Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: We're also joined by our chief of operations, Andrea Shortzleaf, who was, commissioner of Fish and More Alec just before I, and Chris Saunders, who also works in the commissioner's office with us, who's, responsible for the the PowerPoint that I have and a lot of the content that that Charles imagined and and then brought to fruition. None of it's imagined, but it's he's the he's the brain envision. There you go. He's he's the brainchild. And I don't know if I'm able to share this. I was given a link and I'm sorry if I should just begin. I'm happy to do that. If you want a visual, we could spend a good deal of time on it.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, no, we have it on our website. Why don't you share it with us? And and share it.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Yes. While

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I'm I'm booting up here, I just wanted to say that it's it's not lost on me that I'm I'm talking about food security to to folks who, bring a lot of food to Vermonters and beyond. And so I I I certainly know my place, and I I wouldn't wanna try and usurp any efforts that, our folks' vocation and career in any way. And I do wanna thank everyone for commitments to society. I would be nothing without the roaming I got to do on Richard's father's land throwing up. Go home a lot.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: And this

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: may or may not work out.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: If you try to give you some technical assistance, that might be

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: helpful. I've got the link in front of you.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I have not

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: certain I have internet access.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: Maybe that's it. Yeah. You haven't. You're not connected here. You should be able to Yes. Yes. Okay. So if you double click that little globe. Yeah. Okay. Connecting. But let's see where you're gonna just connect it to the app and go to the arrow, then you'll see that. Alright. So yeah. It could be it. Yeah. And connect. Let's get the link going and make sure that works. And you're connected now. It's refreshed. Okay. It's still spinning. Yeah. Still spinning. It is okay. Let's see. Yeah. It hasn't. Let's see. It's just Yep. Okay. Should be in now. Let me check.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Every agency should have a 12 year old that comes with them jumping this up. Okay. So

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: where'd you go? Had you for a moment and you've disappeared.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Still showing the it says I'm still connecting.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: So.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah. The patient is. Mhmm.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: You're back. And I'm making your. Audio thing.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I get it

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: turned off. You did. I'll hold your audio. Do you mind if you stop this? I already gave you permission. Question is what's going on with your body?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. I shut

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: everything off. And we're not hearing the echo now. Right? Okay. Bring it. So, let's make sure you have sharing. Share. Go back there again. Maybe try.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Try it.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: Yeah, you've got to open up your desktop and just open the share. Put the live stream back on now, but it really happens on.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: I think we're still going, we can see that, and if you want to try and expand that as sort of the final step there.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Think.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: But you might be right under where it says house agriculture. Don't know if you

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: can use that house agriculture. You can go down here, click that slide screen thing. There you go. Wonderful. Perfect.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Thank you for your patience. Thank you. So, again, my name is Jason Bashelder. I'm I'm the fish and wildlife commissioner. I'm also a retired game warden, of twenty years and and had a wonderful career doing that. We're here to talk today a little bit about, cost avoidance and and food security that that we feel is provided by the department and and our our how our mission aligns with with food security and and helping folks build their freezers in a in a way that also provides them a lifestyle and exercise peace of mind and do a traditional way. So you can see the title here, the nutritional significance of wildlife conservation in Vermont. I'm gonna skip along because undoubtedly we'll have a bunch of questions here. So it's working, but it's it's making me wait for a spinning wheel as I do this.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: It's a good connection.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, I wonder.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Sorry, think I skipped.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: That's the second slide, I think there.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It is the second. Yeah. Okay. You're good. Sorry, chair. It's not. It's, I've got one in between this. We will get through this, I promise. I'm just gonna read this one for you because that's our third slide. So Article two, chapter 67 of the Vermont constitution states that the wildlife of the state shall be held in trust for the people by the state of Vermont. So us being in charge as the department are are are very what's what's the word I I would use? I think I think we're very well positioned in this day and age, even though I I feel sometimes we we don't get the, the front and center headlines. We're still very front and center in people's minds about how, food security fits into their lives. And and our role, protecting and maintaining efficient and plants of the state leans heavily into into, people's day to day. Regardless of income and land ownership in Vermont, in trust, sort of in trust that's enshrined in the constitution means sustainability for hunting and fishing opportunities. It means, affordable quality hunting, handling, trapping experiences, and an ability to gather meaningful amount of food from the land. Still looking at, this one. Okay. So a little bit about our demographic. We, if you can believe it, about one in six Vermonters has either, a hunting or fishing license. 109,000 resident hunters and anglers. If you if you pull in, non residents, we're at a 140,000, anglers and 81,000 hunters, seventy thousand and ninety five thousand four hundred respective respectively. Our participation rate is very steady across the state of Vermont. While our numbers are down year over year, our participation rate stays very, very steady. And the way it's been equated to me is, we don't have the young people that we used to have. So recruitment is is challenging. People that aren't here aren't gonna be buying aren't gonna be buying licenses. Also worth noting is that, historically, our sales increase, during times of economic uncertainty and other uncertainty. And there's a little, a little graphic there to show you where our our top towns are. I can move that a little bit for you. For fishing, our our our license sale data shows Burlington has the most anglers. Bennington and St. Albans, Barrie and Milton for hunting licenses, then counties Grand Isle, Orleans, and Franklin, which are representative of a lot of water. In addition, hunting for Essex, Orleans, and and Franklin County are highest represented. Let me see if I can advance this and have it agree with me.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Is that per capita?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: These are I'm gonna ask Chris I'm gonna ask Chris that, but I think these are actual numbers.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Yeah. So, like, everybody in assets funds?

