SmartTranscript of Senate Judiciary - 2025-01-31 - 1:00PM

[Chair Nader Hashim]: We are here. This is the senate committee on IT and institutions. It's Friday, January thirty first. We are here to learn more about the Chittenden Regional Correctional Facility and get an update. I think I think you know us all. Yeah. You have a [Speaker 1 ]: brief introduction. That's okay, chair? [Chair Nader Hashim]: No. I of us? [Speaker 1 ]: I actually don't I don't know everyone yet. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Okay. Let's do it. Yes. Great. Alright. [Speaker 1 ]: Senator Singles. Receipts on there. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: As well. Senator Sam, regardless from all these counties. Senator Joe Maynard from one second. [Chair Nader Hashim]: And senator Wendy Harrison from Lindo. Senator, if you're looking for your [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Yes. One second. [Speaker 1 ]: And I'm I think they don't have the policy to go out there at the Department of Corrections. So our main legislative contact, I'm sorry if you'd be here last week, but excited to note that out. CRCF and kinda give a broad overview of the project. I'm also joined by my colleague here from the Department of Corrections, Katia. She's our director of women's services and also the commissioner of women's general services. Okay. Sure. [Witness Gail Zaz]: And could you my name is Gail Zaz. I work with the network against domestic and sexual violence. Oh, great. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Thank you. Thank you for being here. Let's see here. [Speaker 1 ]: So I think, you know, very quickly, just wanted to kinda talk about the correctional center project we have here to replace CRCF. Certainly an object of much conversation in the state. So just kinda wanted to give you a very quick background on this project, which has been going on for a number of years. The Department of Corrections is really the why behind the project. And we work really closely with our partners at BGS, which is very much the the what and the how. So kind of the the structure itself, the zoning, which we can get into later. But really kind of wanna talk about the philosophy of of why we're looking to replace this building. So I'm not sure how many folks have actually been to CRCF. I know, senator Harrison, you have been. And it's a very dated structure, about half a century old now. It's outdated in terms of its replacement timeline. It's got about, I think, twelve million or so in terms of deferred maintenance, and it costs about three million dollars a year just to keep the lights on, which is by far our most expensive correctional facility to keep running. When you look at it, it was originally built in the early nineteen seventies as a detention center for men. It later housed both men and women. So it was never meant for long term habitation. So it's much more of a jail setting, free sentence than a kind of traditional correctional facility thinking about prisons as, you know, fit for long term habitation. You know, it also had that, you know, fencing, the rows of fencing, barbed wire, razor wire, kind of hard surfaces. You've spent time in the building. You've seen what it looks like on the inside. It looks like a jail from the early nineteen seventies. And that and that's kind of the, you know, the philosophy that it was built with. At that time, we weren't really thinking about the healing and rehabilitation of incarcerated folks. It was really meant to to house people, warehouse people. So, you know, very little natural light, bars on the windows, does not really afford us the opportunities we'd like to work with the women who are incarcerated there. So this is what one of the larger cells in the structure looks like. So we can see the poor quality of light. You know, there's been some attempts, obviously, to try and, you know, put paint on the walls and brighten it up. You'll be able to go see some beautiful murals that have been painted over the cinder blocks, but, you know, paint is, really only a temporary measure here. It has hard furnishings, you know, blind corners, the bunks themselves. There you've noticed no ladders, no ligature points, but very difficult for someone who's experiencing health issues to get to those top bunks, which is something we hear a lot, and, you know, kind of cold surfaces as well. So this looks very different from what we're envisioning for kind of the next chapter of correctional facilities in Vermont, structures that I think really reflect our values as a state and how the values have evolved since the early nineteen seventies. There are also major issues, you know, mechanical issues in the building in terms of, you know, leaks, things that our staff have to deal with. So I think, you know, we talk a lot about the conditions for the women who live in this building, but it's important to note that, you know, we also have a number of staff. DOC is the the biggest, department by staff in the state. We have hundreds of correctional officers in six facilities across Vermont, and, we have a number of folks here who have to contend with some of those difficult conditions. And so when we have a a building issue that BGS needs to work on, we have to move staff around the building, which is very difficult when you have such a limited footprint. So office space here, this is the administrative part of the building. When that, leak happened, we had to move all the folks out of that part of the building and have housed them elsewhere in makeshift, offices. So it's just very disruptive to the structure of the building and its operations. So this to kinda change base, this is sort of what we're looking at, a completely different template, completely different look of design. And this really