Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Nine through 15, I think it is nine through 14. There are six sections anyway, believe. We just wanted to get some testimony from the seed industry as well as our agency. We have had our our legislative council walk through the the bill for us, although it's been a few days. So don't necessarily assume that we remember everything in there. And with that, I'll say welcome and and turn it over to you.

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for the invitation to speak, and good morning, Chair Durfee and the esteemed members of the committee. My name is Jordan Gregory. I serve as the Director for State Government Affairs for the American Seed Trade Association and as you've previously said speaking to you today in support of Senate Bill three twenty three. So just a little bit about ASTA before we get into the details of the bill. ASTA was founded in 1883 and we currently represent over six fifty companies that are involved in seed production and distribution, plant breeding, and related industries in North America. Our members participate in research, development, production and distribution of all varieties of seed, including grasses, forages, flowers, vegetables, row crop cereals. We run the gamut And quality seed products from ASTA's members support farmers that grow conventional, genetically engineered, and organic crops to produce food, fiber, and fuel in The U. S. And around the world. ASTA has a close partnership with the Association of American Seed Control Officials or AOSCO, which houses the recommended uniform state seed law language. A bit of a mouthful, we call it RUSLE for short. ASTA has been a part of the conversations with AOSCO's membership to help craft and update those recommended rules, and it is through that lens that we look at Senate Bill three twenty three. So overall, ASTT is very supportive of this bill and the updates that are proposed in this legislation. However, we do have a few recommendations for further clarification of the proposed rule. Our first recommendation is to strike the following words, quote, responsible for labeling the seed, end quote, from section 11, line eight on page 17. This is a very minor recommendation and striking but we believe that it will reduce confusion when the distributor and the labeler are two different entities and it falls in line with the original recommended or the most updated recommended text with Russell. Our second recommendation is to include a definition for non commercial sharing. In section 14 line one, page 21, there's references to interpersonal sharing of seed for non commercial use. The recommended uniform state seed law language does include a standard definition that has been vetted by the entire industry. By including the standard definition, the state can balance the right to grow food with the necessary protections for intellectual property rights. Robust intellectual property systems provide strong support to the efforts to improve germplasm and increase genetic diversity, which are critical for meeting the increasing challenges of domestic and global food security. Really, are the end of our recommendations. As previously stated, we are in support of this bill language and look forward to any discussion or questions that may pop up. I want to thank the committee again for the opportunity to speak to this bill. I also want to thank the Division for Plant Industry staff at the Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets for their continued support of the seed industry and ask who stands ready to answer any questions the committee may have or offer any resources. Thank you again.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: All right, thank you, Jordan. Questions? Representative O'Brien. Maybe more for

[Rep. John O'Brien]: the agency and future. Just to give listeners some context here. So these sections came to us just as an agency aspiring to update seed standards and rules, and also somewhat in coordination with ESSA and other seed organizations?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, is this a process Jordan that's going on in other states across the country?

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: Yes, I don't have the number in front of me, but there are a couple of other states across the country that have adopted these uniformed rules and the hope and the purpose of having this language ready to go and implement whenever a state is ready is to allow for the ease of interstate commerce. And so if a seed company is producing seed that is intended for a state that they are not located in, An example this would be row crops or even some conservation seed that is maybe region specific but maybe not entire nation specific. It just allows for that movement of seed and the purchasing and distribution to be a little easier since the rules are uniform from state to state.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Brendan, were you able to testify on this bill in the Senate, the Vermont Senate Filter Committee?

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: So we did not testify in the Senate when this bill came up. The pros and cons of a state session is the fast paced nature of it and so given the opportunity to testify here we were able to look a little bit more thoroughly into the bill hence those two recommendations but this would be asked as first time testifying on this bill for this legislative session.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah,

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: so I. Wrapping my head around this now, it's a lot like what we did last year with Africa. You know, and and upgrading to fertilizer and whatnot, standards and stuff. And I thank you for coming in and testifying to us. I'm I'm I'm a farmer by trade. So, you know, and I I thought this bill looked looked good and and was a housekeeping bill more or less. And thank you for your comments and your suggestions.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Anybody else have any questions? Representative Brian?

