Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: We're good to go.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: Okay, so thank you, Abby White. I'm

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: one of

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: the co chairs of the Vermont Housing and Conservation Coalition. And also I work for the Vermont Land Trust. So thank you for the opportunity to come and speak with you today about the work of the coalition. We are a coalition that is almost forty years old that consists of roughly 50 organizations throughout the state that focus on land conservation and affordable housing and historic preservation. And these are the organizations that put the VHCb dollars to work in communities all over the state. We're here to talk to you today about how those VHCb dollars are protecting farmland and also helping farms thrive. So our ask this year for the general assembly is to support the governor's proposed budget of full funding for VHCb at $37,600,000 And again, those funds are used to support perpetually affordable housing and also land conservation. There's a few other programs that VHCb supports, including the Farm and Forest Viability Program. Travis Marcotte is here to talk about that. So there's many ways that these dollars are put to work, but what we like to say is that when housing and conservation invested at the same time, it's communities that thrive. So today I'm joined by five Vermonters who are gonna tell you their story. The first is Guy McGuire with the South Harold Land Trust. We will also at the same time hear from Kathleen Swanson, a resident of South Hero. They're going to talk about a farm project in South Hero. Kathleen is on Zoom. Then we will hear from Mark Gattel from West Pollet, Rosalie Williams from Bakersfield, and finally, Travis Marcotte with the Intervail. Would you like us to go around and introduce ourselves?

[Speaker 0]: Well, I'm gonna give everybody the opportunity. I don't wanna force anybody to Okay. Say who they are, but anybody who would like to let us know that they're here. Yeah. I'll start here.

[Jack Owen (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Okay. Hi. I'm Jack Owen with

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: the Shipman Housing Trust. I'm here for House of Conservation Ed. It's I came to someone who's like, just love hearing about what's going on

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: in farm world. Mhmm. Great.

[Al Karnatz (Vermont Land Trust) — time-bound override]: And I'm Ala Carnetsch with the Vermont Land Trust. I do the farmland projects in Champaign Valley.

[Nancy Patch (co-founder, Cold Hollow to Canada) — time-bound override]: I'm Nancy Patch. I'm co founder of Cold Poly Canada, which is a small conservation partnership in the Northern Green Mountains and foothills of Champaign Foothills. I'm Rose Lee Williams, I'm a dairy fabric, organic dairy, an organic farmer, we'll just say. From Bakersfield.

[Tucker Malone (Vermont Land Trust) — time-bound override]: Tucker Malone, I work for Vermont Land Trust and do farm projects in Franklin County and I'm personally with her project.

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: I'm Travis Marco. I am the executive director of the Intervill Center and live in Fletcher.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: My name is Mark Guzzell.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: I'm one of the lucky farmers that these guys have all helped. I'm a full time police and full time farmer.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: They work about twenty three hours a day, but I'm

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: happy to be here. Believe this is great. Hi

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: everyone, Mollie McClintock. I'm the advocate coordinator at BHCB. So I have the honor to be writing a bunch of these really awesome projects. So happy to be here.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: John O'Brien again from South Carolina Trust.

[Donald Campbell (Vermont Land Trust)]: I'm Don Kebel, I'm with the Vermont Land Trust. I do farm projects in Bennington, Windham and Windsor County. I'm also Mark's chauffeur today because he was on call until three in the morning

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: and it didn't seem safe to have

[Donald Campbell (Vermont Land Trust)]: him drive himself up here.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Been counting this pretty serious copy today. That's how much the sweets was for you guys to hear our stories and

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: realize that that's what Donald does. That's what the line of trust has done for my

[Speaker 0]: family, is those extra little things like driving together.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: That's gonna be so support.

[Speaker 0]: Representative Brown, you had a hand up.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: Yeah, just Abby, before we get going, when you

[Jack Owen (Champlain Housing Trust)]: say they asked this 37,600,000.0 The governors recommend, can you just describe to us and the public that formula is reached? Because we often hear like, oh, BHCb is underfunded this year, at 22 or something. So how do

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: you get to full funding?

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: So BHCb is funded primarily through the property transfer tax and receives 50% of the revenue from that property transfer tax. And the whole rationale behind that is that as property values rise, as we've been seeing, we're able to collect more revenue to support affordability because conservation and perpetual affordable housing is what can offset what we hope will offset the rising cost of real estate and continue to make things affordable for at least some in Vermont. And so this year we are fully funded at that statutory share. You might hear us say some years that we're not because you all, as you know, have the opportunity to withstand what you might see in statute. And so there are many years in a row where the HCV dollars have been the appropriation and not withstood.

[Speaker 0]: You had at least so it was not sound withstood, right?

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: Correct. It was withstood.

[Speaker 0]: It was withstood. Well, let's see if we can go two years in a row with that.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: Two years in a row. And there's a small part in the capital bill that also supports clean water funding that conservation organizations deploy through it to to do water watershed restoration on on conserved lands.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Richard Nelson. What about the prime ag land fees if someone develops on prime ag land? I I heard it's like

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: a three to one. I

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: don't know. You're talking about the mitigation fund Yeah. For act two fifteen?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Does that go to your group? And is that money a 100% delegated to conserving partners?

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: That money, the for the ag mitigation goes to VHCb. I don't know exactly what the percentage in terms of how much of that, where that kind of ends up, but VHCb would be best able to answer. Although we may have somebody from the audience who would like to say something about that.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: I'm on the Act of 50 Commission in Addison County, so I'm a little more familiar with some of that. But yeah, all that those mitigation monies go to the HP and they're trying to be spent within that district on conservation of farmland within that district. If there's no project at hand, they can go beyond that district. But that's their rationale.

