Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Down in Bennington County. Richard Nelson,

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Orleans one, which is a kind of derby.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Jed Lipsky, and one of one's skull.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Greg Burtt, Cabinet and Regent Beecher.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: John Bartholomew from Portland, also representing Windsor and West Windsor.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, so if you want to introduce yourself to the record and anyone who's come with you that you want to introduce now, I can do that too.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I guess I could do that. So my name is Cindy Robillard. I have with me today our policy liaison, policy director, and our general counsel, Robert Deppar, Rowan Hawthorne. You all know Steve Collier, who's here. He may be able to add something to this conversation as well. So just want to give a quick introduction about myself so you know what I bring to this conversation. I have been with the Department of Labor for thirty four years. I like to say I kinda grew up doing workforce development, and that's totally true, in a lot of ways. I'm from Saint Johnsbury, so I, worked providing direct services in our job centers in St. Johnsbury and Newport. I moved into a management role in both the Northeast Kingdom and Central Vermont over the years. And then in 2023, so about three years ago, I kind of put all my program knowledge and experience to work in, this role that I'm in, which is the assistant director of the Workforce Development Division. And, my primary function is to support a team of program administrators that administer our federal programs. So I have a staff of people, not a huge staff, a small staff of people that work and provide service through the H2A program, among other programs, things like apprenticeship and our federal workforce funding, which is the Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act. You may have heard, we like to call it WIOA. So those are kind of my responsibilities, and that's what brings me here today. So I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you all. And I love your interest in this program. Certainly it's a critical economic driver for the Vermont ag economy. We are going to just start a little bit with a few high level points about the H2A program. Number one, it's a federal program. And so what I'm going to talk about today is our role and how we facilitate that. But essentially, it allows US farm owners to bring foreign nationals to The US. It supports the agricultural sector, and it's been part of the national agricultural landscape since 1986. So it was part of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of '86. There was previous history as it evolved through the years because there's always been a need to have foreign agricultural workers supporting our agricultural economy. And in doing a little research about the history, it sounds like in the early 2000s, it really started to ramp up quite a bit. Interesting fact you might be interested in is that in 2025, there were three twenty or so H-2A visas issued in The United States. 2025.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: 300.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: 20,000.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Does that seem like a big number, but do we know anything about are there other data points? Is that a bigger number than it had been growing? It's been growing. Steadily. Is capped?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It is not capped. We have two foreign labor programs. One is the H2B program, which is for any non agricultural workers, which is not what we're talking about today. But that program is capped. That includes workers who come here and see areas, hospitality. Yeah, hospitality, I'm trying to think about. We are less involved. We don't have the hands on oversight or the hands on processing involvement with the H-2B program. Employer driven program. They post their job openings, they meet certain requirements, and then they are awarded their visas. But it is capped, and it's much lower than that number.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So so the the department isn't like, I'd go between maybe you might be here. Right.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Representative Bartholomew. Maybe you're gonna answer this, how many are in Vermont, and once they get the visa, do they move or they go to one place? And do we know how many are here?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Well, I have my next slide. I can tell you that in 2025, we received somewhere between five hundred and six hundred applications for H-2A visas. So that's the data that we are able to track. What we are not as easily able to track is actually how many of those are filled and how many come here. And I'm going to talk a little bit later in the conversation about the outreach work that we are required to do with our guest workers. That's where we're gathering data on the numbers that actually receive a visa, travel, come here. I'm guessing that that number is around 400 annually. That's our best Of

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: the 500 to 600.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Of the 500 to 600 applications. Let's see. I think you're all familiar with this, but this is a program that's for a seasonal need. So this is not a tool that would serve a year round operation. So one of the things you won't see on this slide is dairy. Crops, maple production, poultry farms, recently hops production, logging, those kinds of I don't know too if we've seen too many logging applications.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: No. Let's go ahead and stand up.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I'm I'm struck as hard with me. So

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I I am not familiar in my short time.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Almost sixty years. I've never seen that young age to a young Yeah. Saw the old sort of best Yep. You know, labor force.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Have, in my time being, you know, providing oversight, I have not seen a logging company's application come through either. So that there may have been a time when that was more widely used or maybe not at all in Vermont. I'm not sure.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: It's I mean, logging is seasonal, I guess, in its own way, but it's different than what it's season.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Where where would