[Rep. John O'Brien]: One, not necessarily connected to this, but it sounds like we have to get you asked to back in for having a policy discussion because you waited on that.

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: Yes. Well, we'd be happy to come back in and if need be bring experts to help answer any technical questions that you have on future legislation. Please don't hesitate to reach out to us. We are ready to be a resource.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: You may have already done this. I hadn't looked at our website this morning, but have you turned in your testimony with those recommended edits?

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: We have not turned in written testimony, but we will do so today.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Great. Yeah. If you could send that to Patricia, the committee assistant, that would be helpful.

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: I sure will. Thank you.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Alright. Thank Thank you then for joining You're welcome to stay on the call if you'd like to, because I think we'll just go right to the agency and have Stephanie come up.

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: Wonderful. Thank you so much.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Good morning. Morning. Stephanie Smith, Vermont Agency of Agriculture Food and Markets here to testify on Senate Bill three twenty three, sections nine through 14, I believe. Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And thank you for coming across the street. I'm trying to remember whether we had Steve Collier spend any time on this section with us or if he just said that he would defer to you. I

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: watched some testimony from our counsel, and it sounded like he didn't testify on this Okay. Alright. Of the the bill. Okay.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: My my recollection is a little hazy, but at some point, I know we were your name came up. So somebody said Yes.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Indeed. Yes. I am a deputy director within the plant industry division, and I manage the seed program along with colleagues. So I do the the programmatic registration process of distributors along with others. And then, Dave Huber, who's also a deputy director within plant industry, would manage the enforcement side. So that's how we work together. And I do believe that Steve Dwinell may walk through that door momentarily. Okay.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Would you prefer that we wait until he's here? We can

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: move on. I just wanted to let you all know. He's gone way over.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Recognizing that we hadn't intended to start Sooner. At 11:30. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So generally, as pointed out by Jordan Gregory, most of the changes contained within this bill on seeds are addressing changes to conform with Russell, the recommended uniform state seed law. That's

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: an existing thing.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: It's an existing document. Yes. Yes. And it's been in place for a while. But we had noticed through increased regulation of seeds in the state of Vermont that we found some gaps. And therefore, we wanted to incorporate some of those definitions. We did not incorporate it wholesale. We incorporated portions because all seed programs are different across the nation. So we just we, incorporated those portions of definitions that would be helpful to us. But we also there is a provision in here under the definition section that says if we are wanting of a term that we don't have currently, we would then turn to Russell for that information.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. Go ahead, Richard Nelson.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: The acronym Russell recommended uniform seed?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I think it's state seed law. So, yes, so that's mostly what is happening here. The other pieces that are included, are some clarifications around bulk bin sales. So you might go to a farm like store, not to name any in particular, and be able to purchase bulk seed out of a of a bin. And we just wanna make sure that when that happens, that the appropriate label requirements are like front and center on that bulk bin. So that the purchaser, it's largely a consumer protection program. I should have started with that. But that information is upfront and changed regularly is, let's say the lot number changes for the bulk seed that's contained in that bin. So we just want that information to be upfront. So we clarify that. We also incorporate within the enforcement section, the ability to enforce our reporting requirements. We find that, we ask for reports, and we want everyone to report regardless if they actually sell seeds or they don't sell seeds. Because if they don't sell seeds and we just don't get a report, we don't know if they're not reporting or they didn't sell seeds. So we're incorporating the an enforcement piece for that particular item, a paperwork item, essentially. But yearly, we do compile all that information and do, issue an annual seed report, that's available on our website. I mean, like, accurate information.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And when you talk about selling seeds, are you also including a small retail store that has packets of

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: We don't regulate the retailers of seed. We regulate the distributors of the seeds, the individuals that label the packages that are for sale for end use, use for the consumer.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And after that, it's not your concern.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: We don't yeah. We don't register sites where sales occur. We don't register individual products. We register the distributor of the product and ensure that the labels are appropriately labeled, including germination rate, that it we would respond to a complaint that it contained noxious weed seeds, but it's primarily, the label contents that we're looking for.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: So you're this is for the distributors like an L. D. Oliver. Yep. I don't know how many other distributors we have in the state, but this also include out of state companies. Yes.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Okay. Seedway, Syngenta, Corteva