[Speaker 0]: It's like if there's a

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: development in Chittenden County, let's keep that money in Chittenden County and use it for a project. So they'll allocate it to various projects within that district if they can. Yep.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: Okay. So with that, I think we'll start with Guy McGuire and Kathleen, and then we will go to Mark after that. Okay. Great.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: You're up.

[Donald Campbell (Vermont Land Trust)]: Hi,

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: everyone. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor to be here today to talk with you all. My name is Guy McGuire, and I'm the executive director of South Hero Land Trust. And I'm gonna talk a little bit today about the work that we do and the work that DHCB allows us to do with all of our partners. We started in 1997 with a project to conserve Allen Home Farm, which is the state's oldest apple orchard. And we worked with Vermont Land Trust on that project, and we worked with Vermont Land Trust and other conservation partners on all of our projects since then. And that's because conservation has so many co benefits. It does so many things for our small town, and I know it does for small towns all across Vermont. Since 1997, we've conserved about 2,000 acres of land. We've protected about a mile of shoreline, built a couple miles of trails. And we've done it as one of the tools in our toolbox to do farm to school education, to get kids out on farms. We we also do farm viability work, including we help start the farmers market because, you know and and so conservation for us is one of those tools, and we wouldn't do it if it didn't help our community. We're not a statewide org. You know, we're we're based in a very small town. We have farmers on our on our board, and and if if it if it didn't work, we wouldn't be doing it. And we're very lucky in South York to have a lot of really amazing farms. There's Allen Home Farm. There's Snow Farm, which is the oldest winery, and it's it's still as grape winery in the whole state. There's there's, like, multigenerational farms at Island Acres and Hackett's Orchard, and you have a new generation of farmers at places like Health Hero Farm at the historic Sorbet Farm as well as the folks at Texas Meat. These farms provide so many things for the community. I could go on and on and on about what these farmers do. But they're the people that grow our food. They hold the gathering spaces. They're where people go out to meet people, to talk to people. We don't have a lot of other gathering spaces in these small towns, and so the farmers are oftentimes that place. They grow food and they and they sell as much as they can. They donate the rest to local food shelves. So our local farms are supporting food security in the area. They're providing jobs. They're helping the economy of these rural areas. I mean, they are the lifeblood of small towns. I'm sure I don't even tell you guys this. And one of the things about all those conserved farms that I mentioned that's that they all have in common is that they're all conserved. And so we've been really fortunate to work with our partners at Vermont Land Trust and with funding from the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board on all of those projects. And one thing I'd like to mention that's, I think, really important is that it's not just Vermont Housing and Conservation dollars. Like, it's not just the VHCB board money that pays for a 100% of these projects. It's almost like seed money that we then match with local fundraising dollars. We we are able to then bring in federal money. And so that, like, is such a leverage in terms of how much money we're bringing into the state to be able to do these projects. VHCV is a really huge part of that. And so I also like just to mention that my office is right across the street from the Bayview Senior Housing Center, and which was a VHCB funded project that Cathedral Square did. It was the first housing project, senior housing project in like over sixteen years in our area. And so housing and conservation can go together when we conserve the areas that need to be conserved, the really important farmland and we build out where housing need to be. And so we're so fortunate to have that partnership that we get to work together, and I see it every day in what it brings to our town. And I want to thank all of you for helping support this work in the past. It does so much, and I see the benefits of it every single day. And right now, in this past year, we worked with the Gulat families and the Swanson families to conserve 195 acres in South Euro. There was about 90 acres that came up for sale. And when you hear Guy Gulet talk about it, he's like, this was a make or break situation. If this if we lost this 90 acres, that would be the end of farming for us. We wouldn't be able to have a viable business without this land base. And so it was kind of like Hail Mary time. And they reached out to Al, and they reached out to us, and we worked together to see if conservation would work. We have farmers on our board, and so they had been through conservation before. So they talked to a guy and told him, you know, what it was gonna look like, what he's gonna have to go through, what are the pros and cons to conservation. And, thankfully, we're able to raise some money and work with these two families to conserve this farm. It's the only commercial vegetable operation in South Hero. They have a really, like, booming farm stand. They serve over 100 people a day during the high season. And they have events on the farms with a gathering space. And so the importance of this farm for our town can't be understated, can't be overstated. So that funding from VHTV was critical to making that project happen. And I know that that same story is happening in towns all across Vermont. So I just want to thank you all again for your past support of fully funding the Vermont Housing Conservation Board and hope that you'll continue to support this for going forward.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Go ahead, Reverend Nelson. Thank you.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: You have some great projects up there again. I'm I'm aware of some of them. Have you partnered with the nature conservancy, Vermont Fish and Wildlife, the Vermont Waterfowl Fund, you know, that Stamp Fund. Have you partnered with those people as well on some of your shoreline purchases? Yeah. You know Leveraging more of your dollars?

