frankly, intoxicating sketchy products to Vermonters. So I'll get into each of those in detail here, and feel free to interrupt if you have any questions if I can clarify anything. So my first proposed change, removing product registration in favor of an annual license renewal. To kind of start that off, Vermont hemp products have not had an annual product registration for the last decade. And with that status quo, we have not seen, you know, cases of Vermont producers ending up, you know, in the news on for having these products, you know, cause issues. I know for myself, we've sold 40,000 CBD products over the last ten years. We haven't had any incidents with Vermont Department of Health, any incidents with Vermont State Police. We haven't had any citations from the Cannabis Control Board. I think there is a really strong precedent that these products, especially at the lower end of, you know, we're talking about a topical hand cream, these are not high risk products that require an annual registration. Most states don't even require an annual registration for their cannabis products. So I think enforcing that for our CBD and hemp products, which are significantly less intoxicating, would be it would be a huge added burden that most producers in the state aren't have not dealt with now. I think you heard about that last week a little bit.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And when you say you sold 40,040 packages or 40,000

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Like individual product. Yeah. And so you know, getting at, okay, well, how do we make sure these products are safe, labeling requirements, product testing, and other compliance to make sure we're selling safe products to Vermonters, these can be addressed with an annual inspection as part of the license renewal process. And that's what the Agency of Ag was doing when I was under the Agency of Ag's hemp program. They would come do my annual inspection, they would pull products off the shelf, hey, can I see your test results? Hey, can I see, you know, what does this label look like? Do you have a disclaimer on here? We can still ensure product safety through a license renewal process, not at a product by product registration level. And I think that would be a good middle ground of creating some clarity and some public safety without being overly onerous to businesses. My other concern with the product registration model is that it's an unstable, inequitable way to fund this program. If we're thinking about, you know, funding hemp within the cannabis control board long term, the amount of products that a company sells can vary quite a bit. Know, sometimes they add on five new products, sometimes they discontinue a product line, that's going to change a lot year to year, whereas the actual existence of the business itself isn't going to change. So it'd be a much more stable way to fund the program long term. And I also have a concern, you know, again, if you're a small, let's say I was going to, you know, a farmer's market, and I've got my six products here. Right now, I'd be paying $75 for each of these products here, just selling them at my local farmer's market. Unilever could sell one product at every Hannaford's, every grocery store in the state, and they would pay $75. So me as a small producer selling a couple products at my farmers market, I would end up paying more than the Unilever Corporation selling one product. So I think if we want to think about how do we create a market where we're helping our small producers, but also generating enough revenue, because we do need to generate revenue to fund this program, I would rather have us take an approach of there's an annual producer's license, and maybe we do a carve out for small producers. Maybe someone like me, I'm a medium producer, I can pay a little bit more. I would happily pay more than what's currently in this bill for an annual license if I could avoid having to do this product registration process. So I think that would just be simpler for everyone in the state, for consumers, for businesses. And I think

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: There's you can't speak on behalf of anyone else, including the board. I can imagine that an argument for the language that was proposed would be that, well, every time there's a product, that's work. That's something that has to be done. So just in terms of figuring out an equitable way to pay for the work that they're doing, having to be a product based fee was probably part of that reasoning.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Totally, I understand. And look, we have individual product registration in the cannabis market. And I think that makes sense because these products are highly intoxicating, and there is more potential for public harm, and they do need a level of thorough review. I think for CBD products, again, most of which I've been selling this tincture for eight years straight. It does not need to be reviewed on an annual basis to prove that it's safe. I could get an inspection once a year, they could take some samples, the cannabis control board has a lab that they could run tests at their lab to confirm the data I'm providing is accurate, we could cross reference that data. So there still is a lot of room there to address those compliance concerns and those safety concerns. And with regards to funding the program, I think you just scale it based on the size of the business. If you're a really big business operating in this market, you can probably afford to pay more. Again, I would be fine paying more than just someone who's selling a couple tinctures at their farmers market once a month. Think you heard from a small producer in St. Johnsbury last week, you know, does it make sense to us for us to pay the exact same fee if my business is much larger? Maybe, maybe not. And I think that's, that's a conversation I'd rather dig into as a way to kind of create that funding equity there. Thank you for that. Representative Nelson,