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: For a model. Yeah. That makes sense. It should just be with Essex

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sorry, not Essex County. Probably 800 people. It's probably both. Right?

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Probably both. Yep.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Okay. Just click on that. This is your first slide intended, right? So if we go to that third one now? Yes. Here.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: And you can all see this? Great. Yep. Okay. A little bit about our costs. An annual fishing license, $28 a year. An annual hunting license, $28 per year. And if you look at at those breakdowns, they're they're remarkable. Right? And and if you if you think about, what that could possibly mean and if if you know anglers and and you know what's catchable in the state of Vermont, what's huntable in the state of Vermont, that that is that is a very great return on your investment. An annual combination hunting and fishing license, 13¢ a day or essentially, every day of fishing, and we we only break it down between September 1 and December 31 for hunting. Even though turkey season is not encapsulated there, and there are other huntable species that people do eat, we break it down during the big game seasons. Some other, some other notable, add ons that we have are are are opportunity hunts, archery, and, turkey and muzzleloader are are additional, but they're still still very low cost. Additionally, we have bear and, animals deer lotteries, which which people do take advantage of. My my hunting license does not cost $47. It it costs upwards of about 200, which is still obviously less than a dollar a day. It's very, very, economical. Unlike some other states, we don't, charge people for for specific fishing opportunities. No no trap stamp, no specific habitat stamp that people have to buy. People do buy habitat stamps with with regularity, and we really appreciate that. And and no access fees as of yet. Youth under age 15 don't need a license in Vermont, and, permanent licenses age 66 and up are are a one time fee. A staggering number that you, that you find interesting in 2023, nineteen percent of all infants in Vermont that were born in Vermont were gifted a lifetime license. Kind of cuts both ways. This income, is wonderful to have early on, but we do miss it, as they age. But sometimes, these are not reflected in our overall, license numbers. So if you think about, roughly 20% of kids holding a license, it's pretty remarkable. And then, one in four active resident hunters and anglers in Vermont hold a lifetime with permanent license. Also sort of on passive end.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: So the lifetime license is, so that's different from the permanent license you can get once you get older. How much is a lifetime license?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I don't wanna have to guess. So it's it's age dependent. So under a year, I believe it's eight times eight times the the cost of a of a normal license. So you're looking at just about under $280, something to that effect. A lot of them are gifted. We gifted them to our nieces and nephews. People gifted them to my children. A lot of them are gifted that way. And then they just sit passive until the child needs them, which is good for us. We can invest that money. But it when it comes time to be of hunting age or fishing age, it's it's a wonderful thing to have. My kids are enjoying it now.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yes. Everybody else has got