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Channel Bear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Correct.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Stephanie, does cover the whole gamut end from treated article seeds all the way to organic seeds?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yep, treated and untreated seeds.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: What

[Rep. John O'Brien]: about the other end, when there are seeds that are essentially growing to something that's harvested for more seeds, like sunflower seeds, whether it's mind your seeds from birds or human consumption, is there anything

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: on that side? So we do have a feed program, and that would include seeds for animal consumption, so birds. So we do register those feed products. Yeah. Yeah. That's in a different program. For humans, we don't do human food regulation at the agency. Or we do some. I shouldn't say none. But we don't do seed for human consumption.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: And then you mentioned invasives or noxious weeds. Where does that come into it? Regulate the ANR on things like

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: The agency actually is responsible for the noxious weed rule in the state, the regulated introduced species. The agency? Yes. Yes. So we we do we regulate that as well. And it's it's partially regulated through the seed law in terms of how many seeds per thousand so on and so forth could could be noxious weed seeds. We maintain a list with I believe it's with USDA about what we consider as a noxious weed seed. And then in terms of plants, we do that through the nursery program and our noxious weed quarantine rule. And that's yeah, those are all outside the bill. Yeah. So it's that it's again, it's housekeeping. It's not that

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: it's not

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: that in-depth. But we do we're happy to accommodate the recommendation made by Jordan Gregory and asked us regarding the information on I think it's page 18 line eight or page 17 line eight. Yes, page 17 line eight. And then for the non commercial sales, I were happy to consider that I just want to review it and kind of take it in context. I haven't had an opportunity to do that, but we will definitely take

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: a

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: look.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. Good. And you'll let us know. Okay. Doctor. Nelson?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: So we have a local farm and garden store up home, and he has bins of seed. Like overseed, Timothy seed, like overseed, a mixed seed, bod seed type deal. So for him to be legal, he should have a tech. So if he dumps a 50 pound bag into a seed bin, he should take that bag label and affix it to the front of the

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yeah, photocopy it. I mean, the best case scenario is actually to just place the bag within the bin because then it doesn't have other foreign material that could have accumulated at the bottom of that bin. And it preserves the lot number of that particular bag and the contents of that bag. So just like drop the whole bag and maybe photocopy the label, drop the whole bag in, open it up, put the label on front of it.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Then you would have to change in he is yeah. Okay. Understand.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So but we the this particular these amendments would clarify that so that folks would understand the requirements to ensure the integrity of the seed that's being sold by the distributor.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Do you plan on having Jessica do expensive training

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: or so? Yes.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: There will be outreach. Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you. I was gonna ask you, from from the point of view of Vermonters who live in the world of seeds, what are they gonna be asked to do that's different from what they're doing now?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: In the terms of the businesses as outlined by representative Nelson? No.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Either either businesses or, yeah, anyone. So so

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I don't think it changes anything within the bill changes what anybody's the general public would be doing with respect to the their purchase of seed and or using that seed. The one practice of bulk sales will provide education on that. And I believe we may have provided some general education, actually, to the consuming public about what they could expect when they walked into a store. We do have some information about that on our website. But otherwise, I don't think there would be any major changes to business. It more aligns with our what our current practices are, I would say. So that's that's good.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Do you have any other questions? Represent us.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Okay. And maybe this doesn't fall into this and maybe it does. Food plot seeds. For For for deer, you know, for for building food plots, you know, stuff coming from mossy oak or sugar meat timber or a rack grower. These all fall under these as well?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Correct.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yes. We currently register those distributors of those seeds.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And is it in some of those bagged seeds, is that where we run into the issue with maybe it's not seed itself. There were something about a herbicide that people use in food plots that came from, like, Mossy Oak, and it's got a discrepancy here in Vermont whether you can use it with or without license. I can I can get more info it it may not have been in the seed, it may have been in a fertilizer? You know, like, you can buy scotch to build a fertilizer that has herbicide in it that, you know, probably have dicamba, but not back broadleafs at a very low rate that's which I was surprised to see that unlicensed people could use a dicamba, but

