Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Once you are ready to begin your formal testimony, then you just have to say your name for the record. Okay. And, yeah, we are.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: So, yes, I'm Carina Daly, the chair of the CAC, and I'll pass it over to Andrew

[Alison Stasnow (CAC member, Jericho; graduate student, UVM)]: who can introduce our CAC.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Yes, Citizens Advisory Committee. Thank you.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Andrew Milligan from Charlotte, member of the CSC. I recently retired

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: from a long career with

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: I'm Bob Fisher from Berry. I am the water quality superintendent for the city of South Burlington.

[Alison Stasnow (CAC member, Jericho; graduate student, UVM)]: I'm Alison Stasnow, I live in Jericho and I guess you'd say I'm the youth representative of the CAC. I'm a graduate student at the University of Vermont.

[Denise Smith (Executive Director, Vermont Council on Rural Development; CAC member)]: I'm Denise Smith, I live in Franklin County in St. Albans and I'm the executive director of the Vermont Council on rural development, here as the Citizens Advisory Committee, Hamburg, who will share with you my other hat. It's nice to be here again.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And then online.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Hi,

[Brett Bowden (CAC member, Burlington; retired UVM watershed science professor and former Lake Champlain Sea Grant director)]: I'm Brett Bowden. I'm a retired professor of watershed science and planning from the University of Vermont, where I was also the director of the Lake Champlain Sea Grant. That's a NOAA funded program that is focused on, using and developing knowledge, to benefit the environment and ecology of of the economy of, Lake Champlain. I'm, from Burlington and a member of the Citizens Advisory Committee.

[Laurie Fisher (CAC member, Williston; retired Executive Director, Lake Champlain Committee)]: Hello, everyone. I'm Laurie Fisher. I'm the recently retired executive director of the Lake Champlain Committee, a nonprofit dedicated to lake protection and stewardship, and I'm a Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee member from Williston. Thanks for having us.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you all for joining us, and Yeah. We're happy to hear from anybody, all of you, and if you wanna trade places when the time comes, that's probably the best way to do it. But let's go let's get started.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Yeah. So I'm gonna do broad as the chair, I'm gonna do broad picture of who we are and why we're here and what we've been up to. And then I'm going to pass it to each one of us. So we'll have each have a little time to say something about our action plan and our priorities for this year. But thank you. I'm Carina Daly. I am the chair of the CAC Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain's Future. We were established in 1989, So we actually predate the Lake Champlain Basin program. So we're 37 years old. And this is my, I believe it's like my fifth year as a CAC member. And I took the chair role just in this past year. So new to the chair role, but we're a 14 member committee. So 10 citizens, we're all volunteers, and we represent business, recreation, sports, science, environmental advocacy organizations, farming, So really trying to have a broad representation across the watershed and within all the different industries. We have four legislative representatives, two from the Senate and two from the House that support us. We meet monthly, and we serve as a liaison to the public to inform, collect data, and share information on Lake Champlain related to wildlife, water quality, and human connection.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Can you remind us who the legislative member?

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Yes. We have Senator Martin Gulick, Senator Randy Brock, and on the House side, we have Representative Carol O'Brien and Representative Brannigan, Carolyn Brannigan. What else? So we also work in partnership with the New York and Quebec CACs. So there are three CACs around the lake because we share the lake together. So on issues such as invasive species, where really it's about the well, on many of the issues, it's about the health of the lake and the broad perspective. So we work with those CACs as well. And then each CAC has a seat on the steering committee for Lake Champlain Basin Program. So we sit on that as well. Our legislative charge is to create an action plan every year with the priorities for lake health. And so that is what we're here to present with you to you today. And with that, I'll pass it over to Denise. And

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: I'll move, I think.

[Denise Smith (Executive Director, Vermont Council on Rural Development; CAC member)]: Yes. Okay. All right, my stuff is easier. Nice, thank you. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for having us. My name is Denise Smith, for the record, and I live in Franklin County. I'm from St. Albans, Vermont. And I've been on the CAC for a number of years now. And what I just want to say is our charge as an organization or as a group of people of public is to bring this document to the legislature every year. So I've been in this committee room a number of times sharing our findings or our information. And what I'll say is over the years, priorities have shifted maybe, our emphasis have changed. But generally, the main message that we have is that we're really here because the lake can't speak for itself. We're the voice of clean water. And to have clean water, the image created this Venn diagram for really simplifying our message. The health of the lake, we need clean water, healthy ecosystems, and climate resilience. And to get there, we have to have biodiversity, water restoration, and watershed management. And that's really what our plan covers. This year, we've simplified it even more, and we have four priority actions. So on the second page, you can see our top priorities. And we go into a little bit more details in terms of how we can get there. But it's really about advancing flood mitigation and climate resilience, addressing water contaminants, investing in aquatic invasive species management. And when we say invest in, we mean continuous investment. Sometimes over the years, there's been less funding, more funding. But really, that continuous investment is what we know works really well. And I'll let my colleagues speak more to that. And then also public access. Really, people don't care about what they don't have access to. And so really, the importance of having access and sharing Champlain, but all of the surface waters of the state with people and the public. It is a public good, right, as many of the things are. But again, the fish, the lake can't speak for itself. So it's a public good for us to be able to speak for it. And it's a privilege to be able to do this and to be here with all of you. And I know there's a lot of incredibly important decisions that need to be made this year, but we're just grateful that you've taken the time to listen to this really important feature. One of the things that I like to share is Lake Champlain, it's only in a couple of counties, but impacts over 50% of the land in the state of Vermont because of how much water flows into Lake Champlain. I think I'm passing it to Alison. Great, thank you so much.