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: they put Christmas tree operations? Would they would they confuse that with login? Because I know that there's I've seen the ad from for people with big Christmas tree

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: operations. Based on what I think the definition is, that to me seems like it would be a seasonal operation for with with the harvest. But I'm not familiar with any in my recent years of overseeing the processing.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Are Christmas trees an agricultural crop not a forest?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I mean, that way you redefine them, it might be different than just better.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: For your interests, most of our workers come from Jamaica, Mexico, Guatemala, or Ecuador. So those are the primary countries that issue visas to first to come here and perform agricultural work. Okay, so now I'm going to walk you through the process and try to make it clear a little bit about who's engaged in this process, who's got responsibilities for what points along the way, and what the Department of Labor's role is. So the farm owner needs to file an application for a job order between sixty and seventy five days prior to the need, so prior to the time that the workers need to start. We use a system called FLAG, because everything has an acronym. It's the Foreign Labor Application Gateway. It's really just a communication tool that either employers and their agents, they are able to enter the job posting there. The US Department of Labor Office of Foreign Labor Certification, who reviews these and gives the final approval, is using the system. Then we, at the Department of Labor here in Vermont, are doing the pieces that we're responsible for and uploading and sharing information in that system to complete the package, the application package. So when we receive a job posting, the first thing we do is make sure it gets into our Vermont JobLink system. That is done for the purpose of recruiting, positive recruitment for US workers. So, basically, the farms, the agricultural employers are posting the job and job link to show that they have attempted to fill their openings with domestic US workers. And so that's our system is called Vermont JobLink, and that's where those jobs get posted. I then provide information that says that box has been checked and that's done. That job posting needs to remain open until I believe thirty days before start. The next thing that we do at the Department of Labor is we order a pre occupancy housing inspection. And we do this through an agreement with the Vermont Agency of Ag. And it's really positive partnership in that they have ag inspectors who are out visiting farms for a multitude of reasons. They have relationships with farm owners and it just makes a lot of sense. That's a fairly new MOU. I would say it's maybe been three or four years, something like that. So there's communication that goes back and forth. The inspection is completed, includes a water test for all properties that are on municipal water. And then when all of those documents get back to me, I upload them into this flight system. That really completes the package except for one final piece, which is that I then have to go back to the job order that's been posted in JobLink and verify that no referrals for domestic US workers were made. Because if US workers are interested in applying for that opening, then the agricultural employer needs to consider them and interview them. And so that's what we're verifying. Let's see, am I missing anything? So when everything is been reviewed, there are processors called certifying officers, COs that's an acronym that's used a lot in, I think, Chicago that review all of the application, make sure all the parts, make sure all the timelines have been met, and then they issue a notice of approval to the farm. And it basically says that you've done all the steps, and we're going to issue the visas, and then the workers then the shift goes to working with the US Citizenship and Immigration Services to get the workers their visas, match the visas, make the arrangements. And there are in betweens, you probably can speak to this. There are intermediaries that navigate that, I think, for farm owners to make that system a little bit easier. So any questions about that process?

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Reliable service.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: thought I could do the ad part in the newspaper for the ads for business anyway, that's like a nightmare, just that one. So it's like a thousand bucks just to pay for the ad newspaper to advertise for

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: the job position for domestic

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: workers. And it's like, that amount of regulations around the house. Okay, good. How does that do it?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I would say percentage wise, I'm thinking about I'm looking at my flag screen, I'm looking at this big column of entries. I would say more than half of the employers use some kind of consultant or agent, I guess you would call them, to do this work.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: If you were a new farmer and hadn't used the service before and didn't know how to find a consultant with the department, coordinate that or

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: We would, we could, we could, but

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, it doesn't happen all that often.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Doesn't happen all that often. And honestly, what we do is we refer them to a very detailed website, and there's a very articulate, like, these are the steps you need to take. But we do make referrals and let them know there are agents out there that can help you. And it sounds like to get your money's worth, your thought is that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And it sounds like, and I don't wanna have this focus on any one person's business at all, but the second bullet point then posting the job, is that that's one way to check that box. Could you also advertise it and

