Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Hi, Hillary. So, yeah, And welcome back if you would like to introduce yourself, tell us who you are and what you do. We know that we're on the general subject of the Vermonters, feeding Vermonters program, and we had taken some testimony last week, which was really in the context of helping the committee understand why this was important. And we ended up making a recommendation to the appropriations committee that they include some funding. And the good news is that they did include some funding. And I don't know whether that news is filtered out of the building yet, but the House Appropriations Committee is planning in the bill that we take out maybe tomorrow to include some funding for the program. So it'd be wonderful to hear your story and your perspective to help us make the case if there are questions.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Very good, that's so exciting to hear. Thank you so much for having me today. My name is Hilary Martin and I'm so I just love talking to you folks. I love the opportunity to talk to our legislators about what I do and what I care about so much and happy to be here today in support of the food bank's budget request. Thank you so much for supporting that in that step. And yeah, very happy to talk with you about Vermonters feeding Vermonters. I come from Burlington, Vermont, and I live here and co own Diggers Mirth Collective Farm. And we rent and manage 15 acres in the Innerveil and there we have profitably raised organic vegetables since 1992. The farm's collectively owned and we support six owners and then anywhere from one to three seasonal employees. And we raise a mix of vegetables that we sell just almost entirely, really entirely in Burlington to stores and restaurants. We also sell to Sodexo at UVM. We sell at one farmer's market and we are fortunate to be a part of the feeding Vermonters program. Our work with the food bank began as a pandemic response, and that was grant funded, but thanks to the food bank's advocacy and organizing, we're now this program has continued and we're now preparing for the 2026 season and hoping for more years to come after that. So here's how it works. The food bank contracts us to create weekly shares of vegetables from July through October. So we are paid retail value for those shares and then we're given control entirely of what we grow and how to distribute the crops through that twelve to sixteen week period that they're being distributed. We grow the crops, we wash and we pack them, we organize them into shares, and then we deliver them once a week to our partners. And those for the last two years have been the family room and feeding Champlain Valley. And they then in turn deliver them to the recipients of the vegetables. At Diggers, we grow crops that are, they're primarily going to new American families. And so we grow the crops that are desired by those recipients. And that's largely informed by our years of selling directly to new Americans at the neighborhood farmer's market that our farm founded back in 1992. So since then, there's waves of people who come and settle in Burlington. So that's included folks from Vietnam, Bosnia, Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, The Congo, Burundi, Nepal, Afghanistan. And so we really have a sense of what people look for and which vegetables bring them the joy and confidence and the comfort of their home cultures. And so our contract with Vermonters Feeding Vermonters, it's really like our favorite account because we're able to provide fresh and healthy food with a premium quality and a sizable quantity, and it gets directly into kitchens of people who need them. Our community partners are really embedded in the community and they know how to get produce to people and they are empathetic, flexible, and professional. They understand proper handling and cooling needs of the vegetables and distribute it super efficiently so that we're not like running all over town to different households. We just do one drop. It's been profitable for us, highly efficient, and it's a super consistent market that gives our farm trust and control and flexibility. And then kindness and caring is at the root of this project and it really radiates outward. It's a total joy to be growing produce for these folks. And I just wanna tip my hat to our community partners. The family room is intimately linked with families across the city and their needs. And people really seek their services for childcare and language help, access to services, etcetera, anything that makes a healthy family. So the organization really knows who is in need and how to get it

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: to

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: them. And you're probably familiar with feeding Champlain Valley. They have the biggest food shelf in Burlington and they distribute food assistance in four counties. And we just love that we can focus on growing vegetables and then they do the work of distributing them. And part of the food bank's funding request is not just for growers, but really for the essential work that these organizations take on. And they're like filling people's pantries and fridges and through emergencies as well so that we can really just focus on growing the food. So the pandemic really changed the landscape of the markets of the farm. It disrupted how and where people shopped and those changes haven't all bounced back. And so since the pandemic, we've seen sales at our retail store accounts dipping a little bit and restaurant accounts are struggling. Farmers market sales really spiked during COVID with outdoor shopping and the stimulus checks probably helped that, but since 2022, they've also been kind of dipping and probably of course, because everybody's costs are rising and budgets and households are tighter. So at the farm, we're trying to weather this erratic conditions of like the pandemic and the economic strain, not to mention climate change, which I'm not sure if y'all remember, but I was also speaking to you last year about the request for emergency funding for farms during climate change. So we're really just trying to navigate all of these things. So we see Vermonters feeding Vermonters as this win win win project. It provides security for farms like ours, which then supports the working lands economy and it provides food security for our neighbors with fresh, healthy local foods that are culturally specific. And then by supporting the most poor and vulnerable among us, our whole community becomes stronger. In closing, submitted some photos of some of the examples of culturally specific vegetables that we grow and some of the shares that we've put together over the years. If you're curious, you can check that out. And thank you so much for taking the time to learn a little bit about our farm and learn about, just listen to what the Vermonters feeding Vermonters program looks like from our end. And thank you for supporting the work of the food bank.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Thank you, Hillary. We you have some time for questions?