[Alison Stasnow (CAC member, Jericho; graduate student, UVM)]: All right. Hi, everybody. My name is Alison Spazic. I live in Jericho. So I'm going to be talking a little bit more about our first priority category, which is advanced flood mitigation and climate resilience. And I'm going to be tag teaming this with my colleague, Brett, up on the screen there. So as many of you know, Vermont, and especially the Lake Champlain Basin has been affected by all 25 federally declared disasters in the last fifteen years. And it's also been reported that Vermont ranks seventh in the nation in overall federally declared disasters within that same time period. So that's seventh overall, that's not even per capita. On a per capita basis, we rank fourth in overall spending on disasters. And so it's clear that this is affecting our communities, our economies, our environment, our working landscapes, certainly agricultural producers are heavily affected by the variability in our changing climate. So we had two years of heavy rains and multiple floods followed by last year, severe drought and record setting low lake levels. And so this is a problem in Vermont and especially in Lake Champlain Basin. So we really support here at the CAC nature based solutions that are gonna be essential in combating some of the worst effects of climate change and also helping to mitigate against both extreme precipitation and drought. So those are things like conserving and restoring Lake Champlain's headwater systems, our floodplains, river corridors, wetlands, soils, and riparian buffers. To do this, we endorse full staffing and cohesion and collaboration within all the state agencies that are working on watershed restoration. We also support collaboration and cohesion among all the different organizations around the state that are working on these issues. And so that's an important priority for us. So definitely our natural infrastructure is gonna be important for helping us create a landscape that's able to soak up excess flood water, as well as buffer against times of drought. But our physical infrastructure is just as important to consider because we've seen many of our roads and bridges, river crossing infrastructure, other riverside structures and buildings being heavily affected by recent flooding. And so we support all the efforts to right size culverts and bridges, as well as dam removal In many cases, because this is going to help increase aquatic organism passage, it's going to help reduce erosion and nutrient loading to our waterways, as well as make us more flood resilient and increase public safety. Flooding is certainly a safety concern as well as a concern to our state budget and our economy and livelihoods. And so this is an issue that kind of affects all of us in some way, certainly Lake Champlain. And a lot of the solutions we have to flood resilience have so many other co benefits in terms of water quality and aquatic organism passage. So these are issues that we think are important to continue to support with funding and research. And I think that's when I'm going to turn it over to Brett to especially talk more about this priority's impact on agriculture.