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: thank you. Do you do you also grow in on the dark side?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yes.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: The cannabis market as well?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I do I have a separate business that is licensed in the Vermont recreational market. So the way that works now, I have to grow them in separate locations, I have separate bank accounts, I have separate insurance policies, mainly because, you know, right now the USDA is administering hemp cultivation at the federal level. So in order not to jeopardize that license, I have to keep these two businesses relatively separate. That being said, they are related. And I'll kind of dig into this with my next slide here and something that I think should be addressed in this bill. There's a lot of ingredients that are used in the cannabis industry that actually come from hemp. So the first one would be terpenes. They're essentially a chemical that just gives flavor and smell. Most of the hemp terpenes in Vermont's cannabis market right now are being purchased from out of state suppliers, primarily Oregon and Colorado. I think it would be great if those are purchased from Vermont farmers. I think what we could see is a situation where, again, for a lot of farms, it doesn't necessarily make sense for them to get into the cannabis industry. If you have a bunch of EQIP loans, don't get a cannabis license, because you're jeopardizing all of that federal funding. But what you could do is you could grow hemp, get the terpenes extracted out of those and sell those to a cannabis business in Vermont. That would be a way for a farmer, maybe it's a dairy farmer or a maple producer to have a little side business, they could still benefit from the economic growth that we're seeing in Vermont's cannabis industry without jeopardizing their federal funding status. So I think creating some clarity in this bill for, okay, we have a hemp market, we have a cannabis market, how do those two things interact? And what supply chains are we going to allow? What are we not going to allow? I think we should allow ingredients to move over. I don't think we should allow hemp products that are synthetic or they're so intoxicating, they're essentially pretending to be a cannabis product. Do we want to allow those into our cannabis market? I think a lot of people would say no. Some people would say yes, I would probably lean on the no side there. But again, I think that's something we should try to dig into a little bit. These are separate markets, but they are related. And on that supply chain, you know, a big thing that's been discussed on the Senate side, and I've talked with, you know, Senator Emilie a lot about this process intermediaries, which is essentially just a fancy word for the raw CBD oil. And that oil has enough THC in it, that technically it is a cannabis product under law, but it's not sold directly to consumers. And I think a really good analogy of this is like pure ethanol, if you're in the alcohol industry. If you want to make like a canned cocktail, you can buy concentrated 200 proof alcohol, and then make products with it. You can't sell that ethanol directly to consumers. So I think what we should do in this legislation, if you're a hand manufacturer, you have the right to purchase, possess and sell those intermediaries, but you can't sell them directly to an end consumer. I think that's a way to kind of stabilize the supply chain without putting anyone at risk here.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Addison, do have a question?

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Yeah, I was just, I mean, other parallel I was thinking since you have a dairy background is milk, way it's all those components now too, I can't buy protein, but in the industry you're getting paid from different components. So I was just wondering with you, if you had excess THC say with your oils, can you sell it to the other side of your business?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: It's a little unclear now, and I would love to clarify that with this legislation here. And I think part of what the legislature can do, to be fair to our Cannabis Control Board, there aren't clear answers here. And I think a lot of when I'm speaking with my compliance officers, when I'm speaking with the board, we're not always sure what the intent behind these statutes was. And, you know, there's a lot of these you get into the weeds of, okay, do we handle this intermediary is different than this intermediary? A lot of that, I think, would probably be better left up for rulemaking than statute. I think if we just wanted to say, okay, hemp manufacturers have a right to purchase, possess and sell these intermediaries, including into the adult use market, we'll let our the board figure out the nitty gritty details and rulemaking. But we just want to establish that as a supply chain. I think that would give everyone a really helpful framework to kind of work off of. Because like, know, from the dairy end, every part of the chain is important. Once you start pulling out certain parts of it, it destabilizes the whole market here. And what I like when this bill, we can set it up where the CCB has oversight over the hemp farming, that intermediate and the finished process. So it's being regulated at every level. I just want to make sure that that flow exists, because it is really important. I also would say too, that the extraction, hemp manufacturers and extractors should be allowed to operate in licensed cannabis facilities. A lot of the people that I used to hire to extract the oil out of my hemp, so I can make these cannabis products, they're now, you know, as Representative Nelson said, on the dark side. So I have to bring my hemp into a cannabis facility to extract the CBD oil out of it, and then take it out of. No, that's fine. That's not a problem. But it's a little legally ambiguous right now. I would really like it if we could clarify that in statute. So we can have a clear supply chain. Because the reality of it is this equipment, like a co2 extraction piece of equipment, plus $300,000 A company is not going to be saying, Oh, here's my cannabis extraction machine. Here's my separate pemp extraction machine. It makes no it's like having a separate bottling line for whole milk and chocolate milk. You wouldn't do that. This is really expensive equipment. So I think clarifying in statute that those activities can occur in the same place. You know, I think you can give the board some latitude on preventing cross contamination. I think there's some rule making to do to just make sure it's done appropriately. But using that equipment in those facilities is very, very important. And then get getting to my last big ask for this bill. I would like to create some roadblocks for dangerous products entering Vermont's market. You know, I think for me as a responsible farmer and small business owner, I'm sick and tired of seeing really sketchy hemp products sold into Vermont. And I think that's something, again, the Cannabis Control Board has limited resources, I would like this to be more of a priority. I clipped here, this is a website, Space Panda Delta, that's selling a thirty milligram THC lollipop right now. Is that a product we want to be sold to Vermonters? To Vermonters 21? I mean, this website didn't even educate me when I went on there. So I think that should be the focus here behind our legislation. Our rulemaking is weeding out these bad actors, almost all out of state selling into Vermont, while simultaneously promoting the Vermont producers that are doing a good job.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Now synthetics, you're referring to is that would that be Delta eight?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yep. Precisely. And I I think ban them outright. Ban them. Ban them outright. Okay.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And with your CBD oil, the enemy mediator, as you call it, from that, you put that in the c o two extractor and remove a good portion of the THC out of it?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Not precisely. No. We'll the raw hemp, like the actual plant material that goes into the extractor, and then that creates the intermediary. So the intermediary will naturally have some portion of THC in it. Typically, the ratio is about twenty five to one, twenty five milligrams of CBD per one milligram of THC.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: That get like really thick? Is that the stuff I stuck my finger in? Yeah. Put on my tongue and my mouth went numb and it'd be the greatest toothache medicine.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah. Yeah. You're you're highlighting why we don't allow it for direct sale to consumers. Although, who knows, maybe in the dentistry industry.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So I