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Absolutely.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Okay. Representative Lipsky. Oh, Hillary, thank you.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: And it's as much of a comment to our committee and to you for your information. What Diggers Moore contributes to the cultural and ethnic unique needs of new Americans is really heartwarming and critical, particularly in these times. But what you may not know and the committee may not know, I sit on the National Guard and Veteran Affairs Caucus, and they have had a workforce challenge for recruitment and retention. The number one bright spot for the Vermont Guard has been in the New Americans community. This is direct from general Greg Knight, and he's reported to us. And we've met a number in this community. They're grateful to be here, to serve, and you're nurturing and all the benefits that the guard has for training education in many diverse ways and skills. You've been a wonderful partnership for all of Vermont. So thank you for your role in supporting new Americans.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Thanks for that. Yeah, I kinda wanted to make a note that just from my perspective of selling at that farmer's market now for almost twenty five years, it is really interesting to see new Americans coming through and using like federally and state subsidized programs just at the market to buy vegetables. And a lot of times we see those populations maintained at the farmer's market. And I think the reason is because as they become established in Burlington, they start their own markets and they start their own businesses and they really become part of the local economy. So in case there's kind of reticence about, I guess, the form of, if you wanna call it charity. I think that kind of like what you were saying, it's like the people who come here and once they really get a foothold, they contribute so much in all these different ways. So, it's not like we're asking to just keep giving people stuff. Do you know what I mean? I really see it as this really important step towards, we're welcoming folks, we're making them feel whole so that then they can really be true, a full part of the community.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Representative Bartholomew. I was just curious. You mentioned the stuff you're growing for new Americans. What kind of things are those? Can you describe them? And I'm also wondering, is there stuff that people request from you that you can't grow here or get seeds or whatever?

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Yeah, I guess some of the things that we grow well, example, some of the things we grow, it's like we grow them specifically for those populations. Maybe we were growing them for Vietnamese folks at the farmer's market such that, and an example of that is like bitter melon or bok choy or a certain kind of a hakkorei, which is a small salad turnip. Cilantro is something we grow, we sell to all of our markets. It's one of our second biggest crops, grossing. Of course, hugely popular across all cultures, but that one is always very, very popular with everybody that we grow for. And then there are things that people requested, or we kind of brainstormed with some of our new American grower neighbors because there are many growers in the Intervale and at the Ethan Allen homestead. So we did some tours of their farms and gardens and kind of got some hot tips about things that grow really well. And so things that we added are things like amaranth or callaloo, molliekia, which is another name for that is Egyptian spinach. So no one, I don't know of anybody who knows of molokia outside of someone who's come from Africa or The Middle East. Let's see, other things like we grow a kind of a gourd, like a bottle gourd type of fruit. And then there are a lot of other things that we, carrots or spinach is a hugely popular vegetable. So it's like, we might not grow it specifically. We may have already been growing it, but we just noticed that folks like it and pick it up. African eggplant, Asian eggplant.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: So kind of related to representative Bartholomew's question. You mentioned that you had some photographs, images of of your produce, and I'm not sure where to find that. I just looked on our committee page, and I didn't see it. Is that where you is that where it's supposed to be or is it or is it, like, your your your farm website? I just I was curious to see the photos and I couldn't find them.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Let me see if I can just pull it up and share the screen. Would that be helpful?

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Sure. I think we may have we may have posted it from last week's

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: Okay. I looked I looked today and maybe it was from your original. That that would make sense. I only looked for today.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Okay. Let me see.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Okay.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: I'm sorry. I'm I'm dog sitting for my dad's dog, and he's bad.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I don't

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: know if you can hear him.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Does anyone else have a question while I try and pull this thing up?

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: John? Yeah, my wife asked me this last night and I think you'd be better to define it. What is the difference between a yam and a sweet potato?

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Not sure

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: some of your customers know the difference.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: I think that my understanding is that a sweet potato just has like a, I might be wrong about this though, but think a sweet potato has this a higher sugar content.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: Multiple they do kinds of sweet potatoes too.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Right, I don't know that they're Like a sweet potato, and it might be one of those things where a sweet potato could be a yam, but not vice versa. Do you know what I mean? Sweet potato is like a kind of a yam.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: You grow purple sweet potatoes from Japan?

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: We do sometimes just for fun.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: Those are amazing and so nutritious. Mean, they're like That's a wonder so good. Yeah.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: They're so good. Okay, I found this document here. And now I will share my screen. I'm really good at computers. Let's see. Oh. Well.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: Have to push the little green square, and then usually there's a little blue square that shows at the bottom of your screen, and then it should show up after that.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: And, Emilie, if you're we we don't want to put you through too many hoops, so we we can figure out where to find them on our screen. And and then I think it was last I'm not sure what day it was last week, but twenty fifth Twenty second. Twenty second. Thursday? No. It's Thursday.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: I'm so sorry. And my my computer is telling

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: me Oh, that's alright. Well well, I'll find it. If it was posted last week, I'll just look last week.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Yeah. This was very skeptical. I can't tell you that. Is, but it looks good.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Member)]: Alright. I'm on the documents page. So the twenty seventh.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: We've got some people pulling it up and saying it very delicious. Whatever it is. Whatever it is.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: The bitter melon, I'm not sure you would like it, but I bear I barely like it.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: So just can you tell us, thinking about the cycle, the growing cycle and the time of year, are you now making plans? Where are you in process of planning for this spring?

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Yeah, I am submitting my seed orders today actually. So we try to wrap our crop planning. It's a little late for us. We really try to wrap our crop planning kind of at the end of the year for the next year so we can get on top of seed orders and make sure we can secure a source for everything. So right now we're ordering seeds and securing all of our amendments. So yeah, we have all of those, the crops that we have penciled in for deliveries for that contract. We're already counting on that for sure. That's like part of the plan and counting all of our beds and how everything kind of fits together. We have a pretty, it's pretty small, it's a pretty small farm, so sometimes we're like looking at like half bed, 80 feet of this and we've got it all kind of stitched together in our on our spreadsheets.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Doctor. Nelson has a follow-up, I think.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: How are you? Yeah. I was surprised to hear you just ordered your seeds now and you weren't ready to start planting next week. I know you can't grow bananas or coffee, but not being from the Northeast Kingdom, you get a lot much earlier start than I do. On a typical year, when do you plan on

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: hands in the dirt?

