Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: We're Is it posted yet?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: No, just stopped in where to go live, just a sec.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And it sometimes takes several minutes for it to find its way through the system, but while that's happening, why don't we go ahead and get started?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Good morning, my name is Cheryl Achilles. I'm the Vermont Ag and Environmental Laboratory Director in Randolph Center. And I understand from what I'm reading of this bill, it's regarding labeling and testing around baby food products for toxic heavy metals. So four contaminants of concern, from what I understand, nothing more, right? Okay. So the agency of agriculture, this wouldn't be under their purview necessarily. But I have talked with staff to kind of figure out what it would take to roll it out in case this ends to land on us. I'm not sure. So more research needed. But I was telling Chair Durfee earlier that my original role with the state was to get the Vermont Department of Health Food Laboratory ISO accredited. So ISO seventeen oh two five. So the American Association of Public Health A two l a, American Association of Laboratories, came to testify the other day and mentioned v d VDHL specifically, and their capabilities. But what he didn't mention was, they don't have chemistries under their certification. It's only the microbiology food laboratory at this point. And that was the scope that I worked under years ago as well. So just know that to get ISO accredited, it takes two to three years, maybe four, depending on what you're trying to do. And it's pretty costly. It's costly to maintain. When I was there, it cost about $5,500 per year, just to maintain that certification. A2LA was our certification body, and and they came every year. So it was every other year was an on-site audit, and the in between years was a desk audit, quality desk audit for that. So no matter what, $5,500 a year, just to level set that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We wouldn't there's nothing in this bill that would be requiring anybody to start a lab or to contribute.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Okay, maybe I misunderstood because I saw that manufacturers were required to test monthly, I think, for lead, mercury, cadmium and arsenic. I did check the FDA website. So in the bill, it mentions to six micrograms per kilogram level. And I don't know what the health department stance on that is. I'm sure they want to go as low, close to zero as you can. But there's some instrument. Usually the limits set go beyond what an instrument can can detect. So I wanted to make that clear. Even the most precise instruments right now may not, it cannot get to zero. So if if you're worried or thinking about that, I that's something to consider. Yeah, so PPV and micrograms per kilogram translate, it's just another way of saying PPV. The other thing is the FDA limits. I did some research. I saw that four states in the country have laws around this: California, Virginia, Illinois, and Maryland. Some followed whatever the FDA says for limits. And so this I did some research this morning on the FDA website. Lead is only defined at this point. So it's ten ppb for certain commodities or twenty ppb for others. So like root vegetables or other things like that. So they they really split it out finely. So just know the the bill is much lower, which may be fine. So in order for instruments, if if it you'd want to consider what instruments can do. So I'd have to do more research to see how low it could go, really. So

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: there's a machinery and equipment has some sort of tolerance level that's not the right word, but you can't detect it below a certain level.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Correct. So when the instrument gets to its lowest detection limit, there's some variability there. And so you want to have your reporting limit a little bit above that so you have a consistent reporting limit. So there's that. Otherwise, it's hard to trust the data. People would question that and not understand that there will be some variability depending on the day, the person running it, the temperature in the room, that sort of thing. So just know that. And the FDA hasn't defined the other three contaminants yet. So that's percolating through on the federal level as well. So I don't know if

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: that helps. Burke.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Yeah, I believe that bill is mostly asking for companies to post the levels that they are finding on representative samples at a certain

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: it I'd have to look back, but

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yes.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: You mentioned, you know, the variability

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt]: could potentially be room temperature and whatnot

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: could can affect that. Is that what you're saying?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yes, it's around the reporting limits. So the lower you force that instrument to detect, the more variable it could be because of environmental factors in the lab. Just, yeah. So six parts per billion may be reasonable. I don't know. I'd have to do some investigating on what the method is for testing these kind of commodities are. And that's another thing. FDA has specific methods that they want people to use in order to trust the data. So it's consistent data, too. If everybody's using a different method, there's questions around, is it like, like for like, that sort of thing. Does that make sense? Yes.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Sure. We learned yesterday that most of these four benzene toxic heavy metals are residuals coming from soil just occurring naturally. Yes. And so do you ever go out and test, since we've talked a lot about prime ag soils this session and test residually in Vermont in soils where we're at with those?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yep. Specifically don't collect the samples. We rely on folks to submit those to us. But yes, we have the capability to test soils, water, sludge, things like that. So that'd be our role. And we can do that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So you're able to test for these heavy metals? Yes. Soil? Yes.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: And water, correct.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: Representative Burtt. So if I think one concern you have, maybe you