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: Right. Yeah. So we have partnered with, Trust Republic Land and Nature Conservancy, other groups on some of our projects that are more, like, for instance, the land and farm, which now has Pegasus meats was split into two and half it became Round Pond State Park. So it was a really great project where there was a huge wildlife benefit to it as well as a really huge, farming benefit, and it made sense to protect this area for, like, outdoor recreation, like hunting, fishing, hiking, and this area over here was a great farmland. So, yeah, it does leverage dollars. Our colleagues at the Lake Champlain Land Trust are the ones that do a lot more of that than us. They are more ecosystem focused, more like water quality focused. But we do also do water quality projects too with willing landowners, and we use the clean water service providers money, which is EPA money. So we do bring a lot of federal dollars to the area that we can help match with local funds. Yeah. Kathleen,

[Speaker 0]: did you wanna

[Kathleen Swanson (South Hero resident, project partner)]: I'll just chime in. So the role of our family was that two parcels came on the market the 90 acre parcel which was formerly of the Boyle farm, the Bergeron property and then a 30 acre parcel came up a few months later because it was in probate. Our role was buying it. We did some creative financing to do that, to buffer, then we worked immediately. The first we drove over to Guy and Lori Goulette's and said we're going to buy this and we want you to buy some of the property in hopes that we will conserve it together. And that was almost five years ago, it would be five years ago in April that we put this all together. So that was the role our family played and it was a big leap of faith on both sides. We ended up you know selling 37 acres to the Gillettes early on because that made his farm more competitive in the VHCb funding process. So he had more contiguous acres not knowing that we were going to get funded. At any turn it felt like it wasn't going to happen. It's very onerous and it should be processed and we survived. And here we are now with this functioning economically viable farm. It's three generations and we work very closely because he farms the land that we've conserved. I feel really great about the part that we put the pieces back together from a farm. People had bought different parcels and then it wasn't really being farmed and now those pieces are put back together and it's under the management of a good farmer. And that's where we are. And we feel honored. It was it was a it a big it was a big project, but with the help of the two land trusts and all that, we made it. And with the help of VHCb, none of this would be happening. Know, was they able for the goulettes to get some equity out of their farm to invest in their project, in their farming business and thriving business and that we can keep it a working landscape in South Hero, Vermont.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Kathleen. Thank you both for sharing that story. And I don't know whether the committee had any other questions about that project or

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: I'll set mine for a little later. Okay.

[Speaker 0]: Good. And who's next there?

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: I think you're gonna start with me now.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: It's the hot seat. I just wanna say my name is Mark Patel. Before I start, just thank you. This this is an honor to to be in this building. I was in this building, lucky enough, fifteen years ago for something else, and I never forgot the feeling and always wondered if I'd ever be back. And to be in front of you all for something that's this important. I I I just want you to know I respect you all so much and thank you for this opportunity. So I'm a farmer. You know, I'm a full time sheriff's deputy, but I'm a farmer. And, I'm a farmer because of everyone here today. My wife and I looked for a farm to purchase forever. And we had a small farm in Benson, and we wanted to move forward. We wanted to be have a productive farm, an actual farm. We could we could show our children that we could we could make a living. And it was tough. We couldn't find anything we could afford on, you know, a cop salary is not that great. Right? So we searched, we searched, we searched, and we found this blueberry farm in West Ballard, Vermont, and it was completely out of our reach, completely. We had no business buying it, but we did anyway. I'm pretty stubborn, and my wife is too. We, you know, piggybacking on Kathleen, we did some seriously creative financing to jump onto this. I fought tooth and nail. We we this property is zoned commercial, residential, industrial, and agricultural. So we were up against four other commercial offers. They were gonna develop this land. It's a 100 acres, 101 actually. Beautiful property, prime prime farmland. There is some forest. We're surrounded by slate. 100% surrounded by hence, the industrial. Yes.

[Jack Owen (Champlain Housing Trust)]: Is this Rutland or Bennington County?