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: have a toothache I'm coming to see on Sunday.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah, exactly. So again, I think in this marketplace, there are sketchy products, frankly, that we want to weed out. And I think my concern with this bill, we're kind of saying, Oh, you're a hemp manufacturer. Well, are you a Vermont hemp manufacturer that's making products with Vermont hemp that has a ten year track record? Or are you some random company from out of state that wants to jump into this marketplace and sell a bunch of synthetic vape parts and lollipops. I think that's something we need to really separate here. And empower the board to go after some of these producers, I would really like to see our cannabis control board work with the Attorney General to start sending letters to some of these companies. Really good, even though they're using the internet to get it into Vermont, think I there are still things we can do to discourage them. And give consumers a better option to I think if consumers have access to safe, licensed Vermont hemp producers, they'll choose local over rolling the dice on the internet here. So some of those roadblocks, again, I've discussed earlier, I don't think product registration is a good roadblock. I think our annual licensure would discourage a lot of these actors. They're not going to want to go through the trouble of getting a license in the state of Vermont, and the requirements that come along with that. I think we ban synthetics, we have a potency cap based on the board's existing potency cap. We require that your products are tested at a licensed state lab. We have two labs in Vermont that are very good at testing these products. The state itself also has a lab. And we should also require that retailers pay a license fee. I think that's one concern I have in this bill. There's no fee for the actual retailers of these products. All of this program is essentially being funded on the back of the farmers and manufacturers, but not on the retailers. So I think I would like to go to a place in City Market, Hunger Mountain Co op, these places are selling 10s of 1000s of CBD and hemp products. If we could go to them and say, Hey, you need to get a $250 a year annual fee to retail hemp products at your store. One, that would be a great way to raise revenue, because there's a lot of retailers, there's a lot more retailers than there are manufacturers. And two, it would give the board insight into where these products are being sold. It would be great to have a map on where in Vermont are these products getting sold. And then if we stumble in, oh, there's a gas station selling hemp products, or they're registered retailer? Oh, they're not. Okay, you're out of compliance there. Now, need to either get registered, or you pay some kind of fee or penalty. So I would like to see a little bit more done on the retailer side here. So those are my kind of three in the weeds comments on this bill. Question here, Sam.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: He's in good sentence. He was in good sentence.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That's alright. Cut people off in the sentence all the time.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I really appreciate that. Mean, obviously put a lot of thought into this, I well thought and I appreciate that. I was just curious though, can we ask questions about your products now? Sure, go ahead. I'm just curious what's the benefit or perceived benefit of drinking CBD? Like, there's a couple of edibles there.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah. So for like a like the seltzer here, rice. Some of