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: We do register pesticides. So if a I mean, just for your example that you provided a fertilizer product that contains a pesticide product, we do register both the pesticide and the fertilizer product, and we ensure that the labels are the same across the board. As far as if it's a Class A pesticide, it would potentially restrict the use by an individual to be having access to that particular pesticide even though it is contained within a fertilizer product.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I I understand that I approve. I just

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: But I don't know the case

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: that were some discrepancies, and So I just and I think there needs to be more outreach on that. I'll I'll get some information from it, send it your way. You.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Representative Lipsky? Yeah. Stephanie, thank you. Sort of remedial, but we heard testimony two days ago and then where there was a word called noxious weeds use. So some of us don't really know what that definition is and what examples of those are. You could explain.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Sure. So a noxious weed would be something identified by the state that we're trying to control or prevent the spread of in our state. And that could be a seed, that could be a plant, that could be an established, naturally established plant that was introduced, that may have been introduced by humans very long time ago. Loose Yes, loose strife would be one, knotweed would be one, Bishop's weed would be another. So it's things that would be considered a pest either to agriculture or to civic culture or to the environment generally. Yes.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: It does cross over with pine based species, forest species.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: It's this yes. Yes. We use the term introduced plant pest. Is a way we would characterize those plants, where we're assigning a human element and accountability to the spread of the species of pest. So yes, same thing. You're welcome.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Are examples of situations where what we might consider a noxious weed seed also has an agricultural purpose, since we're changing the definition to accommodate that?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yes. I mean, it was a little bit in here already. It was just more to come in conformance with Russell.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Which But,

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: yeah. And I'm trying to think of a noxious weed seed. I can see one in my like an image of one in my brain, but I don't have one off the top of my head, that we'd otherwise want to control, through this process. And again, we don't have a lab that grows out seed to determine whether or not the counts that are listed within this rule are complied with. However, if we received a complaint from somebody, we, as an agency, would then go under contract with a lab that could do that for us so that we could determine whether or not it was compliant with our laws.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Representative O'Brien? This Richard's food plots, which I had never even heard of, but reminded me long ago in this committee, Michael Brady described a product called Buck Crack that we applaud. But I was wondering, does this jurisdictionally, do you cover additives to seeds also? Like in this case, if you're feeding deer corn, it sounds like this is an additive you add to make them keep coming back.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So we wouldn't regulate that under the seed rule. We would regulate that under feed. It is against the law so this feed, not seed, but it's against the law in the state of Vermont to label a feed product as a, attractant or a bait for white tailed deer. So we don't register those products in the state of Vermont cause it is against the law. And we work with fish and wildlife, to if we see those products on the shelf, to remove those products from the shelf. And

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: representative O'Brien, anywhere where you see those products, they're not being used in Vermont. They're being bought and taken to New Hampshire where it's legal, air quotes. Sarcasm is being rampant on that statement.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Well, they're not on the shelves even in Vermont, are they? Like a Tractor Supply, do you have

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: to go to New Hampshire Tractor Supply to buy them to use in New

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Hampshire? They're available here? Yes. You just can't use them in Vermont.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Well, you can't actually sell them in Vermont because they have to be registered, and we prevent the registration of the feed product. So if you're aware of them, by all means, it's been an anonymous complaint. It

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: will be their articles sold, Tractor Supply and and sporting goods stores that can't be used in the state of Vermont, and they are sold. Dough urine. In Vermont, you can only use synthetic doe urine as an effective.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I don't know anything about that. Yeah. I've

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: been in and and and deer cocaine, is basically just just a salt product, you know, and and Deer. You know, deer mineral, you know, and you can't use those because those are bait or lure. You can grow a food plot, but you can't use just like you can't go out and place a bag of apples.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: This might be a good opportunity for the agency to remind the public of how to file, submit a complaint or a concern if they think there's something? Yeah,

