SmartTranscript of Senate Transportation -2025-01-17 - 9:00AM

[Speaker 0 ]: You are live. [Rich Westman ]: I'm Rich Westman. I'm chair of the senate transportation committee. It is January seventeenth, and we are here. They hear from you of joint fiscal about transportation with unions. [Speaker 2 ]: K. Of. Great. Yep. So for the [Logan ]: record, Logan with the joint fiscal office. This morning, I just have a brief presentation, to sort of give you a review of the transportation revenues, how they were in f y twenty four this year, and then we'll look at some of the major revenue funds, over time. And this will serve, hopefully, as sort of just an overview of our news. And then I think the second half, the agency is gonna talk about their larger funding study. It's a brief outline. We'll just go through where we've been before this, where we're at currently. And then, like I mentioned, we'll talk about those sort of revenue trends. Where we've [Speaker 2 ]: been, f [Logan ]: five point four close. DeepOn revenues exceeded forecast by about three point six million dollars. DeepOn saw a a modest growth of around two point seven percent year over year, And then we ended the year with about nine point eight million dollars balance, which has been rolled over and is being used at the f y twenty five budget. But all around a decent year, I think, for t fund revenues with that modest growth there. Our forecast came out. New one came out in July while you all are gone. Saw a slight increase over the previous January forecast. We are still forecasted to be declining in our gas tax and our diesel tax as we have been purchasing used is doing decent with projected three point eight percent growth over the five years and DMBPs, and then the miscellaneous revenue is short steady. Total growth we're looking at the t fund over five years is one point four four percent, so not great, but still growing slightly. And then you'll see at the bottom, the TIF fund, which is a gas and diesel tax assessment, is projected to do a a slight decline for the next five years. And a little pie chart there if you're interested in how these different products make [Speaker 4 ]: up the tax that they [Logan ]: can find as a whole, mainly come from being VP's and the purchase and use. And as we expect, the the gas tax and diesel tax has a a larger a large percentage would decline in percentage as the years go on. [Patrick Murphy ]: So Yes, please. [Rich Westman ]: I wanna break in specifically when Tom Covette comes in in around, this is pretty standard. This is what it's been looking like for ages. Yep. What we really live like from Tom Cabette is not an update on the numbers because the six month numbers don't mean really all that much. We have to build a budget to them. What we really wanna dig into going forward is what's behind each of these and, and what what are we looking at as we're gonna do them? These are basically up because of purchase and use tax. Well, purchase and use tax is the most volatile of these and will go down where we get it as soon as we have a recession. So as I need to get the message either conveyed to Tom or to join fiscal Sure. Or I'd have a conversation with him before. We really wanna dig into what's behind this. Yeah. Correct. So [Logan ]: just to continue on a little left on all the forecast there if you're if you're interested to see what that slight growth was. It was couple million, looks like two million for this year, less than one percent growth, but definitely better than a decline. Where are we now? FY twenty five so far, the chief on revenues have been good this year. We are currently about four four point two million dollars above the forecasted revenue. I will note that that was only through December. We still have half a year to go. But, so far, revenues are doing pretty well with, again, that purchase and use, bringing in a lot of the excess additional revenue that we see. And right now, we're about two point seven percent above our forecasted estimates. And here it is month to month if you wanna see collections. So, hopefully, this trend continues, but we'll have to see how the rest of the year plays out. So that's sort of where we were, where we are now, sort of [Rich Westman ]: point of [Logan ]: time, and now we'll look sort of at these major revenue sources that were transit and sort of give you a a look back and see how they've done over over a longer period of time. So the first slide is the transportation fund as a whole. This is going back to fiscal year twenty thirteen. You'll see sort of the solid bars there are the refund revenues as they come in, and then they're projected out to twenty twenty nine using the forecast. And then that dashed line is if you were to correct those numbers for inflation. So we're getting them all steady at that twenty thirteen dollar value. You'll see that in terms of sort of purchasing power, the t fund has declined and is projected to continue to decline. And I think we're probably slightly below the purchasing power we had back in twenty thirteen. And you'll see in the next slides as I go through the the the revenues. This is a a trend that we see in a lot of our revenue streams. [Speaker 2 ]: And is this the interest that's [Logan ]: forecasted is, like, three percent or what? Yeah. Yeah. So I think you saw this in fact chart in and in appropriations. This is from Chris. He used a three percent assumption on the years out, so we don't know what the says no. Yeah. We don't know what the the actual inflation rate will be in the future. So it's just a guess. It could be higher. It could be lower. But [Speaker 6 ]: Is there any [Logan ]: way to [Speaker 6 ]: ask me that, obviously? The available, can you can you explain the available? [Logan ]: Sure. Yeah. So this is just what our revenue that came in was in that year. So sort of a nominal revenue value. So in twenty thirteen, the T Fund brought in two point or two hundred and twenty eight million dollars. FY twenty four, we brought in three hundred and three million dollars. That's in twenty twenty four dollar values. So that's including sort of the inflationary growth. If you sort of correct for that and hold everything level at that twenty thirteen level, that's where that dotted line is. So that's sort of So [Speaker 6 ]: real Right. You're available. [Rich Westman ]: What you're what you're looking at is in three hundred and thirteen million, we've lost about a hundred million dollars worth of spending. So we've lost about a third of our capacity. [Speaker 2 ]: Available? [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. No. I understand. [Speaker 2 ]: Fine. That or not available. Fine. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. I thought available might be things that weren't committed to debt or something. [Logan ]: No. Sorry. That is just, you know, [Speaker 4 ]: collect No. [Speaker 6 ]: It's just collected, actually. Okay. Yes. [Rich Westman ]: This is just revenue. Okay. So our buying power is off by about a hundred million. [Speaker 6 ]: I understand. [Logan ]: And so we can look at the I I did a similar thing for the the big the big revenue sources. So here's the gas tax. One thing to note, this chart went back to twenty thirteen. When I was working on these, I did it back to twenty fifteen, so there's a two year, but similar trend. You'll see not only is our gas tax and surge nominal values declining, but then when you, adjust this for that inflation as well, the picture is a little stark period in there. Diesel tax, largely the same as gas tax. Purchase and use, this is one that we have seen an increase in. As you mentioned, the purchase and use is doing okay. So when holding for inflation, we do still see some growth in this revenue source, which is good. The MVPs, a slight decrease there. Not as bad as as some of our other ones such as gas stack and diesel tags. There's a question. [Speaker 0 ]: Okay. Do you have a comparison of what it would be if we had not raised the fees? Or do you have a sense of if the legislature had not proactively [Logan ]: For the DMPPs. I mean [Speaker 0 ]: Where would we be? [Logan ]: I don't. I do know we did raise this sort of at the very end there. That sort of bumped up. It's largely attributed to the the fee increase that we did. I I don't know what that exact dollar number is, so I could probably find that out for you. [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. [Speaker 2 ]: In twenty two or twenty [Logan ]: So it was passed in twenty three, but effective January one point four. So about a year ago now. But I I I did find those numbers [Speaker 0 ]: for you. I think that would be helpful because one [Speaker 6 ]: of the pieces that has come [Speaker 0 ]: up for many of my constituents is that the legislature forced DMV to raise their fees inappropriately because their budget actually didn't reflect that need. And I think what I'm even seeing here is that doesn't add up when I look at the cost of inflation and the actual buying power. We would be even lower than we would be if we had not done that. So it'd be nice to be able to provide that comparison to make the case on why we do like to see an incremental increase in fees, especially with rising utilization. [Speaker 4 ]: Yep. I can do that. [Speaker 0 ]: Thank you. [Logan ]: And then almost done here. Other revenue sources, this is our sort of bunch of different revenues, and I'll go into this. Similar picture, we have seen a plate increase in the years just due to increased collections, but still the difference between the nominal and the inflation adjusted numbers is still pretty stark. And then my last slide, I took the the first key fund revenue one that you saw, and I just took it all the way back to j June of two thousand one to give you an even longer term look at holding all numbers sort of at that two thousand one level. You can see the difference there. Twenty twenty four, we're we're collecting three hundred three in sort of a nominal value. The actual inflation adjusted is around a hundred and seventy two million in twenty or two thousand one dollars. So over the past, what, this would be twenty four years, we actually have less purchasing power than we did in two thousand one. And that was the last slide I had on this. Have you take questions? Generally, this is just sort of an overview of our different funds and and sort of where we're at now, sort of set the stage for for Patrick's discussion on the, transportation planning study that was requested of the agency last year, and the report just came out on the same team. So [Speaker 0 ]: Thank you, mister chair. I appreciate you spending the time specifically looking at the state numbers. Is there any place that we could see how the towns are doing in relation to their own funding on transportation? Does that exist somewhere? [Logan ]: I do not know of one single place to see that besides asking towns, for the data efforts in the town budgets. To do a sort of a a long thing like this, you have to get through years of budgets to my knowledge, but I have so I'm not familiar with, like, one place where easily could find all that [Patrick Murphy ]: information. Okay. [Logan ]: Yeah. Outside of asking the towns themselves too. [Speaker 2 ]: You remind me what the other revenue for the transportation [Logan ]: So so for this one, other revenues, this is sort of all the there's, like, a bunch of them. There's, like, jet fuel sales, overweight, permitting. There's a whole list of of little Yeah. Fees that go into this. I can get you a list if you're interested in all of those. There's a bunch of them. [Rich Westman ]: Are you do you include the TIB bond fund in those? No. [Logan ]: So this this doesn't include the TIB bond. TIB is great for gas and diesel assessment, so it'd be largely similar to these charts, just smaller numbers because we collect smaller to a TIB fund. [Rich Westman ]: Maybe. Because these are a set penny per gallon. [Speaker 2 ]: Right. [Rich Westman ]: The tip bond fund is more like a sales tax. So as wholesale prices go up, it's bump. You get so I I'm not sure that that's the case. [Logan ]: Well, gas consumption has declined and pivot based on so you'd largely see a decline in the tip on so if the numbers would be slightly different, but I think the overall trend would still be a decrease, in the tip numbers. I'm I'm happy to do the the tip on it. You're interested in seeing those numbers? [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. The the this has both the decline in usage of gas and the fact that it's flat. That has declining usage, but it's a sales tax. So when