[Unidentified Committee Member]: a question. So thank you, chair. So you you think about it though. Some of those kids move away and don't come back. Some of those kids don't develop into be hunters or anglers. Some of those kids, because they had that license, come back and enjoy time with their parents for a weekend. It's a wonderful kid. Also, they're buying additional tags as the ones that are fully into it buy additional tags as they get older, and I I just I'd like to really see the long term economic effects. I think it's gotta be a win.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. I think we have that available. I think we could provide that to you. Over time, some of the investments mature at different times, and we're able to to pull from those funds. And and I've been here five months, and I and it's it's already been brought to my attention that some of that stuff is is is bearing fruit as we speak. Yeah. And and I don't know how many years we are into this effort. It's gotta be thirty at this point into into lifetimes. But it is for for the majority of the purposes that they exist, they're wonderful. And we wouldn't have it any other way, even though it does they tend to tend to cost us. But you're right. People returning for the longevity, for folks who may get into it later in life, it's it's a wonderful thing for them and for us. Do you have a question, John? Just

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: similar. So if I grew up in Vermont, I have one of these lifetime licenses. Now I live in Tampa. It's still valid. I just have a state license.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: That's right. It's we have this we have a I I we do we have a name that we call it? There some states have, like, return to return to Idaho or return to Montana to hunt. I don't think we've named it anything yet, but a person does not lose this license once they move away.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah. Then it lives here. The commissioner, last year, the governor signed a bill at 61, which I recall one of the benefits was either a reduction for military veterans in their fees or reduce or no fee for hunting. Has that come before you to this point?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Chris may be able to speak to a representative. As long as I can remember, we've had free military licenses or reduced cost, resident cost military licenses for folks who are on orders in the state of Vermont. You're a resident and you get a free license. If you're on orders, get a resident cost. I'm I'm not familiar with this effort, but Chris is nodding his head and and certainly you're on to something. Okay. But certainly, we've had we've had this as long as as long as I can remember. We've had we've had, certainly allowances for military members. I used to take advantage of

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: it when I was deployed. I think this was specifically for veterans. Yeah. So thank you. Sure. Of course.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Representative Ben Abenaki Yes. Tribe members also get to hunt free? Free. Yes. Yes.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. For for maybe going on eight or ten years. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a it's a wonderful thing that I I think that was in the summer administration. I still talk to to chief Don Stevens routinely about the benefits and his over the moon. So food has motivation. So we point this out because it's it may be a little bit of a shift from from some of you who may have grown up hunting. Nationwide, people are hunting for meat. People are are fishing as as a way to bring in food is one of the top five reasons for fishing. But hunting for a motivation, for for meat as a motivation is is the is the number one reason why people are hunting these days. We were discussing in in the cafeteria earlier about how many of us, in our in our sort of our circle, and granted, I I I get it. We're in a different circle than a lot of people, bring venison or eat venison for me for lunch. And just something that we've grown as part of our lifestyle. And across the country, you will see that because of the availability of of venison, is a wonderful choice for people to be able to harvest and share. People still fish for the social aspect and for the sport, but top five motivation for fresh fish. It is by far the most important reason people hunt bear in Vermont. It's the most important reason for small game and the third most important reason for hunting waterfowl. We don't have any research on on deer hunters in in the state, but nationwide, it is it is for me, and I'm certain it is for me as well in the state of the law. And it it it goes a long way, but I I have three deer in the freezer, and I have I have three kids. And I I can promise you, it it runs out about October every year, which is good timing. A little bit about our license sales. I've mentioned before that, license sales and participation surged during the pandemic and other times of of economic uncertainty and and other uncertainties. Procuring a person's food was associated, with improved food security during the COVID nineteen pandemic. This is a study. UVM and University of Maine entered into this and and showed that food insecure households were much more likely to hunt and fish in forage than people who reported that they were food secure. Probably not a surprise. Interest and participation in hunting and fishing as a food source increased quite a bit during the pandemic. And I I I think that's what we thought we talked about that quite a bit, and we did have a little bit of a hangover after COVID when when folks sort of went back to their, to their normal lives. You can see that, 2021 median income figure, is is, higher than the average hunter and the average angler by demographic. And I think some of that's reflected in in some of the towns that we showed more rural, on the lower income, and then in some of the some of the urban areas.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: That's a single person income or a household income?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: That's a household income, if I'm not mistaken, yes, household income. And that's a little dated, but still relevant. Some of the, some of the rewards for for hunting big game, you for your interest. Moose on the high end average is about 300 pounds, and we harvested 54 moose in 2024. Harvest in pounds relates to a lot. Right? Deer average 50 pounds, way up there in the 800,000 pound range. Bear, we're up we're up into the thousands again this year, but but 2024, they were 908 harvested in in upwards of 45,000 pounds, and then wild turkey still still up there. A lot of turkeys. Does