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: so on the agency's website on the landing page for the entire Agency of Agriculture, there is an opportunity to submit a complaint. It's located on the upper right hand side of the web page. And then once you go into that, it takes you through the steps to submit it. And we respond to complaints.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And do you report on those, on the number of complaints? Is there any of the many reports that we ask you to give us annually as an agency?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I think there is, I'm going to defer For to

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: the record, Steve Whitell, Director of Planet Street. So the various complaints from the different programs would be reported in whatever the report is. So for example, well, pesticide enforcement in particular, I don't believe we have a report for that to the committee, do report at the EPA, so we have an annual reporting process with the environmental protection group for all enforcement cases and their outcomes, and we certainly could. Whenever we have like a feed or a seed or fertilizer, those go into the annual reports that we've taken.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: If we've taken action, we would include them in our annual reports, that is correct. And we do, so pivot away from seed again, we do sample fertilizer and feed products to ensure that they meet the guarantee that's located on the label. And we do report on the results of those. If the distributor of that fertilizer freed, we've taken, I think, 10 samples or more. I think we limit what we actually report. That's my recollection. But we do have that information available on our website.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I just wanted to say that I had a meeting chair,

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: but I wanted to say, it's you coming in today and learning about all kinds of things. Steve, since you're here, was there anything that you wanted to add?

[Rep. John O'Brien]: That was

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: your, in

[Rep. John O'Brien]: case of questions. Okay.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Anything else that committee members wanted to ask about? I will just say that we reached out to we may have reached out to several other people on this section, but specifically to Time Mowing Seeds since they're a local seed. Not sure what we call the manufacturer. Distributor. Distributor. Thank you. They did take a look at the language, did decline to testify, said that they're comfortable with what's here, just so that the committee is aware of that. Representative Lipsky?

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: You know, I don't wanna keep this committee from its dinner dialogue. But because we're talking about seed, there's a lot of transformation in Vermont agriculture. I have some ag land that has been used for haylage, not harvested by me, but they made it available at farmer and farmers in general as they go out with the cost of that. And I'm facing wanting to convert some of this hay land. And by the way, there are, it's plaid milkweed and goldenrod, it's, you know, canary grass. It's I've seen recently a video about an hour ago, perfect, you know, hay land. Where would a landowner who's a logger, not a farmer, but has hay land learn how you convert to an equine quality of

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: grass, urban extension services. Yeah, the University of Vermont Extension would likely be the source. Those are opportunities.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Just quickly thinking about reporting these sections, think it sounds like conforming language, mostly targeted towards interstate commerce. I just wondered, even in New England, do the other states in New England, have they adopted similar updates just to make seed movement for distributors easier and for consumers easier to track?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I do not know the answer to that question. I might look to Jordan, if Jordan has any information regarding New England states also.

[Jordan Gregory, Director of State Government Affairs, American Seed Trade Association (ASTA)]: I don't at this point have a number of states that have adopted these recommended rules, but I can follow-up with this committee and get that information.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Okay, thank you.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I do know that states do, I just don't have a listing of the states.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: That's sort of the push is to get as many It states to buy in as

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: makes, yes, And it's very similar, as pointed out earlier, as to the fertilizer regulations or laws that we've looked at last year as well.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Any other questions? Steve, while we're on this bill and while you're here again, you had joined us for testimony on the fees for the applicator exams. If you wouldn't mind, yeah, thank you. Thank you, Stephanie. Thanks. And I think we understand that section and I don't think there's any concerns about that. But just in having a later conversation, a question had come up about the nature of the exam, and just out of curiosity since you're here, is there a single exam that if you want to become a Class A licensed applicator, regardless of what pesticide you want to apply, there's just one exam that everyone takes. Well, actually I'm going to

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: refer back to Stephanie. She actually runs that program.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Stephanie, I apologize for your