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: It's Rutland County. So we're just North of Bennington County, right on the South End of Rutland County. Yeah, it's right on that line. But we are Rutland County. The Meadoway Valley is. And we picked this reason, Valley for a reason. It's beautiful. And and the soil is amazing. I know we we we had a presentation earlier about the soil and and really amazing soil in this area. So we we wanted this place pretty badly, and we went up against the commercial offers. I tell the story. I talked to that realtor for thirty days every single day. I called her. I said, hey, it's Mark from Kinder Way. Just thought I'd put a name with the phone number again every single day. And then communication stopped, obviously. Maybe some harassment charges. I don't know. But thirty days later, we received a phone call from the realtor. He said, do you still want it? And I said, we'll take it. She said, but don't you want to look at it yet? And I said, no, we'll take it. I'm good. I've been researching this farm forever. And little did she know, was there every night. My wife and I would every night for thirty days, we would drive to the farm after everybody was gone. And we would so there was a woman had passed away. They had a memorial banner on the farm stand, and I would talk to it every night. And I said, Iva, I know you don't know me. But we want to farm this land. And it sounds so crazy. But we meant it, you know, because I know what agriculture means to this state and to the young people in this state. Being in law enforcement, I see so many misplaced young adults that need something to grasp onto, and agriculture is so important. Anyway, we we ended up we we bought the farm, took everything I had financially. I'll just be honest with you. I had a $4,000 a month mortgage that I could not afford. Right? Day one of blueberry season, which was three days after we closed, I met that guy right there. Donald Campbell came to my farm stand, and I'd heard about him. I I I also purchased this farm knowing that I was I was gonna get into a program with the Vermont Land Trust and the housing the housing coalition. I I had heard about it, and I said this is this is what this farm needs is conservation. So I don't know if I willed him to come to the stand, but he showed up. And I I I I I didn't know who you were. And I saw him amongst all these people. And I said I you know, he introduced himself some money to Donald Campbell. And I said, I've been waiting for you. And I said, I'm in. And he didn't even give me a He didn't even sell it. I said, I'm in. And we've been partners ever since. And I will tell you, this is a difficult journey. I had an idea that this was going be quick, I and was going to be saved, and we were going to make a living on the farm. Two and a half years later, I ran out of money. I'm going be honest with you. My wife and I, we were done. We had expended everything we had. We'd sold everything that we had. For three and a half almost three to two and a half years, I lived on ramen and blueberries. The whole family did. And we cut every corner we could to stay alive because we believed in what we were doing. And October 31, we closed. I had not much left to my name, and that closing was was lucrative enough to to make my $4,000 a month monthly payment to my mortgage company, $850. And that made all the difference. And I know it's we talk about money and why is it money? Money money was extremely important to us as my family. That difference of $3,200 a month was our living, you know, and the farm at that point was making about we were netting about $30,000 a year in blueberries, not even close to paying the mortgage. Right? So, you know, long story short, without the Vermont Land Trust or the Vermont Housing Coalition, we we wouldn't be farming. And that farm would not be a farm. It would be a storage facility, and that's what it was proposed to be. And that blueberry farm, they're 45 year old bushes. That has been in operation as a UPIC berry farm for forty five years. Generations have come there. I've talked to hundreds of people in the last two and half years of of how they grew up there. They picked there when they were a kid or they went there with their grandmother and now they bring their grandkids to this farm and they pick blueberries. To me, that's powerful, right? Because that's how we're going to get people back into agriculture is get that connection and that family connection and that land connection and the agriculture connection. I live right on the New York border, and I petitioned because I didn't have a welcome to Vermont sign. I couldn't believe it. So when people enter my farm, they come pick lures, they said, Oh, these berries, I just wish they were Vermont berries. So I put it I got a welcome to Vermont sign. Right? It's important. People will travel to experience the Vermont agriculture, not just the tourism part of it. I was snowed for a long time, too. I thought we were just skiing and come maple syrup. But it's agriculture. And we're committed. We're committed at my farm, and we're committed with these guys. And I am indebted every day and grateful to you guys for allowing this budget for these organizations to allow a guy like me to live a dream and pass it on to my children. And even if my kids don't want, I have four children. My youngest is eight. We talked about this earlier, where three of my kids have their own lives. They're doing their things. My eight year old, he's my guy. Right? He's going to run the farm. But even if he doesn't, with the way this is designed and this organization and and this this conservation of this farm, even when I'm gone and my kids don't want it anymore, it still remains a farm. And we can still have a young family move in and afford a $380,000 farm that makes $60,000 a year right off the bat. And to me, that's what this program is about. And that's why I'm here today. And that's why I'm so passionate. As you can see, I'm passionate. But I'm very passionate about this because we need this in Vermont. We have to get families back into these farms and create the generational farming ourselves. And anyway, I could go on, but I really appreciate you.

[Speaker 0]: Representative Lipsky.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Mark, thank you for your testimony. I just when you first sat down and talked about the first time you came in the State House, one of your neighbors is a not a constituent of mine, but a friend, Gabe Russo. He's a timber harvester Yep. In Paul. And he came to visit with the governor and with our committee.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk) — time-bound override]: He came up here, and I get texts from him for the last year how he still hasn't recovered emotionally. It's powerful. How powerful it is. I said that's why most of us are here. It's true. It just reeks of responsibility and history and drama. So I really got what you were saying. Thank you. But you you brought up the the legacy farming, and with Donald here, this question may go beyond you. But we deal with the notion with other bills that careful permit conservation of 30 by thirty and fifty by 50, which originally left out farmland, land, etcetera, cropland.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: But is a conservation easement on your property or other Vermont land trusts? I know because I've actively managed some woodlots that are under a conservation easement of Vermont Land Trust. Are they considered as permanently, quote, conserved land in that formula for the 30 by 30?

[Donald Campbell (Vermont Land Trust)]: I think that's right, Abby.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Been just through the negotiations on that. I know you're permanently conserved, but I'm not quite sure where they've landed on before No, it's not.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: So you're asking about the

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: land trust lands that are.

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: Yes. Any lands that are properly concerned with the conservation easement do count towards the inventory of where we are with our our concerned land base in Vermont. I think we're up around like 27,000 acres. Yeah.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: That was a big selling point for me. Well, that's permanent. That's I love that word. It's important. It's very important. And and like I said, I'm I'm only here for a short time. Right? My kids are only here for a short time. But that word permanent. We talked about it in other room. It's important. Right? And we have to make sure that that does not become a storage facility. Right? We need farmland. And and that word, permanent. Thank you for bringing that up. Because it it was it sold me. It sold me.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Just anecdotally, I wish a bunch of my friends unloaded a cattle trailer in West Pollock back in 1976, and we rode horses all up over Meade Valley, man. Can be Yeah. Four corners up It's beautiful, man. Dog lead. Yeah.

[Donald Campbell (Vermont Land Trust)]: I would've loved

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: to have been with you.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: All the way to the Connecticut River and raised on what got put up here. I I love it. That was

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: It's special. And and if we don't keep it special, where are we? Right? And how do how do we we tell those stories? And you can go there today, and you can see the same mountains, and you say, yeah, I was there. So I think that's the fine line we travel. Have yeah, thank you for mentioning it. It is a beautiful area. Fought very, very hard to be there, and it's worth every minute. And we've talked about

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: the agricultural value, but that Slate Valley is one of the most unique and tiniest geological formations in North America. So you need to understand for colored slate for roofing, the English that it

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: is Colored slate capital of the world. You got it. That is. Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: I'll leave it there for Bartholomew. Sir.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: Thank you for your passion and story. I'm just curious. When you acquired the property, how did you manage to compete against the industrial commercial?

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: You know, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm going to have to go spiritual on that because they're really you can't you on paper, I'm bad investment, my friend.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: Right?