[Brett Bowden (CAC member, Burlington; retired UVM watershed science professor and former Lake Champlain Sea Grant director)]: Thanks, Alison. My name is Brett Bowden. I, live in Burlington, and I am a member of the Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee. I'm gonna guide you through the remainder of our priorities that are associated with, flood management. You can find these on page three of the action plan brief. As Allison has just stated, increased investments in sustainable agriculture, forests, working lands through these nature based solutions have created cost effective initiatives that reduce phosphorus runoff to our waters. However, the intensifying impacts of climate change and oversubscribed grant programs continue to pose challenges to water quality. Agriculture often comes under fire as a source of problems that threaten Lake Champlain, particularly for sediment and phosphorus that are known to promote harmful algal blooms in the lake. Given that agriculture occupies almost 25% of the land use in Vermont, it's inevitable that some agriculture that agricultural activity is going lead to some sediment and phosphorus releases. The farmers want to minimize these losses too. Beyond their own concerns for water quality, the erosion of nutrient rich soil is a significant economic loss for farmers, and spreading manure that's been diluted with rainwater onto wet fields presents serious problems for them and their operations. And so programs and practices that help farmers reduce soil loss, soil and nutrient loss, would be welcomed by everyone. Additional state funding to support these programs and implement these practices is essential to sustain our vibrant local farm economy and to reach our climate and water quality goals. This need has become particularly urgent because of reduced federal support. For example, our committee thinks that the Farm Security Act s 60, which was passed by the senate last year, is a good way forward. The Farm and Forestry Operations Security Fund that was created by this bill would help farmers recover from weather disasters like floods and droughts, and in doing so would help protect Lake Champlain. More broadly, provisions in the Vermont resilience implementation strategy would benefit Lake Champlain as well. These provisions include enhanced agricultural resilience through funding, farm recovery, establishing an agricultural emergency response team, and investment in adaptation measures like soil health and water, management. And so our committee supports these and other legislative actions that would help implement or expand these provisions. The final component of our flood management priorities is to invest in public and private infrastructure, including transportation, drinking water, and stormwater systems to meet modern standards and to withstand future flooding. Failing wastewater and septic systems threaten water quality and public health. In many places, this crucial infrastructure is already well past its design life and is increasingly stressed by severe weather events. Our committee endorses any initiatives that limit new development in vulnerable river corridors, as Alison mentioned, upgrade failing municipal systems, inventory septic systems near water bodies, support the Healthy Homes Initiative, and expand education, oversight, and outreach on septic systems maintenance. To reduce nonpoint source pollution, it's critical to expand eligibility for clean water funds and support sustainable practices on working and developed lands. New development must include effective stormwater mitigation, while existing infrastructure should be upgraded to current standards. Two anecdotes will serve to illustrate the pressing need to support these investments. First, many of you probably know last year that Burlington, voted on two water infrastructure bonds totaling a $172,000,000, which will double water rates for homeowners in the next five years. These bonds were needed to upgrade equipment that is decades beyond its design life. Burlington might be able to enforce, to afford this, but smaller rural communities face similar infrastructure needs and have fewer resources and so need state support. Second, the Lake George Park Commission in New York, just across the lake, instituted mandatory septic inspections for properties that are within 500 feet of Lake George and properties located within 100 feet of streams that lead into the lake. In the first year of inspections in 2023, 54% of the inspected systems required replacement and repair. As most of the people in rural areas are on septic systems rather than sewer systems, it's likely that we have similar problems here in Vermont that would pose risks to Vermont water bodies, including Lake Champlain. Our committee strongly endorses the Flood Safety Act, Act 121, and supports new initiatives and additional funding that would further the objectives to build statewide flood resilience, protect public safety, and prevent further damage in the future from flooding. We noted we note that there are a number of bills before the legislature that have been introduced in in this session. And those are going to affect if if they were passed, would affect, either directly or indirectly flooding to Lake Champlain. As a consequence, would affect the the health of Lake Champlain. Many of these bills would have the co benefit of advancing specific opportunities and actions in the Vermont Resilience Information, implementation strategy, which, I mentioned above. We recognize that these bills might not come through your committee. However, if they do come to a floor vote, please consider as a member, not only the immediate intention of those bills, but also the potential impact on Lake Champlain. With that, I'll now pass the floor to Bob Fisher, who will address our water contaminants priorities.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I just wanna say that we thank you, Greg. We're usually not shy about asking questions. I haven't seen any hands, like halfway up, but if anybody has questions, we can interrupt. Yeah. Go ahead. You're gonna announce it.

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: Thank you, Brett. I really appreciate when you're talking about the need of agriculture. As a dairy farmer, we pride ourselves in taking care of our our own stuff. We'll we'll call it stuff today. There is a need for funding and with the new, for lack of a better term, cable program we have to up you know, to further upgrade our our facilities. You know, we are under a no discharge order now, we have been since 1995, and I think farmers have risen to the occasion, but, you know, the proverb out there is we can always do a little bit better, but we do need funding to help with this. We can't pass it out through a water bill to each one of our colleagues. So I'd love to sometime reach out and talk to you about some ideas I have down the road.

[Brett Bowden (CAC member, Burlington; retired UVM watershed science professor and former Lake Champlain Sea Grant director)]: Thank you, really I'd pleased to talk with you.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Okay. I know our

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: time is very limited. My name is Bob Fisher. I'm the water quality superintendent for South Burlington. I live in Barrie. I'm here to address water contaminants. I also would like to expound very quickly on the septic, part of that. 55% of Vermonters are on septic. That is the most by population in the nation. 99.3% of that, it may be 100% now go to wastewater plants now. There was only one field left that took it that I know of. So about all of it, it goes to wastewater. So when you think about it's all tied together because that's all got to go somewhere. The average human male in the America poops one pound a day. It's got to go somewhere. And I'm mostly here to speak about chloride contamination. Seems to following the same exact path as phosphorus, more or less. We're heading toward a TMDL. It's starting to affect I was also a former federal fishery biologist. And it's starting to become affect aquatic invertebrates. The feds will come down with the TMDL on it. There's already five impacted streams, including Colchester, Sunnybrook, two of them are in South Burlington. I asked stormwater department, why are you? Because we monitor it. Who knows how many streams don't monitor it? You know, this is a huge issue. You stop putting chloride down right now. Same as the phosphorus is still going to keep coming for a long time. It's in the soil everywhere else. We're proposing following like the a lot of it's like South Burlington and the municipalities. We try to use as little as possible. Salt's very expensive. It's all computerized. A lot of it's private. You own a mall, someone falls, break their legs. We're trying to follow the path of New Hampshire, where if they a large business owners take training, etcetera, could sign off on it, then they can get some limited liability from the state to reduce salt. Essentially, you're