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: that count the bear taken by depredation?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It doesn't. It doesn't count roadkill and it doesn't count depredation. It doesn't count

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: roadkill either. So those numbers are actually quite a bit higher. They are and a lot higher. There's more than one way to harvest your corn. It's true. Yeah

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: and I do have a slide on some of the stuff that we provide as a department toward the end. Probably doesn't capture everything but certainly we give away a lot of road till and all of the depredation allowances that the department offers. It's built into statute that if someone shoots a bear and damage to their property, corn, bees, process for consumption is among the requirements. So if you shoot one, it can only leave the property, in your truck headed to your freezer or in the truck of a game warden headed to somebody else's pizza. So kind of a neat thing and obviously very responsible.

[Chris Saunders (Commissioner’s Office, VT Fish & Wildlife)]: Can I extrapolate a little on this please? So that line at the bottom, the $6,000,000 that's an extremely conservative number. We chose ground beef averages, inorganic ground beef is just a very conservative way to convey cost avoidance. Jason kind of noted this, but everything we're talking about here does not include fish harvest, doesn't include small game harvest. So that 6,000,000 would go up with those included. We just don't have survey data that is reliable enough to include them. And if you do just a quick kind of cursory search on sort of the exotic meats you might be able to acquire, and I don't know the legalities, I'm not saying do it, but if you go online and look at like a venison value or a rabbit or a goose or a duck, it's a multiplier of a 6,000,000 by three or four. So it's really like a $20,000,000 value if you really were seeking out the same protein source. For a lot of these households, those would not be an option at all ever if they didn't have this regulated activity as an option

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: to procure that food. I think that's