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Yeah. And I'm going to say, I do believe that

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Both cow spills.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Yeah, exactly. I was a dairyman back twenty years ago. Yes. But I accounted to my wife. My wife is extremely powerful in her mind, and she was dead set that we were going to live there and we were going to be blueberry farmers. And having the conversations with that picture of Iva Liebig after her passing, I believe it mattered. I still live in that house with all the Iva's things. We bought it furnished, unseen, actually. I said, I'll take it all. I use her dishes. We have her strawberry plates. I talk to Iva. I sit in her chair and sit by her fireplace. I absolutely believe that had something to do with it. Yeah. Thank you for asking.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Is that impossible?

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: Yeah, when you were describing your story, you talked about how you were just about going under and your mortgage was $4,000 a month, and then you were saved and then it was $8.50. But I'm wondering if you could just fill in a few details.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Yeah, kind of jumped.

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: Assuming that's where the

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Yeah. So basically what the finances do, right, with that money that you all are talking about and that comes from this agreement, it goes right to our mortgage. So we had a balance of over $500,000 left in our we paid a premium of almost $800,000 for this house. Yep. For a farm. How and that makes $30,000 a year at that point. A 100 acres. You feel me? Like, I'm a bad I'm a bad investment guy. Right? They pay industrial price. Absolutely. Absolutely. Once that was done, when Donald and I talked, we had numbers in mind. And I will tell you, I didn't argue with Donald at all. I actually told him, I said, give me more. Give me more conservation. I said, I'll sign anywhere. Give me more deductibles. Give me more. I want this program to be an example of how we can show that we can save this farm, be lucrative, but actually bail me out. So what it does was there was a there at closing, it was almost a $400,000 check. And that went right to my bank of Burlington and went right towards the mortgage. So we refi it at that point for a $109,000 loan, went down to $850 a month, is affordable for us. And we can farm.

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: And then all of your land is under conservation or some percentage

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: of We have like the little piece around us, right? Like the house, it's all part of the conservation

[Donald Campbell (Vermont Land Trust)]: sort of complex. There's the future farm labor house, right? So there's the ability to build future farm labor housing if it's needed. Yeah.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Which is something Donald talked to me about, which is great. See, wouldn't have even thought of that. But in the blueberry business, talked earlier, Greg, right? There's 5,000 bushes that you have to pick by hand. And it's my wife and I, and it's really tough. So is farm labor in the future? Absolutely, if we can justify it. And the farm labor housing is incentive, but with permission. He wrote that in. And so there's all these things that I didn't even know about because I was wanting the most money, because that's where my thought process was. But having this organization and having Donald step me through the process was a great addition. And for our future, it will help immensely.

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: Yeah.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: The guidance, the guidance was was it's more than just the money. I don't wanna focus on that. But when I say bail me out, the the money bailed me out. But Donald made it he just made it better. He made the farm better, and and he made us able to farm. You know, it's a big deal right now to be able to farm and be successful. You you know, you're familiar. Yeah. You wanna? I think

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: you need a round number one.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Hey. Hey. And Hey.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: It's the building. Thank

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: you guys. Thank you all. Thank Thanks, Larry.

[Guy McGuire (Executive Director, South Hero Land Trust)]: I can follow.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: You can tell I work with kids.

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: My name is Rosalie Williams, and I am a farmer.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: I grew up in Bakersfield. Been there for almost seventy years. I was about to Well, let me back up. Listening to him talk about his story, it reminded me of a story of my own. I grew up in a community where there used to be a lot of farms, but now there isn't in Bakersfield. I grew up in the mountains of Cold Hollow. When my son joined the military, Lance Corporal Lucas James Williams, he said to me, he says, mom, do you know what you could do with this farm? And I go, sell it? And he goes, no. He says, when I get out of the military, I want to bring some of my brothers and sisters. Making a long story a little shorter, a farm where I am, I've been there Well, I grew up on the other farm, and then I moved to a farm about two miles away. And I gave my old farm to my daughter for $10 because it was given to me through growing up on the farm. Out of 37 nieces and nephews, I was the only one that worked on the farm with oxen and hornet. No running water and an outhouse with four holes.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: My knees.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: So anyway, I always had that in the back of my mind. I wanted to be able to have a farm where Lucas could bring his military friends. Because out here in California, mom, they don't farm like we do. Anyway, I know I've never been out there. But when this farm came up because of a friend, his name is his name was and is is Levi Joyle Junior. My grandmother delivered him and his brother in the house that burnt in 2020, And he wanted me to have it. I guess years ago in the I forgot what year it was anyway. His dad used to own the farm that I gave my daughter and the farm that his dad had. Okay, I used to bond with my grandparents in. He loved how I farmed, being a single mom, three kids. Lucas was gone by that time because he was killed in 1998 as a 19 year old Marine in Kuwait. I ended up having these visions of things. And one day, Joyal said to me, he said, I would like to give you my farm. He says, It's like keeping it in the family. He was like my dad. My dad died when I was a lot younger. And I love farming. And Mr. Joyal said, If anybody can keep this farm going, it's you. He said, But you got to promise me one thing. And that was in 2009 when his brother died. He said, Don't ever develop it and don't ever sell it. You keep it a farm. And I said, That's not an issue for me. And he says and I said, Why are you doing this? I said, I gotta pay you something. And he says, nope. He said, I've seen how you run it, and I'm impressed with what you do. I even convinced him to become an organic dairy farmer back then because he didn't believe in it. I mean, he was like, Yeah, right. Okay. He was in his seventies. But anyway, I don't want to keep saying, anyway, sorry.