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: talking about melting ice and Yep.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: All about salt. Yep, everything. So from one hand, it's affecting the fish and everything else. The other hand, I'm also a Killington Mountain School coach. I drive from Barrie to Killington for the last twenty six years, down 107. Salt has some value. Nonetheless, very rough stuff. We're almost out of time here. PFAS, another important one. We're here about up. For me, I produce manufactured soil. It's all about the air too also. Like I said, it's got to go somewhere. I can landfill it, but the increasing greenhouse gases would be through the roof. If I have to call it to Coventry, if they'll even take it, if I have to go out of state. And right now, we were mixing a 5% mix with V Trans on the side of the road. We have to test every thousand yards for PFAS. We've had nothing above background levels. B TRANS is very happy with it, putting it in non areas. We used to go to farms when, unfortunately, politics of that were rough.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: You're talking specifically about PFAS?

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: About PFAS in bile cells. It's in everything. PFAS is in everything. It's everywhere. It's in toilet paper. It's everywhere. It's all about reduction. It's an ounce of prevention. Go ahead.

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: So, Bob, I live in Derby. Mhmm. I travel down Route 14 over the North Wilkut Road Yep. And down Route 12. And I'm a nice road trucker until I get to Putnam Hill.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: And then

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: it's wet clear roads. Mhmm. When we talk about salt reduction, I think it's more than just your private businesses. I think that the other day, went up to Burlington, to Williston to a meeting, and I got up so far, and all of a sudden, 89 from shoulder to shoulder was gray. There was wasn't a plate of snow anywhere and everywhere else, there's snow. I I think there's certain parts of the state, the highway department uses way more than 200 to 300 pounds per mile.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: Yeah. I can only address the municipal, and I know that we are we train Burlington. We're doing what we can to do as little as possible. Like, the state would be kind of year off issue. And then Sorry, Matt.

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: And and as far as PFAS go, we we introduced the whole litany and bill last year on PFAS, and I don't think they're going anywhere because ANR has an aversion to them. The landfill lives right across South Bay from my house. Yep. And is working on a system that they can take that sludge coming out of the landfill.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Right. Yeah.

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: And they're trying to remove the PFAS and they're showing promising results. Last I heard.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: They're mostly concentrating it at the moment.

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: Yes. But if they concentrate it, then they can encapsulate it.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: It is encapsulated, but there is a lot of off gassing, even a PFAS at, like, 30 to 40% from the landfill along with the along with the methane. I know they also use it for power generation, same as we produce power of our methane. There's a lot of off gassing coming out there, though, and there's a lot of you know, the leachate's gotta go somewhere. There's no perfect solutions. Everything's triaged at this point, basically, in my opinion. Unfortunately, you've gotta pick the best of the worst.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: You know what you can do. Cina, easy. But I

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: know we have more important.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We have to we have to keep moving here.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: You know how tight on time?

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Because I think we only have thirty minutes.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So I know we've got we've more time. Yeah. No. We we had you on the calendar. It's both 10:20.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Oh, perfect.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Oh, okay. Great. And even if we were flexible. Okay, thank you.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: It's very flexible. Thank you for coming in. I've noticed even too in our sugar woods, maple trees do not like. Swats on the side of where the wind comes from, the maples are just dying.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: How far from the road?

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: It goes in a way to the 100, just that spray that comes off the vehicles and keeps going in year after year. It's heading toward a.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: I have a

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: TMDL soil tested it, but I it's, you know, it's hard to grow sugar maples in in villages even because of the. Yeah. Like I spoke with the Lieutenant Governor, I I lived out west for twelve years, and my first house was in Lake Tahoe. And we got over 400 inches of snow. And sure, maybe the snow is a little different here, little wetter when but, no, they still got Sierra cement. You could see an eastern car a mile away. That car, look at rusty New York plates. They didn't use nearly as much there. It was like Tahoe. And we didn't crash into things so much.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I would say living down in the southwestern corner of the state ordering two states that seem to use even more salt than Vermont does. Is an interesting conversation.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: I was

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: just thinking the other times of the year in Tunbridge, we've had a debate about magnesium chloride versus calcium chloride. Does the CAC have recommendations for municipalities, like either just reduction, but also what's the best of them?