[Chris Saunders (Commissioner’s Office, VT Fish & Wildlife)]: really worth internalizing when we think about the value of this brings to predominantly skewing lower income households.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: How to gain through regulated hunting? And percentage wise, if you look over time since 2020, we're very steady. Even with the the spike in 2020 when we had a lot more hunters and anglers on the landscape, we're very steady. Some of that is is due in part to expanded opportunities we've offered extended seasons. Some of you may be aware that archery season is starting early, running later. We're offering a second buck tag this year. We're we're we're experiencing, sort of high clover with with regards to, our deer herd and in our in our bear numbers. So these these these numbers stay steady over time, even though our our we are experiencing that little bit of a hangover. But you can see the percentages of of deer, turkey, and bear that are harvested that are represented here. Pretty neat pretty neat figures. There are some waterfowl numbers here because I I you may know some of you may, every time I see duck on the menu at a restaurant, have to get it. Waterfowl is is is historically a a table fair and something that folks seek out. We're we're, we're sort of a, I would say in the middle, on on duck hunting states. We're not we're not like a like an Arkansas or Louisiana, but we we do hunt, a lot of ducks here and harvest over over 46,000 pounds of of waterfowl duck and duck and goose every year. Small game, rough grouse is is our our most popular for for pursuit. Our numbers are certainly down. Gray squirrel is increasing largely due to, what we feel are are new Vermonters, new Americans coming, from parts of the world where where, squirrel hunting is much more popular culturally. I'm squirrel hunter myself. I think it's wonderful, we certainly have the resource to support this.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: We do have a little bit of data on fishing, through our fish culture section in fisheries division. You raise a lot of fish. We don't represent the catch numbers here because they're not all harvested. Some of them are are food for loons. Some of them are, you know, die through other other means, and some just simply aren't harvested. But we provide, a 190,000 pounds of trout, salmon, and walleye every year. We do focus a lot on catchable size. We used to focus a lot more on fry and and regeneration, but we folks want catchable sized fish. And and if and if, you follow, our stocking, efforts, you you can do very well in in the in the spring and summer and now even fall and winter for for catchable species that we provide. We do stock near, fishing access areas that are that are very accessible, sometimes to the to the chagrin of of some of the some of the diehards. But most of these fish are stocked near where people fish, where people live, where we send people, where creel surveys show that boats are active. And we do provide, through our access areas, 205 we have 205 fishing access areas. Wonderful opportunities to catch a lot of fish for food. Have any of you heard of our Medicine for Vermonters program? This is sort of a warden led effort that started maybe seven, eight years ago. Senior warden Abigail Sarah is essentially, I don't know if she's credentialed, essentially a professional butcher, grew up butchering her own livestock and it has carried that over into into venison. They provide, as you can see, a thousand pounds distributed annually roughly to food shelves. She's out of the Rutland area, but they do distribute broader than that area. Abigail does clinics. She'll be at the Yankee Classic this weekend doing a deer processing demo. Phenomenal asset to the department. And essentially, the department allows her to receive these animals, mostly roadkill. I think they're exclusively roadkill, actually. And she processes them a little bit on her own time, a little bit on state time. She gets donations for cutting equipment for the wrapping paper and then distributes this all free of charge. It's phenomenal. And it saves a lot on waste. We have fish processing clinics through Let's Go Fishing, and we do offer fishing festivals. Our our Lake Elmore Fishing Festival is, the January 31. I'll be there in case any of you feel like coming and learning how to set up a tip-off or or or jig. For panfish, it's a fun day. And then we partner through rural Vermont and Vermont Wild Kitchen. We do seminars with BBM showing people how to go sort of from from field to to table on some of these some of these efforts and exploits.