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: them over there on the on your left.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah. There's a gummy. So we did a survey with our customers two years ago, with 1,400 respondents. So the primary reason people consume CBD help with going to bed at night, relaxation and general relief. And third, and I think what's most interesting, an alternative to cannabis. People are picking these products because they don't want highly intoxicating cannabis from a dispensary. They want something that will help them relax without the intoxicating effects that are ubiquitous in an adult use cannabis product. So I think that's the main reason why would someone choose because people ask us all the time, well, did your product sit? Did your sales fall apart when Vermont went legal? No, they actually grew. They grew because a lot of people, they don't want to be highly intoxicated, they want something where they can get the benefit, like address the aches and pains. But again, if you're a farmer, if I'm driving my tractor, I want be able to put a saddle on my knee and address that. I don't want to be high while I'm operating a vehicle. So I think that's a really important role these products play and something that's frankly kind of under discussed. These perceived effects or have

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: they actually been studied and verified as

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: real? Yeah, good question. I would say right now these are perceived effects by the consumer base. There is some research being done at the university level, but I always am very cautious with making any health claims, because I'm not a physician myself. And these products, these claims haven't been approved by the FDA. You'll notice every single one of our products has an FDA dietary supplement disclaimer on it. I think that's a very important standard. I do not advertise our product as medicine. I don't think it is. I think it's a supplement that helps people during their day to day. And last question. You

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: said ninety percent of your sales are out of state. So it sounds like if the federal government makes no changes, you're gonna have a really tough time continuing.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: I would have a tough time.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Mean Would you be done or would you still be just have to really scale back?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Oh, God, no, I'd never give up. No, I keep going. I reformulate our products if we had to. I think we'd probably introduce some new products. I think it's something I've been growing hemp on our farm for eight years. I have no intention to stop and will adapt and thrive in any market that exists. I try not to get too stressed out about what's going on in Washington. I know we can control what the market looks like here in Vermont. So I want to focus on what we can control, not what we can't control. And I think right here, we can create a good little hemp program in our

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: state. Thank

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: you. Sam, you said a lot of these lot of products are imported into Vermont for the the other side. With the change in the federal law, if there is no change? That that won't continue anymore. Correct?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: I mean, I think the the hard thing with a lot of these companies, you know, we're dealing with actors who essentially are ignoring a lot of statutes. Whether I could see a lot of them, even if this zero point four milligram goes into effect November, just ignoring that and doing it anyways. And I think that's where for some of these companies, again, that the vape card that I have in my presentation from COI CBD, I would like it if they got a letter with Vermont attorney general letterhead on it saying you're in violation of Vermont statutes. You cannot sell into our state anymore. Would it stop them? Maybe, maybe not. But I would like to see some effort done on that front. So how much more hemp

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: would have to be grown in Vermont if it was stopped from

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: being imported? Good question. I think for my business right now, about eight to 10 acres per year fulfills my needs. I think realistically, far as like, okay, how many acres of Vermont would we have hemp production would actually sustain Vermont's CBD and hemp market? Probably 300 to 400, I mean, tops, not a lot. And this is why I'm trying to start that we need to work backwards here. Because what happened in 2018, that we told every farmer, grow hemp, grow hemp, and someone will buy it, something will happen. What we should have done is we should have worked backwards and said, okay, what is the final use for this product? What are these hemp products? Get those going, once they're selling, that's going to then create demand up the supply chain, and there'll be more demand for Vermont hemp. Because what I want, I want producers like me, I want producers like the person who testified last week, I'm sorry, forgot their name, to be going to farmers saying, Hey, can you grow some hemp for me? That's the market I want to create. So if we don't address these product issues and cleaning up the supply chain, we're never gonna get to that standpoint of asking our farmers to to grow.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And my last question is, if we don't allow koi or Space Panda to ship into Vermont, and are you saying that because our levels are at the intoxicating level? They're not even remotely close to what we're trying to do you're trying to do with them. And if the federal law opens back up again, but you wanna be able to export to other states. Yeah. So is there equity in that? Explain that to us. Yeah.