it it would be interesting to see what the difference was between that because there is no flavor in that and not this. Perfect. I can I can do the check on the survey? It's very much like the difference between the general fund and the ed fund and the t fund is all of the stuff you would t fund or the vast majority except for purchase and use. In the fee fund doesn't have an inflator. It's all flat. And, you know, in a general fund, Incotex, you get brackets and you get bracket creep. In the Ed Fund, with with we all know real estate prices have gone up. So [Speaker 2 ]: Go ahead. And, Logan, could you Yes. Do that? How else have they have ever reached its maximum or minimum amounts? [Logan ]: I can tell you that the four percent that goes on the gas tax that's never reached its maximum almost always has collected its minimum. Actually, there's been a few times where it's been above its minimum, but largely, it's flexed its minimum. Two percent. I'd have to check-in that on fluctuates more just because it's [Speaker 2 ]: a smaller Right. Percentage. And can you also show me the data on the jet fuel? That's it. Sales over time? Yep. [Speaker 4 ]: It's a [Speaker 6 ]: so you'll send it to all of us. Right? [Patrick Murphy ]: Sure. [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. [Logan ]: I'll get it. [Speaker 2 ]: And if you're nice, I'll [Rich Westman ]: get it. Go ahead. [Speaker 0 ]: So one thing that has surprised me that I remember from house transportation is that there are transfers to and from the t fund for different purposes. And in the same way that we've made arguments, you know, is there a pure education fund? It's kind of the same conversation with the t fund. Yeah. And there's the JTOC transfer, and I don't remember if we did or didn't do that last time. But could you talk about where transfers would show up in this and how we can think about that? [Logan ]: So you'll see this isn't all of them, but if you go back to this where I have the operating [Speaker 0 ]: center Right. Look at you. [Logan ]: So there's the information centers that goes to BGS to for their work on the the sort of implementation stations on the highway there. It's four point two million dollars last year. There's the transfer for the pay act twice on weekly payroll. And then, Jay talked to one you were discussing is there. It's twenty and a quarter. It has been that I think statutorily is that number. So that's sort of the biggest one. There are some other ones that aren't on here such as a transfer to downtown fund, the Amazon Recreational Trail Fund. Yeah. Oh, down there at the bottom. Yeah. So those are Yeah. From the website. Transfer to those funds from the meeting. Yeah. [Patrick Murphy ]: And then yes. So but [Logan ]: I could I can get you the the full list of transfers that we do if you're interested in those. [Speaker 0 ]: Yeah. I think it would be helpful to understand where we're taking money out because we're often told that the t funds can't sustain, you know, doing certain, I'd say, priority that the legislature has, and then it seems like we're transferring quite a bit of money to other priorities. So I'd love to see kind of where that falls. If if you're gonna get into that, then you [Rich Westman ]: wanna get into what they're being used for. Exactly. Yeah. And then And you're basically looking at the rest centers on the interstate, and you're looking at state police. [Speaker 0 ]: Is that straight? No. Jay Tacos. [Logan ]: Jay Tacos to the state police. [Speaker 2 ]: Okay. And [Speaker 0 ]: and then the twenty seventh week thing, I know we talked about that years ago. [Speaker 6 ]: So this So [Logan ]: that's the number that the agency calculates, and that's I guess I'm not sure on the specifics right now. It goes to pay for payroll and stuff like that. Yes. [Rich Westman ]: This year. When do you make your payment? [Speaker 6 ]: Yes. Thank you. So these transfers, are they typically the same transfers each year, the same types of transfers? [Logan ]: Yeah. Largely, a lot of these are sort of statutory required transfers that we make. Some of them [Rich Westman ]: I can [Logan ]: find it on here. Some of them are, like, one time transfers that occur to and from different funds. [Speaker 6 ]: So the garage fund looks like it was Yes. [Logan ]: This is one year not getting Yes. So that one was actually not withstood last year. So, normally, there is a transfer, I think, is also in statute, but I'd have to check on that, a transfer to the central branch fund, which we can get into that fund then. And what it does if you're interested in last year, we decided to not withstand that so that the agencies didn't have to make that transfer to how they could use those funds elsewhere. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. So does is that a capital fund? Does it go into a capital fund, or is it [Logan ]: Which is the central garage. The garage fund. No. So that is [Speaker 6 ]: just the maintenance. [Logan ]: That's a fund within the sort of within AOT that goes to their central garage, which is essentially a big garage. Again, AOT can talk to this in more detail. And then I believe different departments within the agency pay the central garage to sort of rent vehicles and then the garage that's maintenance on the vehicles. We can get into this. [Patrick Murphy ]: Oh, interesting. Okay. [Speaker 6 ]: Instead of just having an appropriation, sort of having that built in item. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. Sort of [Logan ]: a a budgetary way to make the call work. And, again, I think we could have AOT come in, and they can give you sort of the the details on how they calculate all that and whatnot. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. So then just the stabilization reserve and the maximum balance, if you could just explain that. [Logan ]: There's the stable stabilization reserve. There's a five percent maximum that we meet, but five percent of the prior year appropriation. So that transfer [Rich Westman ]: would be It it takes a limit. I believe it's a max. Point five, it's at five if if they were required. [Logan ]: I guess I can double check on that. I my understanding, I thought it was a maximum that we always meet, but maybe it is a minimum. So I'll I'll go. [Rich Westman ]: We can we could put more into it if we wanted. We do basically what the bonding agencies would look at. And and I think the statute is it so it would be helpful to know that exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because we could always increase that. [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. Minimum makes sense. Yeah. [Speaker 0 ]: That that'd be good. [Logan ]: What was your other competitor? [Speaker 6 ]: No. That was it. Okay. I I mean, the two are the same number, so that's why I was saying the stabilization of five percent. Yes. [Rich Westman ]: Thank you. What this doesn't have, and it gives me right now a year for this year, there are a number of things in transportation that the general fund has funded and set aside. And it's that's gonna be important as we put together next year's budget. There's twelve and a half set aside for, to make the federal match that came from the general fund, and he's sitting there waiting for us to use, in anticipation that with with these revenues in the downturn, we can't make the match. And then the money that if it's in this year's budget that our vice chair keeps bringing up is twelve million in EV incentives is general funders. So it's not exactly in here or counted, But I think it needs to be recognized that if you consider encouraging UBs, that's been a general fund. That's when money set aside in the general fund. [Speaker 0 ]: Yeah. Thank you, mister chair. [Speaker 6 ]: One of the pieces that has come up [Speaker 0 ]: quite a bit, and I think the chair just alluded to it, is that we won't be able to meet our federal tax requirements to get the things that we'd want to drop down those funds. I have a I that feels like a a very frequently used argument one way or the other, and I never quite know the basis of fact of how much money we truly have and if it's earmarked, then that has to be used for a match or how all of that gets figured out. So what amount of money do we have that we can consider to be used for a federal match? And is it project specific? I mean, maybe that's when we get to the budget, but what revenues of ours here can be counted towards a federal match? [Logan ]: So, yes, that is largely determined by the projects that that AOT undertakes, and I'm sure when the budget comes out, we have a better sense of that. I don't past years, the agency has also given presentations on sort of their expected federal funds and what the math requirement to jot those down are. I'm sure they'd be happy to come bring those in again, but I a lot of federal money is tied to projects and how we use it. There's also competitive grants and earmarks. All of this, I think, probably best to hear from the agents on that as as they would they would sort of know best on that. [Speaker 6 ]: But all of the revenues that [Speaker 0 ]: we see here could theoretically be used because they're state rate funds? [Logan ]: Or is Theoretically, yeah. I guess, maybe I'm not understanding your question. Theoretically, yes. There are a number of things that AOT does that are not eligible for federal dollars, such as maintenance or the DMV, I believe, have to be state funded. So maintenance is a significant portion is a hundred and some million dollars last year, all state dollars. But when we're talking projects and, like, highway stuff, a lot of that is projects that have federal dollars attached to it. Again, once we get the budget for this year, I think we'll be able to sort of see where our federal money is going and then look at the state dollars sort of needed to pull that down as well. Thank you. Of course. [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. The [Speaker 2 ]: reserve is does that not not exceed five percent? [Rich Westman ]: That's just saying not exceed, But we can put [Speaker 2 ]: We can put an order in. [Rich Westman ]: And it's always a question of whether or not does it happen in a moment? [Speaker 2 ]: No. It just does I don't if there's if there's money, it automatically goes there, not to exceed five percent. I think that's why they have the the not to exceed because it's an automatic [Rich Westman ]: because it's an automatic income. But No. We could add more. We could add more. It's quite frequent when it comes up, should our reserves be at eighty percent. K. Thank you. [Speaker 6 ]: Can I ask for one other question? [Rich Westman ]: Sure. Go ahead. [Speaker 0 ]: So in your in this one, you have the nine point eight balance rolling forward. [Logan ]: Yep. [Speaker 0 ]: Why isn't that just using [Speaker 6 ]: why didn't we put that Hertz the twelve million, like, into the general fund? I guess I'm confused by [Logan ]: so that that is sort of an accounting thing that is being used in the current year's budget to fund sort of the projects. So that's makes up some of the the the forecast we see. There's some of the three point six, but then also, reversions are improving that. So AOT can shift projects to sort of balance their budget next year. So that nine point eight was on the bottom line of the f y twenty four budget, but is on the bottom line to be used in the current budget. And we can go through the the sort of operating statement for f y twenty five if you're interested and and see how the money in this current year's budget is being used, but it's largely to make everything sort of full. [Speaker 0 ]: And are those the projects at the back of the book? Like, it's like, you know, they have, like, a list that was like there's usually, like, a couple pages at the end that are like, if we can, we do these. [Logan ]: So this might not necessarily has to be a type gen specific project. Okay. It kind of you can think of it as sort of additional or revenue that is gonna be used within their appropriated budget. It's not specifically for one project or another necessarily. I suppose it could be. I think the agency can maybe come in and and talk to you about where they're they're using their carry forwards and their reversions and stuff like that if you're interested, but I don't think it's necessarily, like, half to go to one place for another. [Speaker 0 ]: And what does reversion mean? [Logan ]: So that's money that the agency was appropriated but are not going to use that year, so they reverted back to the t fund to be reused in the next year. Okay. [Rich Westman ]: So I