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: We are, you know, we're starting in mid March is when we start in the greenhouse getting plants going. But we're not in we're not in the field until usually like the April is about when we can start working that soil and adding amendments. And sometimes we get seeds in there like that third week.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: That's unfair.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: You should come on down and check

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: it out.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: It's fun.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: I would love to. We

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: can do field trip.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: You should come.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Representative Basil.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Yeah. So I visited the Intervale a few years ago, and there was a big flood that year. And I think it was maybe even just last year or two years ago. I'm wondering what happened to your crops that year, and how did you make make things work? Because when I was there, they were somebody pulled up and said, oh, look at this amazing red eggplant from Afghanistan or something. And it was so cool to see the crops, and they said, but we can't eat any of this because it was all damaged in the flood. So we didn't have the farm security fund in place. What did you do when your crops got flooded?

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Yeah, thanks for the question. We relied on a combination. We had an enormous amount of help from the state through BGAP. We also benefited from being part of the Intervale community And the Intervale Center did a lot of fundraising just from people around in the community. And that was enormously helpful and we we were able to replant and we had, so we just kind of like clean everything up, wait a little while and then replant. There were a couple things that, there were tomato plants that we were actually able to salvage because the flood water, know, didn't, anything that, any blossoms or fruit that got flooded were stripped and then we were able to, you know, get a little, a weak harvest. Obviously the plants were pretty compromised from being flooded. And we had an incredible, like one of our best falls ever. A beautiful carrot crop, tons of kale. We sort Yeah, of the combination of filling in the gaps with help from the state and community and then really just going at it and being pretty aggressive with the replanting. And I'll say we have great partners up at UVM and we've been like really trying to get as much data as possible. Cause as I'm sure you're aware, there is tension with Department of Health and making sure, we wanna make sure obviously that we're planting into safe soil. I think after Irene, Irene was so widespread that there was really like this kind of blanket, like do not plant mandate. And it was really too late in the season to really plant anything anyway. We were really interested in making sure we can have a balance between just like making sure that we're doing the safe thing, but also being able to proceed and use our lands to grow food. So UVM has been really awesome doing soil tests, testing for petroleum, any kind of petroleum residues, heavy metals, and also doing testing for not only after the floods, but we've actually, we get kind of a huge response from the community to help us get ready for the flood. And so now we've asked if UVM can deploy soil testing before the flood so that we can have some side by side data. So, yeah, so that's been we're just like so lucky to be so close to them and have some real dedicated partners.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Thank you for sharing that story. And as you noted, you were in last spring at some point to talk about the the funding program that we were trying to set up for farmers who had experienced disasters of, you know, one sort or another, weather related disasters. And that's also we've had some progress on that. The the bill was in the appropriations committee after we saw it, and it was lingering there over the summer while we were not here. But first thing they did when they got back was to take some testimony in in December, actually, and then they voted that out two weeks ago, and the house approved it.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: I saw that. That's fantastic. Good.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: All right. Well, I'm glad to hear that that news did make it out beyond Montpelier. So we're hopeful that there'll be some funding in the budget for next year for that.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: That's great. Well, thank you all for being allies of farmers. I know you all, some of you all are farmers yourselves, but really appreciate your work out there.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Yep. Thank you for sharing the story.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Okay. Take care everybody.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Bye. Know how They're in the

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: dirt in April. They probably don't have to get out of the dirt until November.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Their ice fishing season ends a little early.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: That's true. It starts later and ends earlier. You're right. There's compromises to everything.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: So, Jamie, you can hear us okay?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: I can. Can you hear me?

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Yes. Thank you. I'm gonna just sort of set the stage here. We're gonna transition from that topic to to the topic of farmland conversion. And we'll remind the committee that we had some testimony last week. In fact, it was two different on two different occasions we heard about a disturbing finding, I guess, that there had been some work done projecting our land conversion and then some actual empirical data to compare what the expectations were. And we were seeing, oh, it's even worse than had been predicted. And they both referred us to your organization. So I really appreciate your being able to make some time this afternoon to come in and just do a little bit of a deeper dive into this subject.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Absolutely. My pleasure. Can someone just confirm? I'm trying to get my screen oriented here that you can see the proper view of my slide deck.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: I think so. It looks like we have a full screen of introductory slide. And Okay. So I'm gonna turn it over to you. Let me just ask you, and I'll have you introduce yourself formally, but where are you? Where are you based?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Sure. Yeah. And thank you for having me. Yeah. I'm Jamie Potter, and I'm senior New England program manager at American Farmland Trust. I do work across all six New England states, but I'm physically in my home in Western Massachusetts right now in a little town called Ashfield.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Oh, yes. Okay.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah. And I believe my colleague Andrea Salazo is in the room with you, but I can't really see. Are you there, Andrea?

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Yeah, I'm here. Yes. You. And I apologize, Andrea. Didn't realize you

[Andrea (American Farmland Trust, External Affairs) — last name unclear]: were I wanted

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: to introduce myself too.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Andrew Salazo, I'm based

