Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So I do see that we're live. So let's let's just have some conversation, and then we can and, Bradley, are you able to stay with us for a little while? Okay. So he Bradley will be listening, taking notes. Representative Nelson. Yeah. So I have

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: strong opinions. I am not about taking tools out of the toolbox, and it's happened. And I can see that it'll happen again and again and again. The toolbox will be assaulted. But but in this one, I could change how the tools are used. And there are plenty of good herbicides, economic poisons to be used as desiccants. No one needs to use paraquat as a desiccant. I don't know why it would be used except maybe that it's inexpensive, very effective, and it doesn't get into the roots, but I couldn't imagine. I certainly wouldn't wanna use it. So I could take away its use as a desiccant and and allow horticulture, you know, orchardist and viticulturist if they feel the need to use it. You know, it it this is a herbicide that's come with a lot of changes over the years and how it's used and PPE requirements and whatnot for it. That's where I kind of stand.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: You mentioned that since we last met and spoke together about this bill, there was a fairly significant piece of news. Yes. Right? That Syngenta, which is a company that we talked about, manufacturer of the brand name is? Gramoxone. Gramoxone, yeah. Gather is what most products of sold in Vermont is from that manufacturer. They have they've announced they're gonna stop manufacturing it, I believe They're gonna pull year.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. They're gonna pull their license.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: And In The US?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: In The US, and they're just gonna keep it through the December or December so that people can use use up use up what's in stock so it doesn't all end up in front of my house, John O'Brien.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Right, yeah, so it's not in the landfill even. Yeah.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: When did this

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: announcement come on? Monday. Oh, really soon. Yeah. They manufacture it in So the this is a UK, all of that company's manufacturing of this pesticide is, I believe, in The UK.

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: And then

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: maybe that company is Syngenta, S. Y and G, Which owned by Cham China.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Representative Bartholomew. If one can believe the internet, it says that Syngenta has maintained that paraquat does not cause Parkinson's disease. Of course, we've heard, I think, pretty compelling testimony that there is a connection. Where the truth lies. How can we tell? But like I said, I think what we've heard is pretty compelling. And obviously we've heard it's extremely toxic, even without the link to Parkinson's. But despite the fact that they paid these settlements, it says they've paid over $187,500,000 to settle lawsuits. So I'm kind of feeling like the company, it'd be interesting to be able to listen in on their board meeting when they made this decision, but I'm guessing there are two possibilities. They're not making enough money with this stuff anymore, so it's not profitable, or they're tired, they're worried about the liability, maybe both. So they've decided it doesn't make sense to sell it or use it. And in my mind, what that is doing for us at this particular moment is creating a void where it's the company that where we get it most commonly isn't selling it. So is another company gonna jump in there and sell it? And maybe in the void, it would be better off for Vermont to just say, we're gonna join all these other nations and just say, don't bring it here. Don't fill the void with another option of the same stuff. And I get the part about the toolbox, but this is nasty stuff. And I'd like to see this go through.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: There are 25 other products that contain Paraquat. Believe that's what I heard that are licensed in the state of the mind already. But I just,

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: think that's- I'm just seeing this void here. Maybe it's an opportunity, because most people are,

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I think, buying the, that's my impression, I don't know, but most people are buying this Aejenta product. Yeah, heard anecdotally that in Vermont, that's what people are buying.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Close the door before someone else fills the void.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: I remember seeing some some of the data, maybe Terry Bradshaw or something,

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: and it was, you know, 15

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: names. It was like Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That sounds about right.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: 12 of them, think.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: You know, you ask that guy sitting right there, you know, who in that realm. And I I just the profit margins are so fit. And it it yeah. It's strong. It's it's a tough one. I I I agree. Not on my front. Okay? Not on my front. But, you know, life's about choices too, but not on my part.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Just much sway do we have to say, get UVM Extension to do studies on say alternatives?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Not that we can direct UVM Extension, we could direct the agency to do something. I don't know without funding what you know, how that would work. Yeah. And I am ready to be stood corrected. I don't know that we can really ask or tell UVM to do anything. Yeah. It

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: would be interesting if somehow in here, I mean, I was building study committees, but to get research world, whether it's UBM or Cornell and whoever, to look at the European Union or Turkey or wherever they grow a lot of apples, China, and what they've done for alternatives here that work well without the toxicity.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, I think we heard testimony that Cornell had done some research, maybe UVM also, on ferroquat glyphosate and then the third one, I always have trouble.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Oh, that in between one, right?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Also begins with G. Yeah. It sounds similar to glyphosate and it's sold under the trade name rely, I think.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And then there's also Prowl that you

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: can't remember the chemical

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Prowl. But, yeah, you're right. There was that other g once.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Think it is. Something like that.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Maybe we could train coyotes to mark all of the fruit trees and that'll kill the

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Did you have a hand up Jed or no? Well,

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Jed decided to throw in a comment on thought about, you know, a, we don't have this ability to fund new studies, but is gonna it take five years or three years for UVM to

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: for us to have a Vermont study? And it seems like So one thing that occurred to me was we could, and this sort of goes along with your idea, think that we could direct the agency or the ag innovation board, which is a board that reports to us every year and is supposed to be thinking about pesticides. I think we could direct them to look into this and come back with some recommendations because it may be the case that regardless of what we decide to do, that there won't be any paraquat on the market in a short amount of time.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: If

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: other manufacturers either aren't able to or choose not to fill that void, then where does that leave our growers? And having recommendations, it seems like would be useful if we, regardless of what we do, whether it's our decision or somebody else's decision, that might be helpful.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: And then if we had a five year phase out, but part of the directive of that was using research for alternatives and then maybe revisit at that moment of banning it, saying, well, yes, we found better alternatives.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I'm not clear what you mean when you say research on alternatives. Does that mean a review of the products that are available, or are we talking about developing new chemical? Because it seems like the latter would be beyond the purview of UVM or Right,

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: no, I'm saying when the EU, say, banned paraclot, what did orchardists in Europe, which we know they have thousands and thousands of orchards, where did they turn? Did they just turn to of like neonics to alternate chemicals, or did they turn to creating

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: So you're thinking more library research rather than field research?