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: That's okay. Stephanie Smith, run agency of agriculture. So for pesticide regulation, there isn't a single exam if you're going to handle a Class A pesticide. It depends on the site or where you're intending on applying. There's a core exam, I should be clear. There's a core exam that takes you through kind of the basics of pesticide use, pesticide disposal, which includes disposal, storage, transportation of a pesticide, as well as protection of the environment. So that's the core exam. And everybody takes that. Private applicators take that as well in addition to doing qualifying or meeting the requirements for worker protection standards. And that's the only test that a private applicator needs to take unless they're going to do concurrent categories such as aerial fumigation and soil fumigation. Those are the three concurrent categories associated with private applicators. Everyone else takes the core and a category. Categories include ornamental shade. There's a turf category. There's an agriculture category is 1A. There's food processing. List goes on. There's like, I think it's approximately 23 exams that we administer, as well as an exam for dealers who are the retail sales point for pesticides. So there isn't one single exam.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And the exams then are different based on not the actual pesticide, but how it's being used.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: How it's being used. Correct. What context is being used? Correct. So structural would be another one as well. Forestry, that's another one. There's many.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Very good

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: enough. Thank you. So what would be the difference for a person that is a private applicator on their own front, Mhmm. To become a commercial agricultural applicator.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yes. They would then need to take the core as well as the category that they want to apply. And so if a forestry category, let's say.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And if they already have the core taken, do they then just take the section that would allow them to be commercial?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Currently, you have to retake the core. The private applicator exam doesn't serve as the core in a commercial context. I will say we've talked about how we might manage that, but that's the way it is today.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Thank you.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Isn't it the same test, the core?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Well, it's a little different, but we don't have the ability currently as outlined in our rules to move the private applicator exam to satisfy the core. They might be the same test. But in terms of administration, it's not. It doesn't follow that way.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Is the

[Unidentified Committee Member]: core a difficult test?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Well, requires being able to read a label and pick out information contained on that label, as well as calculating the active ingredient to be applied to a specific area. So there's math involved. I'm not going to say it's difficult. I think people can study for it and pass the exam. The agency has something called an initial cert. We just did it on the seventh this week. And the initial certification is a day of training. And then as soon as you're done getting that training, you take the exam. So you've received information. It's fresh in your mind. And then you take the exam. I did that three years ago and went in cold, took the initial cert and was able to pass.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I'm wondering about is what I'm thinking about some of the testimony we had when we were talking about making rodenticides or regulated pesticides. And and I think at that time we were told the fee would be 25. So if a farm wanted to do it in their own land and it was they had to be certified. There was a $25 fee and they had to take an exam. Is that the exam you're talking about now?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So all of our exams currently, they are so in the statute here, the change actually outlined here in this bill, it is proposing a $25 fee for anyone taking the exam. Currently, it only applies to folks that are retaking an exam. And so but we're extending it to any time you take an exam. So I think the answer to your question is yes. There would be a fee of $21.05

[Unidentified Committee Member]: exam, that's the exam you'd have to take. Because I'm thinking in terms of when we were talking about rodenticides, we're not spreading that around. It's more like how to apply it, how to avoid contamination to wildlife. It's a very different kind of thing than if you're spraying other types of pesticides in fields.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So you you would have to still take so regardless, I think if you're using a rodenticide on someone else's land, That's a commercial Okay, so you're a But you're not a private applicator. This is Stephanie Smith walking in and by I might actually I'm gonna defer to Steve. Sorry about that.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: We're peaceful chairs here. Steve Guinellie, Director of Division of Planning and Industry, Agricultural Food Markets. Yeah, so core exam, which is the private applicator exam. So if you're just doing work on your own property, you could take that exam and it would be $25 Then you could purchase and use any pesticides that are either state or federally restricted use pesticide on your own property. So if you made rodenticides restricted use, that would be the license or the exam you'd have to take in the category you would have to get. It's actually an interesting idea though. We potentially could come up with a separate type of exam just for our dentist ideas. Right now that's covered under what's called the structural. So most of the folks who use rodenticides, you know, as part of their work activity are structural pest control, and they take a structural pest control exam that has information more directly related to rodenticide use.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: They still have

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to take that initial

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yeah, they always have to take the four. The four is safety, the general things that Stephanie was talking about, environmental protection, how to read the label. It's really all about reading and understanding and being able to follow the label is what the core exam is all about.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So I guess where I'm going is that we actually went down of the making rodenticides a restricted use. How can we make it less onerous for someone who just wants to control rats in their barn?