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt]: can answer this, maybe not, but our manufacturers in Vermont who manufacture babies, know, difficult would it be for them to get this testing done. I'm

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: assuming they

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: would have to, if the labs aren't available in Vermont, they'd be looking to another lab somewhere regionally from there to send a sample to them, I'm guessing. Is that a common thing that food manufacturers have to do anyway? This an unreasonable burden of any sort?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: I can't speak to the unreasonable burden part, but yes. So if a manufacturer, they have certain requirements, quality requirements they have to meet. And yes, they would send out to a commercial laboratory in the region, for example. I can think of a regional cheese maker that I don't think is no longer stationed in Vermont per se, but they would send out to their regional lab. So they would obtain, if they have their own laboratory, they would send it there or they would send it to a commercial place potentially. One thing I do want to clarify though, is the way the Vermont Department of Health Laboratory and the ag and environmental lab are set up, it would be under a program. So once we give results, we'd have to give it to our regulatory folks for awareness. We could also provide it to whoever wants to submit a sample, but we're not necessarily public facing labs in that way. So there's a process that needs to happen in order for if there's an action limit that isn't met for that process to start.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: The testimony we heard yesterday, I think, said that there were maybe 39, maybe in a state, were 39 baby food brands or companies that were active selling in, I don't know if it's California, and that not all of them were in compliance, it seemed, but the major manufacturers of baby food, the names that we all are familiar with, they're already doing this. And probably if we went across the street around the corner to the supermarket and grabbed a bottle or a pouch, we'd see the QR code. Anybody get a chance to do that? I did not. But presumably, there's a single package that they use for their product, and they're using it in all states, including Vermont. But we also know that there are companies based in Vermont or maybe nearby that perhaps aren't selling into the other states at the moment, so they haven't had to comply. So I think it's those manufacturers who we're thinking about, who haven't already been affected by what's happened in other states and trying to envision what are we asking of those companies as part of this, and how much of a burden would that be? So we understand that our own state lab wouldn't be the place they would go to, but they might be able to find another lab in the region who would willing to do the work and be qualified based on the criteria here. Yes. That all makes sense?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yes, it does.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Representative Lipsky.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Chair, this may be a question for you, for our witness. I was here for a lot of yesterday afternoon. So what is the closest lab to each that interdisciplinary function? ISO and then also backslash another

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Maybe the witness does have an answer to that.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: I actually, I don't know what the closest lab would be.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Maryland, Virginia, and Vermont are at least Eastern Seaboard. Right.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: They indicated there were six labs in Vermont that met, I think, these criteria. Yeah. But including SARS, so.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Right, was that H2LA that mentioned that? Yeah. The gentleman there?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: But you've noted that we're not able to handle chemical tests. Correct,

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Chemistry would need to be brought Yes. We both have similar instruments, but clean. You want to keep one instrument clean, so to speak. So there's detectors in there. If you run food through it, it tends to be like a dirty type of thing, soils and water not so much, but soils and sludge also a dirty thing. So your cones that are the detectors that they use would become more dirty. So you want to keep the dirty stuff away from the clean stuff that you're trying to detect, if that makes sense. So like water would be a cleaner commodity, different instrument, that sort of thing. But as far as the closest laboratories, I don't know who the commercial labs would be for that. But public health labs, specifically, their roles are to kind of help regulate, provide the data to make sure that manufacturers or whomever are meeting those requirements. So yeah, it's kind of a sticky wicket because we're regulatory And we're not, we're not there for profit, necessarily. So does that seem the closest places are, right? Right. So They could potentially FedEx it or send it by UPS or something quicker versus the post office or yeah. Mr.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Bartholomew? I may have misheard something, but you said that you can't really test currently for metals

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: in the lab.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: No, we can test for metals in the lab, just not in baby food commodities. So there's different testing methods for each type of thing you want to test. So for example, soils and

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: So you test for in soil.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: All right. That's the part.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yeah. It's gonna For sure. Yep.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Is that right?

