Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: And good morning, Bradley. Morning. Bradley Sherman, office of legislative council. Here to do a walkthrough of h eight sixty eight.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And and actually, before you get started on that, I'm gonna just have a a quick show of hands from the committee to take eight sixty eight. Let me get a motion actually to take the short form bill off the wall and begin, you know, working on it. So moved. Yeah. Thank you. It's been moved. We don't need a second. Any discussion on this? So I'm gonna say all in favor and everybody who's present can vote yes. Yep. And people online, are you are you there?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: I'm there, and I approve.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. Representative Nelson. Not sure, maybe we lost him. Any opposed? He's opposed. All right. I think we have a five-zero vote. So let's proceed. Thank you.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Hey. So I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen. And so this bill there there are still we'll go over the points. Sorry.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We'll go

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: over some points that still need to be hammered out before the bill is ready to be voted on. But this is an amendment to short form bill eight six eight, an act of a to prohibiting the use of ultra processed foods in school food programs, and it is creating a study committee. So the study committee is healthy foods in school meals, study and report. And there's the creation of the healthy foods in school meals task force to study and report on the use of ultra processed foods and school food programs with recommendations for whether, and if so, how to limit the use of such foods. The membership, this is the point that needs to be ironed out. So there is a to be determined piece here. But currently, the membership is listed as one food one school food nutritionist, one representative of the Vermont Farm to School program, One member of the house representatives who shall be appointed by the speaker of the house, one member of the senate shall be appointed by the committee on committees and to be determined. Powers and duties. The task force shall study and report on the use of ultra processed foods in school meal programs with recommendations for whether, and if so, how to limit the use of such foods. The task force's recommendations shall include the identification of specific foods to phase out, practices schools may adopt, utilize local produce, recommendations for how schools may cook from unprocessed materials, and how to minimize the use of ultra processed foods in the Vermont school meal programs. The task force shall examine different food preparation practices among various schools in the state and identify the best practices schools currently use to reduce reliance on ultra processed foods. Taskforce shall have administrative technical legal assistance from the agency of egg education and the agency of agriculture. This bill is kind of a hybrid between the two programs. It might be administratively easier to choose one of these programs, one of these agencies to get technical assistance from instead of an either. It's up to the committee.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Representative O'Brien,

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: would legislative council be party to that too?

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Imagine we could be.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Well, the way it's drafted, I don't think Not right now, but yeah. Involved, yeah. And I'm not sure whether that was intentional or not. It possibly was intentional because we've been asked to be very thoughtful about when we involved ledge councils during the summer. It was getting out of control for study groups and task So to the extent that a committee can meet without the assistance of legislative council, it is encouraged. I get it. I'm not sure whether Michelle said that when she was drafting it or asking you about it.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: No. No. But it's yeah. So it's a possibility, but you know? So we'll take that.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: But they both have counsel by those agencies, so they could be.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: So currently the report would be due on or before 12/15/2026. The Healthy Foods in School Meals Task Force shall submit a written report to the House Committee Agriculture, Food Resiliency and Forestry and the Senate Committee on Agriculture of its findings, including a report on best practices school may adopt to reduce the use of ultra processed foods in school meals and any recommendations for legislative action. The task force shall meet at least monthly between September 2026. Secretary of Education and Secretary of State of Nisch shall call the first meeting of the task force to occur on or before 09/01/2026 task force. And this section is, about meetings. Task force shall select a chair. A majority constitutes a quorum, and the task force shall cease to exist on 01/15/2027. So section the standard section about compensation for legislators and members who are not legislators, and the effective date is on passage.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you, Bradley. Let's can we just go back to the top then? Let's go through it section by section and see whether there's anything we might want to I know you've already indicated a couple of things we might want to either change or elaborate on. So starting with section one, yep, representative O'Brien.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: I just wondered, would this committee define ultra processed, or would that be the purview of the working group? Just sort of know what they're after.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So I think, actually, I think we wanted to remove the term ultra processed and just have it be healthy. Okay. Which is probably no more precise than ultra processed. But have it not be limited to ultra processed. Was President Vasluk had suggested that, and he could unmute and confirm if she wants to, but if she's not able to do that, I believe that was her thought.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: But then also the mission,

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: it seems, would be

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: not trying to reduce unhealthy food, but increase healthy food. Is that where the bill is

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: going then?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Where's created sorry. Wanna see if it bring this up. And and yeah.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: There's such foods. Right. And I and I think that's exactly right. I mean, we would have to change. So initially, I thought we were just changing the title of the task force, but that's perfectly fine. Excuse me. But we would have to change some things.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yes. You want