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: You can.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Newspaper or

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: to use the state workforce agency's database. So every state has a I think I put somewhere. Yeah, they call us the SWA, the state workforce agency. So you are required to post your opening with the state workforce agency, their system. You can use other means to post.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: If you want to. Okay. Mean, nowadays, most people seem to be finding jobs using twenty first century technology rather than the newspaper. Okay. Any other questions about this process? Okay.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: So the contract that exists between the worker and the employer, there are several requirements that the employer has to agree to and, you know, accept responsibility for. So there's the cost of the transportation, inbound and outbound. They need to provide housing, and that housing needs to meet all the applicable safety standards. Transportation to and from the worksite, sometimes that's not a thing. But if your housing is two miles down the road, you have to be able to get your workers there. That's on you. Cover workers' comp. And then one thing that doesn't get talked about too, too much, but it became an issue in some parts of the state in 'twenty three and 'twenty four with the flooding is there's a three quarter guarantee for wages. And basically what that means is if weather or conditions or some factor are affecting the ability to be able to keep these workers whole while they're here, there's a minimum requirement that they they're paid for three quarters of their contract time. So it's a protection, obviously, for the workers who have traveled here to do the work when things outside of control happen. And we did see it not in all parts of the state, obviously, but in some parts of the state where low lying fields and things like that were flooded. And there was at least some time where they weren't able to conduct any operations. So this exists in a contract, and there's many other details. These are the high level ones that the employer is responsible for.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Representative Burtt, just a clarification on three quarters of wages, two, yeah,

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: I came in 2022 when we got to Frost, I got a conversation with the guys. I was like, I do the best I can here. But they are guaranteed. It's not, you put in the application how many hours a week, you guarantee them to work, or that you agree to give them work, but then it'd be, say I put in forty hours, right? It would guarantee that they at least work thirty

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: and get paid. They get paid full rate,

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: they might work ten days if you don't have crop. Yeah,

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Important. Representative Durfee, you're growing apples. That frost was in May, that's the one you're talking about, about 2023. Yeah, and I already have guys there for permitting. Were already here.

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: You don't know if you're gonna get a crop, Even with flooding, you almost get to where

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: you get a crop and then you dump it.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So, representative, you. If if

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: you don't know, with workers came, like, in in your case, the frost happened or no. Yeah. Where they were planning to come, can you cancel? Like, okay. We needed them to pick, but there's not gonna be a crop.

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: How is this about? Like if you're halfway through all the

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: paperwork out of work. You you've got everything lined up and they're due to come on June 1 and there's a frost May 15, you know? Yeah. You start?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I could look into that. I I don't know the answer. Yeah. It's interesting to think

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: about that for sure. Yeah. Doesn't. So

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: if you're guaranteed for three quarters of them and you put it for forty hours a week, and in the case of a vegetable farm, they put in a lot hours early. And then you have flood, you lose your crop. When you put in for forty hours a week and they work fifty hours

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: a week, you've

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: you're twenty hours over that three quarters. Is that carried forward all the way through? Or are you required to have cover for thirty hours a week after the event happens? I'm just curious.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I could look into that for sure.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Yeah. There is. I I mean, and if you put it for forty and they work forty hours for three quarters of a season with you, then you have the event that slammed door shut on your harvest. Have you met your obligation because you covered a three quarters of the season anyway?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Yeah, I can I can double check on that? I actually think that the three quarter requirement is of the whole season. It's about a week in in time, but it's also about the whole season.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: I I also understand if you have the same people come from Jamaica every year to work on your farm, you're probably gonna try to help take care of them because you want them back again next year.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Last hypothetical, but something you just said made me wonder about over time. Are there plus forty hour weeks?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: There are plus forty hour weeks, but think it's a straight time. Okay. Straight time.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That would be built into the contract.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It is built into the contract. Yes. Okay, so I'm going to move on to the adverse effect wage rate that we like to refer to as AWAR. Basically, the US Department of Labor sets the rate for wages with this program. The required minimum H2A AWR rate is in place so that we can ensure that the hiring of foreign workers doesn't adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed US workers. So that's the kind of thinking behind the fact that we have this rate. On this slide, you can see the progression of the history of the rate between 2021 and 2025. And so during those years, we were seeing very, very regular increases in this hourly rate. It's set annually. And certainly in those years, it did see significant.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And that's calculated calculated by a federal