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Can you test for it in maple syrup or do you?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: We have checked lead in maple syrup, yes, when asked. We used to do that regularly, but the program, it's not necessarily a big ask anymore.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Because of buckets not getting used much?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Correct. Yeah, they've changed the rules on galvanized stuff, so it's improved a lot. So there's not necessarily that pressure to ask for it.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Does UVM have a certified lab? Do you know UVM UVM Extension?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Not that I know of. Not for ISO, no.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Yeah. I was wondering if you can you be a confirming lab? I was a manufacturer and an ISO lab said it had this many parts per billion, could I then appeal to you and say, can you double check those?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Not baby food, but usually the public health labs, it's called a presumptive. I'm going to talk microbiology for a second because that's what I know. So it'd be a presumptive positive and same with the chemistry method. So you'd always want to do two different methods to make sure you're getting similar results. So potentially you could do that within the lab or have a second lab, be a referee lab. And usually in FDA cases, it's the FDA regional labs that do this. So there's a lab in Chelmsford that would take it on. And potentially, if there was an issue with the test result not meeting the requirements, then they discuss about how to do an enforcement action. Yeah, hello. Kate, sorry,

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: I just addressed the whole.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We talked about adding back into the bill formula, infant formula. Would the lab be able to test infant formula for these metals?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: I'd have to look into what would be required. So I can tell you we are not ISO 17,025 accredited, which is the requirement of this bill. So that's rule number

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That's why. And it's not critical. Yeah, go ahead, John.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: I don't see anything in the bill that says, it just says the manufacturers have to test, but it doesn't say anywhere where to test, does it?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Mean A proficient lab. So it could be

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: really anywhere near

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Anywhere, the correct.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Any accredited. Right. Yeah. Assuming they meet their Okay.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yes. So it'd be up to the manufacturer, it sounds like, to vet their labs that they're choosing and make sure they meet the requirements needed.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: That our lab may not be equipped to do this now does not change anything

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: necessarily. Doesn't really change a whole lot.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: I'm here as an advocate to say cautionary tale, I think, if it weren't gonna be pushed down to either of the labs.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Understanding. I'm not missing something in

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: the bill. Good, other questions.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: Just a quick comment. We haven't had a discussion committee wise here, but what is the universe of baby food? If Greg makes applesauce, is he gonna QR code on his applesauce because it could be used as baby food, is a baby food, but it's not selling it as a baby food.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Is applesauce in a baby food jar any different than applesauce

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: in Yeah. A regular

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: It depends on how it's marketed.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: It's not sold in small little individual containers. Mean, you can't actually get small apple slices, but I

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: mean, it's defined here in the Bell, baby food product sold specifically for babies and children younger than two years of age.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: Absolutely. So just because something could be a baby food doesn't mean it's baby food.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: That we're limiting, they're testing them really to the manufacturers who say it's baby food. Yeah.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: The labeling. But are

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: marketing their products as baby who do those.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke]: So

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: anything else that you wanted to add?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: I can't think of anything, sir. Testimony

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: that we heard had to do with sourcing carrots, talk about vegetables had were a a great source of something's having that. And one of the sources came from a country in South America that had a long cultural history of lead mining.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Interesting. And

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: so those, let's call

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: them carrots, that came from that country

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: had a Higher source of lead.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: And in the old, consistently a higher testing, that particular hazard.

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: So

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: would so this is a question maybe out of your realm, but would that, you know, be a serious warning sign on where you source?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Yes. Yes. For manufacturing,

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: where they source?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Right, they would have to pay attention to their raw materials that they put into the mix, so to speak. One example of this is, I don't know if you've heard of the lead and applesauce recall that happened in the last few years and under further investigation, was cinnamon sourced from poor manufacturers basically with other, you know, cheap materials, so to speak, that is causing this. So it's affecting dollar stores or, you know, lower income folks. That was detected by public health labs. Right? That that was the first alarm that was raised, and then it became more of a a larger national issue, so to speak. So that's all I can say is, like, we as public health labs are good for the initial warning, but we cannot do it alone without help as far as the manufacturers doing also due diligence and ensuring that they're not sourcing their products from potentially contaminated sites.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Cheryl, while we have you here, even though it's not in the bill, are you testing water, soil, and food for PFOAs and microplastics?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: We're not doing microplastic testing. We have method for its method five EPA method five thirty three in drinking water certified. We've had that for about a little over a year. And we've had moderate requests for testing. So I think we're getting the word out still. And programs have had challenges with funding because it takes time and effort to have the boots on the ground to go collect and to bring it to our lab sort of thing.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Soil? Can you test soil for it?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Not yet, but we're working on that method. So we're hoping to have that on board soon.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. And would you test on behalf of other state agencies or departments?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Correct. So we work with DEC primarily. Agency of Agriculture also we're working with.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: It's specific to the PFAS and Giveaways. Correct. I wasn't sure when you when you answered the question whether you were talking about the public or consumers submitting samples or testing that hasn't ramped up yet or if it's a state that hasn't ramped Right.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: We we don't have the that's that goes back to reporting. We don't want to be in the position to deliver a test result to a member of the public without a program in the wings to help translate the the test results. Yeah, Because it looks hard to read to a normal consumer, and I totally get that. But we're not in the business of interpretation. We just provide the data for somebody. So it would have to be

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: water utility sends us in our bill once a year, a report, and it's indecipherable too. Right. Right.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: So would you consider municipal water companies as part of the public or are they an agency?