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: to limit the of healthy food in schools. But we can kind of change the language to increase the healthy foods or could report on the use of healthy foods and how to limit the use of unhealthy foods, you know, we can we can address the language in that way.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yep. Okay. I think it's good to flag.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Can I say something when there's a chance?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yes. Please do. Representative Bos-Lun.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Yeah. So sorry. I I lost my service for a moment, but I but I'm back on. I I understand you're talking about the sorry. There's I know what's going on. The the section with changing the language with ultra processed foods. And basically, what what I mean, I think it's okay to include that word that phrase in there somewhere. But I think my impression from talking to the advocates is that they very much prefer this first step of establishing a task force to be gathering information about what is possible, what's going well, what can schools learn from each other. And then we can also talk about what do we wanna phase out. But it's not just about what are we gonna phase out and what's the timeline for that. So I would say as much as possible emphasizing, we're working to find ways to make healthy food for kids, and that might eventually include phasing out ultra processed foods, but that's not gonna be in the first part. That's not gonna be in the first instance.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Renee?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yes.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: So representative, when we're looking at the creation, currently, says report on the use of ultra processed foods in school food programs. Do we wanna say report on the use of healthy foods in school food programs?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: I would say I would say maybe evaluate school menus in, you know, menus in in school meal programs and look at what we can do to minimize and potentially phase out ultra processed foods while enhancing whole foods and from scratch cooking or something to that effect. I mean, I think, basically, we just wanna leave it open so that the task force can make the recommendations that come out of their meetings, not determine ahead of time what they're gonna conclude. Because they they don't wanna feel like they have a mandate at the beginning. You know, they we wanna figure it out together what is possible to help make better meals for kids. Okay.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: That's great. And and if I one more. And and one more question, representative Rosland. Do actually, no. I think I'm good. I think I'm good for right now. We can we can keep going.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. Okay. Alright. So that deals with with little a creation and then the membership. So we've got a school nutritionist listed, someone affiliated with the Farm to School program, a house member, a senate member. Representative Bos-Lun, did you have other thoughts?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: I think maybe maybe we we wanna have some space for advocates who work in food security.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. So we might name. I don't know whether we name hunger free Vermont or whether we could say something generic about and somebody works in food security.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Okay.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: I think I think it it could go either way. I mean, I think most likely, would end up being held at free Vermont. It's also possible somebody from Milford would wanna join. So maybe maybe two two spots for advocates, two or three spots for advocates.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I don't think that we need to limit it to one school nutritionist either. There it might be beneficial to have more than one voice there.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Yeah. I I agree. And also yeah. The nutrition a nutrition director might be a better title. I think, generally, the the people that run the meal program at each school, I think, are called school nutrition directors.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: The food service directors? Yeah. Yeah. Difference, right, between those two titles?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Well, there might be, but I don't know what food service means. Nutrition like, Harley's title, I believe, is nutrition director. And he makes the menus and makes the plans for the school and, you know, figures out the local options and all the you know, does does all those things. So the the the nutrition director is the one that has the big picture.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. I'll just say we're not making final decisions here. We'll be taking testimony from these organizations and people that we've discussed next week. So I think we can anyway hope that we've got some ideas there. Representative O'Brien?

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: One of the heads of the school food authority fall. That's what we're talking about? Yes. Okay. And I was wondering about, I know they're providing support, but should there actually be a designee from Ag and So

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I'm thinking when we get down to the providing support part, that we could pull Ag out of that and just have it be somebody from AOE that this doesn't need to involve both, and education seems like it would be the better choice. I don't know if that's right or not. And either way, yeah, we had originally both of those. We had somebody from each of those agencies, and apparently it's a question of they have limited resources and we don't want to put more work on them as necessary. But I think it does make sense if we're going to have somebody very intechnical support that they'd be participating too. So we're going to invite them to testify.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: They don't cost money either, right, because they already work for the state.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. In general. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They're just taking the the time away from all the other tasks. Right. So why don't we add to this list of representatives from the agency of education? Yes. Representative Bartholomew.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I can probably be talked out of it, but it seems like we need more representation from actually in the schools. Maybe an administrator or someone who would be able to provide a reality check to a video. So if we had True, that would be

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So somebody beyond a food service

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Just one or two people who were associated with school, and they're all the only thing they focus on is food and diet, at a very different perspective from the administrative in the schools, and not the eight zero eight. Certain appeals of budgets. Right, Okay, sounds great, but you know what it's going to cost?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, I'm coming at this without a lot of understanding of how it works. But if there is somebody in each school food authority who is the director, the food service director. That person presumably has budgetary responsibilities. And then there might be a nutritionist also who is focused more on the quality of the ingredients. So having both of those represented would make sense. And I would say, yeah, having two of each of them, we don't want this to get too large and unwieldy, I think I would say tentatively, let's go with that. I think it's of each food service director and nutrition.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I think those are some of the food service director is gonna understand the food budget, but they're not gonna see the whole whole picture for the entire education budget for their district or their so someone with broader school administration administrative duties. Okay. But I could be talked out of it, like I said.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And more, do you want to jump in?