[Speaker 0]: You're doing great.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: He Lightning struck the house. Mr. Joel had come down with a rare leukemia, and I moved from my daughter's farm over to his farm, even though my name was on it, with him, with a contingency where he passed away and whatever, whatever. But I swore it was never going to not be a farm. And one day he said to me, he says, So tell me. He says, Tell me. I said, what? And he says, well, you kinda have a hesitation because I had to give the the attorney a dollar for the transaction, and he wouldn't take it. That's the type of man he was. And he actually I said, well, what if I can't farm? I'm getting older now. What if I can't farm? And he said he said to me, he says, well, I don't care if you raise chickens. I don't care if you raise blueberries. Sorry.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Yeah. It's alright. I'll take it.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: I don't care I don't I don't care what you do, just don't ever, ever sell it. Well, after lightning struck the house that I lived in with him, because I needed to take care of him, like he took care of me, he actually found me bleeding to death in my other barn. I was hung by the neck, paralyzed from neck down for seventeen days, had two fingers cut off and put back on. And yeah, a lot of things, dry spine. I was still able to do one of my programs that I do with children. I've been doing them since December 1998. The fire did a power surge when the lightning struck the house and went to the barn and killed about 30 of my cows. I had no insurance. Killed 11 heifers that were bred and seven calves. Mr. Joyle had insurance on the barn, but not on the animals because it was his barn. The insurance company was asking him, Well, how come you never put her on? And he said, because I hadn't got around to it. The old farmers talked like that. So anyway, they convinced him to put my name on the farm I mean, on the farm policy. What ended up happening was the insurance company dropped me because they said I had too many claims, I'd never been on the policy. So what ended up happening was I ended up having to sell the last of my herd. And as it snowballed things I almost lost the farm because of taxes. Somebody had mentioned to me, a dear friend who just died a year ago tomorrow, said to me, Have you ever considered Remote Land Trust? And I go, What's that? I said, What is that? I said, I've only heard bad things about Remote Land Trust. You sell them your land, and it's not yours anymore. You can't do anything with it. Anyway, I picked up the phone and I called somebody, and then they referred me to Tucker, who I've known since he was probably this big. Okay, his grandfather lives less than a mile and a half from me. He goes by every day to go to work, pick up his kids and whatever. Leave him off his grandparents. But anyway, Tucker came and talked with me about it, and I was very impressed with what I heard. And I said, You know, this is a way to protect the farm so that I don't lose it. And financially, I will have the funds to be able to I didn't have a mortgage. I always felt good about that. That's the only thing that I didn't I always figured I could I'm not going say it. I could stand on a street corner and maybe pay taxes, okay? But things were getting bad. I got hurt several times. I've got plates in my neck, anchors in my shoulder, fingers cut off, disability in my right hand, back injuries.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, you're a farmer.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: Yep, yep. I'm sorry, don't want to say yep, but yes, a Vermont farmer. And Tucker and them got with me and talked about what I could and would like to do, and I was very, very anxious about it because I said, You know what? This could save the farm so I can give it to my kids. I still have two daughters. I gave one the other farm that I had, which was 176 acres. And I used to milk 88 cows, I had over 100 and some odd head total on this farm. And I'm going to leave it to my daughter. She loves farming. But they all know that they're not going to farm it until I'm done with it because it's my way. It's fun to watch somebody do something, but farmers don't like to backpedal. Those are my words. If you're going to show somebody how to do it and then you end up doing it yourself, you might have done it in the first. So that's just me thinking, and she's you know, they come and help me if I need it, you know, if I need something with the haying or fence building or whatever. But through my son's memorial, I fight off kids because I'm on my third generation of students and kids and whatever through my son's memorial. They fight to come to help me. They want to hunt on my land. They want to be a part of building fence. In fact, I had a young man come bring me deer meat because he got a deer off my land about three weeks ago. He says, When are we starting to build a fence? And I went, I have other farmers who say, How do you get kids to help you? And I said, And they won't even take money. I said, Because of I let them see what a farm is. I think we were talking at lunchtime that how people some young people today don't really know what it's like to work. And I'm not saying just on farms, but, you know and but I've exposed thousands of kids to my farm, and I can say thousands. You can ask the governor. Sorry. Oh, he's been to my places a few times. And I didn't mean to name drop, but I I'm very proud. I'm very proud to know him. So anyway, yeah. And I just the support that you're thinking about supporting down the road, please do it because it helped me save something that was a promise to somebody. And it helped me to give something to another generation. It's a program that needs to be supported by everybody. Whether it's blueberries or quail or chickens, turkeys, chickens, grass, anything, it's very important to the state of Vermont. More good letters. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Rosalie, I thank you. Can be hard for anyone to come in to, we were talking about coming into the building, coming into the committee room, and sitting down at the table, then sharing a story, personal story. So thank you.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Coming right back.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: That's alright. You have any questions? And I'm gonna say it. I'm proud of my son. He died serving his country. He died in Kuwait as a 19 year old marine. He wasn't even in there a year, and I got a nice letter from the Crown Prince of Kuwait, one of them, and I do his programs in his memory. And I have since May 1999, I work with thousands of kids from teaching them how to handle firearms for a hunter's education. I've graduated with 3,000 kids. I give community service to young people to help with his memorial. We do a big fishing derby for Mount Fish and Wildlife, supports my son's memorial by donating 18 to 2,000 fish every year, and they've been doing that since May '99, so that I can teach kids how to cast, make lures, and do different things. Nobody's ever paid in my son's memorial. It's all done with donations and a five zero one c three organization that I put together, and I've had several attorneys say, how did you do that? I said, I don't know. I just sat down one day and did it. And I've had people ask me, you know, I would like to do something in my mom's memory, and I said, I I can't even tell you how I did it. I'm serious. But yes, we do a haunted Forest. We do day camps. Last year and the year before, I had over 700 kids. And I've had people say, How do you do that and run a firearm? And I said, it just works out. I'm done chores by eleven. I got the kids there for, you know, 10:30 or so until 03:00 in the afternoon. But l j w memorial dot org. Sorry. That's my plug. And I'm keeping the wish so that my son, if in fact, there's four or five marines who are gonna come to Vermont, and they're gonna still see that farm.