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: Yeah, that's probably beyond our expertise. We don't generally get down that far in the weeds. We're more broad policy based. And even I as fishery biologist, wouldn't be an expert on that. Pull someone in from our highway department, that would be.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: know phosphorus is metric on the water coming out of wastewater treatment. What other chemicals are getting monitoring coming out of? Oh god. You don't have

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: a big name.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: Test for I think, 16 metals. I test for PFOS, phosphorus, BOD, TSS, E. Coli, nitrite, nitrate, phosphorus. I'm not the lab person. But, yeah, there's a whole suite of chemicals that we that we test that we test for coming out. For instance, we put out last year between our two facilities, we put out about 400 pounds of phosphorus. To give you a reference, six failed houses, six failed septic systems put out as much phosphorus as 22,000 people in South Burlington and Colchester because we use a lot of chemicals and whatnot to knock it down. But yeah, we put out very low levels for a lot of money. We're South Burlington. I'm spending close to 300,000 just on alimony. And that's a decision we made to do that. But yeah, there's legacy phosphorus there's everywhere, and salt seems to be taking the same trajectory. Eventually, the feds will come in. Can't say what regional one's gonna do right now, but under normal situations, they would come in and eventually gonna start cranking down on us.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Have you been in communication with House Environment Committee on on their chloride bill? They were trying to that nearly moved last year and it stalled. And I think the committee then decided that they would let the Senate take the lead, and that's never a good idea.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: We spoke to them last year. I don't believe we're scheduled yet, but I think we're still You don't hoping to schedule that this year. No, we haven't. We've so far, you're only our second meeting. So far, have lieutenant governor now. You so we're in front of the side. But I should let AIS go and stuff.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: But one other question here.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: Sure. Go ahead.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: Follow-up. So when you just said a few houses failing.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: If they're fully failed and going straight to the river.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: What does that mean? So much phosphorus? The

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: average person puts about nine milligrams per liter, and I'm averaging about 0.04 coming out of my facilities. So there's really your numbers there.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: After it's treated.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: After it's treated, of course. Yeah, it's coming in at nine, nine, ten, eleven milligrams per liter. And then we reduce it 98, 99%, just like the biochemical oxygen demand and the TSS. We basically put out drinking water. There is a rumor that when lieutenant governor did a tour month ago or so that someone named me would have drank the effluent. But as one of the two operators on the licensing board, I don't believe that's true. Would not.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: But it means that that all our private homes not on 55% are on something. Right. So they're producing a lot more phosphorus than, say, our dairy farms.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: Well, I don't know the math of that. It depends. I mean, it's a well run system, a brand new mound system. But for example, if you install a brand new mount system for $30.40, $50, a 100 milligrams per liter, BOD, TSS is what you're gonna expect from a good system. My limit's thirty, thirty BOD. I'd three times over my limit, and I put out one or two BOD less than one TSS. So, you know, it's just I got a lot of machinery. I got a $7,000,000 budget. It's huge compare a septic tank is basically Roman technology. It's just settles and goes out. Let's VW bug.

[Brett Bowden (CAC member, Burlington; retired UVM watershed science professor and former Lake Champlain Sea Grant director)]: Can I

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: Yeah, we need to go, though?

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Brad, could

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: you

[Brett Bowden (CAC member, Burlington; retired UVM watershed science professor and former Lake Champlain Sea Grant director)]: just May I comment briefly? I think a well run septic system, a well maintained septic system, does a very good job of of removing things and so is is not a threat to to water quality. The issues are when they are not well maintained and there's evidence that from Lake Georgia at any rate that they found that 54% of of their septic systems were not well maintained. Now, not well maintained as a spectrum. It can be anything from, it just needs to be cleaned out well to that it has failed. It's the failed ones that Bob's talking about that could be a real threat. So six failed systems would put out a lot of of, phosphorus, but the threat from septic systems more more widely is is it's not quite as dire as as that. I I would be hesitant as Bob is to say how failed systems or septic systems in general compared to dairy. We could we could produce those numbers.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: That'd be interesting.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That be interesting. Yeah. And and so the agency or somebody or the other agency may have some insight into that too.