[Anore Horton (Executive Director, Hunger Free Vermont)]: Thank you. And I'll important, executive director come up with your mind. So just a couple points on this. I think you're correct. So one of the challenges for school nutrition programs is that the reimbursement rates are insufficient that the federal government provides so many school districts allocate general fund money to their school food authority. So I do think someone who represents the business office for the entire district and not only the budget for the school food authority, that would be wise to have someone or a couple folks with that kind of experience. And also it's unusual for school food authorities to have nutritionists necessarily. School nutrition director is kind of responsible for both of the pieces that you were talking about, Chair Durfee, of managing the school food authority budget and also being accountable for the menus at the end of the day. So there wouldn't necessarily be a new someone who is a nutritionist in a school food authority that really varies very widely so just some additional

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: information That's for helpful. Thank you. Representative Greg up.

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: You probably want a business manager from the supervisor who asked for the program.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Sounds like that. That would be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. So as a school school business manager.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Just

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: one? One? I think

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: Well, if you get a supervisor, you're using five schools or

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. Let me put it at one for the moment. And before we actually sit down again as a committee, we can get a little more information and check-in with you, Bradley. Having that position represented, I think, sounds like

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: representative Brian.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: What's what's the, I'd like to speak again when I have it when there's a chance.

[Anore Horton (Executive Director, Hunger Free Vermont)]: School nutrition program director. What's the standard. These

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: days. Should that replace nutritionist then?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So so it it sounds like the food there is no food nutritionist typically, but maybe representative Bos-Lun wanted to jump in. Did you have

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Well, yeah, I was just gonna say I didn't have the I didn't have the language pulled up when I was speaking before. I just could hear you talking, and now I have the screen. What I was talking about before with the nutrition director, like with Harley, his job is to plan the menus and make sure they fit within the budget. And, I mean, his role is that's the level that we really need the most represented on the committee. I don't think a school business manager who's just looking at budgets isn't gonna have a lot of details about how to make healthy good meals and what are good strategies and how can you get good things from farmers. I mean, the kind of input that we need is gonna be more of a ground level people working with food and policy. So I think that that number on school food nutrition change that to commission directors and maybe put two or three of them would be my thought.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: K. Good. So we'll we'll certainly emphasize that position and then also hold a seat for somebody who can be, like, also saying, here's the global picture of the budget. Representative Nelson, were you trying to also speak?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yes. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Michelle is is really wrapped herself into this and and I think has a really good grasp of who needs to be on there. I would like to to take this language, though, and forward it on to the principal of the school the school that I represent on a school board. Just have them look at it, you know, and just to give them a one off so they don't think that we're trying to and if any of you other folks have people schools that you could have them just take a look at it. But I think Michelle's right on to it and have a study group and figure out the the feasibility of it all and how they can do it and move forward, you know, being frugal with taxpayer dollars. But I I applaud everything that's in it so far. Thank you.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Alright. Thank you. Yeah. You can feel free, any or all of us to, yeah, work on that over the course of the next week or two. Representative Bartholomew?

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: It might be obvious, but I think the when we talk about a school nutrition director that we make sure we use lowercase so that we don't rule people out because their title doesn't perfectly match. Yeah. Good point.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Good point. Yeah. Thank you.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Alright. Let's why don't we just need to run into lunch hour, Gary. Thanks. So let's go on to page two, hours and duties. Page. We'll revisit the ultra processed food there. Representative I

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: was just gonna I mean, Bradley, this looks like the kind of thing you need to really rework action that initials.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Yeah. I I think that's right. If we wanna take the focus off of ultra processed foods, which I'm happy to do.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yep. That's the first sentence, definitely. And then the second sentence, the recommendation shall include identification of specific foods that phase out, practices schools may adopt to utilize local produce, recommendations for how schools may cook, how to minimize the use of now so that's shall include it doesn't say that you can't include other things. Do we need to say that