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: There's a federal formula. Yes. Yep.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: And is

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: this the same rate across the whole country or is this rate special to

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It's unique to each state. Each state has its own AWAR.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Entire state.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It's one rate for the state. That's correct. Until last year, when the AWAR had had some significant changes in its structure and its, I guess, design. There was an interim final rule released last October that basically made an adjustment to this rate, and it is now based, it was certainly adjusted downward, as you can see from this set of figures, but it's also broken into skill level. And the blue column is the rate that would need to be paid to US workers. The red color column is for the H2A workers. And then within each, there are skill level one and two. Skill level one is less than three months, skill level two is three months or more. And then something new is that it now includes something called the adverse compensation adjustment, which is a deduction that an employer can take to account for the housing allowance or housing that's being provided. Let's see. What would I like to say about that? What we have seen from the applications that have arrived from January that I have processed and we've received from January 1 till now is that about 70% of the employers are choosing to pay the former AWAR rate or something higher than this current AWAR rate. I've actually seen some applications that say wage rate will be adjusted based on experience. The Office of Foreign Labor Certification reviews that and will make their decision based on whether they feel like that's an adequate statement to make. But I think the thing to remember about this is this is a program that there's a lot of history in many cases with the workers and the farm owners. And I think that there's a lot of factors that go into setting a wage rate. So being told what the wage rate is and then being an employer who would like some independence in what you do to set your wage rate, in some ways, this new system allows for it to be a possibility.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Floor? This is the floor. Floor. And and has it always been a floor?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It has always been a minimum. Yes.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Got it. Okay. So employers can make a choice whether to pay this rate or something higher. That's correct. Representative

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Bos-Lun?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Yeah. Can you say a little

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: bit more about the housing cost adjustment? Like, how much are are you said that the wages can be reduced because you have the housing. So what's that look like?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It's $1.61

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Oh, that's it. So it's only Okay. So it's very modest.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Yep. This is the tool that Basically, what you're seeing here is a snip from a big long spreadsheet that has an amount for every state. And this is what Vermont is looking at right now.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I noticed our state code is 50. Oh, top of of the list.

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Top of the bottom.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So the $1.61 that's what can be deducted per hour.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Per hour.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And it looks like that's the difference between the blue and the red. So the US worker gets $15.96.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Yep. They're skill level one, yes.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Foreign worker gets $15.96 and you subtract out the housing amount and it's $14.35. And again, this is a minimum for US workers. So the US worker could be paid more.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Absolutely. Yeah. So when the job postings go up in our system, they have to be posted at a minimum of fifteen ninety six. So one of my roles is to scan those before they get actually entered into the system. And if I saw something less than fifteen ninety six, I would reach out to the employer or the agent in whatever case the case was and ask what was going on there because that's the required Because, again, the whole point of the job posting is that we're looking to recruit US domestic workers, and that's where we have to start there.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So the dollar 61, that's a statewide number. It is. So yeah. So it seems like a small number if you multiply it by forty hours a week and then figure out how much is that per month. Still seems like it would probably be a small number for the amount that an employer can attribute to housing costs. Costs, right.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Representative Franklin. Just to make sure I understood what you just said, the $14.35 is including the subtraction of the $1.61?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: No, it's not.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Okay, it's not. So the actual rate they're getting is 161 less per hour of 12 something. Is that right?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: My interest

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: This is Robert. This is Robert Deborah. I'm general counsel for labor. It could very well be that. Mean it just so happens right here that that 161 is subtracted

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: out on the

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: adverse effect wage rate for borrowers from other countries, but it could very well be lower than $14.35 based on how much 161 adverse compensation adjustment.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Maybe we could clarify that because I'm confused then if that's not the actual amount because it seems like if you just take the blue numbers and subtract one sixty one, you get the numbers that are showing for the That

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: is true. So these will be US workers that presumably don't have the half house.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. Alright? Yep. The red would