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Nope. So I I've been working with the drinking public drinking water folks at DEC in the background. So they are aware of our capabilities. I understand they had a pitfall last year on the federal level to remove any federal level language from the state statutes. So from what I understand, they've done that. So we're going to continue that conversation. So we public drinking water folks sometimes have a lab already. There's a lab in Massachusetts, a commercial lab, that would be a lot closer for Rutland, Bennington County, maybe even Windham County to go send their stuff. But the northern half of the state could be well served by us if they chose to use us. I think it depends on DEC's rules and how

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I three or four years ago, this had really emerged by our Yes. School. Public works. Right.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: I remember the conversation.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you for joining us this morning.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We could maybe have you back to talk more about PFAS and water and soil. Yeah. Save that for another year. It's going away.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I'm glad

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: it wasn't waste of time to bring it on then. Thanks.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Have a continued good travel. You, sir.

[Cheryl Achilles, Director, Vermont Agriculture and Environmental Laboratory]: Thank you, have a good day.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay,

[Rep. John O'Brien]: so

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I don't know whether we have anybody else who could testify on May, Patricia.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: This afternoon, if we do.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, this afternoon, and then, yeah, so I'm thinking that we may be able to move ahead next week with some markup, and well, vote by the end of the week, yeah, next week before we head out for the break. So be thinking about, and I know we've had several issues raised, things we might be able to fix, just be thinking about those and anything else you think might want to be looked at in the chat. I just

[Rep. John O'Brien]: wondered procedurally why this bill is getting a lot of attention. I mean, think we all agree with it, but it's just interesting how it just barely came up, and now we spent a bunch of time on testimony.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: It seemed like something that we could do and agree on and that we could get done before the break. And we had the witnesses. It hasn't always been easy to get people to respond to requests. So I, on that note, appreciate migrant justice for being available today to talk about another bill. And Will, do you want to join us at the table?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: Yeah, actually, my colleague, is going

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: to get us started. Okay, all right. Can offer you two chairs if you want to both be here too. However you want to do it. And do either of you want to share your screens?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: I think not. We did provide one PDF to the committee late, but did that get uploaded? Okay. Thank

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: you so much. You're welcome.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: Yeah, committee members are welcome to pull up a two pager that will provide some additional background to our testimony. So

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: this is gonna be on h four zero three, and it's the farm worker bill. It has three sections, essentially minimum wage for agriculture workers, removing the exemption that's in existing law, similarly for overtime. And then there was a third section on a housing survey, essentially. So why don't we go ahead? I can turn it over to you, and thank you both for coming in.