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Before you leave this slide, the visit for Vermonters program just made me wonder whether, generally speaking, if someone has more venison meat than they need, whether they what the rules are or the laws on sharing that either with food shelves or neighbors or selling it, I guess. That's part b of

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: the question. Sure. Great question. We're the only state that allows the sale of venison. There was an article in the Atlantic that David Dean shared with us, this week that sort of points that out. Folks like to point it out, every couple of years that it runs contrary to the North American model if we won't provide markets for for game. We've we've had this law for seventy plus years, and and we do allow it. Within twenty days of the close of the season, you can sell your medicine. I recommend for an important forum that for sharing. I definitely certainly don't recommend selling it. Do whatever you want with your medicine. But it's a thing when people have too much, widely shared. It is legal to share it and barter with it within twenty days of the close of the season. We just don't see it. Folks are are either willing to give it away or they're very guarded about keeping their own. And there's there's a lot to it. I've I've been there's been quite a few articles talk that talk about Vermont and their ability to sell.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Do we have hunters for the hungry here? Is there an active group doing that like they do in other states?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: I don't know. I think this is our version of that representative. I don't know if we

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: have hunters for the hungry here. You should know. Don't know.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Doesn't sound like it.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: To get to your point about excess medicine, I believe that hunters can donate to medicine for pharmatics if they go to a certified butcher and then have it processed and then they can go on the H2 program. They just can't butcher it themselves. Thank you.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Representative O'Brien? Yeah, just I wondered about that. You don't see venison for sale in Hannaford's or the general store. What does it have to go through? Is it USDA or Vermont Ag certified and butcher or Yes.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: USDA appears to be the limiting factor. I get my meat cut when I get it cut, at Eric Holmgren's shop in Orange, and he was a former USDA meat inspector. That's why I chose him, but he would always say that that was the limiting factor. I I it's certainly it's knowable. I but we 've had folks that wanna make bone broth. They they wanna make certain food or so products with with venison towel or venison bones, and USDA seems to be the hang up where they can't get it inspected. The Georgia market used to sell it out of out of their, store. I don't think they do any longer. But, yes, the inspection was the hangup. Yeah. Not having the the sort of the captive, arena with which to to inspect.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: But Tennyson Harbor monitors doesn't have to go through USDA?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: They do not. No. I and I it predates me, and so I wish I could speak accurately just to why not, but we we have been doing great so far.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Panfish is sold in the state of the mind.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: It is. Birch, crappie. Not crappie any longer, but