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: be foreign workers that presumably, again, do have the half house. Now there are potentially circumstances and I couldn't necessarily list them up right now, but there are circumstances that I've seen some reporting and just some lawyer analysis that you know there are circumstances where that 161 could be taken off skill level one and it could drop on them.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay, thank you.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: We can do a little bit more digging. I mean, is a very complex set of, you know, trying to understand how we arrived at this. And there's been, you know, minimal official guidance, I would say. So I think it's fair that we might need to get back to you with some more details on that. Yep. Okay, so we know what they're going to make. Now we're moving on to the housing. So employers have to provide housing to H-2A workers in safe and well, oh, wait a minute. Hold on. I'm losing my thought. This is for H2A workers, you have to be able to provide housing because they're not able to return to their home at night, obviously. If an employer elects some sort of public housing, that we have different inspection requirements for that. But basically, this is where we actively engage with our agency of ag partners to have housing inspections conducted. There's a checklist that those housing inspectors follow to make sure that, you know, it covers things like the number of square feet, the number of beds, egress, I have it with me. If anybody wanted to see a copy of it, I can certainly send it around. But there's a fairly extensive checklist that goes into making sure that the housing is safe and adequate. We have, in the last couple of years, decided that in partnership with the agency of agriculture and the department of Vermont Fire Safety needed to be a little bit more take an educational approach to making sure that housing is lining up and fitting all the requirements. We've because there's often some confusion. There are a lot of pieces of this that could be very confusing. And so we have done some direct mailings out to our agriculture employers who use this program with some frequently asked questions. And here are some high level facts that you should know. We offered some information sessions around this last fall, and we're going to continue to do that because this is one of those areas that is just really critical that we make sure that the people who come here to work do have the right kind of housing, that it's safe and meets all the standards that it has to meet. Does anybody have any questions about the housing? All right, so now we move to the phase where the workers are here. And then our role really shifts our funding shifts first because the processing on the front end of the application, the housing inspection, the posting of job order, that's funded by the Office of Foreign Labor Certification. And we get a minimal amount of money annually to do that work. Then we move to providing reemployment or employment services to migrant seasonal farm workers. And to do that, we are required to have an outreach position. Lots of states have many outreach positions. Vermont has one. And we are needing to, while the workers are here, we have an obligation to conduct field visits to visit those workers in their working and living space. The goals of those visits are really to educate workers on resources, make referrals to things that they may be needing while they're here. There are a couple of free clinics that we refer people to healthcare for, food banks if that's something they need, English as a second language. And some of this stuff never even gets they don't take us up on it. But we have an obligation to go out and provide it. We also have an obligation to provide an explanation of the employment service complaint system. This is a vulnerable population, and we want to make sure that they understand that they can raise any concerns, and there's a mechanism for them to do that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Is that sort of the obligation is a federal obligation? And does the federal government reimburse the state for We

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: not to get too into the weeds, but we receive a base amount of employment service funding under the Wagner Peyser Act, and that is for and this work is covered under that. It also covers our need to have a position in our system called the state monitor advocate, who is every state has one. Their role is to review complaints and help manage the processing of those complaints, get them to the right enforcement or investigation bodies to be able to bring those complaints to resolution quickly. The thing about any complaints that come from migrant seasonal farm workers is they're only here for a short period of time. So if there's the need for resolution, we need to be acting quickly to be able to make that happen. With the employer visits, our team is energetic. They're friendly. They work with employers to schedule a time that works. We understand that there's work to be done. So we talk about we could visit at lunch or we could come after work. We really try to offer as flexible a schedule as possible to be able to get those visits in check-in with folks.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Register, you work

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: with Bridges Health?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Bridges to Health and the Open Door Clinic in Middlebury are primary health care resources for folks.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Okay,