think at this point, if we need to move on to Patrick, we just just study sparingly with [Logan ]: Sure. And I'm happy to answer any questions. Oh, there's a [Speaker 2 ]: thought. So so Good. Thanks. We got [Speaker 6 ]: pretty good JFOs. Patrick, we should. [47 seconds of silence] [Patrick Murphy ]: Morning, Patrick. Good morning, mister chair, members. For the record, my name is Patrick Murphy, state's policy director of the agency of transportation. Here this morning to talk about transportation funding study that was required by last year's transportation bill. And this this language is taken directly from the transportation bill. It's asking the agency to look at current funding levels, what the sustainability of the revenue sources and distribution were, and future trends, particularly around inflation, safety needs, equity, electrification, and climate change, and then exploring new funding approaches and alternative solutions that have been used or likewise being explored by other states, to look at how those other funding mechanism mechanisms might work with a mileage based user phase, which is something that the agency has been working on since twenty twenty one, and then developing revenue generation projections for those various funding mechanisms. I think it's important maybe to to note here that, you know, this this is not sort of a budgetary exercise. What we're looking at in terms of estimated funding needs is really taking what we have now and and having rough approximations out ten years and then understanding what is sort of the magnitude of the revenue boxes that we might see from electrification, from just the general fuel efficiency of the fleet. So, our process was a type of timeframe we began work after we had a consultant under contract in September to define the parameters of the study to be able to engage with some stakeholders including the chairs of the transportation committees from last year and make sure that what was coming out of the study was what was envisioned. Then we engage program staff with the consultants to get a better understanding of what the funding needs were, the specific context for the different program areas, and then what we might be looking at over the next ten years, to quantify those need and then began looking at what gaps might come about because of that based on revenue projections. So, as I said, it's not, you know, the agency's budget. It's just estimates of what needs might be. These are the main light items that you'll see in our education program. And as with higher studies that were conducted by the agency in twenty thirteen and twenty sixteen, we see significant revenue gaps in the out years. In the first twenty thirteen study upon which this study was based, the budget at that time was somewhere around four hundred million dollars four fifty million dollars and we were projecting out revenue of revenue gas of about two hundred fifty million dollars. So estimating our funding needs of seven hundred. [Rich Westman ]: Can you talk to us a little bit about what the GAFID machine, I guess, is? [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. So Okay. What what we really looked at is just basic main maintenance of our core transportation system. It's not adding additional initiatives to the transportation program. It's looking at whether we need to continue funding the work that we're doing. And that's based on, you know, federal highway performance measures meeting those k. Goals around pavement conditions and all kinds of safety requirements. So, it's very much driven by, FHWA funding requirements by statute and and not trying to go beyond that in estimating how it's needed. K. Okay. [Speaker 6 ]: Thank you. So on the two big ones, the pavement needs and the bridge needs [Patrick Murphy ]: Sure. [Speaker 6 ]: Did you project the future numbers just by increasing them by a certain amount, or is that based on actual, [Patrick Murphy ]: like, bridges? So we're looking backwards at what the the needs have been, but then applying, factor to increase [Speaker 4 ]: Okay. [Patrick Murphy ]: Per year. [Speaker 6 ]: So each of these increases for the same the same amount? [Patrick Murphy ]: The different line items don't necessarily increase by the same percentage. No. [Rich Westman ]: I understand. [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. Okay. So with construction, we assumed a a five percent increase because we have seen significant inflationary pressures that that Jeremy will be able to speak to later. But for the other line items, we're we're either assuming a two and a half or or three percent increase. So because they're not for example, DMV is is not seeing necessarily the same sort of inflationary pressures as what's in the, you know, construction realm. [Rich Westman ]: Okay. Yeah. Sorry. [Speaker 2 ]: Yeah. So two that seem to be very different. I've had this. Aviation is very, you know, more than double this time. No. [Rich Westman ]: No. No. No. No. No. [Speaker 2 ]: No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No [Speaker 7 ]: Sure. [Patrick Murphy ]: So another thing I should have said at the beginning is that we have a couple of concurrent studies going on. The CAFE and best study was meant to really focus on what our our climate needs, in the transportation sector. And so that did that did not factor into our report. We sort of left that bit of analysis Mhmm. To the consultants on that project. A cap and invest system would be years out. So we for the purposes of this study, we just looked at what sort of continuing some of our electrification programs would look like into the next couple of years, and that's why you see a drop off. [Speaker 7 ]: Or so that could be That [Patrick Murphy ]: those incentives were environmental fault and system. That's right. That's in the line item for that. [Speaker 7 ]: Okay. After what if I'm looking at payment first on the big proponent of paving, and it takes a huge jump to fill that gap if you go from now till after twenty thirty five. Is that what triggers that? Is that because we're not paving enough? Is that because the cost of goods is escalating? Or [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. This is one of the line items that I think was using a five percent increase year over year That is based on the, yeah, deflationary pressures on on materials and [Rich Westman ]: So this includes all this is not just date specific money. This includes the federal money. It does. Yeah. So because I was trying to A lot of inherited this chart from here [Patrick Murphy ]: to be able to So this is you know, and about fifty four percent of Yeah. The age. So I did it as federal. So, you know, aviation and rail just mentioned those are largely federal. [Speaker 6 ]: And there is more detail on the assumptions in that report. [Speaker 2 ]: Yes. Yeah. Would you [Patrick Murphy ]: So, it's just jolting off of what, the joint fiscal lock has just presented, looking at historical trends for gallons of fuels tags. And you can see just a consistent decrease in the amount that's being taxed due largely in the beginning to fuel efficiency of the fleet. And then as you move into, you know, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, there's an increasing impact from electrification. For diesel, that's a little more constant and because of just a different nature, meaning how you do your vehicles, freight travel, and then needs to This summarizes current source of the funding of the question earlier about other revenues. So it's overweight preference, the jet fuel inspection fees. And so we have fuel taxes and vehicle purchase and used tax with two thirds of that staying at the transportation fund, the third going to the education fund. We have DMV fees that were just recently increased to twenty twenty three. And then, as I said just a minute ago, federal funding, which accounts for more than half of what we spend. So this is looking both at Ashkel's and what we're projecting. You can see that the purchase and use tax has accounted for an increasing percentage of our overall revenue. At the same time, the fuel fuel taxes are decreasing and that trend is expected to continue. [Speaker 6 ]: Question on this one? Sure. Purchase and use, that is a general tax, and I assume that this is a proportion of those revenues, a proportion of that Yes. [Patrick Murphy ]: This is so the this is just a first, we measure percentages, not [Speaker 6 ]: No. I understand. Let me ask you a question. So but but purchase and use funds things other than transportation. Right? [Patrick Murphy ]: That's right. So [Speaker 6 ]: What amount is this of the total purchase and use? How much is going to transportation? Third. [Patrick Murphy ]: This is [Speaker 7 ]: two thirds [Speaker 6 ]: Two thirds of purchase and use? [Patrick Murphy ]: Purchase and use. A third then goes to education. [Speaker 0 ]: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Yep. [Patrick Murphy ]: So this is to get a sense of expected revenue declines and and what accounts for what part of those declines. So what this doesn't show you is sort of the historical decline. So where we are right now and the erosion that has happened over, say, the past twelve years since the gas tax was last modified. But it does show that in in the next several years, we're going to lose a lot more to electrification. [Rich Westman ]: So my my my question was that how much is this in total related to electrification, and how much of this is more efficient gas and and engines and and diesel engines so we could draw a line between them. Right. Because in many cases, people would people that work in electric vehicles and say electric vehicles are carrying their share of the upkeep of the roads. It would be nice to be able to bring that in. [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. So what you're seeing here in the in the green is attributed to electric vehicles, and then in the I'll get this wrong. It's navy blue, maybe. Yeah. [Speaker 7 ]: Or or [Rich Westman ]: gallon improvement. Yeah. But that like, that's great. Okay. Thank you. I I can see that you answered the question in the chart. Sorry. [Speaker 2 ]: And how do you attribute savings for a hybrid? Is that an NTG benefit, or is that [Patrick Murphy ]: an electrification? That's attributed to the NavyBlue. Okay. Yeah. The fuel efficiency. So we're just looking here at [Speaker 2 ]: And with the plug in hybrid or with the plug in hybrid, do you try to separate the [Patrick Murphy ]: It would it's the same would be for a plug in hybrid. Yeah. You put it [Speaker 2 ]: in the blue you put m m p g. Yeah. [Patrick Murphy ]: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think you would you would find that probably the the way that folks in Vermont use plug in hybrids would would be closer to a conventional hybrid than kind of a fully electric vehicle. K? [Speaker 2 ]: Go. [Speaker 6 ]: Thank [Speaker 0 ]: you, mister chair. I have some concerns about this chart because I think it paints an inaccurate picture to where we are today and kind of the driving forces for our revenue decline that I would anticipate. It seems like it's based off of the assumption that we would still have electric vehicle incentives that would promote adoption, which seems to not be funded moving forward. And it also see that's my assumption. So if you could get that wrong. If this is not based on assuming we would have incentives at the federal or state level, then and then people would just purchase these vehicles at a traditional rate. And then I'm also confused because I don't see any decrease being shown in drivers just driving less, like less overall driving, which seemed to be our main transition that we experienced during COVID that helped us reach our carbon emissions reduction strategies oddly enough during COVID. So I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to overall reduction in driving as the cost of gas outside of our control continues to go up as well and if you factor that into these at [Patrick Murphy ]: all. Well, I think, you know, we did see a decrease in the pandemic. We also saw a a rebound not quite to the same pre COVID levels. This does this study that this chart this study does assume, you know, some increase in vehicle miles, the travel based on population growth Okay. A number of other factors. So I I think it's important to recognize what the purpose of the chart is, and it's to give a sense of the scale of the forces that played and and what we might expect for revenues losses. The assumptions that are driving the numbers here for electrification