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: in Burlington, Vermont. I'm the senior manager for external affairs overseeing our policy mutations for prostate cancer. So great to be here for quality.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you for both of you. So, yeah, do you just want to run through what you've got there, Jamie?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Sure, yeah. And just to note, believe I have about thirty minutes, I have a presentation takes about twenty minutes, a little bit less. So I'm going to just present some of the data I've been sharing around Vermont that you've been hearing about. And then hopefully we'll have about ten minutes or so for questions or if you guys have more time, I'm happy to stick around.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Yeah, we do have a little more time. Wanna be mindful of your time as well, so don't hesitate to say if you need to jump off.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Okay. Thank you. And just a caveat, I am having some camera issues, so my my face may go a little dark if I'm moving around. I'm trying to get it resolved just to preface that. But I am here, and I'm just really excited to be with you all today. I'm just going to throw on my timer here. All right. Yes. So again, thank you for having me. I work at American Farmland Trust. I have been asked to share some of this data around Vermont, especially this sort of came about this past summer when I was invited by the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board to participate in their regional listening sessions as part of the Vermont conservation plan process. So I've known those folks for a while, but really sort of was asked to bring more of our research and data to this process and has really been exciting to see reception and interest in this data. So I've been going around sharing it wherever I've been asked. But I just want to briefly, in case you're not as familiar with American Farmland Trust, just wanted to go briefly through the work that we do. You may know us from our no farms, no food bumper sticker, but you may not know exactly some of the work that our organization does. So American Farmland Trust, we are a national agricultural land trust. We were founded in 1980, and we work across the country to save the land that sustains us. We do that by protecting farmland, promoting sound farming practices, and keeping farmers on the land. We have about 200, 25, two fifty staff, something like that nationally. And we have a really stellar team of boots on the ground staff right here in New England, including folks who do live in Vermont, including my fabulous colleague, Andrea, who's there with you in the room, doing all kinds of work from climate to policy to land protection, the whole gamut. We've got a tremendous team, many of them former or current farmers themselves. High level, we are doing a lot of great work in Vermont. I'm not going to go into all the specifics because it was too long really for this slide, but just sharing the fact that we have been doing a lot of great work with farmers and other partners on the ground to advance climate resilience and adaptation planning. We offer on farm peer learning opportunities for farmers. We've been providing a lot of financial and technical assistance through micro grants and cost share programs, as well as our great policy and research teams partnering on various efforts to advance aspects of our mission on the ground in Vermont with our partners. I'm really here to talk about data. Like I said, something that AFT has always done since our inception is really try to produce data and research that helps folks all across the country understand the threats to America's farmland. And so our most recent series of studies was called Farms Under Threat. And it looked at development trends from 2001 to 2016 across the country. And we found across the board that 11,000,000 acres of farmland were fragmented or lost across the country during that time period, which translates to about 2,000 acres per day. And something of note that this study really did for the first time, that's really relevant to this conversation in Vermont, is that for the first time we were really able to distinguish between different types of farmland conversion that we were seeing happening across the landscape. So historically, were able to really understand more of that left side of the spectrum that you're looking at, more of that urban and highly developed use where something was a farm and we go and look back at a map, and it's since been converted to something obviously not a farm, like a housing complex, a shopping mall, a parking lot. The more nuanced type of farmland conversion that we've been able to kind of newly understand and get a sense of is what we call this low density residential development or LDR. And you all are very familiar with this type of development. It's all over Vermont, right? But it's really this sort of large lot sprawl type development where perhaps a house lot is getting sold off, it becomes a lawn, maybe part of it's still an active, inactive agriculture. It's not necessarily gone all at once. But what our research showed was that nationally in that fifteen year time period, land that was in LDR was 23 times more likely to fully flip out of agriculture in that fifteen year period than other types of ag land. And we call this as multiplier effect. And so I'm going be referencing this sort of multiplier effect throughout the conversation today. So what did we find in Vermont? Well, we found that from 2001 to 2016, over 21,000 acres of Vermont ag land were developed or compromised. And so interestingly in that time period, about 17% was that full conversion out of agriculture to that urban and highly developed use. But 83% of that was into that low density residential type of development. So again, maybe that farm is not completely gone, but it's very vulnerable. And if you look at the bottom left hand corner, that multiplier effect comes back into play, where we found that land in LDR in 2001 in Vermont was five times more likely to fully flip out of agriculture in that fifteen year period than other types of ag land. This study also created this national agricultural land protection scorecard, where we ranked each state based on its policy responses in response to the level of conversion threat in that state. So just want to highlight that Vermont is doing really well. Vermont is really leading nationally among its really important policies and programs that it's been leading on to address this concern. Based on our calculations, it ranked fifth nationally. I can share that data set with you all, but just really want to uplift the fact that Vermont is doing a lot of things right. Our most recent study was called Farms Under Threat 2040. And what we did was we essentially took those 02/2016 projections and we projected them out farther into the future, into the year 2040, under different kinds of potential development scenarios. So for Vermont, we had a business as usual scenario. What if we just keep chugging along how we were? We projected a conversion of about 41,000 acres of Vermont's farmland, most of that into LDR, you can see there in the orange color. We also created a runaway sprawl scenario, which presumes that a lot more farmland is unfortunately, that low density residential type of development is sweeping across the countryside and displacing our farmland. And we projected nearly 62,000 acres of Vermont's farmland might be converted under that scenario, again, mostly to LDR. And then there was a better built cities or better built towns type of scenario, of course, one that we're promoting, which is one in which policymakers, land use planners, land trusts, all of us working together are promoting more compact development, reducing sprawl, protecting more farmland, etcetera. And so under that scenario, a little over 21,000 acres of projected conversion. And I wanna uplift the fact if you haven't seen it, that we also have these great state specific pages and really wanna I'll send links after this meeting, you all have access to these, but this can be really helpful in kind of translating the threat into sort of the equivalency of the number of farms, the amount of money in farm output, dollars 24,000,000, 700 jobs. This can be really important and helpful to get out into the communities and the halls of Congress or at the state house where you all are based. Our data is also really great in that you can drill down to the county level. So into your own districts, or can be very useful for planning agencies, or land trusts, or other organizations working in a particular county or region. So I just pulled a couple examples. Here we have Chittenden County where you can kind of see the potential projected breakdown under these different scenarios. Again, a lot of low density residential type development, but a pretty significant amount of projected loss to urban and highly developed use under these scenarios in Chittenden County. As opposed to Caledonia County, more rural, you can see vast majority into low density residential development. That's really the primary threat, much smaller amount of potential conversion into UHD type of development. So AFT did all these projections. We got this information out to states. We had all these webinar series, really just wanting to empower people with this information. And I'm sure a lot of you saw the census of agriculture came out a couple of years ago. And you may have been alarmed as many of us were to see that just in that five year period from 2017 to 2022, five year period of the census report, Vermont reported a loss of 19,547 acres in farms or 1.6%. Again, we can't compare sort of this dataset, which is reported by farmers, as you know, to our spatial dataset. But for those of us who nerd out about these things, obviously kind of raised some alarm bells that perhaps we were either on track or ahead of schedule in terms of the amount of farmland that we might be losing. And so when VHCb reached out to me this summer, like I said, to have me participate in these regional listening sessions, I was really excited to be able to go to our GIS mapping team here at AFT. And they offered to do a really interesting ground truthing analysis of the farms under threat 2040 data, where they actually were able to