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: so I just wanted to touch quickly on the employment service complaint system. I already mentioned that each state has a state monitor advocate. That system is in place to protect these workers. I think I'll generally say that we have had really relatively low numbers of complaints across state government, across our employment service complaint system. I guess that can mean that our employers are doing a good job. But complaints can be made by an individual. So a specific worker could raise a concern with us about, maybe it would be about their pay, like they didn't receive their payroll in a timely manner or their checks aren't adding up the way they should, something specific to an individual, or they can be filed, a complaint can be filed as an apparent violation, which is on behalf of something that was observed or witnessed by a partner group, a group of employees, a concerned citizen. So apparent violations come to us in a lot of different ways. The state monitor advocate reviews those complaints and then refers them to the proper enforcement authority. I get my complaint form in front of me here, because I bet you're going to ask some questions And about then I have, on the next slide, I have some stats on just the last couple of years because tracking complaints is something that we've had to renew our commitment to, I guess I'll say. And so I have some stats from 2024 and some stats from 2025. We probably have them from 2023 and past, but, they were not easily available. So, I can get them for you if you'd like them. But, again, these are the numbers, the total number of complaints. Those complaints can come from anyone who has a concern about their employment situation. And it can cover things that are wage related, health and safety, housing, pesticides, discrimination, sexual harassment, transportation, trafficking, and they even allow us to put in other because who knows what we might see or hear about. So the one thing that's really important about migrant seasonal farm workers is that while all complaints are received and sent to the proper enforcement authority, the ones that we have an obligation to see to resolution are those of migrant seasonal farm workers. So an example might be that we would receive a complaint from a store where the workers came to work one day and there was no heat. I'm just using this as an example. So they filed a complaint and we referred it to our VOCA folks and that's our end of the obligation there. We're going to refer it to VOCA and they're going to work through it and that's where our responsibility to follow it ends. But if something like that was happening with a migrant seasonal farm worker, we then will our state monitor advocate will continue to work with the worker and whoever the enforcement authority is and the employer, if that's appropriate, to make sure that whatever the issue was has been resolved. This shows where we refer our complaints. We have enforcement groups, agencies, or entities in Vermont. We have Vermont BOCES. Responsibility is for farms with over 10 migrant seasonal farm workers. We have a Vermont Wage and Hour division, and we have the Vermont Attorney General Civil Rights Division who received some of our complaints. We also partner very closely with the US Department of Labor who has ultimate authority over the H2A program. And so some complaints are referred to a US DOL, wage an hour, and they then send someone here. One thing to note about US Wage An Hour is there's not a Vermont US wage an hour presence that I think it's been closed for a few years. It used to be an office in Burlington. So we receive services from wage an hour out in New Hampshire and they cover Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. So if there's something that needs to be investigated, they send somebody over to do that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Sorry, you may have explained this. The numbers on the right are the seasonal farm worker numbers.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: The number on the right are the number of total complaints. So that could be from any worker about any employer. And then the migrant seasonal farm worker is the right hand column.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Any employer in the state?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Any employer in the state.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Any job. Any job. Okay. Relatively few, there have been none in 2025 for this program. Yeah,

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: the numbers are pretty low.

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Yeah, Missouri's hurting us. So

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: that is the last slide I have. I'm happy to take any other questions. Thank

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: you. Very helpful. Representative Bartholomew.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: You mentioned that it doesn't include dairy. Is dairy specifically excluded or is it just not practical because of the year alone cycle?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It's because it doesn't meet the test of temporary seasonal. In order to use the H2A program, your need has to be a temporary seasonal, like a peak season nature, and you have to be able to define the period you need them.

[John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: You're a dairy farmer and you have an employee who gets elected to the legislature and is gone. I

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: don't think that's gonna work.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: They're good at that they don't have to pay me in the winter.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Representative Lipsky.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yes. Thank you. My question really, you know, what the farmers are aware of and my constituents have spent, mostly dairy farmers that really stand on their heads to make sure their workers get access to grocery store, food, health care, and so

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: and I'm not sure that's

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: so even for the part part time seasonable. Yeah. But the actual cost of food, I mean, the housing deduction is is tiny. You know, it's the average for moderns and moderate income. The modern might put 35 to 55% of their gross annual income into housing.

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Right.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: That does that may include utilities, but that may not include food. Yeah. So our if you're on a pig farm, for instance, how do they get fed? That's the first question.