and what our losses might be are were developed in terms of by Velco of several years ago that looked at a low, medium, and high Yeah. Level of adoption. Yes. We are at, right now, tracking with the medium very closely Oh. With the medium level of adoption that was projected in in those estimates and actually a bit higher than the medium scenario. We are very quickly approaching the sort of what others have deemed as the tipping point to mainstream vehicle, electric vehicle adoption. And, you know, despite the fact that there are potentially changes on the horizon federally, There have been significant investments in electrification by the automakers. We don't expect that. It would just be, turned back immediately. We we continue to see even after state incentives ran out of funding in October. We continue to see vehicle purchases at similar levels. So I I think, you know, while we might not be at the same on the same curve as we had been given all the different factors, we are still going to see increase in electric vehicle adoption, and and we have to account for that in in our planning and projections. [Speaker 0 ]: So Thank you. That's very helpful. [Rich Westman ]: Would be helpful if you just gotta check the Federal Highway Administration cracks miles traveled per vehicle. And if you just get that chart, I think you can speak for it. So Sure. [Speaker 0 ]: Can I just confirm [Speaker 6 ]: what what I heard? So what I heard was the incentives the state incentives ended in October of last year. [Patrick Murphy ]: That's right. [Speaker 6 ]: But the purchase, I don't know if it's by vehicle numbers probably, Rates in Vermont state is the same of of electric vehicles. Is that accurate? [Patrick Murphy ]: So and so I'm not yeah. Not behind me. But his organization, beta tracks the percentage of new vehicle sales that are electric. Oh, the percentage? [Rich Westman ]: Month to month. Okay. So that might be the same amount. But [Patrick Murphy ]: In October of twenty twenty four so we ran out of funding the very first week of October. Of October twenty twenty four, the big new vehicle sales were fourteen point six percent for electric. [Speaker 0 ]: K. [Patrick Murphy ]: The following month, it was slightly less, third thirteen percent or so. But, you know, we're we're not seeing a dramatic different vehicle sales. And it's important to note that the state of Vermont, even though the state incentives are in place, we have a very robust set of incentives on the utility scale. Our local utilities offer incentives that that rival many other states that offer them. Yeah. And then we do still have in place the Inflation Reduction Act credits that are available at point of sale. So and until that is modified, I you know, we we can't really speak to what might happen in the next several weeks. [Speaker 6 ]: Alright. That's helpful. Thanks. So it would actually be great to have that statement or information in a separate place. [Patrick Murphy ]: Sure. Well, we we have other reports that for [Speaker 6 ]: I have that. [Speaker 2 ]: You [Patrick Murphy ]: know, for instead of report due on the thirty first of this month around incentive programs, and so we'll get into that. Right. Right. For sure. Thank you. So very quickly, we went through and had some key criteria by to evaluate all of the different revenue mechanisms that we might look at. I won't go into this in great detail. I recognize that we're running behind at the same time. But but we did wanna sort of set the stage for how we would evaluate each, revamp mechanism. So we with the the quarterly consultants, we looked at how did each of these different measures align, with those principles. And you you can sort of you know, this is, somewhat subjective. And, you know, so it's it's, in some ways, the best guess in terms of how it lines up with, you know, appropriateness for state level implementation. But there are some things that are really sort of important to note about these different measures. Revenue sustainability is which is looking at how can the revenue mechanism maintain the ability to, to raise revenue over time. So the gas tax isn't doing that. The chair mentioned earlier purchase and use tax, that that's highly volatile and that, you know, in down downturns, we can see sharp decreases in that. So looking at how how to, say, diversify its source of revenue, looking at how does it maintain those revenues over time? So I I I I think I'll let you sit with this, and we can kind of take it up maybe at another date. But but we I'll just go quickly through the measures that we did look at. We narrowed down a a list that we took from the twenty thirteen study to twenty sixteen study, and and I'll finally take a deeper dive into these, and sort of ruled out a a number of others that didn't quite, make sense for Vermont. And in the report, you can go through and kind of see quite our rationale for, for not going in a deeper analysis on those. But we looked at gas tax indexing, which is essentially just, you know, creating a way to keep up with the pace of inflation, same from the diesel tax. The mileage based user fee is something that we are actively pursuing, for light duty electric vehicles. In November, we were awarded a federal grant to be able to continue that work towards implementation. So that is one that that we looked at. Our consultant then went beyond that and looked at if that were to be successful, how would we down the road be able to transition the rest of of the fleet to account for those losses to fuel efficiency? For mileage based unit fee, again, for medium and heavy duty vehicles, we just looked at, those vehicles that would be electric. That is a small number of vehicles at this point. It's at a very different stage of adoption because of vehicle availability and, a number of other factors, that have not yet been worked out, for a place like Vermont. And then we looked at retail delivery fees and transportation network company fees. So the retail delivery fees, the way we model that was it's just a a flat fee of thirty cents. That's just an assumption to give you a sense of what could be raised, but, of course, that's for I wouldn't say to you inside. A transportation network company is your Uber or Lyft. And then a mileage based registration fee is looking at tying the amount that someone pays to the fuel efficiency of the vehicle. So the higher the fuel efficiency, the higher the amount would be paid to sort of account for what's been lost to the gas tax revenue. That is something that's been done in Virginia. And then lastly, tire fees was looked at. It's primarily in other states, a measure that's meant to encourage recycling of tires. And there are some issues that we'll get into, with that. But, some have brought it up in the in the context of electric vehicles where they tend to be heavier vehicles. There's more wear and tear on the road, and therefore, there's also more wear and tear on the tires, and so they tend to be replaced more quickly. [Speaker 2 ]: So why don't you have a red dot for sustainability on that one? Seems like the way you just said [Logan ]: it would. [Patrick Murphy ]: That that is revenue and sustainability. [Speaker 2 ]: Yeah. Why would you say it's not sustainable? [Patrick Murphy ]: So people there's a much longer time frame where people pay for tires than than, you know, an annual registration fee and and that sort of thing. There is we also kind of accounted for the potential unintended consequence of people just not replacing their tires as often, and that has safety implications that we we want to avoid. [Speaker 2 ]: That would be the most painful. [Patrick Murphy ]: Well, if people are trying their own to avoid the the time cost them. Yeah. Alright. Well, I think what we modeled was I have to go back to it, but I think it was [Rich Westman ]: I could more like five dollars per tire. So in the different categories of is there you you mentioned the registration piece that Virginia's doing there. Are there examples of what other states who's done what? Sure. Mileage, basically, who's implemented something? Right. Virginia's implemented something on registration fees. It would be interesting to see us being small. I'm inclined to, once I look at stuff, wanna go with stuff where somebody else has experienced the pitfalls. They tried it out first. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, a mileage based fee, depending on how you calculate and depending on how you deal with probably require IT systems that are pretty significant. So it just would be interesting to see who's implementing stuff and what's working and what is them. Yes. Yeah. And it [Patrick Murphy ]: some of that could be in the report. There is, for indexing of the fuel taxes, I think twenty two states, in the District of Columbia has implemented, something along those lines. Mileage based user fees. Hawaii is the only one that's inactive mandatory program. It won't be mandatory until twenty twenty eight, But they're they're still furthest along. Other states, Washington, Utah, have Oregon have pilot programs that they've [Rich Westman ]: it would just Sure. That it's great that you don't get in some place where I could see to [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. So we we can draw it out from the report and put it into sort of a That would be a simpler chart. That would be great. [Speaker 0 ]: Yeah. Mister chair, there was a really fantastic presentation at the National Conference of State Legislators from a few of the states that have implemented, I would say, like, some phase of miles based Mhmm. User fees that they've already, like, made that you want we can send out. [Speaker 6 ]: That must be very helpful. [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. Sure. And then so I'll I'll run through [Rich Westman ]: these very quickly to Yeah. I would also suspect that that our agency belongs to national groups that deal specifically with transportation, and I'm sure that they have seen that too. [Speaker 0 ]: Yeah. I think it was your message, though. Okay. [Patrick Murphy ]: So we we are an active part of the Eastern Transportation Coalition, which is where a lot of the work on the mileage has taken place. And not only did we participate for a hoarder grant through for just Vermont, but we also are participating on a on a joint grant with with that coalition. So gas tax indexing, as I said before, this still suffers from the same dynamic that the gas tax itself suffers. So as we have greater fuel efficiency, [Rich Westman ]: you [Patrick Murphy ]: know, that over time, the revenue sustainability of it is not quite as stable as what we want it to be. So the amount of revenue that we might be able to raise from it is also more modest than some of the others. And then it also has equity impacts that we've looked at. People with less fuel efficient vehicles would be hit hardest. Diesel tax still has the same dynamics at play, maybe less so on the equity and tax, which are mostly on commercial vehicles. But, nevertheless, there's still silver things to consider. A mileage based user fee looked at has a lot of revenue potential given what we expect for UB adoption. There is an upfront cost to be able to implement something like that as Chair alluded to. That's why we would have federal funding to be able to do that. We also, in the state of Vermont, because of investments that, you all have made into, DMV and their IT core systems, we are better positioned than a lot of other states, half of whom are still operating under very old IT systems and wouldn't be able to to sort of transition as quickly as we expect to. [Rich Westman ]: And, you know, get any estimates on if we went full bore into something like this, what's when would we be able to implement? [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. So the we are hoping to be able to implement mileage based meter feed for electric vehicles only by July of twenty twenty six if the legislature passes statute that allowed us to do that. Just the the larger transition towards a mileage stage two fifty four, all vehicles would would have to happen on a much lengthier, timeline. Yes. [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. That's what [Speaker 6 ]: you Thank you. So is the reason for the difference something about the cars, or is [Rich Westman ]: it the quantity of the vehicles? [Patrick Murphy ]: I think it's so right now, we have electric vehicles that are paying not well. They're starting to pay something. So you pay [Speaker 6 ]: No. No. I I I understand the the [Patrick Murphy ]: Well, yeah, the one part of it. Maybe I Yeah. So what I'm getting at is for right now, we have electric vehicles that are, for the most part, paying, little towards or nothing, actually, towards the road network, towards bridge construction, all all of that. So it's a much different proposition to introduce electric vehicles to a mileage based user feed that has some imperfections. We we make it fairer by introducing a mileage based user fee for electric vehicles to pay something, but there are still things that will need to be worked out with a mileage based user fee that will take time to evolve. So we're proposing to to use a dominant readings to the vehicle safety inspection process. Yeah. That's that's a cost effective way to do it, but there will then be the the questions around fairness on on the on the border of interstate travel and how do we account for other other things that aren't fully addressed by that kind of a system. And so before moving to, you know, the entire fleet being, subject to that kind of a a fee, I think we would need to to allow the mileage based units of feet to evolve. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. So what I'm hearing is it's policy reasons that make the electric and the traditional, you know, gasoline a a a different schedule. But but it what you're using is the mileage that you get on the annual inspections. That data is the same for both. Right? [Logan ]: That's right. Yeah. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. That's all. I just wanna make sure. [Rich Westman ]: Sure. Go ahead. [Speaker 0 ]: I have so many thoughts about manage based user fee implementation strategies, and I appreciate you coming out and saying that the idea that you're floating is, like, registration or it's a point of inspection. There are other ways to do it. Can we expect or request a presentation on what those options are? I mean, I've heard that we could even you know, we could use the EZ Pass potentially something Massachusetts is considering. Like, there's all sorts of ways that you could actually track mileage. [Patrick Murphy ]: There are different ways of tracking mileage. We we went through a pretty robust process in twenty twenty one with a number of stakeholders that looked at not just the technical feasibility of something, but also the fairness of Yes. And so And the and and the the the privacy concerns and the cost effectiveness of it. So technological solutions tend to be more expense expensive. And so and that that cost has longer. And take longer, and that then that has to be borne by someone. So then, you know, we did go through a process, and we'll we'll get into that in more detail because that's a substantial area for discussion. Yeah. Okay. It we will at some point [Rich Westman ]: a a a presentation of how the landing and and why and what the alternative was. Yeah. So [Speaker 2 ]: is the administration proposing this change built in buffer electric only, or you're saying, yes, that was to happen. This was the data. [Patrick Murphy ]: Well, we we we're proposing this change for mileage based user fee for electric vehicles. Okay. This is something that was, you know, the legislature gave us direction in Act sixty two to be able to pursue the implementation grant and to work towards statutory language that would enable this to [Speaker 7 ]: pay for. Can you see [Patrick Murphy ]: you have statutory language? So we're going to bring forward some statutory language, this session for for your consideration. So mileage based user fee for medium heavy duty vehicles is similar in how it might be implemented by DMP. This is just looking at electric medium heavy duty vehicles and probably probably overestimating in this chart about what potential revenue is given some of the developments we're likely to see over the next couple of years. So retail and delivery fees, we did look at an assumption of, I think, thirty cents per package and then estimated sort of looked at quite as my package package volume based on population. Other states that are implementing this sort of fee are Washington, Minnesota, and they all have something in the range or higher. There are there are lots of ways to to do something like this, extensions to to be put in place or, for example, businesses that maybe have revenue of less than a million dollars, I think, is one way that that states have approached it, looking at the cost of the packages and the sales. So there this is just trying to give you a sense of what might be possible through a retail delivery fee. [Rich Westman ]: Great. So [Speaker 7 ]: has that been piloted in other states? [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. So Colorado. Colorado, Minnesota, and Washington. [Speaker 7 ]: How do they track that? How do you track delivery packages? I don't know those. Self report. You don't [Patrick Murphy ]: I don't know the mechanics of it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just wondering. I I should also say that of of all these things that we're looking at, what well, the only thing the agency is proposing is that the mileage is gonna be, you know, for electric vehicles. We're just Yeah. Presenting this analysis for [Rich Westman ]: your consideration. The the mileage the delivery fee, a number of states have done it for fairness in the because anything that's grounded, their employees pay income taxes. You know, there's property taxes on the buildings. There's all of them. And then if you buy on it eliminates a whole bunch of those. So there's a fairness piece to existing land based businesses in a in an area. Right. So there's there's repercussions that are far outside of just transportation. That's right. [Patrick Murphy ]: So we also looked at transportation network, company fees. This is So can I just add Sure? [Rich Westman ]: So would the estimates that this bring in would be, like, eleven million at thirty cents? Yes. Yeah. Okay. [Patrick Murphy ]: So we looked at transportation network company fees, which is Uber and Lyft. I think you mentioned the other day, chair, that doesn't have wide application here in the state of Vermont. It's really relegated to the urban areas, Burlington and Winooski and Chittenden County. So did not see a a high potential yield in revenue. This was modeled three percent tax on transactions. So to do it as a percentage is probably better. I mean, it's more reflective of the actual impact upon the road network, the the length or the the distance of of the tread. And and then it also adjusts over time as the as the price of trips increase. [Speaker 0 ]: Yeah. [Patrick Murphy ]: Mileage space excuse me. The MPG based registration fees, You know, they have a high potential yield for revenue, but, certainly concerned around affordability and and then just the equity impacts of some folks who own gas vehicles. And then the last is tire fees, which, you know, has a very modest yield in in revenue. And and then we talked about some of the potential unintended consequences for us. And then lastly is looking at the not just Yes. Wireless based user paper, electric vehicles, but for all light duty vehicles. And if you compare these numbers to the fuel tax revenue, you can see where a a minus base unit fee sometime down the road might might help bridge the the gap that it's created by fuel efficiencies. So this is just looking at the overall revenue trends and happy to take any more questions. [Rich Westman ]: Well, there will be pieces of this that we'll wanna do that. Sure. If particularly, if we're gonna do if we have the amount of request mileage based user fee when it's appropriate with that. And then we wanna go into what the alternatives were that would treat specifically. So. Go ahead. [Speaker 0 ]: Thank you, mister chair. Throughout the creation of this report, did you consider how specifically targeting electric vehicles for increased cost would affect the overall adoption rate? [Patrick Murphy ]: So when you say targeting [Speaker 0 ]: So one of the benefits of being an EV driver is that I don't pay the gas tax. That's actually kinda nice. My fuel costs are down. So that is an incentive in the marketplace for me to purchase an electric vehicle or a hybrid. Did you factor in the potential for folks to take into their calculation of if they should switch to a different vehicle, this increased cost on the overall adoption rates. [Patrick Murphy ]: I'd say we considered it, and we didn't consider it a huge factor because what we're looking at and we could I think it's probably best to go through this as part of the mileage based user feedback discussion. But we did look at what is the potential impact on e v adoption, find it rather minimal. We're talking about ten to twenty dollars per month versus savings of, you know, over a thousand dollars a year in fuel and maintenance costs. Those maintenance costs could go up if you're driving an EV on a road that's not maintained. So there's definitely some some impacts to not raising revenue at all from a growing body of vehicles that will make up our fleet. [Speaker 0 ]: Did you consider fee baits in any of the I mean, I know you've got the, like, the super users. Like, the the the last the second the last one was essentially, like, a super user's fee. Right? Like, I guess. [Patrick Murphy ]: It's not a no. That's not related to the use of the vehicle. It's related to the a vehicle itself. What what is the mileage rating the EPA mileage rating of the vehicle itself? So as you drive however many miles, how much gas taxes is sort of being avoided from collection. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. And [Speaker 0 ]: I did see a luxury car tax on this. Was that something you discussed, or was it that we didn't ask it to be looked at, or it just wasn't something that rose to the top in any of the categories that you've listed? [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. It wasn't something that, we had looked at that we were asked to look at. I think there there may have been a study in twenty sixteen that had looked at part of the potential revenue cost there, but, well, if you know, we're on a pretty tight time frame, so we didn't consider lots of other potential revenue sources. [Rich Westman ]: Okay. Thank you. [Speaker 6 ]: This is this is very well done. [Speaker 0 ]: Really, you've put a lot of time and effort and really appreciate it because it gives us a basis of knowledge and understanding. And we're gonna have to figure this out as a state, and I think every state is trying to figure this out at a different point. And I'm very grateful that Vermont is being proactive because I get very nervous about what will happen if we're not. [Rich Westman ]: Thank you for Sure. [Speaker 6 ]: Taking the time with us. [Rich Westman ]: So we will be coming back to pieces of this. Now we are a little behind. So, [Speaker 2 ]: Jeremy, if [Rich Westman ]: you could take the chair. Okay. [Speaker 0 ]: So [Rich Westman ]: since you're on for the next two pieces, then we've got slightly over an hour. I can [Speaker 4 ]: make it work. I'll be [Rich Westman ]: on the do both of them? Yep. Or do you wanna start just a gap? [Logan ]: I can do them both. [Rich Westman ]: I I would like to give the committee maybe ten minutes or so to file names. Thanks. [Speaker 0 ]: Can we have them in? [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. I did. The the NVL, but it can't plug in, so let me pull it up. [44 seconds of silence] [Speaker 2 ]: It's [Speaker 4 ]: pretty good. It's email. I got it. [Speaker 0 ]: It's it's It's not in [Speaker 4 ]: the it's not in the calendar invite, but it's in the [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. I know. Talking about. [Logan ]: Yeah. Okay. Thanks. [94 seconds of silence] [Speaker 4 ]: Hey. Thank you, chair and committee members. My name is Jeremy Reed. I'm the chief engineer for the Agency of Transportation, and I'm here today to discuss the effects of inflation recently on the cost of our construction projects and sort of the buying power that we've seen reduced as a result. [Speaker 0 ]: What was that a photo of, though? [Rich Westman ]: I know. It's Let me [Speaker 6 ]: It looks interesting. Almost ominous. [Speaker 4 ]: So that's a that's a inner state. [Speaker 2 ]: Okay. I'm assuming. I I almost don't know. Bold [Rich Westman ]: inner state. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. Actually, you know what? [Logan ]: That might be that might be [Speaker 4 ]: the drawbridge. The first one. [Speaker 7 ]: I think you're Yeah. [Speaker 4 ]: I think that might be what [Logan ]: it is. I think it happens. Square I have [Speaker 2 ]: a lot of drawbridge for two. In here for [Speaker 7 ]: a circle eater. You got it. [Patrick Murphy ]: So, yeah, [Rich Westman ]: I think I think that's Well, whose district was that. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. Okay. Oh. [Patrick Murphy ]: And her message. So Not now. It's gonna be spread. [Speaker 4 ]: There there's two takeaways, that I'd like to present today. One is the actual inflation increases from the the loss of buying power, but also, the volatility in bid prices that we've seen. And, obviously, that impairs our ability to have accurate estimates and, you know, years out having predictable budgets for projects and that and the ability to deliver those projects on time. So this is a graph from Federal Highway, and it starts at twenty sixteen. And you can see the very significant increase around twenty twenty, which was the fourth quarter of twenty twenty. Obviously, there was a dip from the pandemic. But from the fourth quarter of twenty twenty to today, there's been a a fifty four percent increase in that three year period in construction costs. Oh, okay. And that and that's nationalized. This is the construction inputs from ARPA, which is the American Board, Transportation Builders Association. And if you look at the average price increases from twenty twelve to twenty twenty Mhmm. Asphalt actually decreased two point three percent, iron and steel decreased one percent, and concrete products increased three point four percent. But if you look from twenty one to twenty two, we saw a forty eight percent increase in asphalt, a forty two point four percent increase in iron and steel, and ten point four percent increase in concrete products. Those three materials are very heavily used in our projects and probably represent some of the the greatest costs for our projects. You look at total combined inputs, for highway and street construction. What what we see is there is a seven point four percent increase from December of fourteen to July of twenty twenty And then from July of twenty twenty to July of twenty twenty two, a forty percent increase. So so, again, a very, very significant increase in a short period of time coming out of the pandemic. So this is Vermont specific data that that we were able to pull. And I just selected a handful of items that we commonly use on our projects that would reflect a program wide impact. So common excavation from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty three increased thirty six percent, And that's think anything digging dirt. That's common excavation for for simplicity's sake. But what we saw was a hundred and nineteen percent increase in standard deviation. And for for those who may not know, standard deviation is sort of the measure of volatility and and how close to the average each individual bid price is. So, essentially, we saw a doubling of the volatility for that item. Again, traffic signs very frequently used. We saw a sixty six percent increase in pricing from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty three, but a four hundred percent increase in standard deviation. So, again, just just incredible volatility that really impairs our ability to to accurately predict, bucket cost. [Speaker 2 ]: What why do you think there's such volatility? [Speaker 4 ]: So I think I think there's a number of factors, certainly labor supply coming out of the pandemic, floodlight. [Speaker 2 ]: Because some people had worked or some [Speaker 4 ]: did. Correct. And, you know, depending on the type of project, they may already had a crew ready to mobilize there. And if it was a smaller project, maybe they were trying to search for folks and and knew that it would require, you know, some recruitment effort and and things like that. I I think we also saw within the material supply chains a lot of volatility, and how contractors account for that is is probably reflected in in sort of a risk aversion to their bids. And sometimes they may not. You know, it might have they might have had to be burned a couple times before they actually started accounting for, which taking on a program wide level would be solved just, I think. [Rich Westman ]: So if is there any breakdown between the large companies, the pipes and the the stuff that's more local? [Speaker 4 ]: We didn't get into that level of granularity. I think the challenge with something like that would be to to look at, you know, what is what is a large company? You know, how do you define that? [Rich Westman ]: Well, if I got I just Sure. Across all of Northern New England, and they I don't hear the same urgency about getting people as I do. Stuff that is more regional with local. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. I don't I don't know if that's true or not. I haven't certainly default to EDC or or those representatives. Pave, obviously, could speak to that. Individually, I have heard labor supply issues are are an issue across the board. Now to your point, I think the bigger the company, the more flexibility they have at any given time. So a small, you know, family owned bridge contractor probably has their crew, and they can't pull somebody from New Hampshire if things go down. But but I think labor supply is an issue regardless. [Rich Westman ]: My dean. [Speaker 6 ]: Two, I think, quick questions. I understand corrections used to make the signs. Did [Speaker 4 ]: Not for our Not [Speaker 6 ]: for you? [Speaker 4 ]: Not for our [Speaker 6 ]: Oh, okay. [Speaker 4 ]: No. So that that was part of kind of, like, a state maintenance activity [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. Where [Speaker 4 ]: to use state funds exclusively for our capital projects. Those are always a third party vendor. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. And then how many did you track how many bidders you're getting per per project if that has changed? [Speaker 4 ]: I don't know that I have that number. I think I think we could pull that number pretty easily. [Speaker 6 ]: Is there a feeling that you're getting viewers? Or [Speaker 4 ]: Certainly, that is true. Okay. Now I think there's two components to that. Coming out of the pandemic and when IIJ was first implemented, we saw a pretty significant increase in work run out, and we did not necessarily account for those inflationary pressure pressures immediately because it did there was a lag where we saw them. So certainly in in twenty one, twenty two, and probably into twenty three, just because we were putting out so much work. I think, generally speaking, we we did see a reduction in bidders. But there could be multiple reasons for that, right, as far as if we put too much work out in one specific region and and stuff like that. So I don't know how much I can attribute that to a specific cost. Okay. [Speaker 0 ]: Thank you, mister chair. For most of these cost increases, it's private bids that are driving it. Do you have an a cost of how do we relate as a state workforce doing the work? So compared to like, how are our costs going up compared to the bid costs of private? [Speaker 4 ]: So the the it's difficult to compare that, right, because the federal funds were not allowed to perform the work. And so that has to be, you know, a private private entity. I think, historically, we've done some rough calculations, just to sort of compare some of our costs, but I'm I'm not really prepared to testify to those today. And and there's, quite frankly, a a lot of assumptions that go into it because you need a a fairly significant pool of apples to apples comparisons. And because, you know, the state of Vermont does not build bridges, that there's not really that that history of this is what would actually cost [Logan ]: us. Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: We we have done some of that on smaller culvert, but but, again, that's fairly small sample size. So I'd hate to hate to speculate at what a a capital project would cost us. [Speaker 6 ]: Thank you. [Speaker 7 ]: That's Go ahead. That's the lack of well, let me let me put it this way. Do you have a robust pot of bidders on these projects, or is it has it narrowed itself down over the years? I know in the past, they used to be fairly fairly good people that would [Speaker 4 ]: So it it it really depends on the the size of the project and the scope of the project. So there are certain areas in which we have essentially one contractor. You know, we we basically have one or two signed contractors, for example. Yeah. If you look back over four or five years, we've actually increased the number of paving contractors that bid on our projects consistently. Our bridge contractors have probably stayed relatively consistent. Some have come and gone, but but that pool has stayed relatively consistent. [Rich Westman ]: So most of these and and I know there's a lag in in permission Sure. Everything. Most of this is through twenty three. Yep. And and the rest of the construction world, their twenty four saw something flattening out Yes. Into that. But in the rest of construction, well, you know, rolling back of any of the materials. Correct. When do you think we'll have an information so we better understand whether this was and and, yeah, are we back to more normal inflation versus like it was before that? And Sure. And and so quick. As I try to, in my mind, match up our revenue issues and and what this is. I'm I'm just trying to sort through all of that in in the timelines that we've got and figure out where in the estimates that we just got on revenues, how they all fit together and whether or not we incorporated in this big bullet into the the revenue leads that were in there. [Speaker 4 ]: So I've got a slide at the end that looks at the last six months on a much left annual level. Yeah. But but you're absolutely right. [Rich Westman ]: So let let let's get to the end, but I would like to get to that in as we add in that revenue need was you know, because you were doing that study kind of and and how did we incorporate all of that into what the need is? [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. I I mean, I think as we all intuitively know, a reduction in inflation does not equate for a reduction in price. And just the nature of it, once they ratchet to a certain level, the rate of growth may decline, but the the price will not, if if that makes sense. And I think the the last line I have says we've adjusted our estimating practice to account for it, but but we don't anticipate a decrease. [Rich Westman ]: I'm right now doing the building, the duplex. Mhmm. And the lumber going in is slightly less than it was in the twenty two and twenty three. Mhmm. So is it just you know, in the overall, I think it's probably just flattened down. But, you know Yeah. I'm just trying to measure [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. We we can we can dig into the numbers a little bit more, but I I think, at best, we may have flattened out, but we're not gonna see a decrease in construction costs. And and, again, the the number of variables that go into that, you know, you so your labor costs are not going down. Maybe some material costs are Yep. [Rich Westman ]: It it it's it will be time for us to think about we set a new base. Right. And what's the normal inflation that we might find after we've set a new pay? [Patrick Murphy ]: Correct. [Speaker 4 ]: Correct. K. Again, just different line striping, forty three percent increase from twenty eight to twenty twenty three. And this is sort of interesting. We actually saw a decrease in standard deviation. I honestly don't have a good explanation for that, but it it was was something that we did notice. What's the yellow line? The yellow line. So Yeah. Different types. So you've got a white line, which is your bottom line on the edge of the road. You've got a yellow line. [Patrick Murphy ]: I don't know. Yellow is for the yellow. [Speaker 4 ]: Correct. Right. So the blue man. Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. It's like the red is the yellow. [Patrick Murphy ]: Yeah. It's the yellow. They're a little white. [Speaker 6 ]: That might be your standard deviation because it's [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. It seems like it would be more. Actually, yeah, I I'm I actually don't know. I have to have to double check that. That that might be the the four inch yellow non durable because that's the only thing not listed in the table. Mhmm. Okay. So the the the yellow and the gray are not durable markings, so they're just waterborne paints. And then the blue and the orange are the durable epoxy. [Speaker 6 ]: Is that like a plastic kind [Speaker 4 ]: of? Correct. Okay. [Speaker 2 ]: So the nondurable ones are just almost considered temporarily like that. [Speaker 4 ]: It's something we we're Yeah. They have a a ten, twelve month lifespan, whereas the durables, we think in in [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. [Speaker 4 ]: And in your case, we get three to five years out [Logan ]: of them. Can you do [Speaker 2 ]: the durable sorry. That's that's. Can you do the durable painting on where you're doing them central rough rough rough strip? Yep. You can still do that. Doesn't break that flat. [Speaker 4 ]: No. Because it's I mean, there's different types, but, yeah, it goes down hot. So it's it's it's in liquid form, and it's it's. So this is this is what I was alluding to. So I did look at July twenty twenty four, third of July sorry. January twenty twenty five. In this time frame, we awarded twenty three separate contracts, and we estimated those those total contract values to be ninety eight million dollars. And in aggregate, they they came in at a hundred and seven million dollars. And, you know, just to kinda describe the the graph here, the dash line would be kinda what our estimate was. And projects that are further on the right are the are the bigger projects, and projects closer to the the act two axis are the, smaller projects. [Speaker 2 ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: So we're we're getting that over. They're estimating, but, again, I don't believe the costs are going down. [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. You should. You had you had a bunch right on the line, but it's likely above. Yep. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. They're they're we're still predominantly underestimating [Logan ]: the the projects, but [Speaker 4 ]: we're we're we're definitely much more consistent, and and we're trying not to overreact as well. No. [Rich Westman ]: I would tell you during COVID, it was hard. [Logan ]: Yeah. You know? It very much was. [Rich Westman ]: When room fifteen between Cambridge and Johnson gets put off a a couple of times, people were yelling. [Logan ]: Yep. And and this is a effort. [Speaker 4 ]: So spoken to both committees last year. We we've, hired a chief estimator who's gonna look at some of the, consumer price index and, more importantly, the producer price index and and give us a little bit of a a more analytical forward looking approach. Historically, we've always been looking at bid histories and then trying to account for it, but we are definitely getting more refined. The other thing we will notice is when we have, price indexing for asphalt, so the paving industry, for example, we're much more accurate with those bids just because the they have to carry less risk because we have price indexing for asphalt and fuel on on the big paving projects. [Rich Westman ]: So are are in this thing, are these paving projects? Are these bridge projects? Are these everything? [Speaker 4 ]: This is everything. So this is this is the total of the twenty three projects we awarded from July twenty four to to January twenty five. [Rich Westman ]: And do you have, like, [Patrick Murphy ]: the [Rich Westman ]: it yeah. A chart like this to compare the year or two before. I I I can't. So I so if somebody asked, I could show the difference in volatility. [Logan ]: Yeah. I I think [Speaker 4 ]: we can produce that for you too. I don't I don't have it, though. [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. That yeah. They didn't expect you to, but, you know, but Yeah. Get you with that comparison, which would highlight the volatility to us. Yep. I know it because of fifty. I think I'm back. Go ahead. [Speaker 0 ]: And you're kinda getting at the point that I was hoping to raise, which is, are you noticing anything geographically? Is there one or more parts of the state that are costing more on average when you have project bids? Is there a type of project that is is seemingly just really large? And my concern post some of the floods was that we were seeing at least on the municipal level, we were seeing way insane bids on, like, dredging out, you know, crazy, crazy stuff on a local level. And it seemed like we were just getting those price hikes because people said, oh, he was gonna pay for everything. [Speaker 4 ]: Mhmm. [Speaker 0 ]: So I guess my question is, do you have any geographical distribution and post natural disaster? Is that factoring, and are people gouging us because they think that there's money falling from the feds? [Speaker 7 ]: So [Speaker 4 ]: there's always geographic differences, and in our estimating, we take that into account. I I don't know that either the pandemic or the flooding has has made that worse. Oh, okay. I don't know [Logan ]: that it hasn't, but I [Speaker 4 ]: don't know that it has. I would offer that the majority of our big flood work hasn't been been left yet. Oh. So from a price gouging perspective, certainly in the immediate aftermath and and the immediate months following, there was a lot of contractors who had a lot of work. But I don't know that because that wasn't a long duration project that that actually impacted our capital projects that would be, you know, built the following year for instance. [Rich Westman ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: I think when the white book comes out, you'll be able to draw your own conclusions about the total scope of the program. And, you know, quite quite frankly, I'm not that concerned about there being too much work out there and not being able to get competitive bids. [Speaker 0 ]: Okay. That's really the practical issue. Thank you. [Rich Westman ]: It's hard to get too much work out there when you don't have the money [Speaker 2 ]: Yes. [Rich Westman ]: Which is really the position we're in. Any more questions? As we go through this, we'll probably Sorry. Have further questions, but this is just a big deal. And you think about buying hours drop off? [Speaker 4 ]: Right. These are rough numbers, obviously. But if we look at IIJA, I believe from our formula funds, we had a roughly twenty three percent increase in funding from the federal higher administration. [Rich Westman ]: But it's tough. But but we still have to manage them. [Patrick Murphy ]: Correct. [Speaker 4 ]: Yes. What I would also offer, which is is the truly bad news is and it's tough to put a specific number to it just because, again, the sample size is small, But I think we could comfortably say that we have seen price increases somewhere in the forty to forty five percent range. So in in totality, we've seen probably a reduction of twenty to twenty five percent in our buying power since the IJA has passed. [Rich Westman ]: Go ahead, Keith. [Speaker 2 ]: Has the agency's position changed since last year? Maybe this isn't a question for your journey, but but the last year when we were talking to I think it's called CFO or CFO. He said this was not a problem. He said the agency didn't see it as a concern. They didn't need to do anything about it, that there was enough money to address it and no cause for a while. Was that still the position of the agencies? So I think [Speaker 4 ]: I think not knowing exactly what testimony you're referring to, I think Bradley's position at the time was we've got enough bank match to match federal funds and not get out of the the budget, but we can have that discussion once once the budget is unveiled. I think, you know, the message that I would would present today, and I think Patrick showed that, is is long term, both federal and state funds become a constraint. [Speaker 2 ]: Right. And so it's just like, when do we actually do something about it? We haven't decided yet. [Speaker 4 ]: Correct. [Rich Westman ]: After all, I think the most important issue that this committee, the agency, and the legislature as a whole is and the status quo. So that's the deal with is this gap that's growing between because, fundamentally, if we don't maintain the infrastructure, it will just be more expensive in the future. [Speaker 4 ]: And and we're working on you know, I think I think there is a lot of variability in trying to predict needs out ten years. It's it's you know, the the the precision there drops significantly. We do have some deterioration models for our primary assets, and we are looking at what what does the three to three to five year outlook look like? You know, what can we expect for rural condition conditions? We don't have that ready yet, but certainly at some point in time in this session, we we would expect to have some of that information. [Rich Westman ]: Yeah. That would be helpful. And when you do have that, we'd like to be able to see that because as someone that owns a few buildings Mhmm. When the roof leaks, that's a big deal. When you get a crack in a road and it's destroying base, that's a big deal. [Speaker 4 ]: Exactly. And it's it's you know, I'm sure you've you've all heard, you know, Kevin Marchey, who is our asset management manager and and Chad Allen before him discussing right treatment at the right time. And that's where, you know, preservation, rehabilitation, and then reconstruction all tie together. Mhmm. Then yeah. Absolutely. If you if you don't paint your house sooner or later, you're replacing soffits and fills and all that nasty. [Rich Westman ]: Well, I'm most interested in the roof when Anthony extends out. His his roof. [Speaker 2 ]: Oh, alright. Unfortunately. Yeah. [Speaker 6 ]: Looks like I get needed. [Rich Westman ]: Let's look through this. We'll wanna come back and and the asset management pieces. But as you have deterioration models, I think that would be interesting for the community. Absolutely. So your next piece? [Patrick Murphy ]: So yes. V transparency? [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. V transparency. So a lot of you may or [Patrick Murphy ]: may not know this. I'm assuming you'd be [Rich Westman ]: able to just jump right in for it. I'd like to have the committee at least fifteen minutes if we could. [Speaker 0 ]: Are we on at eleven thirty, or [Speaker 6 ]: are we on at eleven? We're at eleven thirty. [Speaker 4 ]: Okay. I I will I will be done in in five, ten minutes if if that's the desire or I can take it. [Rich Westman ]: Eleven thirty. [Speaker 0 ]: And you're you're their last person. [Rich Westman ]: This is [Speaker 0 ]: our last thing. Oh, so we've got, like oh, great. [Logan ]: Yep. And I don't have [Speaker 4 ]: a formal presentation for retransparency. My thought is I'd just bring up the site, show you what functionality is there, and, certainly, I'll I'll let you folks decide where we wanna spend the time. So vTransparency is our public facing information portal. And just to run down some of the information that may be be helpful for for you or your constituents, I'll I'll start, you know, road conditions, certainly doing, yeah, the Plowfinder. Right? So, certainly, during the flooding, the New England five one one is is heavily used just to understand what what roads are open and which ones are closed. The other one that's probably pretty pretty important for you folks is the projects. So you can click on on current projects. And what I find to be the most useful is just to click on this map, and you can go to your your district. And, you know, I'll just just pick on senator White for a second. [Speaker 0 ]: Look at all those green dots. [Speaker 4 ]: And and you can filter this over here with the different layers, either planned projects or construction projects. What I would say is just because of the volume information, this is basically limited to projects that are anticipated to be built in the next three years. So if you're looking for, you know, something that's eight years out, it it would not be here. But but, ultimately, you know, we can come down here, and I can just click on a project. This is happens to be a bridge maintenance project. I think this is probably the VA cutoff. Now this is a intersection project in Hartford. You can click on on the the fact sheet, and you can get everything you need to know about that project, including the project manager, general costs, schedule, things like that. So if if you're looking for what may or may not be coming in your district, this is a very easy visual way way to do that. [Speaker 0 ]: It's I just have to say thank you so much for maintaining this. The amount of people who will call me and be like, I saw a truck over at this spot doing some work here. What is it? And then I go here and I go, here's the link. [Speaker 2 ]: Yep. So that's the projects and upcoming projects. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. So anything within a three year period. So everything active and then anything planned [Logan ]: to be constructed within within three years. [Speaker 4 ]: Then some of some of the other sort of more nuanced information, and this goes to our deterioration models. So pavement condition, we can pull this up. And there's there's two screens here. One is what what we view based on our last, inspection, the condition of of that specific road. And so, again, you can you can click on it, and the different colors mean different things. I'll I'll just I'll just pick this for because this is gonna be poor. And so this is one thirty three. You can see basically what the history of that. [Rich Westman ]: Okay. We're glitching here on that. [Speaker 0 ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: So you can see we came through there. Looks like two thousand ten, did a project. Actually, it's probably two thousand nine. We did the project. So when we came in in two thousand ten and and reigned it, it jumped up, and then this is the general deterioration since that point. [Speaker 6 ]: Is that what you expected in terms of the span of the [Speaker 4 ]: I don't know. I wanna say about this specific. I'm just sort of randomly picking stuff. I will say we just completed a project that updated all of our deterioration models. We used some more current data. There's there's some variability in it, so we look at it program wide. But we do look at the the mechanism of distressing and and try to assign a deterioration model based on that. The other piece, which is our program wide performance measures, [Patrick Murphy ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: And so, this is, again, the pro program wide condition. We've got two measures that we've historically looked at. One is the travel weighted average, which is essentially a weighted average of the condition for the the user experience. So if if a a stretch of highway has forty thousand cars a day, it is weighted more than, you know, a a a something up in Essex County that has four hundred cars a day, for instance. And so this is probably a good kind of representation of what the user experience is throughout Vermont. And then our second performance measure is the number of very poor. So we don't wanna just focus on what sort of the mass population is seeing. We also wanna maintain a minimum level of of, satisfaction as well. And so we, for decades, have had a, a very poor maximum of twenty five percent. And and as you can see, we generally don't even approach that. And, hopefully, if if we even get close to twenty, people become very displeased. So, again and we also recognize, and the secretary's points us out at every opportunity. Your experience is a hundred percent of your satisfaction. Right? So if you happen to live on a very poor Yeah. You know, it's not lost on us. Like, your experience is not good even if the network condition as a whole is is relatively good. [Speaker 0 ]: Do and you don't look at this for municipal roads at all. These are only state roads. [Speaker 4 ]: Poor paving. That's correct. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: Now I do have [Speaker 0 ]: Because oftentimes, you know, I hear, oh, my road's terrible, and then I go, that's your local road. [Speaker 4 ]: Correct. Correct. Now we do have for bridges, we do have we inspect the town long structure, so that's anything over twenty feet. And when we get into those historic conditions, we we can can look at that. So these are specific inspection reports for for a specific structure. Again, it's probably pretty wonky and detailed for for the majority of people, but they do exist. And I just wanna wanna highlight that. And and that's again, it is a little bit wonky for for most people and and detailed, but but we do have it. And there's there's pictures of of the current condition and and things like that. [Speaker 6 ]: That's great. And just a quick one, how how many people use it? And is is the usage increasing? [Speaker 4 ]: That, I don't know. We certainly try to point everybody to this as as sort of the first place to go. And then if they can't find what they're looking for to come come see us, I I don't know what the what the usage actually is. The the last two pieces I'll I'll just touch on is we do have some some data available for, like, crash data and things like that. And then, obviously, transportation resiliency tools, that has been a, obvious point of interest recently with the button. So that's that's b, transparency in a high level. I skipped over just because it's not highways, but I do, you know, wanna point out we do have rail conditions as well. I don't know how much your constituents would be consistent in that. [Speaker 0 ]: Do you get the [Speaker 2 ]: Do Do you have data on which roads have the central rumble strip? [Speaker 4 ]: We'd have to check with our asset management bureau. We do. I don't know how compiled it is. We have things internally called root logs, and within those, it would tell you what projects have humble scripts. It's it's basically our practice now to to install them. So it's just a matter of, you know [Speaker 2 ]: I just wonder if there was any data because we had another yes. There's something going over the century. Yeah. We have seem to have one every year a couple of years. And I'm wondering if there was data showing that how that central rollover strip prevents those. [Speaker 4 ]: I don't know if we have data that looks at sort of annual or three year rolling average that shows sort of over the line. [Logan ]: It's kinda like where they happen to the Yeah. [Speaker 2 ]: Places where those rumbles are. I'm assuming it helps because that's [Logan ]: It it absolutely helps. [Speaker 4 ]: I mean, both nationally and statewide, we've seen it helps. [Speaker 2 ]: Yeah. [Speaker 4 ]: And and that's why we've basically universally adopted it when we come through with the project. But, I mean, I think the fatality of reference, there are rumble strips there. Oh, there are ones. Believe. [Rich Westman ]: How many how have the complaints about rumble strips dropped off? [Speaker 4 ]: So we did change the design, I wanna say, two or three years ago Mhmm. Which I think has helped. It's it it still serves the purpose, but it isn't quite as [Rich Westman ]: Noisy. [Speaker 4 ]: Noisy to to the, you know, public. We do still go out and try to avoid, you know, some locations. [Speaker 2 ]: So [Logan ]: when I say [Speaker 4 ]: a hundred percent adoption, there are still gaps in that. [Speaker 2 ]: And that's is that just as much of an issue for a central than the side rumble strips? I would assume that the trucks are more likely the side rumble strip than the center one. [Speaker 4 ]: So on the majority of the state system, we don't have side rumble strips. It is just center line rumble strips, and and that is the majority of our our complaints. [Speaker 2 ]: And it's just because sure. [Logan ]: Well and, I mean, even past behavior vehicles, if you [Speaker 4 ]: look on the inside of a corner, you know, the natural tendency is to sort of be on the the yellow line. [Speaker 2 ]: Yeah. [Logan ]: And [Rich Westman ]: just If you're near near any residential neighborhood, you're liable to get some complaint. [Speaker 2 ]: Right. It looked like a hundred two when the new project there that there's parts where you didn't put the wrong most for residents because there's a resident. Correct. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. We were we were with I I don't know that it's I'd have to get back to you the exact criteria, but we do try to not be too intrusive in residential areas, but we do recognize the safety value that that it presents. [Rich Westman ]: In the early days, one of the earliest places was on Route one zero four. Yep. And they did Rumpelstrip through Fairfax into Cambridge, and they paved over it. Right. Yep. Because there was a a. I think it's got better. [Logan ]: I I think so. [Speaker 4 ]: And, again, I think the design change has has certainly aided that. So what did you do differently in the design? So I'd have to I I don't know off my head, but it's it's what is more of called a sinusoidal as opposed to what our original one was. So I don't know the exact details, but I do know it did change. [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. Yeah. Was there [Rich Westman ]: We won't wanna come back operation stuff with some details because it's a big deal for this. You know? Not only are our revenues taking a hit, but, you know, with that, that that's a huge blow. Absolutely. And if we're going to see it by going to the amount of miles that we can do and the number of bridges that we can do, I think we can't not pay attention. [Speaker 4 ]: Absolutely true. I I would just offer, you know, the the glimmer of good news out of the last fourteen years, I'll say, is, as devastating as the floods were because we were able to use federal high rate funds. Best guess is we probably replaced roughly a hundred bridges between Hurricane Irene, the twenty three flooding, and the twenty four flooding, and and we were able to do that without tapping into Portland's fault. So the culverts. Yeah. If if if they were locked out. So, you know, our bridge condition is actually very good. And as I talked to my counterparts in other states, nationally, we are doing very well on on bridge condition. Yeah. The the and large culverts are And [Rich Westman ]: if And if I go back But that was but since then, we've had a slide in revenues. In the last fourteen or fifteen years, there's been a slide in the news, and we haven't figured out how to address it. But [Speaker 4 ]: I'm I'm done. I believe. [Speaker 0 ]: Is there a place for us to see class one, class two, class three road differentiations? [Patrick Murphy ]: I think that might be Yeah. [Speaker 0 ]: I think I I think that maybe it does exist somewhere. I I feel like I've seen something, but You've done maps. Oh, yeah. The town? Yeah. [Rich Westman ]: I think [Logan ]: you're looking for [Speaker 6 ]: You're talking about the classification? Yeah. [Speaker 0 ]: I just wanted to find the location. [Speaker 4 ]: Well, those are the route logs I was discussing. Town highway maps for all Vermont towns. [Speaker 2 ]: I just wanna know you wanna look at a road and see where the town's classified. Yeah. [Patrick Murphy ]: Oh. [Speaker 0 ]: You do have a great flood resiliency map, though. So say that in the risk assessment, it's always fun to go and see if you're high risk. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. I agree, though. I'm assuming graphically we have that somewhere. [Rich Westman ]: Pop my head. I don't know where. [Speaker 4 ]: I mean, well, honestly, we just look with what is called the orange list, but that sounds awesome. [Speaker 6 ]: There's another book. There's the there's a lot of college. [Logan ]: Yeah. Work in this. Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 6 ]: Can't be color blind. Yeah. [Speaker 4 ]: But, yeah, I think think that is one of the the bigger questions that even we have internally is is that a class one or is that still the state highway and knowing exactly where that boundary is. Yeah. [Speaker 6 ]: They're on the regional commission. In in my area, they're on on the regional commission Yeah. Website. They they keep it for all the towns. I don't know. That's what they [Speaker 2 ]: ask you or why do you want because [Speaker 6 ]: you need it. [Speaker 0 ]: Because people do they say, oh, my road is a dot dot dot. I'm like, okay. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know how to even further deny that. Yeah. [Speaker 2 ]: That's good. [Speaker 4 ]: And there's other goofy things that go back, you know, decades where you've got literally class two roads that are federal aid roads. Right? So great books, an example. But no idea why that's a federal aid road, but it is. [Speaker 2 ]: Yeah. A great book in place. K. Yeah. [Speaker 0 ]: Well, we got We got on speed. [Rich Westman ]: A little earlier than I'd hoped, so we'll get a good time. And thank you very much. Thank you. [Speaker 6 ]: Thanks. It's a Is there [Speaker 0 ]: a place to see speed limits on this? I [Speaker 6 ]: can That's good. I know you're trying to get [Rich Westman ]: show. But [Speaker 4 ]: It'll be in the mood logs, I believe. Believe that has a speed limit on Google Ads. [Speaker 6 ]: Still still live.

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SmartTranscript of Senate Transportation -2025-01-17 - 9:00AM

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