ground truth the first seven years from 2016 to 2023. So the first seven years toward the 2040 projections and help us understand what's already been happening on the ground. Are we seeing conversion happening where we projected it would be? Is it happening as quickly as we thought it might be? So I know you can't really see this map. We have a big poster that VHCb has printed somewhere, but I'm going to walk you through some of our findings. So what our GIS researchers found is that from 2016 to 2023, again, the first seven years in our 2040 study, Vermont has already converted 19832 acres of its farmland. So that means we've already converted 48% of what we had forecasted to lose by 2040 under business as usual scenario. That means the conversion is happening 65% faster than we had forecasted under business as usual and even 10% faster than we had projected under that runaway sprawl scenario. So we're ahead of schedule, essentially. We were also really curious, and so we asked our researchers to drill down to help us understand what type of farmland has already been converted. And to me and others, this has been really interesting that that the vast majority of farmland conversion is happening on Vermont's hay fields. Over 12,000 acres of hay fields have already been converted in that seven year time period. We don't know exactly why this is happening. We can't exactly correlate it. But you can probably imagine farmers who might be struggling, landowners might be selling off some of their hay fields for house lots. Maybe it's a lower value crop in some of their other land. There could be a variety of reasons, but really interesting to note. The next highest type of farmland getting converted is woodland associated with farmland, so over 3,700 acres. So landowners selling off pieces of their woodland for development, and that's followed by grassland and pasture, then corn, then fallow idle cropland, and then we combined all the other categories. We were also interested obviously into what type of development this farmland is getting converted into. So we can't really compare apples to apples of our farms under threat spatial analysis with this sort of ground truthing analysis that our team did. But the closest they were able to come up with based on the national land cover database that they used was that approximately about 76% of this conversion has gone into low density residential development, and about 24% is more of that total farm loss that urban and highly developed land use type. So of course, we have been asking ourselves and others have been asking, why are we losing farmland faster than AFT projected in our initial analysis? So there could be a number of reasons for that. One of those is that, during the initial study period that 02/2016, there was a housing recession in that time period. So if we had projected, which we did those trends out to 2040, we could have been under forecasting the amount of development that was likely to occur. But on the other side of that, we know there's been this subsequent housing boom, this unanticipated move of people from urban areas to rural areas during COVID-nineteen. We know a lot of people saw Vermont as very desirable and left the cities and wanted to do remote work and have been moving to places like Vermont. And then who knows right into the future, we're in this technically sort of post COVID era, perhaps some of these development trends may even out over time. But our real takeaway from our analysis is that we feel that farmland was developed more quickly and significantly in the first seven years of the study than was projected. So given how much land was consumed so quickly, we do feel that farmland conversion rates are likely to exceed our forecasts. There's also a lot of other compounding threats and issues going on at the same time. So you all are very familiar with this. We have an aging farmer population here in Vermont, nearly forty percent of Vermont producers are 65. We know anecdotally many haven't undertaken any estate planning or succession planning. We know that leaves their land potentially vulnerable to going out of production or something happening to it. On the other side of that, we know this incoming generation of Vermont farmers who are really itching to get onto the land, are really stymied by the high cost of farmland and housing in Vermont. Especially we know that for nearly third of all Vermont producers who are new and beginning farmers, and the nearly 10% of producers who are young farmers, we know they face added barriers to land access, things like access to capital, student loan debt, even knowing where to look to find these properties. We know these folks are really struggling to get onto the land. So we have this transition gap between this exiting generation and incoming generation, and many folks in Vermont working on this, I'm sure yourselves included. But this is obviously a significant factor in why farmland loss is happening. And then of course, as you all well know, just the severe impacts that Vermont farmers have been navigating for years and years, but especially in the last few years from severe flooding to drought, pest diseases, all of this obviously impacting the current and future viability of Vermont farmland and potentially being a reason that perhaps some of these farms are going out of agriculture. And of course, are many other compounding factors I noted here. But to summarize some of the takeaways from these data and trends that I've shared. So first, farmland conversion is happening faster than projected. Most of it to low density residential type of development. Most of it sort of on the outskirts of cities and towns, primarily on our hay fields, woodlands associated with farmland and pasture land. We know we have an aging farmer population without potentially some successors lined up and that transition gap to a next generation really struggling to afford farmland and housing. We have these increasing economic and climate threats that are further impacting farm viability. And also sort of coupled with the fact that despite Vermont really being the gold standard of farmland conservation nationally, and having done so much work in this area, still only about 15 to 20% of all Vermont's agricultural land is permanently protected. That really leaves the remaining 75 to 80% of Vermont's ag land vulnerable to going out of production. So this is kind of my final summary slide. I shared this at the Vermont Farm to Plate Conference. We had a whole panel of really wonderful experts from housing to land trust to planners to policy folks. And this is just really highlighting the fact that this is obviously, as you all well know, a very complex problem that requires holistic solutions that so many of you are working to advance and so many amazing organizations on the ground are already working really hard on. But to uplift the fact that to really address this mounting crisis, we need to pick up the pace of land protection, continue to invest funding in permanently protecting land, continuing to address affordable housing, supporting the incoming generation of farmers in navigating the barriers to secure an affordable access to land, supporting and exiting generation and passing on transferring their farms and businesses, really drilling, continuing to drill into farm viability and financing, really with farm viability being such a critical piece of the puzzle. And of course, land use planning from regional planning to local zoning, all of it is just so critical to being able to help support the effort to keep development off of the most important farmland while supporting affordable housing and other infrastructure and things that are needed throughout the state of Vermont. So I'm going to end there. I know that's a lot of information that I've presented to you rather quickly, but just wanted to share this information I have been sharing across the state and want to open it up now to any questions or comments or reflections that you all might have. Thank you.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Thank you, Jamie.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: We had a couple of questions early on, so we might have you keep close to sharing in case we need to go back to look at the slides.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Okay.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Can do that. Representative O'Brien, they had a question.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Yeah. Jamie, just in your introduction, I wondered if the if your trust actually holds easements? Do they act like a land trust account?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yes, yes. We hold many thousands of acres of easements across the country. So we do operate as land protection organization. We have a whole land protection team. Here in New England, we did actually a lot of the early easements that have since been handed off to local land trusts, but we tend not to hold as many easements in Vermont or New England because we have such tremendous local land trust partners to do that work. But we do do a lot of support work from education to local land trust to capacity building to advising on land protection deals.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Thank you. Two questions.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Yep.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: So your low density housing, you know, Vermont, we have this 10 acre rule. The right. Two fifty. That probably doesn't work too well. We wanna make urban housing development. Of course, with the new act one eighty one and tier one a and one b, perhaps, will tighten that up. Are you familiar with our act one eighty one?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: I am still learning. I'm still learning your state. So we are you may post some great ideas. Don't I don't fully understand or have answers to, but I can always get back to you with reflections if I can't answer. Yeah.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: And then, you know, your loss of pasture land, grassland, pasture land in into low density housing. I think that probably got a lot to do with the economics of farming and these lands not being as productive as the cropland, the corn land. Mhmm. And that's why you're seeing such a more of a loss there. People buying hillside farms and