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: Thank you. Try to be brief and then leave some time for for Will to also get into some of the details and some recommendations. My name is Abert Llunda, and I'm an organizer with American Justice. I've been organizing with Margaret Justice for the past thirteen years or so. Communication has been a long time. And I found that time, part of my, you know, my my experience has been developing relationship and close ties with the community that we're trying to protect through this bill, you know, the migrant farm workers, milking cows, and and their farms in Newmont. And, you know, through the time that I've been here, I've also seen a a different array array of issues or different, you know, issues that are happening in in the dairy industry. And I think throughout the years as migrant justice come into the state house, we provided ample testimony and examples of those issues. You know? And I'll I'll mention some, and and, you know, we can talk a little bit more about that. You know? But, you know, workers, for example, are are working, you know, long hours, sixty to eighty hours per week, and, you know, they're doing the they're doing it without an overtime pay. They're doing it without a minimum wage. So people are, you know, workers are excluded from from from these laws. And, you know, one of the things that we've seen is that workers are living in deplorable housing conditions, living with pests such as bed bugs, mice, rats, many other issues. People sharing a room between three workers. Know, sometimes there's cracked windows, cracked walls. Sometimes there's no proper heating systems. There's no sometimes there's no running water. You know, recently, we were at a farm where, you know, there's no, like, hot water for people to, like, shower or to, like, wash their hands. And we're talking about, like, the winter. You know, it's been a really cold winter. You know, people facing discrimination, sexual harassment, many other issues that are happening on their farms. And a lot of these issues sometimes don't, you know, make it to the house or don't make it to, like, you know, people's ears because people are afraid of speaking up. People are afraid of retaliation and, you know, shedding light on some of these conditions. And I think it's important for us to recognize that these issues are not new. These issues have existed for a very long time, decades and decades ago, and and the lack of protections and exclusions, you know, for the people that, you know, put food on our table, that are in the cows that are making sure that their industry doesn't collapse. You know, as I mentioned, go back a long time ago, and these exclusions are based on discrimination and, you know, frankly, racism, you know. And so I think it's important for us to to look at it from that point of view as well. You know, it's a workforce issue, but also it's, you know, an issue, you know, based on discrimination or racism, you know, that that goes back to, you know, the dark time of history of this country. Throughout the years, you know, as I've been working with migrant justice, you know, we pushed for legislation, we pushed for changes, I think Vermont has done a good job, you know, passing different legislations to protect their community, their communities. And we've seen, you know, when when legislation is is crafted the the right way, when legislation is, you know, inclusive of the voices of of the people that are most affected, you know, when it it's designed to protect, you know you know, the most affected communities, legislation can have a a really positive impact in the life of of the people that we're trying to protect. We've seen that with the driver license campaign. We've seen that with the Bernie Partial Policing Policy. We've seen that, you know, with other other legislation that have passed. And so, you know, as we try to work on this bill, we need to ensure, you know, that that we that that's our goal and that is our aim, you know, to to protect our communities, to ensure that we don't have, you know, two different classes of workers, workers that are earning overtime pay after forty hours, and then another group of workers that are earning overtime pay after sixty hours. And there's examples of other states have, you know, passed legislation and know, facing different phases. So he started 60, then getting down to 40. So I think, you know, we think about creating legislation that should be part of our goal, you know, to look for for, you know, that are gonna benefit workers. We don't want workers, you know, working sixty, eighty hours a week without, you know, receiving what they deserve. And last thing I I think I'll mention is that, that is my new job as organizer throughout the years with migrant justice. You know, one of the things that I do and and a lot of my colleagues do is to visit farms, talk to workers, and try to organize and and empower our community to, you know, speak up and and, you know, raise our collective voice to try to demand some of those changes. And, you know, we've organized on some farms and, you know, we've been successful, you know, but we can do it on every single farm. And therefore, you know, we we need clear legislation, you know, that ensures that workers are gonna be, you know, receiving the minimum wage, that workers are gonna be receiving, you know, over overtime pay, you know, that workers' voice is gonna be taken into account when people are consulting about, okay, what is your housing conditions? You know, what do they look like? You know, not just sending a survey to the farmer, you know, for the farmer to fill out. We we really need to ensure that workers' voices are included, you know, on whatever we're trying to do. You know, as I mentioned, if if if we don't take that into account, then, you know, we're gonna create something just to, you know, feel good or or look good in paper. But at the end of the day, if there's no, like, clear enforcement mechanisms, nothing is gonna work. You know? It's just gonna be there sort of for for show. And so I think, you know, I really encourage you guys to think about it from that perspective. Don't approach it from, like, a scarcity scarcity point of mind or point of view where, okay. But what's gonna happen to the farms? What's gonna happen to, you know, to to farmers? Our farm is gonna shut down. You know, farms have been open for, you know, really long time, and that, you know, that exclusion from the law has affected our community from a a really long time as well. So I think it's time to do the right thing. It's time to end those exclusions to ensure that the people are food and put on our table, are being treated with dignity, with respect, and and, you know, to ensure that Vermont is, you know, one of the states that is leading, you know, in in these issues. I won't take much time, and I'll pass it to me, colleague Bill.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you. Do we pause and see if we've got any questions? Representative Basil?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: Yeah, I'd like to hear a little bit more in terms of the some of the housing conditions that you described sound really deplorable. And I'm wondering, like, just if you were going to make a generalization, how much of the worker housing would you describe as sub standard and how much of it is okay? I'm hoping some of it is okay.

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: Yeah. And I think we'll we'll get a little bit into that. Okay. My question is answered too. Okay.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: That's fine. We I can wait.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Representative O'Brien.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Just along those same lines, it's generally the fire marshal who inspects rental housing, right? And so is it much different with agricultural housing, agricultural worker housing?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: Yeah. So from the switch, maybe three years ago or four years ago, it used to be municipal health inspectors, then it was brought under the purview of the Division of Fire Safety. Since that switch, we aren't aware of the fire marshal ever having inspected farm worker housing.