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh right, you're right, yep that just changed.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: That just changed, but you could sell yellow perch, you can sell sunfish, you can sell white perch, white perch by the barrel. You wanna buy it. Eating it, some of the best, but people can get their own. Tend to go very low on scale at around 10¢ a pound. You can buy it and sell it. What prompted the change on crop? On crappie? It was largely social, and that predated me as well, chair. If Andrew wants to jump in, this is the board. The board took a hold of this. When I was with the department, we wanted to ban the sale of crappie on social grounds because they spawn in very small areas, like under a bridge underpass. And it brought a lot of people together, and some of it was contentious. And when you're talking about $4 a pound, $3.50 a pound, people were were protective of their spots. That didn't seem to to hold a lot of sway with the board at the time, and they didn't pass it. This this most recent this most recent effort was successful, but I it was not present. And so I I I do believe I I know it's not biological. We were on record saying that you couldn't harm the Lake Champlain fishery with hook and line if you tried. And this is all hook and line. It's not nothing nothing's netted. And 25 fish a day and they still have to be eight inches long, it's it's it's not easy to catch 25 for the for for me, for for, the average angler. People that are good at it are good at it, and they can they can catch 25. But they they felt there was some exploitation, and there was some social, aspect sort of, grumpiness around fishing spots. And they said that Since we're the only I I I there may be other states that sell crappy, but I don't believe there are if you're the only one.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: I heard there were fishing for.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Very good. Representative Boston? Yeah. Just I'm wondering if earlier slides you had included foraging along with hunting and stuff. I was just gonna bring to the attention of the committee that Vermont actually doesn't have a policy that prohibits people that forage mushrooms from selling them. You can sell them from, And the thing is you don't need a certificate. You don't need to be certified. There are 13 states that actually have certification to be considered a wild mushroom expert so that you can buy and sell wild mushrooms. But in Vermont, it's just up to trusting the expertise of the gatherer. So that might be something maybe that we should look at because as a forager, I think we might wanna make sure that people are only getting what they think they're getting when they purchase wild mushrooms.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Alright. Yep. Okay. Some slides that that show this connection to the mission. So we we manage for wildlife management areas and stream bank management areas, private land and farm bill programs help us with this. Vermont conservation design, I'm I'm not certain you've all had had a chance to see, maybe some of you have sort of our our wildlife management, North Star, how how we how we plan for the future around, land and habitat conservation, is is how we go about this effort and and and ensuring management of these species. I I find it a difficult, thing sometimes to discuss wildlife management having having not having the background coming from a law enforcement background. But essentially, all this to say that our staff are all aimed toward this sustainable food production effort. And I'll just read down the list from from from law enforcement licensing, species management and fishing access areas, fish stations, hunter education, let's go fishing programs. We all we all, have our our arms around this sustainability efforts so folks can, if they wish, harvest the species that we manage for. I I guess managing for for all uses is is how I would how I would sum that up. If if if folks want to, consume 50 perch a day, which is which is hard to do but can be done, they they can do that. If they wanna be a wildlife watcher, they can do that. We manage for all users, and and every aspect and every every corner of the department is aimed toward that sustainability effort, for for all users. And I know I'm I'm sort of being clumsy with my language here, but, maybe you get something out of that. Our mission for the conservation of fish, wildlife, and plants in their habitats is, something that's been near and dear to this effort for a long time. When we, at the department look at why we go to work every day, I think I think the majority of folks that work at the department look at it as a as a as a food opportunity, as an opportunity for for folks to feed themselves if they wish, to enjoy the landscapes and the public waters that are certainly open to all for however folks wanna choose to enjoy them, and bringing sustainability through habitat conservation and and regulated hunting and fishing.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Am I at the end?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Am I finished? May I have reached the end? I guess I am. I I I know I didn't, there was no ask in this in this offer to present. I appreciate that. I I feel like we're here today just to to raise awareness, around, around an aspect of the department that I feel that I feel is missed in in a lot of the a lot of the white noise that we all hear around the Fish and Wildlife Department. But we're essentially at the twenty twenty six crossroads. We're a habitat organization. Habitat is what it takes to conserve species and feed the folks who wanna be fed by our by our licensed sales. And so, essentially, everything that we do is focused around habitat and and providing habitat for wildlife to be wild, essentially, for for what I would say ten months of the year. Right? We get a lot of sentiment from various corners of the state around providing too much time and effort to hunters, trappers, hound hunters, anglers, when in reality we're focused on habitat or focused on helping folks be secure in a way that they choose and enjoy the wildlife that they how they choose to enjoy. I'd love to take any questions you have.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Think that's all.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Yeah, that's Director Lipsky.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah, thank you, Commissioner. A couple of questions, try to make them brief. But having you being part of a broad ANR umbrella, you have a sister agency called FPR. And within FPR, there's a lot of discussion about over browsing, particularly for climax specie, sugar maple, which is very significant to our forest and our agricultural community, maple products. And there's concern that over browsing where maple saplings or sprouts are more delectable than meach and were being overrun by, for instance, beech, which is not very productive in that broader sense of habitat. So does fish and game policy for, let's say, antraliths, deer, where there are foresters that are encouraging, know, expanding those production of that population to balance out the forest ecology.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah. We've done a couple of things in in the in the past year to expand opportunities for analyst harvest in urban areas and statewide. So we've rolled out in the past week a press release on expanded archery zones. Mount Kilier is one of those, St. Johnsbury, Winooski, Burlington, South Burlington, have all sort of been given this extra sixteen days of analyst hunting. It will start September 15, this coming year, and folks in those areas barring any ordinances to the contrary can hunt earlier for analyst deer only. We do have an early analyst muzzleloader season that runs for four days immediately preceding the first weekend in in November. Then we've we've gone to, hunting with high powered rifles again for analyst deer during the sixteen day rifle season. This was attempted in the in the '8 late seventies and eighties, and had a had a a detrimental effect to the population. And so we put in place a low permit number to start to see how successful hunters are going to be. We haven't had the opportunity to hunt with high powered rifles for analyst deer in forty plus years.