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: I don't think we can stop interstate commerce. I think you'd run into some dormant commerce clause issues there. All I want it again, I have no problem with COI selling products into Vermont if they follow the same rules I have to follow. So if they get a license from the Cannabis Control Board, if they go through an annual license renewal, if they follow the same testing, labeling, potency requirements I have to follow, then I welcome the competition. That's fine.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: John, and then we can let Sam finish up because we're running a little late.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Just a couple of quick questions. It was interesting what you said about its use as an alternative to THC. Is it have some of your customers found it's an alternative to sort of the mainline pharmacy prescription drugs for for anti anxiety and anti depression?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Anecdotally, yes, I don't really want to speak on that. We don't tell consumers what to do with their prescription. My go to answer is always speak with your physician. That being said, we do get a lot of that. And I think also as an alternative alcohol too. I mean, if you have the Vermont Brewers Association in here, beer sales are down, especially craft beer sales are down. And what's been growing more and more are these alcohol alternatives like hemp infused beverages. We would be crazy as the state of Vermont not to jump into this industry. This is one of the fastest growing segments of the national beverage industry. And so we're so reliant on craft beer as a job creator in our local communities. We need to get out ahead of things a little bit and allow it. I think a craft brewery should be able to get a hemp manufacturer's license and manufacture these hemp beverages. And then maybe you have a place like fourteenth Star that goes, Oh, we need to start buying hemp from hemp farmers, because our hemp beverage is selling so well. So that's what I'm talking about. If we make it easy to create and sell these products, the demand for the agriculture will come on the outside of that.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: So the other question was sort of reverse of what I asked earlier. Are there byproducts from the THC cannabis growers that they could sell back to the CBD market? Like, do they have or are those things usually used in their products? I was just wondering if they had excess

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: CBD or terpenes that you could use. Not really. No, to be honest, it's usually kind of a one way flow. So, I think that's all, you know, I could I could answer questions for an hour on this if you really want to. So I'll let you wrap it up. I did have a final thought here. And this is something just as son of a dairy farmer who spent my whole life hearing about rural economic development, I just listed off a couple great hemp companies in Vermont and have farms. Vermont farmers Hemco in Glover, Vermont, Sunsoil in Hardwood Vermont, Clean in Wolcott Vermont, Vermont Pure CBD and Virgin's, myself and South Hero. This is a rural economic development. And we are creating jobs and creating products without taxpayer subsidy. And I think this is behavior that we really should try to encourage in our state. So I'll leave it up to the rest of you. And, yeah, thank you so much for giving me the time.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: You didn't mention fiber or hempcrete, so don't produce any of that or did no market or?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: Yeah, I would love to talk about hemp fiber and hempcrete. It is a separate market. And I think frankly, deserving of its own bill. The reason we don't have a bigger hemp fiber industry in Vermont is a lack of capital investment in the it takes about $30,000,000 to build a fiber processing facility. So if we want to talk about that in like a budgetary discussion, it's a separate conversation from what we're dealing with here. And I think to piggyback off that, that's a theoretical market that might work in Vermont, might not work. This market is working right now. This is creating jobs right now, and it has been doing it for ten years. So I think before we think about a theoretical fiber market or a grain market, let's protect the CBD and hemp market we have existing in the state.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: One of the things that's been challenging for us is having this conversation and thinking about the bill in front of us is uncertainty about the federal change. And from a policy standpoint, whether we write policy that assumes nothing changes or that assumes things go back to the way they used to be or something else altogether, some some, you know, middle ground there. And and we can certainly try and accommodate different scenarios in something that we do. But I'm just wondering, is there anything that you've said, Sam? And I really appreciate very helpful information and and your thoughts here. Is there anything here that is contingent on the law going back into the November law being repealed somehow?

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: That you would say if we go forward with the way things are right now, that you would change any of your suggestions? I think my recommendation would be to legislate on the statutes that are in place right now. Again, right, that point four number is not the federal statute right now. That is not federal law. It is it's not enacted federal law. It's won't be enacted until November. I think we should operate right now as if it isn't enacted because it isn't. And if we get to a scenario next session where that comes into play and I'm running into all these kind of issues because, you know, there's a new federal program, then we can have the conversation next year. But I think we should really try to operate based on the way things are done right now, and we can handle that down the line. Okay. Good, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. I

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: think we'll have Bradley in tomorrow. Had the candidates already testify. We may have them come back in. I don't want to have us spend too much more time on this. I think we have an amendment that we are comfortable with. We're going to have the Government Operations Committee, is really a lot more familiar with the work of the board with hemp and cannabis, give them a shot at looking at this too. And I want to try and move that forward as quickly as we can. Do that in the next day or two. So thank you. Perfect. Thank you. I think that in the interest of time, and I think Matt Chapman has joined us and is maybe trying to get logged in. Do you have

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: a Zoom link, Matt, or do you want to?

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I do, and it would be great.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, if you want to share your Patricia, why don't we why don't we go on off off live while we get set up here for

[Sam Bolivance (Hemp farmer, South Hero, VT)]: the next