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: And

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: we know this bill would seek to create sort of a pathway of complaints to get to the fire marshal, but we have yet to see that be an effective method of enforcement.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: So there's no I mean, even municipalities, there's really no inspection at all of farm worker housing in the state of Vermont? As a practical matter.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Right, yeah. Okay.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Other questions? And this may be something that you get into too, but just to give us a little bit of an understanding of how a big your reach is and you indicated that you're not able to get onto all farms and the organizing work that you do to help us get a sense of how many of agricultural workers might be already getting minimum wage. I think that's one of the things that we're curious about. Do you have any insight into that?

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: We have some sort of results that we can share, you know, but outside of the the meal with dignity program, you know, I think there's a a lot of workers, a good percentage of the workers that that we visit that are not receiving the the minimum wage. Pretty much the majority of the state that are getting the minimum wage. So, know, the new program ensures that new farms are up to compliance, but outside of that, you know, farms can decide on on what they they choose to pay. And in our experience, it's very little, the amount of workers are actually getting you.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: I said 13%. 13%,

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: okay. If there are any other questions, why don't we go ahead and let you speak then?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun]: So so what what would you say is the usual wage?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: So we see a a median wage for immigrant dairy workers of $11.67 an hour from a 2024 survey.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I'll speak

[Rep. John O'Brien]: a little more to that,

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: but at that time, it was $2 an

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: hour below the minimum wage. Just

[Rep. John O'Brien]: to follow-up on that, since housing is often factored into that wage too, a is sort of a consensus within the dairy farming community of how much that costs the dairy farm, so how much should come out of that presumable minimum wage? Or is it all over the map?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: So generally, our experience, the workers are not seeing room and board deductions from their paychecks. There might be a conceptual understanding that, yeah, I'm gonna pay them this amount because they're getting free housing.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: But

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: there's a labor contract where that is negotiated or where that's being made apparent.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: Can I just ask a great question on H2A? That's very specified, right, as far as

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: What we pay per hour.

[Rep. John O'Brien]: And housing too,

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: Yeah, because it's a federal program. Yeah, price.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Does your work involve working with seasonal farm workers as well as dairy farmers?

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: You know, there's no seasonal work on dairy farms. You know, we do very sometimes contact with like very, you know, happy workers, but it's like very minimal.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: For Jed Lipsky.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah. And I'm going back to housing. We've had, I I think it was the housing conservation boards that had a group that was working on farm worker housing, providing funding, certain grants up to a certain amount for upgrades. And most of them had to do with security, with hygiene, with privacy. I mean, they had a fairly high standard. And I think they checked to make sure when these grants were completed that those standards were met. Are you aware of any farms where those projects have taken place? And I would assume there were some inspections too on in those cases. Yeah. And maybe it's a small percentage of the overall farm worker housing staff.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: It is a relatively small percentage. There are sort of two programs that have come out of those investments into VHCb. One is the farm worker housing repair program, and another is investment in housing replacement. Both are self selective. They require the farm employer to apply for the funds, and it's a relatively small percentage. So the investments have been very good, but haven't resulted in the systemic change for the industry. The replacement programs, the new houses that are being built through that, and that is The state funding is always a piece of that puzzle, but never all of it. And we've been involved in bringing together other funding sources to make those projects happen. Those have resulted in very high quality new houses going up. The replacement programs, those are for specific elements. So, it's a roof repair or it's new windows, and generally there is an inspection portion of that. It doesn't necessarily mean that beyond the elements that are being replaced, that the rest of the housing is high quality. They're looking to make sure that there aren't any sort of glaring red flags anywhere else.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Representative Bartholomew? I was just looking through the survey results that you provided. I'm actually having trouble finding anything here that isn't alarming. The one thing that really jumped out at me, I'm just wondering if you think this is accurate, where I suffered an accident or injury, seventy seven percent. Is that a real number, you think? Seventy seven percent injured on the job.