[Speaker 0]: I'll representative Lipsky get one question in here, and then we I think we still wanna have One.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Okay. It's brief, but also We in this body serve with another gold star, Karen, like you, so we every day, we think.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: Thank you. I just wish I hope that his marine brothers will be able to come before I'm not farming anymore. It's gonna be passed on to a farmer, which is his sister, but I've hung on to it since May 1999. That thought that he's gonna his friends are gonna be able to see. Sorry. I'm sorry.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: Sorry, wasn't kidding. You made that. What you're doing for your community is us. Your son is extremely proud

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: of you. Thank you. You.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Yeah.

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: So thank you for having me. I'm Travis Markot. I had a few remarks, but I'm gonna riff just a little bit. It's following up on real stories of real farm families. Is pretty hard, and I think it's important to note just what we're trying to do. There's dollars involved in what VHCb does. The coalition is trying to invite you all to really consider how to put quite a bit of money towards this kind of work. We know our agricultural economy is awesome, can be really awesome, is also challenged in some ways. We know that the land is really important to all of us as Vermonters. We know people like to come here to visit, to see, you know, the vistas and, you know, what we have to offer. But I think what we're hearing here is way beyond that, that it's the What is the cultural elements? What are the meaningful stories that farm families have? I grew up on my grandparents farm in Chittenden County. It was my mom's side is the farm I grew up on a dairy farm, the Larson family, Swedish descendants. It was a rather chilly farmhouse. Lots of big sweaters. Nobody talks too much. Like, if I'm an introvert, times 10, with Ruth and Walter, my grandparents. I was lucky to grow up there. I also was lucky to also spend time on my meme and Pepe's farm on the other side of town, the Marcotte family, French Canadians, and they had the dairy farm on the East side of town, and my mom certainly had a dairy farm on the West side of town.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And in

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: Charlotte, you know, and this was in the late 30s. Charlotte was an agrarian community, very few stop times, Quite different now. And then my aunt and uncle Doris and Mike Cloughlin had another farm, sort of from Mount Filo down over Route 7 towards Lake Champlain. But the stories in families and the generational discussions, I mean, I'm still in a conversation with my family on my mom's farm about losing parts of that farm. When my grandparents got out of dairying, they owned Lakefront property and started to survey the land and sell parts of the farm. As generations transitioned, the dairy barn was sold, and so then the farm became sort of split in half. And I'm still a farm manager of sort of two parts of this farm. So I just wanted to, you know, like, I'm trained more of as an agricultural economist. I think about the value of what agriculture brings to Vermont. You know, we feed people, it makes money for people, But the stories we've heard are really deep. And what we're trying to do in Vermont is that too, times 10. I run the Interval Center, and we have been working with Vermont Housing Conservation Board for over twenty years, the entire time that I've been at the Interval Center in partnership in the Vermont Farm and Forest Viability Program. So I was sort of invited here because of that business planning work that we do with farms all over the state of Vermont. And so, you know, we've worked very closely with VHCB, with all of the directors, to now working with Liz, you know, and I think as a member of the Housing and Conservation Coalition, as a Vermonter that lives in Franklin County, and as a kid who grew up on a farm, I really respectfully ask you to support the funding of Vermont Housing Conservation Board of its full statutory share of $37,600,000 We now have worked with somewhere close to 1,000 farms around Vermont, small farms, bigger farms, livestock operations, vegetable farms. At the kitchen table, our whole model is to really roll sleeves up, meet farmers where they are. And we specialize in helping figure out sort of what is it about the farm management that you want to work on? What is it about the financial sort of situation that you might want to work on? Are you looking to buy land, grow the farm, figure out how to get health care. So we approach a farm family where they are. And of those 1,000 or so farms, probably you know, 40 to 50% of those business plan projects are receiving some sort of funding through the Vermont Farm and Forest Viability Program. So we work as a service contractor, essentially. We now have four business planners around the state of Vermont. And we work with around 130 farms a year now and going forward. We also manage something called Vermont Landlink, which is sort of a it's almost like a dating service for land seekers and landowners. So it could be a, you know, an emerging farmer that wants to gain access to land, and a landowner, might have a profile on this website and says, I've got 50 acres, how do I get access? That sort of match gets made, and then we can provide support to sort of help that come together. We work very closely with land trusts in Vermont, namely Vermont Land Trust. We have a very, very close working relationship. I would say we're often in kind of the partnership conversation where the business plan needs to be sort of figured out and how the financing packages might get stacked together. And VLT is really instrumental in the conservation deal and sort of really putting that together. We have had people from around the world come and visit, and they'll often learn about what we're doing and almost see like this seamless family of like co conspirators that are like supporting farmers. We're doing business planning. We're doing land conservation. And they're like, how do you guys all in Vermont, you know, just work so well together? This is a really, really important sort of family that is working in Vermont to support farms. I also just wanted to share, you know, sort of like what happens when you do business technical assistance with farms. And, you know, we've heard some good examples here. You know, really, talking about strengthening financial management. You know, coming out as a stronger business manager for anything from a general store, you know, to farm is critically important to the success. We see, and you've probably had testimony from VHCb and the Farm and Forest Viability Program, you know, we're seeing increased profitability. We see farms that are adding jobs. We're seeing gross sales go up. We're also, I think, seeing farms that are able to develop longer term business planning strategies that then allows them to think about things like water quality investments, partnering with Fish and Wildlife to restore riparian buffer. So you can start to do a little bit longer range planning if you have a little more room in the business. At the end of the day, I think a commitment to what VHCb does broadly, and then more specifically in relationship to farm viability in Vermont, you know, reflects our long standing commitment to conserving working lands, supporting farm viability, strengthening our food system resiliency. It's a long term investment in a stronger, more resilient Vermont. And I think this is the part that I want to stress as somebody who's been working on this for two decades. This funding supports something that already exists, and I think is a real model for the world and is really successful. The Vermont Farm and Forest Viability Program, you know, is seen as one of the leading edge programs for the nation. You know, we had a hand in creating the National Farm Viability Conference. I don't know if anyone remembers that in Middlebury. That's now something that happens every two years around the country. People are looking to this model to really replicate it. We've done training in New Hampshire. We've done training in the Midwest, in Oregon, just around how does this model work. So with that, think, you know, I'll just share a few names. I mean, every farm has a unique story. There's no way I can share all the stories of the farms that we might work with, but I can share just a few names. We've, as I said, worked with over 900 farms and Sweet Cow in West Newberry, Honeyfield in Norwich, Mama Farm in Williston, Champlain Orchard in Shoreham, Maple Winds, Richmond, Maple Monts up in Barnett, Clearfield in Granville, Larson Farm in Wells, Adamsbury Farm in Charlotte, Luna Blue in South, Royalton, Freeverse in Chelsea, Pegasus was mentioned earlier in the islands, and on and on. So you're supporting this investment in Vermont, supports these kinds of farm stories times hundreds. So I just I really thank you very much for having us all here today and supporting the great work