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: I'd say may. I'd say may

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: shall include is good. Okay. Unless somebody has an issue with any one of those things. But then to make it clear that we there may be things we haven't thought of that they would like to include. They're not included from adding anything up. I maybe we don't need to do anything to get back the case here.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: I'll I'll make a note, but I I've got the idea.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Alright. Administrative assistance, Dee, I think, again, I pick the agency education there. Someone needs to mute. Michelle, representative Rosland, did you wanna say something?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: I don't know how much administrative support we're gonna need, honestly. I mean, I feel like it's pretty likely I'll be the representative from the legislature, and I'm happy to convene the meeting. So, I mean, if we need somebody more neutral, then maybe we can have somebody come in from one of the agencies. But I don't I don't know that we necessarily need this on an ongoing basis. Although if there is a legal question, it would be it would be useful to be able to ask. But, I mean, I think as a legislator, I can I could ask questions about policy anyway, you know, outside of the meeting?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. I think that this would be helpful, for example, if you're not all meeting in person. In any case, you would need to have the meeting Zoomed and broadcast, I believe. So rather than have you or whoever ends up chair, be helpful to have that support.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: If if that's something that the that one of the agencies could do for us to to set up the Zoom and facilitate the meeting, that would be that's I'm I'm fine with that. I hadn't envisioned that part, but that's that's totally fine if that's the usual part of a task force. I have never set one of these up before.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Well yeah. I mean and you wanna have maybe somebody taking notes. So I think we don't want to ask chair or anybody in the task force to be doing anything other than focusing on getting the report ready, know, taking testimony and then working towards the goal. So then the report itself is due on the fifteenth. It's coming to our our committees. I think you could also go to the education committees. Yep. Okay. And for meetings, Bradley, since the the first meeting has to be by September 1, I think maybe we should say August and December.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Yeah. I think the hope had been that we could have five or six meetings, so I would think we might actually start sooner than that even. So but if it's if the language is to occur by, that would be fine because that gives us flexibility to start sooner if it's signed and and ready sooner than that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. It's just I think that is the best practice not to have it start too early just in order to get everybody in the air. But if you like, the last couple of weeks of August should be realistic. Okay. Okay. And then so compensation, I think this is pretty standard. We've noted that this bill will have to go to appropriations as a result of the compensation. I will give the appropriations committee heads up so they know that. Good. Anything else?

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Last number two here. These payments shall be made for monies appropriated from agency of education and the agency of agriculture. Maybe strike the agency of agriculture since I think we're just focusing on the agency of education here. What can we do there?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Is that

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: is that sentence necessary, strictly speaking?

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Usually, yes. Okay. Where the money's come from.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yep. Mhmm. Boy. Okay. I

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: don't know if it necessarily has to come from one of the agencies or it can come from the general fund.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Let's flag that.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. We'll flag it.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Sounds good. We may not want to be, like, having it come right of it. Yeah.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Okay. Okay.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I I we'll have to figure out how to do it. Right. Yes. Right.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Where do you study committees? Know speakers has some Yes.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: You a question?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Ask Can a question?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Can question? Ask ask question? Question?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Can happen to know a if we're doing the meetings by Zoom, there won't be a mileage expense. Is there still a per diem constant compensate just for time then?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I think there is. Yep. I think there is. And I think

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: that we're either strongly encouraged or required to include that typically. It's at least strongly encouraged. I read the statute, and for legislators, at least, it's first committee meetings and and subcommittee meetings is the requirement. And but for legislatures anyway, there's a fund in the general assembly to to pay for time and and per diem expenses for study committees and things of that sort. I'm less familiar with how the funding would work from, like, the agency of education or something for the people who are not legislators. But we can we can flag that to see oh, go ahead.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Yeah. I was just gonna say if you could find out what the expenses are for that, because I think it's gonna be pretty modest. I mean, I know I've been on on committees in in other places in the past, and the mileage reimbursement can be quite substantial, especially if you added up for this many meetings. But if we're doing it on Zoom, the the I think the cost is gonna be pretty modest. It would be useful to know what would that what would a ballpark be that we're asking the general funds from to fund those per diem if there are expenses for individuals to participate?

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: I

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: think the answer to that though is that if you're in the legislature, you get paid for the day, your legislative pay, and then if it was in person, you get paid mileage and if it actual cost for meals, but if it's all by Zoom, then you wouldn't have those too, but I think you'd probably still get paid per diem for the day. Believe that's pay is the way it's worked for. So

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I I think we we're pretty much bound by whatever the rules are or the statutes are. Just a question of figuring out what the rules are, particularly with where the money comes from for paying the other task force members. Alright. Can we leave it there? Alright. Thank you everybody, and we'll we'll reconvene at one this afternoon after lunch.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: We change it this

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: afternoon. Thanks, everyone.

[Bradley Sherman, Legislative Counsel]: Bye.