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: No, field research too, I think, as far as even some things like glyphosate might work if you develop shields for the trees, so it did penetrate the bark, for example. I think there are probably mechanical things that might retest it too. If you knew that, okay, paraquat, genius of paraquat burn off is gonna go away, how do we replace that with something else? Whether it's everything from livestock to other herbicides. Yeah.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: There's a whole list of them.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Alternatives or just other other brand names?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: No. There's a cherocet glufosinate. Yeah. That comes Which is rely two eighty and carpentasone. Yep. Ethyl. Carpentrazone. Ethyl. Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. Same thing.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: What are those? Pear Cloth?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: No. There alternatives to Pear Cloth. And I

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: spoke to Terry Bradshaw to help me better understand what it might mean for Vermont growers. He didn't have any real insight either on whether the market might be filled by somebody else or not. He mentioned that blue fascinate and reminded me that when he was in presenting, there was some research, not necessarily definitive research, but some research showing that it could cause canker on the trees and then that would lead to infection and then loss of the trees. So a concern that's out there anyway. We don't need to solve this problem right now, but if anybody has anything else to say. Did anybody read Greg sent over? Yes.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Article, which I haven't had

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: a chance to look back at.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Nothing today.

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. You you could take a look at that. And I did talk to Greg a little bit this morning about that. I will note that Greg and Michelle have obviously perspectives on this too, that we should be hearing from it and wanna make sure that everyone's voice is heard. Any other concluding thoughts?

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I think the whole committee should weigh in. You know? The it's only orchardous. They only they are seem to be the community in Vermont that is currently relying on

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: this. In a very specific way. In a very specific

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: If that said, it is many farmers, including this committee, say not on my land. And we know that it is highly toxic. Or no one has refuted that and only perfect conditions of total PPP, no wind, any tear or you know, it's seriously toxic. You know, as a steward of our environment, we all bear a responsibility to protect Vermont crops, Vermont church, our environment. Know, it's kinda remarkable that so many modern agricultural productive countries all over the world have banned it, and I appreciate the this toolbox analogy. But if knowing a little more about what the alternative are more environmentally friendly, safer, and we can still protect the food farmers in Vermont. I'd love to hear

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: a little more about that. We have the we have the agency's experts on this scheduled tomorrow for testimony on different bill, but I'll see whether they can make some time. We're pretty busy tomorrow, but we do have some time, I think, where we could, while they're still here, ask them if they then speak that question. What are the, we've heard what the alternatives are when other people get their perspective and Better advocacy.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Yep, yep. John? Just gonna expand on what you were saying. I was really taken by some of the testimony about protective clothing and how, even if you're licensed and you really understand the toxicity and what you need to wear when it's 85 degrees with 100 humidity and you're out there spraying this stuff. Are you really wearing everything you need to wear? I was like, I wouldn't wanna do it because if you really understand the risk, you would, but are are the farmers and the applicator really, really doing it? Is it are they really safe?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Don't know. Well, that's if I may, that's what's nice about special permits. And then Dave Hoover and his troops will know who was using it when and where. And you can always do a drive by to make sure they're following.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: They've been sitting in the shed somewhere.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Not yeah. But they have a special permit. They're gonna use it these days. Mhmm.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Patricia, can you update the agenda tomorrow? So we start at 09:30. And I don't know whether our first witness isn't able to get here till 09:40, but we'll be let's start at 09:30 anyway. And then so we can move things along a little bit. Is anybody I'm not hearing anybody objecting at the very least. I'm trying to figure out where we might have common ground to a ban its use as a desiccant. So just prohibiting its use as a desiccant for support.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: All we know is perhaps a couple farmers, one maybe even uses it on soybeans as a desiccant in Vermont sometimes.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I'm not sure that we know that even that is happening, but it is used in For sure, peanuts and cotton. Yes. It

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: sounds like other crops too.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: I think so, yeah. And potatoes, Richard. Not on potato, not pear cod. They use regular potatoes, but they use it on soy. We we think we think they use it on soy.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: No, not in Vermont,

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: but in other places. Do they use it?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: No. They use it down south for cotton. Yep. And of course everyone likes good peanut.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Prepare pot on it.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: And then they spray. I use insect pests in my potatoes and they suck all life right out of

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: their heads.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: But, yeah, they, they, they use, you know, cotton is a treat. And if you went out there and left cotton, it would continue to grow and grow and grow, which I didn't realize till this

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: It is till. With forest type, can grow?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Flat, red clay.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Part of the

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: forest economy. You should probably I mean, you know, like, tear up. Actually need to go, but Yeah. I think maybe talk to you. I made an analogy. You know, call me a very small caliber logger, but I've worked I bet more than one crew, and I never and very occasionally, but not uncommonly, there are very dangerous trees that are marked because and I never wanted anybody under my employ, as either a subcontractor or an employee, to take the risk cutting a tree that had a high risk potential, and I always personally cut them. And because I could live with myself if I killed myself. But I couldn't live with myself if somebody else was taking a high risk for my livelihood.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yep.

[Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: And that's been my whole life. So, you know, I can't imagine asking an employee where I'm not there on a spot doing, you know, but that's just me and I'm but this is possibly not a now, yes, but

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: let's keep thinking about it and we'll continue the discussion tomorrow. Thank you everybody.