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: They would always have to pass the court. So we made some real fundamental changes to the certification and training plan. And the other aspect of that is that the certification and training plan, we have to submit that to EPA, EPA has to approve it because that's part of the delegates, that's not delegates, it's part of the agreement that states have with EPA about how to regulate pesticides is that we will have a certification and training plan that EPA has approved, they looked over and accepted. So, in fact, we just did that about two years ago, The entire country had to do that. Every state had to do that. We just went through that process.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: For someone who's gone through the test before, you take this test every year. Is that correct? No. You can it once and you're done.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: You can take it once. And then as long as you maintain your license and obtain the continuing education units you need to, then you don't have to retake the If you don't take the continuing education units and your license lapses, then you have to take the exam.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: If you're someone then who is good at taking tests and is comfortable with the questions, how long is that test? About an hour.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So the is 100 questions, And at least 10 of those are specific to the label. And then the other 90 are other questions addressing. And you have to get a 75 on that test. And then all the categories are 50 questions each. Provide, actually in Montpelier on Wednesdays, we provide three hours for folks to take their exams. We do time limit it to three hours and they can take more than one if they're here to both take a core of, say, a category. But yeah, so it could take any amount of time for any individual to feel comfortable before they submit. But we offer three hour Right. Time

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: And the pass rate is about seventy percent, I guess.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Actually, yeah, I have numbers.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Between 30 some odd percent value.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yeah.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So it's not as easy as a driver's license at the end of the day. But it's more not as hard as the bar. So

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: 30 we 5% value free. And that's consistent over the last two years. And then retake rate is 26. We currently have approximately just over 1,600 certified applicators in the state and two zero four pesticides.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yeah, one thing I'd like to point out, one of the changes in the bill allows people to retake the exam the next day. Right now, the way it's set up, you have to wait a week and then a month and then a year. And retake it, which is difficult.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: It's difficult. However, we don't offer exams every day in person. But you could take it online approximately every day, assuming that the agency up. We have a bit of an administrative process on our end. So we typically say, have to wait up to five business days.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: But lot of people take it. I just had a conversation this morning with a person who runs a pest control company and they've had to fire people because they couldn't take the exam again quickly enough. And this remediates that. And so, it allows people to Some people have a hard time taking tests. And so, if they take the test and fail it, rather than imposing some arbitrary timeframe, they can study again and take it again while it's fresh in their mind and

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: get employed. It's been a I bit a rough

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: was wondering if

[Rep. John O'Brien]: those statistics, do you break them out between say people pass the core but fail their category? Does that count as a failure or a success?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Failures are incorporated into that failure. It's not break it out by category. And people do potentially have to wait a year before they take the test again, currently. And that's going to change under this bill, hopefully. We do have cases of that happening.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That hurts.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: It doesn't. Good. Thank you. Continuing Ed credits. Since I've taken this side hustle here, the company that I would get my continuing Ed credits won't do it on a Monday. So I'm here in session. Where is that place where people in my, you know, applicators? Is there a place or a web site they can go to to see where these courses are offered or online?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yes, we do. We have it. It's on our website. You go through USA Plans and you can search for both webinars that are live. You can look for courses that are just offered all the time at your convenience. And I can't remember the category for that one. And then obviously there are in person opportunities that the agency offers and others offer and your business apparently offers as well, the one that you look for on Mondays, unfortunately, though. And then we also have the pesticide applicator newsletter that we provide to all registered applicators in the state of Vermont. And you can get it's emailed out to all applicators twice a year and you can obtain your credits through that system as well.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Well, thank you for that. I gotta make sure I'm on that email list and I will go to the agency's website and look because I just soon not have to retest again. Can. I found the training that day just to go and not take the test, but to sit through the training. I was able to do that a year ago. And we covered rodenticides a year ago. I found that training to be very, very valuable. And I think it was three credits there. It is good stuff.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I appreciate it.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Thank you. Stephanie, this may be for you. And, obviously, I like to learn when I'm in here at post preach, but, you know, you talked about forest applications. And so how these are done and do they target different, like spruce, bud, worm, or they you would how how do you and do you do it by, you know, by airplane or how do you