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: I find it most interesting that the 54% of Lake George because the average of federals are always 10 to 15% by EPA estimates. And those are generally not. Those are fairly expensive houses. That's like George. These are those are all houses only on the lake. They only did the ones on the lake. Those aren't those are generally newer houses with generally newer systems, and they were failing. So, you know, we've got fairly old infrastructure here. Thank you. Soil type. Soil type. Soil type too is very important. Very important. Yeah. All sorts of factors. Thank you. Good

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: morning. Always hard to follow Bob, but I'm Andrew Milliken again. I'm a member of the Citizens Advisory Committee for Lake Champlain from Charlotte And an ecologist in background. I'll be fairly brief because I want to make sure we have time for Laurie to talk to you about public access. But I'm briefly going to talk about an ongoing priority for us, which is addressing aquatic invasive species. And as I think you probably know, aquatic invasive species are a significant ongoing threat to Lake Champlain and other water bodies in Vermont. And those aquatic invasive species have a major impact on native species, ecosystem integrity, on water quality, on recreation, on infrastructure. So they really can have a major impact. And as you probably also know, once you have an aquatic invasive species in the system, it's very costly and challenging to manage it and address it. So the real focus really needs to be on spread prevention and rapid response to try to address that issue. And right now, Lake Champlain has 51 documented aquatic invasive species in the system, which is a lot. But I will say our neighbors, the Hudson River, has 122 documented aquatic invasive species. And the sweet spot is the Great Lakes, which has 184 known or documented aquatic invasive species. And as you probably also know, those systems are ultimately connected to Lake Champlain. So there is a challenge. There's a challenge there for sure. And I'll just use one species as an example. You may have heard about the round goby invasive species from Eurasia that was introduced from ballast water discharge in the Great Lakes, made its way through the Erie Canal Mohawk River into the Hudson River, and now it is in the first couple of locks of the Champlain Canal. So that's just an example of the challenge, the importance of having a cooperative system with Quebec and New York to manage their canal systems to limit the import into Lake Champlain. And a strong and consistent staffing to continue to do monitoring and rapid response. And also all various approaches to prevention, such as boat wash stations, boat steward programs that we have in all three jurisdictions. And I will also mention there's some new technology that's making the job a little bit easier. Environmental DNA means you can now sample water and tell what aquatic invasive species are within a certain distance of that water sample. So that's been a really useful tool. It's really useful to track the round goby. And it was paired with physical sampling to to document the effectiveness of that technique. So we are supporting continued, consistent, and if possible, increased staffing in Vermont agencies to address this important issue for prevention, rapid response, and also really importantly, education to try to reach out to voters and others who have a significant role to play to limit the input of aquatic invasive species into our systems. We also ask the state to consider a mandatory boat decal program. There are models in New Hampshire and Maine and also in the Adirondack portion of New York, where boaters are asked to buy a boat decal that helps provide revenue for additional support for these programs. Also continuing to have high profile inspection stations, a strong steward program, and expand the cooperative boat wash system that we have throughout Lake Champlain and beyond. And as I mentioned earlier, the importance of having staffing here in Vermont that can advocate strongly with our partners in Quebec and New York to limit access of AIS through the canal system. And I think with our limited time, I will leave it there unless there's any questions.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: I just wondered, do you also do studies on, say, the various tributaries, like the Windusky and Stowe or the Chaysee, how many invasives do they have? Does just gain momentum as you get closer to the lake?

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: That's a really good question. I think depends completely on the species, whether they and how they got into the lake and whether they are species that can migrate uprivers like the sea lamprey or whether they're species that are lake based and they stay in the lake. Or then, of course, plants and other species are introduced way up in the watershed and may ultimately come down in the lake that way. So it kind of works both ways. But I think a lot of the watersheds would not have the full 51 species, that's for sure.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Presented Boston. Yeah, I was

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member, Brattleboro)]: just going say, I'm not sure that our committee would have jurisdiction over all the details about this. I think it might be the environmental one. But as a person who lives very close to the New Hampshire border and has a kayak that I use on both sides of the river, On the Vermont side of the river, I never see anybody asking me about, have I washed the bottom of my boat? Am I aware of invasive species and all of these kinds of things? And when I go to New Hampshire, they almost always have a volunteer there. No matter what time you show up, they ask you those kind of questions and they have a much more comprehensive system to raise awareness about it for people that are utilizing the waters. So I would agree with you. Vermont needs to do better.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Great. And they may well support that with that mandatory decal program that I mentioned. So that's a really good point.

[Rep. John L. Bartholomew (Vice Chair)]: Christine Bartholomew. Just curious, can you tell me the percentage of animal versus plant invasive species?

[Unidentified committee member (Derby-area dairy farmer)]: A problem.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Laurie, can I phone a friend?

[Laurie Fisher (CAC member, Williston; retired Executive Director, Lake Champlain Committee)]: We can't tell you that offhand, but we can get that number for you, so we'll get back to you with that. I don't have that on the top of my head, but we can supply you with that number.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: I would I would

[Laurie Fisher (CAC member, Williston; retired Executive Director, Lake Champlain Committee)]: guess that split rather.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Yeah, there's a lot of both, but I would address it slightly tilted more towards animals because they can migrate in plants and to come in either through people that don't know they're non native and bring them in or other techniques.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Was curious about the you mentioned managing in the the shambling and out lock system, trying to manage the spread there. Can you just say a little bit does that mean?