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: Can you

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: explain what

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: that means high powered rifles?

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. Sure. So right now, as we sit here, well, let's let's say this is 2025. The only way you could harvest an analyst deer, so a a doe or a buck with an antler that you couldn't see. Right? The higher numbers of deer are analyst deer on the landscape. You could only harvest them with archery equipment or with a a primitive weapon, so a muzzleloader. Couldn't hunt them with a high powered rifle. So high powered rifle is a is a modern firearm that you can shoot out to two, three, 400 yards. It's much more much much

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: We're not

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: talking like a semiautomatic weapon or

[Andrew (Fish & Wildlife staff, last name unknown)]: Sure.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: There are some that are semiautomatic, but we we restrict magazine capacity as a department. You can only hunt with a magazine capacity of, so weapon capacity is six, magazine capacity of five, so no platforms that would allow a lot of rounds. But yeah, lot of them are semi automatic and that's common across the country and across hunting except for Pennsylvania strangely. They've only been allowed to hunt with semi automatics for about a year now. But it's common, but yeah, it's more of the projectile and the efficacy of the projectile to reach across three distances. So with a muzzleloader if you saw a deer that was 200 yards away hard to hit, 50 yards and under is what most people I would say prefer out to 100 yards it's okay, but it's all efficacy. And, high powered rifles make it very easy to harvest an analyst deer. And so in the 80s when we did that there were a couple of factors, a lot more hunters on the landscape, lot of non resident hunters, a lot of deer were killed, and then we had a catastrophic winter that cleaned out the rest of them. So we had a long long time to build our herd. We have a great year herd now, lot more lot more forested area where deer can get away from hunters, but it's turning into poor habitat and representative Lipsky is spot on. The habitat is is, has been chewed down to to a nub. Right? We have big mature forests and nothing coming up underneath. We have we have no succession happening. And so, by reducing this analyst population, we feel that we can we can encourage some forest regeneration. And, we'll see if it works. I I I our our deer biologist is a brilliant guy, and I I think if he if he had his way, this would work. Lot of people don't want to shoot analysts here. A lot of hunters don't want to shoot them with a nerve gun. They don't want to shoot them with any gun. They think and to use a farming analogy, you don't shoot your cows. The cows produce everything you need. And there's some other sentiment too that maybe folks couldn't put their finger on. But right now, we're at a time where we need to harvest a lot of these animals here. For context, and I'm not a biologist, but I understand that when a let's say a fawn, excuse me, doe drops two fawns a year, one of them should be a male, one of them should be a female. And if you let that bear out over time, you should have about fifty fifty, forty nine fifty one, something like We're we're very skewed on that in Vermont. I I don't know the exact numbers, but of our 140,000, 150,000 here, we we may have 35,000, $40,000 and a 100,000 bills. So it's very skewed right now. And reducing the animal population is is the way to bring those numbers down. Winter in reality is what manages deer herds, but winners aren't reliable any longer, unfortunately. And so here we are. One of the medicine is very good for you and very good to eat. So Representative Gray.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Commissioner Addison, I the tier three clubs with act 181, there's rulemaking going on in those now. I'm curious to know what the department's role is with that, if you have any information on the mapping and I don't know if there was a role necessarily if there's recommendations at all. Know it has a lot to do with wildlife. Sure. Habitat connectors and corridors and just wondering what your department's role is with that currently. I know there are some folks that are concerned about what that looks like for rural Vermont and areas where they are going to see tier three on land and whether or not they can, you know, what it looks like in terms of, you know, the scope of that two fifty in those zones.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Sure. Representative, I'm gonna have to punt this to one of the other folks in the room. Think if if if we don't know, we can get we can certainly get back to you. Our our wildlife division weighs in heavily on active 50 decisions. Yep. But I'm not up to speed on them, and I'm not gonna try to pretend to be. I wish I was. But I would be happy to get the director while I get in touch with you on that. Because he'll he's he's certainly his our attitude, you know, 50 guru, and his staff were the ones that would answer that for you.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Yeah. I can Even want them out

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: of my way to it. Can I send you an email about it? Please do. Please do. Yeah. Absolutely. Representative Brian.

[Rep. John O'Brien (Member)]: Commissioner, I think one of the fascinating things being where the committee on food and food food security is that being a sheep farmer, there are other sheep farmers here in the room that I suspect we probably eat more venison in Vermont than lamb or mutton or more than goat. It's because it doesn't go through the supermarkets or even very rarely in markets or general stores. It's this sort of hidden source of protein, same with fishing too. It'd be interesting to look at the numbers and say like, Vermont, I know we don't eat much land in general in this country. But in Vermont, it'd be really interesting to know as far as remnants go. Absolutely. After cows panel, it's second.

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: Yeah, I'd love to be in touch with you via email. I wonder if it's knowable. You think it is?

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Probably

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: like, USDA can tell us how much consumption is like livestock and steak. I was just on vacation in The Dominican Republic. A lot of you go with my folks. For some reason there was cheap lamb every night. I have no idea why, but I ate my share, because I don't get a lot of it here.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: Don't get a lot of it here. Yeah.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: We have, in a week or two, the Farm to Plate team coming in and reporting. It might be interesting to talk to them about that question. And I'm not sure that they're looking at proteins from anything other than farmed sources. In the context of 30 by 30, how is that measured or counted? Well, we don't often or never have you in, so thank you for coming in and speaking on this subject. If we've got other questions that come up, we may have you back. Please. Appreciate your your time today. Sorry about

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: the rough start. I'll get better. No. No.

[Rep. Michelle Bos-Lun (Member)]: Well, I know how to sign up.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: No. No. Please don't. Yeah. I'm sorry we couldn't do that. I don't

[Commissioner Jason Batchelder (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department)]: know. Was good for

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Clerk)]: it.

[Rep. David Durfee (Chair)]: Alright. Well, good. Thanks.