Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Who you who you are, where you're from, etcetera, etcetera.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Perfect.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So, welcome.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Alright. Thank you, Chair Durfee and members of the committee. I appreciate the invitation to come in and testify. My name is Angela Satcowski. I am the director of the Vermont Landlords Association. We're a statewide trade organization for housing providers in Vermont. I'm also a practicing attorney, and I have a private practice in Shelburne, Vermont, where I provide legal services and support to housing providers that is sort of the exclusive subject of my practice these days. So I have been asked to come testify about H537. I was going to focus my comments, exclusively on section three as it relates to the landlord tenant relationship. Sort of common unit, developments, and communities are, sort of outside my practice area and my scope of knowledge.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That's fine. No, we wouldn't want you to speak to an area that you were comfortable speaking to.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Perfect. So I first like to say, I think it's important that, people have access to food and have the ability to, provide food for themselves and their families. And I think we have a lot of information and reports about food insecurity in Vermont and, you know, ways to, help people get to that place. I don't think I've ever been before this committee before, because I work primarily in the housing realm. And the landlord tenant relationship can actually be quite contentious at times and can be sort of tricky to navigate for both landlords and tenants. I know the housing committee is currently working on a large landlord tenant bill. And so I think, while there are a lot of things that have been thoughtfully put into this bill in section three, I think it has the potential to create some conflict where it doesn't need to be and perhaps create some challenges for both housing providers and renters in this situation. So my experience right now is landlords and tenants deal with growing of food or plants or having gardens on sort of a case by case basis. I don't see a lot of disputes or conflicts regarding that. Not all properties are set up for this type of even in planter box situations. And so it's usually a discussion that landlords and tenants have, if it's something the tenant wants to do. If the property is able to support it, and it makes sense. Work out the details of that between themselves. I don't know if the committee has been hearing complaints about tenants not being able to put in vegetable planters if they ask for it, or not. But that hasn't been sort of what I've seen in these situations. What I have some concerns about is how something like this would get handled if there's a problem. And so it's always how do you deal with a problem with this relationship. And the only tool that's available to a landlord is an eviction. So, if a tenant were not doing what they're supposed to under the section, you know, putting vegetable garden where it's creating a health or safety hazard, or where it's interfering with tenant parking, the landlord doesn't actually have the ability to go in and just move those planters. That's the tenants property. They're not allowed to do that. And their recourse is to send them a violation notice, which under Vermont law currently is a thirty day notice. And then if there's not compliance to start an eviction case in the court, which. Is about a six month process. So, this I think has the potential for creating some more avenues for conflict. And also for creating some situations where the tenant says, it's in the statute, I can just do it even without permission of the landlord, which is one of the things that we run into occasionally. So, I think it's a fantastic goal, I think that there may be some points here that there could be some clarification. Perhaps it's as simple as permission for landlord to be able to move or fix the situation without liability to the tenant. Maybe it's something where landlords allowed to collect extra deposits in these situations to ensure that the tenants complying and removing and not creating a problem.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Page five if anybody's following along. Line 11, a landlord shall permit a tenant to grow a vegetable garden in portable containers approved by the landlord in the tenant's private area. So that gives some protection there, I guess, to the landlord by saying pretty definitively, I think, that the landlord would have to sign off on that. I can imagine that you might run into a challenge if the landlord said no, and then the tenant tried to, you know, find something that would work and wasn't able to if they kept if kept hearing no. Right. I