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Sure. So basically, the Champlain Canal specifically, there's a series of locks in which you are still in the Hudson River drainage until you reach Lock 8. And that's the top of the hill. From like Lock 8 forward, you are now draining into Lake Champlain. So that's

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: still in New York State.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: It is. Yes. And so the goal is to somewhere before you get through Lock 8, or maybe it's actually at Lock 8, you set up as close to a permanent barrier as you can. And I worked for quite a few years with the Corps of Engineers to figure out what that means. And the problem is ninety five percent successful is a failure. So nothing but a true permanent barrier where you actually stop boat traffic there and pull each boat out, clean it and put it back on the other side can work. Now, there are other techniques you can do that do make a difference, like bubbles and electric currents that have been tried in the Great Lakes. But they're not always effective. The challenge becomes commercial traffic that might not easily be able to get through that that type of system. So but there is a train track running right along the canal. So

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: All right. Thank you, Ed.

[Andrew Milliken (CAC member, Charlotte; retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service ecologist)]: Thank you. And I will introduce Laurie Fisher.

[Laurie Fisher (CAC member, Williston; retired Executive Director, Lake Champlain Committee)]: Hello, everyone. Chair Durfee, vice chair Bartholomew, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of Lake Champlain Citizens Advisory Committee and talk to you about access. My name is Laurie Fisher. I'm a Vermont CAC member from Williston and the retired executive director of the Lake Champlain Committee. The Vermont CAC sees investment in recreational access to Lake Champlain as essential to stewardship, equity, and long term lake health. People protect what they know, and they only know what they can reach. And when Vermonters can walk a shoreline, paddle the way lake, fish, or swim, Lake Champlain becomes personal, and that lived experience it with is what builds care, responsibility, and public support for clean water. Equitable access to the lake is also critical to Vermont's economy. Outdoor recreation accounts for roughly five percent of Vermont's GDP. That's second only to Hawaii, and it continues to grow, reinforcing the importance of sustained investment in recreational spaces like Lake Champlain. Expanding non motorized access and low barrier shoreline opportunities will also reduce conflicts, broaden participation, and strengthen stewardship. Lake access, is managed by multiple state and as well as municipal entities, but including Vermont Fish and Wildlife and Vermont Parks and Recreation, and each with different funding structures and mandates. Vermont Fish and Wildlife's budget is supported by a mix of federal funds, the state general fund, and department generated revenues such as licenses and registrations. That budget, has also well, it's structured, has understandably shaped how access sites are managed and prioritized, but declining license sales, the growth of lifetime licenses have reduced annual revenues even as recreational uses have diversified and management needs have expanded beyond what those traditional funding sources were designed to support. And those, particularly with fish and wildlife's budget, that funding, source, particularly the federal funds where some of that is coming from motorized uses, it prioritizes, motorized over non motorized, and it dictates somewhat the hierarchy of uses at some of our access sites and also what's not allowed such as swimming and picnicking at certain access areas. So these are all challenges that we need to address in really, dealing with recreation in a positive way and access. And that access really needs to be truly accessible. Cost cannot be a barrier, and access should not depend on owning a car or a boat. We also need to think about walkable, bikeable, and low barrier access points, free or reduced fee options, and simple shoreline facilities are essential if all of our monitors to form lasting connections to the lake and our waterways throughout the state. And while there are multiple state parks along the Northern And Central Lake, the South Lake has no Vermont State Park. And though it's a rural region, the people who live there still need reliable public ways to reach the water. Addressing this gap is key to equitable stewardship across the entire lake. If we want a cleaner, healthier Lake Champlain, we need to ensure that people can experience it firsthand. That stewardship begins with access, and access requires intentional ongoing investment. Thank you.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you, Laurie. Any questions for Laurie? And you're the last speaker, Lori. I don't know if you wanted to say anything to wrap up, but also just to check with the committee if they have any other questions for any of the speakers.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: And I did briefly want to introduce Hillary Solomon, who's here. She's also a member of the CAC, and she was testifying on other things earlier. So she just arrived, so maybe she could just introduce herself briefly. Hillary Solomon, I help sort of represent the southern part of the lake. Work with the Holtley and Menowethe Natural Resource Conservation District, which is in the Holtley And Menowethe Watersheds, which is sort of the headwaters of it as it flows north.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Was just trying to picture in my head if we were talking about access and state, potential state park, and then thinking about the canal system too, which comes in through New York State, as we were saying. Would be the southernmost point where you could actually have good public access, maybe since So you're in

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Whitehall is right at the bottom of the lake. And there are some The Polkney River could provide some access. And the Nature Conservancy owns some lands right there. So yeah, we have been looking at that too from sort of our vantage of what lands are already insured in some way, maybe with an easement of some kind. Otherwise, I'm not sure. But that's sort of how we started thinking about maybe we could find an entry point. But without that, it might be a purchase. But yeah, you'd be looking at, I think, West Haven, Benson, those areas.