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: They get ten, twenty lots and putting mansions on them.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah, and our colleague Sam Smith, who you might know from the Intervale, he was one of our panelists, at the Farm to Plate Conference and was reflecting that the exact data we shared is exactly what he's been seeing in meeting with landowners and just his work across the landscape, that he was not at all surprised by the fact that it was hayfields and pasture land really being some of the first to be sold off given some of the challenges with especially dairy and other larger operations really trying to sustain and keep going. In order to do that, many are having to sell off house lots, which is really unfortunate and really speaks to the need for, again, I'm not a financial expert or viability expert, but how we can continue to support farms that are in a place where they may have to sell off these lots to remain viable, what are other interventions? What are other ways to support them so that that ends up becoming more of a last resort? What support are they not getting or what other interventions are needed?

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Representative Burke.

[Andrea (American Farmland Trust, External Affairs) — last name unclear]: Yeah, I was wondering, more on the data side, you have a lot of figures on acres of land, and it mentions fragmented land and also there's open. I think it was open development was also one of your terms, but curious to know how the data is actually taken in terms of, is it, are you factoring just like the land that's currently not, it's no longer being cropped anymore or is it, when it mentions fragmented land, does that mean like if say it's a 10 acre field and a two acre house lot is put on it, is it saying that all 10 acres have now been developed or is it just saying that two of the acres have been developed? Does that make sense? I'm curious on the ground what it looks like more, for accurate

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: analysis on my end.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah, it's a great question. I'm probably not gonna do the best answering it. I think the initial data set is through the farms under threat is based on sort of housing census tracks and kind of the tenth percentile of each of those census blocks and comes up with that for each county, and that's how it figured out for that larger scale national analysis. For the ground truthing analysis that my colleagues did recently, I'd have to ask them more specifically, but they use the national land cover data set and crop layer data set. And I'm guessing it's when it flipped from being into one of those land use types into another land use type, but I'd have to get back to you on kind of the specifics of how they undertook that analysis.

[Andrea (American Farmland Trust, External Affairs) — last name unclear]: Yeah, I just noticed a lot of our farmland might have a two acre house lot carved out of it, But they're still paying the last, the other eight acres. I just for accuracy, trying to understand whether it's that would be viewed as 10 acres now developed or two. Yes. Well, appreciate that.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Yeah, I think that's a pretty critical distinction. Representative Bos- Yeah,