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: Yeah. That is a reality. People are working with, how do you count animals, machinery, you you're working with chemicals, lack of protective equipment, personal protective equipment. So I think injuries and accidents are, like, a very common thing that happens on on their farms. Yeah.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: And I'll I'll I'll share

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: with the community

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: assistant another survey from 2020, which focused on health and safety issues that goes into more detail, sort of breaking down what that seventy seven percent would look like and giving more percentages on what Abel is talking about, what's the result of injuries from animals, from every machinery, from chemical exposure. So hopefully that can get loaded onto the community page and you can take a look at the more disaggregated health and safety data.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I'm gonna let you, Will, say what you had to say. So if you Yeah, fantastic.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: So yeah, thank you, members of the committee. Again, Will Lambeck testifying with Migrant Justice, a Vermont based human rights organization founded and led by women's farm workers. You heard Abel talk about our fifteen year plus history advocating for expanded rights and improving conditions for an immigrant farm worker community. And as many of the committee members know, in 2018, migrant justice created the Milk with Dignity program, a worker driven human rights initiative supporting farms and farm workers through private supply chain agreements with dairy corporations. And I'll come back to talk about that a little bit more. So we want to focus our testimony on conditions experienced by immigrant workers on the state's dairy farms. And we know that this isn't representative of the entire agricultural workforce in the state, but in large part, immigrant dairy workers are sustaining the state's agricultural economy. As you know, Vermont's dairy industry accounts for the majority of agricultural income in the state, and farms employing immigrant workers account for the vast majority of dairy production in the state. We estimate that immigrant workers account for about 80% of hired non family employees in the dairy industry. That's about 1,000 workers on farms around Vermont. 80%. Yeah. And that percentage is higher in the lowest paid roles of milker, pusher, feeder, calf care, things like that. And then when you look at other roles, mechanic, herdsman or herdsmanager, those are less likely to employ workers. But basically, if you go into any dairy barn or milk parlor in the state, if that farm is large enough to have non family workers, if they're hiring labor, chances are they're hiring workers. So, what we see in this workforce is what

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: we would call a tale

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: of two dairy industries. In farms in the Milk with Dignity program, we're seeing great strides being made. But outside the program, workers are laboring long hours for low pay and unsafe and discriminatory working conditions and living in inadequate and sometimes downright inhumane housing. So, you have access to this survey. This was conducted in 2024 with the support of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst Labor Center. We developed a comprehensive questionnaire covering wages, hours, health and safety, housing, and treatment on the farms The 2024, current and former dairy workers, this was a participatory action research model, fanned out across Vermont, conducting hour long surveys with two twelve workers in their homes, on the farm, at community assemblies. And so, I'll just go through briefly some of the results. You also have access to them there. Again, with wages, 87% making below the minimum wage. A median wage of $11.67 which was at the time $2 an hour below the state's minimum wage. Approximately one in five have had wages illegally withheld, and one in three do not receive pay stubs. On hours, half of respondents work twelve hours a day or more, with a quarter of them working seven days a week, so no day off. Three quarters don't receive paid holidays, 61 don't receive paid vacations, and over half don't receive paid sick leave, despite Vermont's law requiring that to happen. One in four workers don't have eight hours of consecutive rest during the day. So you're working split shifts throughout the day that don't provide you with the ability to have a full night's sleep. And one in five report that they can't take time off if sick or injured. We saw this particularly during the COVID pandemic, just on farms around the state, workers feel forced to work while sick with COVID. Discriminatory conditions are widespread. 53 of workers report experiencing discrimination in the workplace, with most reporting discrimination based on language or country of origin. Housing, this goes back to your question, representative, eighty two percent of workers reported issues with employer provided housing. And Nabelle mentioned some of these safety concerns, pest infestations, mold, broken appliances and fixtures, insufficient heating insulation, workers sharing beds or sleeping in common spaces due to overcrowding. And then to the health and safety, you mentioned, yeah, over three quarters of respondents have suffered a work related illness or injury, and the common dangers are being struck or crushed by cows, falling on slippery floors, exposure to chemicals resulting in broken bones, sprains, rashes, and Two thirds of workers reported not receiving training from an employer supervisor when they started their job, and over half said that they don't have access to a first aid kit, while the majority also lack access to personal protective equipment such as masks, goggles, and eyewash stations. So while shocking, these conditions are not new. They show continuity with a similar survey conducted in 2014 across most metrics. And then there was also an additional 2020 survey, which I've now shared with you and is also available on our website, that focused on health and safety conditions. And these are the most comprehensive and methodologically sound data on labor conditions in the dairy industry in Vermont, and they demonstrate the critical role of farm worker led interventions like the Milk with Dignity program, because you see that without the essential elements of this program, the dairy industry remains unwilling to provide the dignified working and living conditions that farm workers deserve. So, I know we're short on time. I wanted to speak more about the Milk with Dignity program in detail. I'll maybe come back to that. But in essence, this is a program created by workers that creates a collaborative solution to all these problems that you're hearing about. Supply chain agreements with the companies buying from the farms that require their suppliers to apply worker authored code of conduct, standards created by workers, and empowers a third party auditor, the Milk with Dignity Standards Council, to objectively monitor farms compliance with the standards in that code. It's just really transformed conditions on about 20% of farms or 20% of the