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: I think I would we're if we're talking specific language, in that particular section, lines 11 and into 12. Tenants private area, that's not really language that we use in housing. So it would be probably, you know, something like portable containers approved by landlord in tenants, rented premises or, rented space. I mean, I can I could probably flesh that out a little bit more, but that particular language is not something we see, in the housing context?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: If we were if we were to take your suggestion there, would that be sufficient to, in your mind anyway, make this workable?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: I think my request my request would be to give us maybe some, not teeth. That's not really the word I'm I'm looking for. But some ability to deal with a situation where a tenant has placed a garden that's interfering. So, you know, I'm looking at three and four on page six for section c, you know, some ability for the landlord to be able to move or remove those items without liability to the tenant if they are impeding or causing a problem. You know, I think what what we're looking for is the ability to be able to manage the situation on-site that maybe doesn't involve an eviction. You know, landlords don't want to have to do that, but they also need to be able to manage their property and the exteriors of their property.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: The so the operative word here or one of the operative words is shall or landlord shall shall permit, and then in a container approved by the landlord. Okay. And then and noting the suggestions that you just made down below. That's helpful. And then the next so number two on line 13 is a landlord may may not shall, but may authorize a tenant to install a vegetable garden other than in container. So that seems to give the landlord the ability to simply say, no, you can't do anything other than a container.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Correct. It will or you can only do a container in the space that you rent, right? So sometimes that includes outside space, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it includes just includes a porch. So it's tenants aren't always renting out the outdoor spaces, they may be able to use them, but it but they don't have the exclusive use of those spaces. So I think, you know, I think there's there's potential there for conflict between tenant to tenant as well with, you know, somebody ate my vegetables, or, did something to my my plants. That I have actually run into or on properties where, landlords have allowed, this to to happen. So it does create conflict, even if you don't intend it to.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Is there anything else that looking down you already made reference to section little c there or subsection would be a landlord may place up to those restrictions. Otherwise, look like they would cover the the scenarios that you can imagine coming up?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Yeah. I think the only other thing that I would request is, something very explicit that the landlord is allowed to collect extra deposit from the tenant if they are putting in some sort of garden that whether it's containers or otherwise, there's always a risk of damage. So if it's an actual garden garden, that's going to be more intrusive into the property but even planters themselves if they're over watered or not cared for properly can cause damage to to the building and to the premises and so, if the tenant is going to do this, landlord having some higher level of protection because of this extra add on would be helpful and appreciated.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you. Questions from committee members. Go ahead. You said you just deal with land you don't deal with HOAs?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: I do not deal with HOAs.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So if a a tenant wanted a garden, I would think and the landlord's okay with it. I'll specify some areas because you might put the garden on the leach field or you might put it on the waterline,

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: and and

[Unidentified Committee Member]: that could you know, some something breaks and everything gets right fixing in.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Correct. I mean, rental properties within HOA properties are sort of multiple layers of challenges for sure because you have the landlord tenant relationship but then you also have all the rules and regulations from the HOA. So those those are even more complicated. Absolutely.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I think I would just echo what you were saying that it might make a lot of sense to allow deposits because my own experience is seeing some rental properties as an owner or, I mean, a a tenant may have this grandiose idea for a garden, get permission to carve up a piece of the of the owner's lawn. To plant this thing, they raise the bed with soil and then do nothing with it. And then after a while, it's you got this useless bit of lawn that's full of weeds and then they leave and the landlord has cleaned it up. So it seems like that's probably one of the most common scenarios where people have this great idea to do a garden, but they really never see it produce any food.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Correct. Or they, or it is maintained for a period of time and then it's not because that particular tenant leaves and doesn't remove the bed structures. It's just it's, it's a more complicated, I think, situation and relationship than say somebody who owns a home in an HOA because they own that home, they presumably are going to live there longer than maybe many tenants live in in a place for sure.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: How long have you been practicing this area of law?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: I've been practicing this area of law since 2003. And it's been my exclusive practice area for about fifteen years. So I've always done landlord tenant, but have moved exclusively into this realm in about the last fifteen years. So it's all I do.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And are are you here representing yourself or representing a larger group of other people who do what you do?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: So, I am here representing the Vermont Landlords Association. So, we're a trade organization for Vermont housing providers. So, generally, I'm asked to come in and testify on behalf of the housing provider community, generally private landlords in that regard. But I bring sort of a unique perspective and experience because of the legal training and sort of the legal work that I do, which is sort of unusual for someone in my position.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So the folks that that are members of the organization would tend to have maybe more than one property or more than more than a couple of units or is it everybody?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: It's everybody. I have yeah. I have everybody from I have one house that I rent to I've got 400 or 500 units that I manage type and everybody in between and a couple nonprofit housing providers as well. So it's a pretty wide swath of folks in Vermont.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So even if you can't speak for every individual landlord, you represent a broad cross section, sounds like. Correct. Okay. Can you give us any sense of like, have no idea how many rental units there are in Vermont or how many how many of us rent as opposed to own our own homes?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Correct. Well, so that's a very interesting question. There's been a lot of back and forth about Vermont and rental registries. So we don't actually have a rental registry in the state of Vermont. The best data that we have comes from the census. And our best estimates is there's about 75,000 rental units in the state of Vermont. But those are just guesses because we don't actually know for sure how many units are rented.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Represent thank you. Representative Lipsky.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah, Angela. Thank you. I have a lot of constituents. So who are tenants and categorized Vermont's rental challenges, and I'm talking about it for thirty days or longer. Vermont's laws are very tenant friendly and very not friendly to landlords. Meaning, it's very burdensome once someone stops heading, etcetera. But so I'm a little conflicted. I'm a strong supporter of the right to grow food, yet I'm just allowing that he realized that the landlord community is very challenged. And it never occurred to me that what we've been working on for months could be in conflict with long term tenants. We hear a lot of blame for short term rentals taking housing stock from potential homesteaders. But the argument is always you you'd be nuts to be a long term renter in Vermont because the short term renter has no rights even for three nights or five nights. You don't have any addiction challenges or sort of things. Anyway, just reflecting on that, I'm a big supporter of the rights to grow food for monitors, but I have a lot of empathy for the challenges of long term.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Yes. Yes, thank you. I appreciate that. I think thank goodness for all of those folks who are willing to provide long term housing to Vermonters, notwithstanding sort of the challenges of the business. I did want to raise one, it's not really necessarily related to the bill, but I know a lot of municipalities and other communities have community gardens. So they are setting up space and designating space where folks can rent plots or grow plants or flowers or food or otherwise. And so, you know, those seem like a good avenue as well for people to be able to utilize where the space has already been set up. It's already been designated as with sort of the infrastructure and the ground laid out. So, you know, those that's another option here for folks if they're not able to do on their where they live currently.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Any other questions or thoughts? We did hear yesterday, Angela, that last point that if there are people who may have mobility issues or for one reason or another, aren't able to access as easily a community space. Yes, representative Bos-