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: last year, we spent a little time discussing the idea of letting farmers use part of their land to build housing, to continue to allow farming to happen on the land, but to have perhaps space for a younger farmer to move in or the older original farmers would move into the new house and keep the old house there, but still to keep some of the tax protection and that kind of thing. And I think we had a fair amount of sympathy to the idea because so many farmers aren't able to continue their farms because they can't find a place for people to live to continue. And then I talked to some folks from the housing conservation arena, and they were really hesitant about doing that even on a very limited basis. But I noticed, like, in your slides, your green zone included some examples of transition of land on a on a very limited basis. So I guess I'm wondering what would your thoughts be about making some flexibility about developing a small amount of farmland in order to make extra housing to continue the farming? I mean, that's only related to the farming operation.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah, I mean, really defer to the folks at Vermont Housing and Conservation Board. I mean, my understanding is that's what they do, in that they are really thoughtfully sort of integrating the fact that farmers need housing, at least in their more modern easements, I can't speak to their older easements, but really trying to take into consideration the housing needs of permanently protected farm. I'm personally in favor of getting creative around farmer and farm worker housing, whether it's inside of a conservation easement or outside of it or adjacent or in partnership with a conservation land trust partnering with an affordable housing trust. I think there's lots of different models and tools and ways that this can go. But I think it really does need to be figured out because especially if it's a livestock operation, as you all well know, you have to live on the farm. You can't live another town away. And so I think it's really crucial and the affordability piece, if folks can't afford to stay in their communities or the workers can't afford to live there, it's not going to be sustainable for the future of that farm. So I'm in favor of it, but still would defer to the Vermont partners on that.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Solar farms, Y'all still consider that farmland or because, theoretically, once the solar panels die, they can be yanked out and it'll go back into farmland? Or are you, like some of us, you consider a loss of productive acres?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Such a great question. AFT has a stance where we're not in support of solar that displaces farmland. We are very much in support of smart solar or dual use solar type of facilities that really are designed with agriculture in mind, where animals are grazing under the panels, where tractors and crops can happen under the panels. There's a lot of great examples of that happening across New England and a lot of emerging companies that are really working to create that type of technology. I've seen these examples myself, and I think they are so appealing to many farmers who would otherwise maybe have to sell out to other kinds of solar companies or other kinds of non farm uses because they need to remain viable. A solution like dual use solar, which AFT does promote and we have policy recommendations and such all about, which I can send you all a link to that's on our website. We really do feel is a win win win for farmers because it can really help them be able to remain viable and stay on the land without displacing agriculture. And in some cases could even have beneficial effects like providing shade cover for livestock and all kinds of other potentially co benefits of these types of newer technologies.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Do you know, Jamie, whether just in terms of the data here, again, going back to the question of what was being measured, if there were solar, but it would go use, is that being counted as a loss or the conversion?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: That's a good question. I'd have to check on that. I I I don't think it would be, but I'm not sure the level of the finite level that they're going down to. So I need to confer with my research colleagues on that. It's a great question.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Representative Lipsky. Thank you, Jamie. The amount of data you shared with us was really helpful and quite riveting. It should be no surprise to you that everyone on this committee cares deeply about conserving and keeping active ag land, ag land as well as forest land. So there there was one I noticed it seems like about 27 or 28% of the farmland lost, I guess it was in that the last census, 12/1927 was actually ag land, and 3,751 acres were forest lands associated with farmland or sloths, so almost 30% or so. So this is from your perspective, there's a value. We like forest land remaining connected to other forest land, but my observation going around rural Vermont that we also have a demographic crisis, and we have a a workforce crisis. And rural Vermont communities badly need residents, not just to farm, but to participate in their communities, their schools, serve as employees all over rural Vermont. And those models you showed of the sort of urban landscapes, which are brought around Vermont to the you know, as rep Nelson said, the 10 acre rule and rep Bos-Lun referred to, we have been trying to steer and take down barriers so families can transition ownership, whether it's within the family or to a young farmer, which there are a lot of folks who come to Vermont wanna farm. What what what if you have a hierarchy of assets? I I like the idea of keeping prime ag land open. And if you can find on the edge of a field or it into the woodland where you can convert to residential that could serve the community, whether they're directly farming or in other services. It seems to be there's the alarm of losing farmland in Vermont at this amount is disturbing to conversion. Do you have any moral guidance for it or asphalt guidance?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: I mean, I think it's challenging. Folks have pointed out to me that I don't remember the statistics, but in terms of Vermont's housing goals, we're so far beneath meeting those. And so we need more housing. It's got to go somewhere. And so I would say that, yes, for the housing that's relevant to the farmland, I think there's ways to design that housing that tries to minimize its impact on the best ag fields and creates enough housing to help sustain the long term viability of that farm operation. For non farm housing, I think there are a lot of zoning or other measures to really try to incentivize clustering that housing or designing or putting that housing in such a way that it's not just going to sort of chew up every last farm field in Vermont, but try in some way to design it in such a way to not have it displace farmland. I think that's really complicated because I've also heard the really wonderful point in one of my talks that I gave that a lot of people move to Vermont, we want to promote infill, but a lot of people move to Vermont, they want to have their own 10 acre homestead. They want to be out in the countryside. That the the housing we want to promote may not be the kind of housing that people want. And I don't know how to resolve any of this. I'm just bringing some of the data, but I think so much of it is parcel dependent, it's landowner dependent for conservation projects. These happen one landowner at a time, one project at a time. But I do think from like a policy lens, from a zoning lens, I think there likely are interventions that probably could help and help remove the burden on the conservation community. We're never going to be able to protect that remaining 80% of all of Vermont's ag land. We need to find other ways to keep those farms viable, to help you know, reduce the potential impact from development on some of that farmland. And there are a lot of moral choices here, I wish I had more answers. To

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: be clear, Vermont needs homesteaders. Vermont second homeowners and vacation homeowners bring a lot of global capital to the state, but they don't serve the needs of a sustainable economy in Vermont other than the tax value of million dollar homes.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah. And

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: and that's a huge challenge for the world.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah. I agree.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Who's next? Representative O'Brien? Jamie,

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: you've probably heard of this New England Feeds New England project or not sustainable jobs on partners

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: on it.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: And I just wondered, looking at your data, can you project sort of out in New England where we passed the point where we could grow our own food because of loss and conversion?

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: That's such a good question. I think the next data project is getting together with our New England Feeding New England friends to try to mesh these data sets because I don't know the answer to it, but I am alarmed because that whole project is to see how much are we already feeding ourselves, what would it take, and my data is sort of the opposite. It's like, how much are we losing? And so I think that would be a really interesting analysis to say what type of farmland are we losing, where are we losing it, and what does that mean for the future of our ability to feed ourselves according to England Food Vision, New England Feeding New England analysis. It's next on my list because I am so eager to answer more of those questions and for you all to have that information.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: The chairman. John, to that question, Jane made great data from Rhode Island, from Massachusetts, Connecticut, all over New England of the of the conversion rate. You got a lot of that data, and we did hear very important testimony a year or two years ago originally, two years ago that you you two bring a lot of good data together. Who

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: is it that you heard that that data

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: We had a testimony two years ago from, you know Alan and Jake. New England, feeding New England.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: From