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: dairy industry in the state. Maybe since we are a little short on hand, we could plan to have you come back at some point later in the session to give us an update on that program. That'd be fantastic. Which I understand is largely driven by a buyer essentially, whether it's Benninger's, or to say their name, or someone else who is willing to participate. We

[Rep. John O'Brien]: have 400 some dairy farms in the state. How many have signed up for the Dairy Redundancy?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: There are, right now, 53 farms that are enrolled in the program, the Milk with Dignity program. By volume production or mass, I guess, we're talking hundredweight, it's about 20% of Vermont's dairy industry by volume. Are those conventional dairies? They are conventional, with the exception that there is now one organic farm that is enrolled through a new supply chain agreement from an emerging brand called Vermont Way Foods, which is launching a cheese line called Cheese with Dignity that is sourcing from an organic farm in Addison County.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah. I guess my with

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt]: an organic farm, I'm assuming there are some sort of standards for farm employees as well.

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: There are not. Yes, our organic standards do not include standards for labor conditions. And while organic farms are less likely to employ non family workers because their sizes are generally smaller, those that do employ non family workers often have very comparable labor conditions to conventional farms in the state. And again, it would be a myth, I think, think, Oh, organic farmers must be better employers than conventional dairies.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I'm sure if any questions to ask, just look into the clock, because it could take a while to answer. I guess, just quickly, was the survey that you did in 2024 consistent with other information we might have from other dairy states or other states that did similar research?

[Will Lambek, Migrant Justice]: Yeah, it is the most comparable. This is now a couple years old, but there was a report out of New York State called Milked, that somewhat similar methodology, widespread interviews with farm workers in New York State showed similar conditions across the lake.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I'll just add, and then I'll let Jed have the final question. Just going back to your point of there's an economic question here, but there's also a symbolic issue. And whether people are currently getting a minimum wage or not, having the exclusion and exemption written to law is something that we should be thinking about, I think. So Jed? Thank you, Chairman. You know, this is such a

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: This isn't the first time, I believe, I've seen these results, but we have a member who's not in the room who's participating in a program in a different building, a large KFO But I think this committee and you would benefit from having a full committee members, you know, present This missing member is actually a large dairy farmer, thoughtful, and I think his input and interaction with you would would not be hostile, but I think would make for a more comprehensive understanding. So if there was ever an opportunity later in the I think that- In another day.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I think these gentlemen know representative Nelson and I would certainly encourage them to speak offline. Okay. Yeah. And we'll have a chance to discuss this topic certainly more. Yeah. I

[Abel Luna, Organizer, Migrant Justice]: was just saying that you know, we say we we do visits to a lot of farms in in the state of Vermont, you know, that includes a a lot of farms sometimes, you know, some farms, and conditions are basically the same outside of the mobility program. Whether you're a small farm or a large farm, you have, you know, five workers or 30 workers, conditions are very similar. And I think we we you know, going back to, like, you know, why are we here and sort of, like, having you guys having an opportunity to actually, you know, write something in legislation that's gonna, you know, change the the life of workers. I think it's gonna be very meaningful. And, yeah, I really encourage you guys to, like, you know, look at this issue with, you know, with the the main point of view or, you know, to think about the workers that are sustaining the industry, know, participating or making sure that, you know, Vermont's economy stays afloat as well. And, yeah, if you guys need any, like, more, you know, conversations or confused on something, I think it's important to talk to, you know, organizations that are, you know, working directly with with with the community that is that is most impacted. Think usually, we go and ask, you know, a partner if we're gonna hear a different story. Right? And that could be the case. And so, yeah, we're here to provide any sort of, like, you know, insight, perspective or education on, you know, what you guys are, you know, needing. Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Appreciate Yeah. Your both coming in this morning and we'll So committee will I think we'll stop now just because we're into lunch, but we can debrief a little bit on this after you know, when we come back. I know that there's concern about bad weather this afternoon. It doesn't look like the blizzard has