[Speaker 0]: of Vermont Housing Conservation Board. Representative Nelson.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: There's a new type of solar new type of farm out there called solar. Do we allow that on our good working soils or not?

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: You mean placing solar panels on farms?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: It's like siding.

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: Yeah.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And I'm not talking talking, you know, big.

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: Yeah. Yeah. Do we allow I mean, Vermont allows solar. Yeah. Do we encourage solar in the work that we do? It's really where it presents itself. If the landowner has some interest in solar and wants to layer that into the business operations, then, you know, we would look at that and let sort of the state, you know, rules and regulations sort of guide how that works. What I can say, and we don't work with a lot of farms that are looking to grow solar, but we have worked with a handful of farms that are looking to do grazing in and around solar. So we have a farm that we've been working with that rotates a herd of sheep around, pretty significant scale operation at this point, but is able to bring those animals in to graze in and around solar. So if a landowner or a farm has decided to invest in solar, it's an interesting way to be able to graze animals in those fields.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: Travis, can

[Jack Owen (Champlain Housing Trust)]: you explain to me how this all fits? You're at the Intervale Center, and then there's the Vermont Farm and Forest Viability Program. And I assume funding comes from VHPB to help out the service you provide? Lately, or you leverage it, or how does that work?

[Travis Marcotte (Executive Director, Intervale Center)]: That's a great question. So we operate as a service provider to VHCb. We've been doing this for about twenty years. Other partners might be the University of Vermont Extension, NOFA Vermont, Land4Good, and others can be providing this business technical assistance. If about half of our funding maybe comes from VHCb every year, I'm then out leveraging that, whether through private philanthropy, raising additional funds, applying for federal grants that might come through for beginning farmer rancher development. So we're constantly looking to leverage the dollar. So as Vermont public dollars get spent, how do we sort of really bolster that? On our program, it also gives us flexibility. We can have different ways we serve farmers. With VHCb, we've worked for years to help develop all of the business plan guidelines, deliverables, year two follow-up analyses. So you're bringing a farmer into like a curriculum, but you may have a farm that is really just interested in a cash flow analysis. So it's helpful for us to have a mix of revenue sources so that we can provide that flexibility when a farm does give us a ring and needs something. That's a great question. So yeah, leveraging the dollars that we have.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. I know we're running a little bit over and don't wanna keep anybody here too long. I I I will just say that and I'll say it now while everybody's here that we talked at the beginning of the hour about the the property transfer tax, which is a it's a fairly substantial amount of money. And up until a year or two ago, I think the governor's recommended budget when it came through each year, thought thought better of using that money somewhere else. And the legislature, for its part, agreed, concurred. So this wasn't a wasn't a partisan question. It might have been a political question just because resources are, political choices. But I think that this year, we're back in sort of a tighter situation. There may be, although I think the governor did recommend the full funding, there may be some try and push and pull on getting some of that money for other programs. So I think it'll be important for us to speak up. We do every year in our letter, we do advocate for the full amount of funding. So I'm sure that we will do that in the letter, but we'll have to, I think, maybe do more than that even this year.

[Mark (blueberry farmer, West Pawlet; 'Kinder Way' farm)]: Great, thank you.

[Speaker 0]: All right, did you want to say anything in closing, Abby?

[Abby White (Co-Chair, Vermont Housing & Conservation Coalition; Vermont Land Trust)]: No, I'm just really blown away by all of the testifying today and the conversation that happened around the table, so thank you. This is our last hearing, so it was a really good one, and thank you for your presence.

[Unidentified participant (multiple speakers consolidated under this ID)]: Thank you.

[Rosalie Williams (farmer, Bakersfield)]: Right, thank you. Alright,

[Mollie McClintock (Advocacy Coordinator, VHCB)]: we

[Speaker 0]: will