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: If Or medical care.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Right. So I guess what I can answer is that farms who provide housing can if they provide a kitchen and the space for the preparation of food, then they need to make it reasonably possible for those workers to be able to access groceries and purchase that food. Now, sometimes we've seen where it is possible for an employer to choose. I don't think I've seen one. I guess it's possible, but I know it's possible because I've seen it in the job postings of examples I've seen. Two, they can provide a daily allowance for food if they don't provide the space for preparation of food. So in other words, if their housing is maybe using a motel and there's not space to properly cook the food that needs to be cooked, then they can issue them daily food allowance to cover those costs.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: The the follow-up question is really it's because of these times because they're not at department of labor had to deal with any of these seasonable seasonal workers being swept up and any sort of immigration who have been

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I think the thing to remember about these workers is they are as documented as they could be. I know. I know. But, you know, I think I think the workers, they're here for a specific reason. They our outreach people encourage them to, you know, carry their documents, their visas with them. So I don't have any stories or anecdotal stories about that. Yeah, I wouldn't venture a guess.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Again, you may have mentioned this earlier in the presentation. How long has the program been in existence?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: It was part of, I have that. I have that. 1992. I think it's 1992. Created by the Immigration Reform and Control Act oh, I'm sorry. 8086. '86.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: 1986. Okay. So prior to that, something else, who knows what the world was like, collectively, wise minds came together and set up this system. Okay, that's good to know. If we step back and think about why do we need the program? And what I mean by that is, why do we need to have workers from another country in our country doing the agricultural work? May have commented on that in the beginning too. I want to ask the witness for that question. Well,

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I think that one thing I can point to is that we post the jobs. We advertise the jobs through the system to US workers. And 99% of the time, when I have to respond to that part of the application process, my note says no referrals made, which means that people aren't applying for the jobs. So that's one thing I could say about that.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And do we believe that people who might be eligible and qualified and interested in doing the work are aware of the posting?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: That's an interesting question. There have been some recent discussions with the US Department of Labor providing some strategies for more active outreach to make our US domestic workers aware. And so they have lots of ideas about how we can do that. And they also you know, fund about half a position. We're going to approach that with whatever we can best do, we're going to do that. We do the jobs are posted. We publish a weekly newsletter that goes out to, I think our mailing list is between thousand, about 20 to 25,000 people. And we do mix these openings in with that outreach so it does go out to the public in that in in that way. But if if they're not looking in the job link system, your point, I think, is that they could miss the opportunity.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yes, please.

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Thank you, chair. Rowan Hawthorne, policy director of the Department of Labor and Beyond. Only I wanted to add to that to answer your question is that

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: we all know we have

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: a workforce crisis here in Vermont, and so that's, let's say, we're estimating about 400 individuals who are coming here to fill those positions. If we didn't have this program, that would be 400 positions that are unfilled that are not being held to alarms. Because like Cindy said, if the positions were to be filled by the owners, they would have likely been filled. And so theoretically, this program could be taken away and then employers would have to continue raising that hourly rate in order to attract workers that that would really hurt the farm. So it's of this it's a hard decision that farmers would end up having to make, but this program really helps fill those formed positions that we otherwise don't have. As we know, agriculture is incredibly important to Vermont. So it's just an important part of the program, and it's a really big help here as we're experiencing this crisis. That's

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: good. Thank you. Yeah, We touched a little bit on the change over the years and the rate and then the rule that is called the interim final rule, I think was the

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Interim final rule. What does

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: that mean, interim final rule? Do you know? Rule making is a bit of a mystery to us.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I'm going to lean on the general counsel for his thoughts on that.

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Interim final rule, it's kind of just what it says. It's not the final rule, right? They're in the process of noticing comments right now. If this is their guidance that they're giving out, it's going to be the rule to get ready, this is what we're doing. And then of course they submit it the federal government, puts out guidance along with the rules. So we've seen this a lot with the federal government lately, that they will kind of make an interim change to a rule, they'll say this is what the rule is going to be, and then they issue guidance that says you better do it now. So that's why you're getting a lot of lawsuits about how these rules are coming down because whether or not an interim final rule is actually a rule, well reasonable minds might disagree, but the

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: federal government certainly makes sense. And

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: then, so like any rulemaking, the public can comment. Has the state, would the state comment on a rule change like this? We