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: I don't. I'm What are examples of this silviculture forest application? Forest applications? For someone might want to Emerald ash Indeed, emerald ash borer, woolly indelgid, elongate. We don't have Asian longhorned needle in our state. So insects and unwanted plant pests. And I would assume if there's some fungus that would attack a forest,

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Land that would be

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: preparation. Land preparation. That's true.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Monoculture, inverting or implantation.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Right. So

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: the tests aren't designed to teach you how to control a particular pest. They're designed to how to use a pesticide. Once you've decided you're going to use a icide to control pests, you know, how to go about using it in accordance with the label. That's what it's

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: all about.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yeah, a safe application as well.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Yeah, and if there's, you know, a particular, I'm trying to think of the best way I can think of a structural pest control. So, there are certain tools you use in structural pest control that you wouldn't necessarily use in crop agriculture. So the test will be geared toward those types of application equipment situations you'd find.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: So these aren't industrial type applications?

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: No, we don't have, and I should, there are no aerial applications of pesticides in Vermont, they have to be permitted by the agency, we haven't permitted any.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Haven't permitted any drone applications.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Well, have, I should clarify.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Have

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: permitted, I think last year we had a number of drone applications that were permitted. We have at least three companies that are looking for permits. But anything, I just always, people bring up the example of aerial application at best sites, in Vermont, they're all permitted and we have control on them.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Thank you. One other reciprocal licenses. I understand New Hampshire doesn't reciprocate with anybody.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: It's possible, yes.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: But like Maine.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: We have, I've seen New York come in. So we will accept a license from an applicator that lives in New York and is certified in New York and we have applicable or parallel categories, like that's another aspect that we have to consider, we will accept their license and we they're allowed to register in our state to be applicators in Vermont. They have to, like all applicators renew annually. Yeah, we do have reciprocal folks in our state.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: All right, we'll take one more question. I just wondered, do

[Rep. John O'Brien]: you have the 23 specific sort of categories listed on the

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: They're all listed on our website, indeed. And we don't offer all of them online at this time. We launched in December our online exams, and we are going through our exams potentially to update them or to create the bank of questions that would be pulled from for someone who's taking an online exam. So we don't have all of them, but we have many of them. But the list of all the exams that we offer, which would then result in in person exams if we didn't have it online, is available on our website, as well as the many categories.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Right, the biggest reason I asked. So yesterday we were hearing testimony on PFAS pesticides in agriculture and what came up, I've never heard of this, but probably it's not so much in Vermont, but fungicide is sprayed post harvest on peaches, for example, to prevent mold. So would that be something, you know, Vermont in twenty years we can grow a lot of peaches here And a pesticide is being applied post harvest to food. Would that have to be a category that you would add?

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Well, we would have it as an agricultural category already. And whether or not that pesticide product would have to be registered in our state. And then whoever was applying it would have to apply it in accordance with the label. You're mentioning the time frame it's post the fruit forming, but then the harvest, there's probably a harvest delay before you can actually harvest that product. But I don't know. I don't know the pesticide. But you have to apply it or to the label.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: And we catch up all of that.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: So again, it would be a labeled product, would have to go through the EPA registration process, would have a tolerance for use on food crops. All that would already be built in to the fact that it was registered by the federal EPA. And then when it came to us, we would ensure whatever label was presented to register Vermont conforms to what EPA required.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: If you want something like Caracabat, whether it's used pre emergent or is it desiccant, both of those are covered. On the label.

[Stephanie Smith, Deputy Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: And that's approved by And we just make sure that they match when we register the product in our state. I

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: think that we have or will invite you to testify next week or sometime soon.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Right, yeah, on the PFAS. PFAS, yeah. And I will be coming in on Wednesday.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay, all right. Not your area. All right, well thank you, thank you for staying and shifting gears a little bit here. Appreciate that.

[Steve Dwinell, Director, Division of Plant Industry, Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets]: Well, thank you. I always appreciate the opportunity to come in.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We will break. In fact, we're not breaking, we're done. We'll break for the weekend.