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: Laurie, when you were finishing up your subject, I thought, well, I have to connect Laurie with Hillary. Was the one we came in about six years ago and said, we're looking for some sort of Southlake access, but it sounds like you're already there. But it's interesting that everybody's known this for years and nothing's happened. So if there's any way that this committee can help, let us know.

[Laurie Fisher (CAC member, Williston; retired Executive Director, Lake Champlain Committee)]: Yeah, think that's a really important point. And part of that is driven, you know, there's a a lower population base there, but that's where we get at equity too that we really need to provide these resources. And there are a dearth of resources. And when we talk about South Lake, we're talking about the Champlain Bridge South, and our last, really, I think, state funded access site there or or park is really the historic site near the bridge. And then you have two parks. Independence? Three parks further north.

[Alison Stasnow (CAC member, Jericho; graduate student, UVM)]: Yeah. Pardon?

[Rep. John O’Brien (Member, Tunbridge)]: Now Independence. Right?

[Laurie Fisher (CAC member, Williston; retired Executive Director, Lake Champlain Committee)]: Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I yeah.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member, Brattleboro)]: Yeah. Just a quick question. I I think this would maybe go more to you, but maybe you could take it as well. I'm just wondering if it was mentioned earlier that the failed septics can be really damaging to water quality. And as far as I know, I mean, I'm a person that lives in a house with a septic system, and I think it's voluntary how often I get my septic cleaned. And my septic company, once I get in with a company, they will remind me like, Hey, it's been two years or, Hey, it's been three years. But there isn't any kind of mandatory logging or documentation of how long it's been since somebody has had that cleaning done. I'm wondering. I know over legislating isn't popular in this building, but do you think there would be an advantage in terms of making a requirement that people need to have their septic system and like register it with their town clerk or something like

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: that? I'll pass it

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: to the question. I certainly, I think so. I think that the Lake George, that was a heavy lift for them and it's a very wealthy area and it's a small area. That was a heavy lift and they got that done and you could see the numbers are like astounding. So that's they're going to do some major benefits to Lake George's health by fixing those systems that are right on the lake. For instance, I run the South Burlington system. We'll be taking Colchester in as soon as it comes online from the whole Malloy Bay project. That's another one. They're right on the lake.

[Rep. Mollie S. Burke (Member, Brattleboro)]: And what's your thought in terms of frequency that like, I mean, if there were going to be legislation, should it be every two years, every three years? What do

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: you think?

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: It's hard to say a three off the top of my head, but it also, there'll be up to legislature and it depends on the house and the people. I know my in laws, they had slightly had a problem with the pipe one time and I said, hey, I helped him clean it out. I said, well, how long do you get your tank cleaned? They go, what? They built the house in 1966, they never had it bombed. I assumed that the bottom is rotted out and it's just going somewhere in Upstate New York, I have no idea.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: They didn't even know that you

[Bob Fisher (Water Quality Superintendent, City of South Burlington; CAC member)]: were supposed to clean them and other than that, wipe any clogs. It's working for them, but not for the environment.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. Just before we let you go, thank you all for joining us and for staying a little bit late too. I did want to just note, and maybe you can we don't have to have a long conversation about it, but your request or your recommendation for full staffing, investment in full staffing, this is in the resiliency section there, understanding what that means or how you interpret that full staffing would be helpful to us. We are about to go into the budgeting review season, and we'll be asking the agencies to come in and share with us their budgets, which include staffing, obviously. And it's also often the case that they budget for staffing but aren't able to fill up the positions. But nevertheless, if you have a way to quantify that, that's because

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Yeah, and I think Alison mentioned that, so I'll pass it over to her. But I think it's relative to the Flood Safety Act first. In that legislation, we asked for 15 staff positions within wetlands, river program, and dam safety. We got nine of those in the end. Financially, that's how many could be afforded. And not all of those positions have been filled. So really critical to fill those. Alison, I don't know if you have more to add to that.

[Alison Stasnow (CAC member, Jericho; graduate student, UVM)]: No, I would just say in order to accomplish a lot of these goals that are around the nature based solutions that I talked about, does take time to make that happen. So it's ensuring that, yes, full staffing and also collaboration between all the agencies that are working on these issues. So we think that, yes, what the agencies are telling us, they need the people to get the work done. We trust those opinions and we want them to be able to be successful.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: All right, well, you. I think we'll wrap it up there. We will take a break. Committee and our next witnesses, let's be up in ten minutes.

[Carina Daly (Chair, Vermont Citizens Advisory Committee on Lake Champlain’s Future)]: Thank you so much.