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: can submit comments to rulemaking. We have in the past over different types of federal obligation.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Do you know whether the state did in this case?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I do not.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I think the reason that we thought it would be helpful to have So I need to back up and say it'd be very helpful just to get broader understanding of the program, which some of us, again, may have understood pretty well and others didn't. But just in terms of the rule change then and the effect or the impact that will have on employers, one thing, and then on the employees themselves. Do you have any thoughts on that? It seems like there are two things happening. One, there's the housing carve out. But then separately from that, there's now these two, I guess, two new two levels, but it used to only be one.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Yes. Any

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: thoughts on that?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I guess that my thought is that these workers are really important to these operations. And I know that the Vermont employers who bring workers here would be very, it would be a struggle as Rowan mentioned, think to fill these positions. The fact that close to 70% have elected to pay the higher rate tells me that they want to continue to do that and they want to continue to have the same folks come year after year that they're used to seeing and that they count on to do the work. And so, yeah, that's, I guess, what I could say. I don't know if

[Rowan Hawthorne (Policy Director, Vermont Department of Labor)]: you wanted to add anything, Robert.

[Robert Deborah (General Counsel, Vermont Department of Labor)]: Well, not for that. No, I did want to fill out the interim final rule. So with an interim final rule, there is notice of timing, but it's after the rule it's issued. So it's kind of the federal government does a good cause and the notice and how it goes and so the federal government essentially says, hey it's an emergency, community is ruled out and so that's why we haven't done notice of comments and this just came out not too long ago because the notice of comments typically accepted after.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay, I saw your hand

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: up Richard. Did you have a question earlier?

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: No, was going to make a comment. Okay, I don't need to.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Why don't we take one more question then?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: So with the new interim final rule in the two tier pricing, I can see the advantage if you get a new person to your operation. There is a training period before they're up and running. So, it it gives the farmer that opportunity to train if and and a lot of the farms get the same workers back every year, but I'm sure eventually somebody times out. Mhmm. They're not coming back anymore, you get a new one. Are you required to take the same people every year? I mean, it, you know, Greg Burtt fills out paperwork, gets, I don't know, we get 25, 30 of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Once you get two, three, four, whatever, do you how do you know you're gonna get the same people back every year? I mean, who who makes the determination or who once you get the okay, then you contact them to fill out the visa work. Is that how it goes?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I I would not be the best person to answer that in this room because once I, you know, send it along, then it moves to a different part of the federal government to handle the visa issuing and the matching. These folks have support from There's a Jamaican liaison. There's the Mexican consulate. So there there are intermediary type people that are involved in that process that support that. But I don't know how the same people come every year.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And and the same thing could be said on the other end, someone in Jamaica says, wanna go back to The US to work in an apple orchard, but I'm not going back to that place again.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah

[Rep. Gregory "Greg" Burtt (Member)]: they have date numbers if you know I've been speaking to that and you can request the same person. They obviously have to agree to come back.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: I mean, I can just say, I know a couple of farms in my area that have Jamaican workers that have been coming back for over twenty years. And I don't know if that's the case in most farms that you get set and you and there's a lot of return customers. But, like, the two that I know, there's a lot of them that that keep coming back that that are, you know, very reliable. They're like, family become, like, family members for the farms.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: But my cousins on Nantucket Island had a 10 acre Yeah. Farm there, and they get the same workers back. And after the hurricane hit, my cousin was shipping chainsaws to Jamaica for his

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: team.

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I mean, was a real, that's a good point that you made in Vermont last year in the fall when the terrible storm hit Jamaica, there was a real heavy, huge outreach of support to be able to raise money and send funds home if possible or send funds with these folks to be able to help their families. So your point is very, very much accurate.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Is the Department of Labor fully staffed or reasonably fully staffed?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I think we are right now. We're happy about that. This team is. I have an outreach worker. I have a state manager advocate. So yeah, we're in pretty good shape.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Any other questions or anything else that you wanted to add?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: No, but just thanks for for having me. This is a really great conversation, and I appreciate your interest in the program.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Can we get the federal government to finish fix the H-2A process to include dairy?

[Cindy Robillard (Assistant Director, Workforce Development Division, Vermont Department of Labor)]: I'll take that on.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We'd all like to take that on. All right, why don't we just take a Let me take ten minutes