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Yeah, just, I mean, you were talking a bit about the idea of potted plants versus in ground gardens. And I know when we had the original walkthrough of the legislative language for, I think, the bill that we have introduced, it talked about having potted plants. And and in this committee, we were talking a little bit about why would we have that? That seems weird and restrictive. Hearing what Angela has been talking about, it's like now it's understood. If you're a landlord and your garden is all torn up and you had grass and it's turned into a garden and then the tenants are leaving, that would be a different kind of disruption. So, I think one thing for us to think about is, do we wanna go with that level and then maybe take Angela's suggestion of you need to make a deposit so that somebody can pay to return that to the previous state if you do an in ground garden? Or do we wanna keep the potted language for certain sections? I don't know what makes sense, but it is good food for thought. So thank you, Angela.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Yes, you're welcome.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Representative Bartholomew. You said you're not really talking about condominiums where you own your unit, but not land. Can you offer any insight? You willing to take a question on that? No. Okay. Alright. Fair enough.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Fair enough.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That's just one of the challenges one of

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: the challenges with this bill is how we deal with that kind of situation. So thank you for your honesty.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I think that would be a condominium association, and they all kinda run like an HOA. There's yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: It is there a parallel organization? I think there is, Angela.

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: There there might be. I don't I don't know who they are. It might be helpful. I know there's a couple of property management companies that help manage homeowners associations and HOAs, like somebody like that might be helpful to have come in. I think there's one out of Williston, and I think Appletree Bay Property Management still manages condo associations. So that might be a useful person to speak to because they're sort of boots on the ground, like, behind the scenes with HOAs.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay, great. Yeah. We thank you. That's helpful. We'll make a note of that and see if we can reach out to somebody to speak to the first two sections of the bill or at least section two. Representative O'Brien. Angela, do you have any experience in in, people renting farms?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: Only when it goes very, very poorly, And, the owner of the property has to ask them to leave, which can be incredibly challenging because we're talking about somebody that comes with a large group of animals that also need to be moved. So, yes, in my with my legal hat, I have done a few of those but only when the relationship has completely broken down and it's not a great situation for anybody in that in that scenario.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. Great. Well, I think we can wrap up there. Was there anything else that you wanted to pose with Angela?

[Angela Satcowski (Director, Vermont Landlords Association)]: No, I don't think so. I appreciate the time to be able to come in and talk about this and provide some information. And I'm always happy to come back on or answer any follow-up questions that folks might have. Always willing to make myself available.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you very much. Thanks, Larry.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Unidentified Participant]: You think other committees wave to the

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: camera when people are inside the office?

[Unidentified Participant]: I just sound indicative to us.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I think it's a universal.