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: all those, you know, Rhode Island had its specialty products mass. I mean, it was really and that issue came up, you know, one of the challenges was the loss of productive farmland. But all your incredible data, you could work well with them.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Absolutely. And my understanding is they're about to complete a protected lands dataset as well, which we have some high level data, but it's not as accurate as we would like it to be. And so I'm really eager to see that data set because that will really kind of give more of a be able to look with a fine tooth comb in terms of more precisely how much of our agricultural land is permanently protected and which is not. And yeah, just overlaying these data sets, I think will be really fascinating and as well just help to speak to that urgency. I think that's why I've been asked to talk about this in so many different places all across New England, because I am really trying to convey everybody's doing everything right. But there's just this added urgency where we are seeing farmland loss. Some of it's going to happen regardless, but it can be happening less or we can be encouraging certain types of development or uses as opposed to others. So I think it really is a call to action. And Vermont has really been extremely interested in this data set. I've been agreeing to present on it all across the state. And I am really just excited to see, given the level of sophistication of so many of our partners in Vermont, what we can come up with together as some potential policy interventions, programmatic interventions, whatever those may be, to try to come together and address this problem from many different angles.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: There's no easy answers. We all have, I think, shared values share among each other that compete with each other at the same time for the different uses of land. Other questions?

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Just one additional comment. Another interesting data set would be to look at farm profitability because wherever farms are profitable, I would say the rate of loss and conversion is far less than just when you look historically, at Connecticut and Massachusetts, Rhode Island dairy farms and how they went out very similarly to what's happening in Vermont. Then you look at Vermont and it's going to be the smaller Hill Farm dairies going out before the big dairies that are on some of the nicest soil in Vermont that can do large crop operations. So it'd be interesting to overlay that and see, you can almost predict where we're gonna lose farms.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: That's a great suggestion. That'd be really interesting analysis. Thank you.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: Don't look this year.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Oh,

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Well, farms made money. This wouldn't even be a conversation.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: It wouldn't even be a conversation. Yep. We'd be we'd be buying houses and tearing them out. That's right.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Or the other

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: way. Representative Bartholomew. Just echoing what you're saying, but also you'd have to overlay, I believe, age of the farmer. Yeah. Because just because it's profitable, if there isn't an heir who wants to take it on,

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: sell it. Right. Yeah. It was interesting to see that the map that you had of New England map of value of land or what land is priced at and and how actually it didn't seem like Vermont was the most expensive at all in neighboring states or several times what

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Yeah.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Acre cost here. Yeah.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: And I think that's why more people, so many folks I know where I live here in Massachusetts, I mean, have the third highest farm real estate values in the nation and in Mass, second only to Rhode Island and New Jersey. Connecticut's right after us. So I think folks are working hard in Massachusetts to get access to land, but I know so many have just given up and they're looking to more Northern New England places where it is slightly more affordable. But we know that even given that relative affordability, that it really still is cost prohibitive for so many farmers to be able to take over these farms. It also might be that some of the farms that are the ones that need taking over are maybe much larger than that next generation is looking for. So there might be, can that farm be split into a few smaller farms? Or how do we transition that existing operation of that larger farm into another kind of operation that potentially could be more viable for a next generation of a farmer or cooperative of farmers? So there's lots of considerations, but yeah, it's still cost prohibitive, unfortunately, for many of the next generation.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Richard Nelson, did you have a No, I'm good. Thank you. Jamie, okay, we got maybe one more question. Yes.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: It's really the same observation as Ruth Hardy said. I had this autumn, I was went to Windsor, and I cut over toward Brownsville through West Windsor. And there are some incredible, it's miles of beautiful rolling sidehill farms. Also, some had a gate, beautiful fencing, beautiful restored barn, and very beautiful house. No people there and no animals on the land, but it was stunning real estate as you headed over towards South Woodstock. Mhmm. My question is, is that considered farmland? They are not destroying it. There is a what? It's an antique McMansion. It was a, know, beautiful you know, it wasn't brand new construction. The land is beautiful, but it's not an active act.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: It's a good question.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Lot of horse charging, not favorable. Yeah.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Mean, if they're just mowing it, right? Is really a farm? No. Maybe it has potential to become a farm again. It's not a shopping mall, that's good. But yeah, I think to your point, it's such a major challenge of folks coming in and buying up protected land, luckily, or buying up unprotected land. Luckily, Vermont does have the provision that at least protected land has to transition to real qualified farmers that I think has kept that from happening in many situations. But yeah, is it a farm? Not really. I don't think.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: What's the site of solar?

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: What I wanna know is when you drove through most of my district and almost passed our farm, why didn't you stop and say hello? We were probably on

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: a mission. It was a, I don't know, the three, try to look at an equine that was in that neighborhood. Anyway,

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: we were a little north of where you are, I think.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Maybe not, I guess. Little. No. I I'm just shaking your chin. No. Know. How about just maybe I didn't know you other than our few conversations we had prior to the English committee, so I wasn't comfortable enough. My apologies.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Why don't we why don't we allow Jamie to get back to whatever else she has to do this afternoon? And thank you for coming in. Thank you both.

[Hilary Martin (Co-owner, Diggers Mirth Collective Farm)]: Yes.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Thank you very much. I appreciate that information. And if you do have information for send along, we'll make sure that it's distributed to everybody.

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: Great. I'll happily follow-up with some links. I'll get those to Patricia.

[Rep. Richard Nelson (Ranking Member)]: I love the maps. Yeah. I love maps. I wanted to be on the map building team.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member)]: Well, thank you all

[Jamie Potter (Senior New England Program Manager, American Farmland Trust)]: so much. Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for all that you do for Vermont. Appreciate your Thank you.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Acting Chair)]: Take care. Bye, Andrea. Bye. Alright. We'll take a break, Linda. And we'll be back in, let's say, ten minutes.