reflects, you know, again, updated research, in a really different palette. We're looking at higher ceilings, natural light, as, you know, the BGS folks have kind of laid out here, sensory boundaries, identity anchors, nested layers, much more modern structure. So these are just some pictures of kind of more modern correctional facilities across the country. You can see again some of those natural landscapes that have been fitted into the structure, places like light wells, high ceilings. A lot of these spaces are designed to also give folks more agency so they can kinda choose where they wanna go throughout the structure. How many [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: I wouldn't have what's the right term? Because I wanna get the right term. And it's not [Chair Nader Hashim]: Incarcerated individuals. And then the state [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: of my city currently have at at the facility. [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. Right now, it's about a hundred and twenty to a hundred and thirty on any given day. CRCF has a hundred and seventy seven beds. So we're not nearing capacity, but we have seen an uptick in the number of women who are housed at CRCF recently. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Right. [Speaker 1 ]: We're also looking at facilities outside the United States to kinda give us that, you know, more modern template for design. So this is a prison here in Norway, Haltung Prison, which is actually a maximum security facility. You can see on the right, this is an an image down a hallway with that natural landscape in the background, lots of natural light, and on the left, the the dining hall area. And you can see there's kind of a a difference in seating. So if some folks wanna choose, you know, seating that's just maybe with one other chair, they're able to do that. There are then larger tables if people want more of a group. So we're trying to give incarcerated individuals the opportunity to make choices for themselves, which, you know, right now, is somewhat limited given the architecture of the building. Scandinavian facilities also have built into them, dedicated programming space. So here we see a kitchen and a pottery studio. We're still very much in the draft phase of, the project, so we haven't made any explicit decisions on, you know, what kind of spaces might be available. But, certainly, this gives you kind of a sense of what these facilities look like and how they feel. These are just some floor plans. But, again, you can see it on the left, facility in Reykjavik, Iceland. Again, lots of natural space, courtyards. And on the right is a, psychiatric center in Copenhagen. Again, lot of built into the natural landscape, lots of light, not those kind of long institutional corridors that you might see at CRCF today. And here's some pictures from that, psychiatric center in Copenhagen. So, again, you know, a lot of natural materials, softer materials. Another facility that we're looking very closely at is the Southern Maine women's rancher facility that I know the senator has been here, the chair has been to. We invite anyone who'd like to go. We usually do an annual trip up to Windermaine to see this facility. About a hundred bed facility, just about fifteen minutes outside of Portland. And many folks, when they walk by it, don't even know that it's a correctional facility. So the doors are unlocked when they can come and go during the day for jobs, appointments, to see family. And it's really designed as kind of a step down setting from more secure correctional environment, which is just up the hill at their state prison complex. [Wanda Manoli]: You say different [Speaker 1 ]: But, you know, when you go inside of that space, I think for me, one of the most you know, amazing things is just the the difference in how we can you know, when they're there, you can see it when they're smiling, they're joking, they're talking to the correctional officers. It's relatively quiet. The staff will tell you that when they moved into this more modern facility about ten years ago, five, ten years ago, they, experienced such a the staff experienced such a different level of stress. It was much reduced. The radio traffic for correctional officers changed completely, and just became much calmer. So it's a much better environment for staff to work in, and it also requires fewer staff. So this is as if you were standing with your back to the officer's podium. And with this layout, you can actually look into all four living units. So there's one on the left, one on the right. If you turn around, you can see the other ones. These clear lines of sight make it easier to staff facilities when you have limited staff to do so. So it just makes it a lot easier for the facility to function. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Can you talk a little bit about what reentry is? [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. Absolutely. So I'm gonna actually turn it over to my colleague, Kathy. Do you wanna talk a little bit about reentry? Sure. Yeah. [Witness Gail Zaz]: At at the main facility, women are allowed to go out to work, and they have great relationships with the employers in the area. One thing that they had pointed out to us is it's a little bit moved out of town, so transportation for the women to get to work has been an ongoing challenge and one of the things that we keep in mind in terms of where we wanna site the new facility. But they are able to go out during the day on their own. They've arranged transportation in a number of ways. I think when staffing got became challenging, employers were willing to come and get the women to pick them up and take them into town. And they're really allowed to pretty much work anytime of the day. They don't have specific shifts or [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: anything. Mhmm. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Yeah. Let me just step back in then one sec. Yep. So a reentry facility is something that where folks go to near the end of their sentence, And the goal is to get them ready to reenter. [Witness Gail Zaz]: Absolutely. [Chair Nader Hashim]: So I just wanna that that to be clear. [Speaker 5 ]: And the chair goes on. Right? Because we've said it before, but just for the new senators and new board member the new committee members is is exactly what you said about when we've asked them, what is the worst thing that you did wrong? And it was that it should have been two miles closer to transit. Mhmm. That's the worst thing they did. So that's how important it is. Yeah. So [Chair Nader Hashim]: Yeah. And I just wanna add on to that. We also heard that it was less expensive than regular Mhmm. Normally built facility. [Speaker 1 ]: Well, it's not a hardened facility. Didn't think about all concrete and rebar that go into a more traditional and correctional facility. A lot of this is a stick build, just cheaper in constructs. [Witness Gail Zaz]: And as as I could mention, because the staffing's less, that's a huge piece too, like, shipping cost. And the other thing I love about this facility that we keep in mind was it's flexible. So those there's sort of, like, four quadrants. And I don't think I've ever been there when it's been full, but they just have a lot of flexibility in bed space, which is another really great component. Women are able to wear their own clothing. They can bring their own bedding in their rooms. So when you look in their rooms, it looks more like a dorm room than any, like, correctional facility rooms. [Speaker 1 ]: They also have programming space. So this is where, mothers can meet with their children. We have a a similar space at CRCF. We had a retrofit part of the existing gym, so that one can operate the kids at park program, which is a a really wonderful program. But, again, you know, we didn't really have dedicated space for that, and so we had to take away some partial recreation areas that we could build that out. And so I think that's the difficulty that the department faces right now is CRCF, our existing facility, is so outdated and so inflexible that we have difficulty really dedicating the space to these kind of rebuilt in a programming needs that, you know, we we really want you as a system. [Witness Gail Zaz]: They have a great culinary program too. One of our visits, they literally had a menu at our seat, and the woman came in and took our order and then, you know, brought it back. And it's it's really great to interact with with the women in that capacity. You can just see the the pride they have and what they're doing, and it's, you know, normalizing the environment, [Chair Nader Hashim]: which is important. [Speaker 1 ]: Mhmm. And, you know, they get to practice some of those culinary skills with local employers. So, actually, the Bush family, which is a compound in Kennebunkport, they their pastry chef trains the incarcerated women from this facility, and helps get the, you know, job training skills, culinary skills, and those women are very highly sought after by local employers because of that skill set that training. So we're also really hoping that this you know, our version of this facility, which we'll talk about in a second, I think it really acts also as a, you know, employment mechanisms or a way to strengthen the workforce in Vermont. So looking across our state, I think, probably the closest analog here is the River Valley Therapeutic Residence. This is the DMH facility on the former Woodside site in Essex. So this is just if you're kind of by the Saint Mike's, Fullchester campus, it's kinda right down the hill there. [Chair Nader Hashim]: And and [Speaker 1 ]: this facility was is built, I think, using, again, those kind of evidence based design treatment modalities that we would like to employ in a correctional facility. So our facility would look a little bit different, but it would draw from the same palette. So here you see a community kitchen. Again, those have nested layers, higher ceilings, lots of natural light, natural materials. This is a group space. Again, forward ceiling windows. That circular window on the left is actually a security window. So that's where if you go back one slide, you can see there it is. The staff can actually look directly into the room and see what's going on, But at the same time, it's kind of created in such a way that looks more decorative and functional. The RVTBR building also has a beautiful artsy buildings mural. At first, it's quite surreal in the winter. It has a garden space. It is a secure facility. You'll see the fence there, but it's not that kind of razor wire that you might see in a traditional correctional setting. So this brings us to, you know, what we're kind of imagining right now. Again, we're very much in the early stages of this project when it comes to actual design. But we're thinking that it would kind of have a a core for the infrastructure. So there'd be those services, you know, like health care, vocational services, risk intervention and recreation, chapel, dining, food, all that would be kind of clustered in the center of the building with housing for incarcerated women surrounding that. Some administrative space, and then also that reentry setting as well, which you can see up there. And we're still trying to figure out exactly how all these pieces fit together, and working very closely with our partners at BGS to move this forward. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Yeah. [Speaker 1 ]: So we are looking at some potential sites in Essex. So I think, you know, one that we're very keen on is, a site, that's state owned property. It's AOT land from the old Cirque Highway, which is off of two a Susie Wilson bypass. So this is kind of just right now sort of scrub forest. There's a gas line that runs underneath it, although that wouldn't affect the construction. There's some vast trails as well, and those I don't think would be impacted. But we're looking at some of these sites here in the the site here in the southern part of this about fifty acre parcel. So still a lot of work to do, on the zoning front and working with the town of Essex on this. But that's sort of generally, kind of where we are project. I'm happy to answer any questions. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Talk through that. So Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Having gone to a controversy over structures in in in towns that that I've I've dealt with. I'm sure this is one Mhmm. What has been, one, the municipality, and two, the the general feeling of the residents in that area. Mhmm. [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. I would say this is certainly a really controversial policy area for the state of Vermont. I understand that no one wants to build prisons anywhere in our society. At the same time, I think the Department of Impressions, for its part, may leave a fundamentally different philosophy, I think, than some folks who say that we don't need any prisons at all. Some people I think we've heard from some some pockets, I think, more fringe elements, special interest groups Sure. That prisons have no place in Vermont. I think we struggle with that, you know, especially when we hear that that women don't commit crimes. You know, as folks probably know, we are holding an individual who's allegedly involved in the shooting of a border patrol agent recently, a fatal shooting, who is a a incarcerated woman. So I think we we really struggle sometimes with these difficult, conversations. They're very emotional, very volatile. However, I think it's very clear looking at those images of CRCF and for anyone, a staff member, incarcerated woman who spent time in that building, anyone who's visited that structure is overly outdated and that we have an obligation as a state to treat incarcerated women and staff in a more dignified manner. And I think that means making investments in infrastructure. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: So, obviously, the the next is the cost. Mhmm. What what do we estimate the cost of it? [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. I might defer here to our partners at BGS. I think some initial estimates, but we still have a lot of estimates. [Wanda Manoli]: We're above this. So I will the last number I mean, I just for the record, Wanda Manoli, commissioner of buildings and general services. I had the opportunity on my second day or third day of employment in this position go to meeting with the team from corrections regarding this project. And I'm I'm like, I have a number in my head, Isaac. I'm not sure if that was an internal number. Or I, [Speaker 1 ]: you know, I think we we're still circling around the exact estimates as we get closer, [Chair Nader Hashim]: but I [Speaker 1 ]: think, you know, at least seventy million That's [Wanda Manoli]: the number I have in my head. [Speaker 1 ]: Probably more. And the I think the important point to make here is that, you know, with every year that we wait to build the structure, construction possible will only increase. I think they go about, what, seven percent or ten percent a year. [Wanda Manoli]: All sorts of things. [Speaker 1 ]: All sorts of things. But and, you know, and the longer we wait, not only does it become more expensive, but the longer that the folks who live and work in that building have to remain in that structure. [Wanda Manoli]: I'd like to and to add, though, one of the my understanding and with the committees of jurisdiction in the last couple years, you know, we've gone out. We've looked at sites. We were asked to try to identify sites that the state already owned that had some infrastructure connection or [Speaker 1 ]: some [Wanda Manoli]: of those other costs to to do that. And so in this this presentation, also to be mindful of where the current employees work and that we reflect you know, look in the the the, that area because those the individuals currently working in South Burlington, obviously, it's probably not in the best interest to go to the other end of the state. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Right. [Wanda Manoli]: So using those parameters, we identify the property the state owns in assets. Mhmm. And there's a couple of parcels that we own that we've been looking at and exploring. And currently, we're trying to get a we're working with Essex and just asking for some more information on a zoning request for the property. Mhmm. And that's really gonna make a difference too, as you well know, and what is our final cost and what does it look like. Mhmm. Because that's a that's a piece of it, but they're we're looking at savings on that end. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: So at the but then it looks as if we there have been preliminary drawings and and the like for for for the facility. [Wanda Manoli]: I mean, we I think we've discussed and looked at the models that Isaac was just showing you, and it and I haven't been there. I've actually hoped to go. Mhmm. But the main model is something that the, department is the the philosophy and the policy around that is is something that you we are trying to adopt and bring into this design. Is that a fair statement? [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. Absolutely. And I, you know, I think when you speak to the folks who run that facility, Maine Department of Corrections, you know, they'll tell you that the recidivism rates for women who go through that building are extremely low. And especially for women who have access to a lot of that rehabilitated programming and education, you know, it's near zero percent. You know, right now, our recidivism rate in Vermont is around forty percent, men and women, I believe. And so we see this as a critical investment, you know, not just in infrastructure, but also in public safety. And I know WCAX did a piece recently on the facility in Maine that Christian Rola is talking about in the slides, and a woman who actually was in both CRCF and in the Maine system at the reentry facility. And she talked about how she would so much rather be incarcerated in Maine, because of the access that kind of structure and the ways in the to participate in programming, and rehabilitated services that we just physically can't fit in the building. And we have amazing community service providers like the Vermont network that runs the DIVA's counseling program. We have LUNGE, like I said, that runs Kids of Heart, Mercy Connections, Vermont Works for Women. They're directly embedded in the building, but they just don't have the space to run the kind of programming that they would like. And so we have a stakeholder group that's been working with us for the last several years now to plan this structure. And something that they have said very clearly, kind of two things. One, keep the facility, as close to its current footprint as possible. It's right down in South Burlington. So trying to keep it in that general area that's accessible for folks who work there. And then also to make sure that it has the adequate programming space to meet their needs and the needs of the incarcerated women. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Okay. So starting the [Speaker 5 ]: I can't remember, madam chair. We did park some money last year. I think we did park some money for this this prison, but as you're looking on this year's capital bill, when you look at the extended range, you can see where we plan to park some money up to fifty nine million. So it's so we're working towards that goal of whatever the whatever the money's in so it doesn't have to come all in one budget. Yeah. Right. [Chair Nader Hashim]: And I just wanna make sure that we don't just talk about the reentry facility in Maine, but the prison itself. Because there's a men's prison and a women's prison just up the hill. Yeah. And at least one of those is new, and it's also much different. The it has really good outdoor spaces. It has private spaces. It it has places where you can talk to your lawyer or therapist. It had it's it's just completely different from from what you'll see in Vermont. And it's also restorative, and and and they have art. And and that's that's where the the main culinary Mhmm. You know, classes are. So I I don't want us to forget about those. So when you do go to main when we go to main, we'll see that as well as the pre entry. Mhmm. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Wow. There's heavy lifts. [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. It it is a big it's a big app. It's the key part of our infrastructure, and it's our only facility for women in the state. We have five men's facility, facilities, one female facility, CRCF, and CRCF really is our kinda oldest structure. And so I know something chair Emmons has been very vocal about in house corrections upstairs, but very much, you know, this is a high priority item for us as a department. And I think if I I can speak for the commissioner, I think he would say, you know, it's very difficult for us to meet our mission to the state. You know, our mission as outlined in statute, in title twenty eight, if we don't have the facilities to do that. We're trying to grab what I think is a, you know, a very modern, leading vision for corrections in the United States onto structures that are fifty years old, and there's a fundamental tension there. You know, it's very some of the incarcerated women will tell you, very difficult to achieve rehabilitation inside of a concrete box. Yeah. And that's what we're trying to do. And so that we're really you know, our values have shifted. We, you know, we put together a strategic plan. We've published our vision, mission, values, recently, just the last couple of years that reflect a totally different ideology fifty years ago, but we're still stuck with those buildings. Mhmm. So we're really trying to bring this system forward. And I think CRCF, the replacement for CRCF, this new facility will be the template for what the rest of Vermont's facility should look like. Yeah. [Chair Nader Hashim]: And it's not just old. It's bad. Yeah. I mean, it's [Speaker 5 ]: It's just old. [Chair Nader Hashim]: It's punitive. Mhmm. It's you I I applaud anyone who can get better in that facility because I don't see that. But [Speaker 5 ]: Now the one thing that makes me feel good about it all as far as the new plan is that when everybody's on the cutting edge and wanting to be first, and Vermont seems to lead that in a lot of different areas, right or wrong, or more wrong than right, I think, sometimes, trying these new ideas. This has been proven out. And and which I which I'm a very big fan of. It's proven out for a lot of different reasons. One is it's better for humans. The other is it's cheaper. Mhmm. And and the third thing and most important thing, there's proven success. And I think those are it's an important formula. Yeah. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Mhmm. Yeah. [Speaker 1 ]: I mean, thank you, Kanish. It's Senator's point. Our goal is not to have women return to our custody. Yeah. Our goal is really yeah. The commissioner will say, yeah, he wishes he could put himself at a job tomorrow. [Speaker 5 ]: Right? And We also heard as well, to your point, you touched upon it, but we even actually have heard before in the two years previous that we've been talking about this where there were some women that actually didn't wanna leave the facility in the [Chair Nader Hashim]: Right. Especially the reentered one. Right. Or community. Yeah. Which is a different situation because you're getting support, and it's meant to be ongoing, and the person themselves can decide when to go. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Yeah. There there are a lot of factors, obviously. So you may or may not be able to answer this question of either zoning factors or municipality factors or dietary factors. But you're testifying, so I'm gonna ask you the question. If you [Wanda Manoli]: Have you already Yeah. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Yep. Everything worked out when you would you see this [Wanda Manoli]: How is [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: the start of this coming on? [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. No. That that's a great question. And, you know, again, I think I'll defer more to my, you know, colleagues at at PGS, and that's more of kind of a a how question. Mhmm. But I think, you know, we've said at least three years of of permitting Rockland. But [Wanda Manoli]: Yeah. To yeah. I think that's, you know, you know, our first step of success when working with the community is for this particular project is getting a zoning change. That's really critical. And with everything, you know, as we move forward, then we would move into the more larger permitting and and more specific designs and working with the community and presenting those to them, to the design review board, to working with neighbors, looking at the site. You know, that's easily, I think, a year process. Mhmm. You know? So, you know, two two years and then and then comes the funding. Right? Then it comes to final design and and and the funding, and how do we advance the construction of that that project? [Speaker 1 ]: Yeah. The capital bill will be essential to obviously Right. Between this board is which you mentioned. [Wanda Manoli]: My understanding, I believe you we have sixteen million currently, roughly, appropriated already for this project that will help us. It's fourteen to sixteen to advance it, and I believe you did that last year or two years ago. So we do have some of that money sitting there. Alright. We're a great team. We're we're, again, really at that critical point on all of our permits. And as you well know, that takes a little bit of time. Yes. And we're you know, and we want to work with the community ongoing to that. [Speaker 1 ]: I think with And it's a part of ownership. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Oh, absolutely. What's the distance between residential and the parcel of land? [Speaker 1 ]: In terms of the, like, the neighborhood directly around, I can flip back to some of those slides. There's a little bit there's some residential area here. This is mostly somebody going as, like, you know, a lot of industrial. Some medium density residential, though there's been really no housing in this plot. Actually, I would say that CRC, yeah, the current footprint is far more residential. You've seen that. So there are houses right next to the parking lot. It's directly across from a dance studio, Vermont Gas, Flavors Bakery. But that, you know, that plot people have asked us, well, why don't we just demo that existing building and build on top of it or retrofit the building itself? You know, it's it would actually probably be more expensive to try and, you know, demo somewhere and retrofit some of it. Also, the footprint is too small, and it's built in a lot of wetlands. That's great. A lot of issues. So we really need to vacate that site. I think I'm still [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: built on wetlands. So it's the acting [Chair Nader Hashim]: fifty. Well, the existing [Wanda Manoli]: We are we are on these Right. Approved for that site. So you know? But the site does not add, you you know, so you would have to build up. You would have very limited outdoor space Yeah. Which I think those doesn't align with the vision and the programming and what you're trying to do. I think part of the reentry vision would be very difficult to do. I mean, you'd have to you'd have to give up some of your programming visions in order to utilize that that site. You know? So there you know, because I asked the question, but these sites provide more programming opportunity because of the size. It's not that we need it's not that it's all gonna be huge and we're gonna fill all of this. Mhmm. It gives us more flexibility. There's good amount of land for there's two locations actually in Essex, and they're both over ten acres, I believe Mhmm. Which is significant to the postage stamp, you know, that we have in in South Burlington. So it really gives a lot more programming opportunities. And [Chair Nader Hashim]: we'll go see it. [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: Yes. And I wanna add a little [Speaker 5 ]: bit on that. I'm not asking for a comment on from corrections or BDS, but there have been arguments in this building about bed counts and all of that. I don't wanna get into bed counts, but I wanna get into this. The thing what happens is when you build a facility too small is the first thing that does when they need more space is they take the programming areas. Mhmm. And the success of these facilities, in my opinion, and what you've been proven out is what we've learned through as we've been doing this, are the programmings. It it has to allow that to have programmings and not be still in the spaces, the gymnasiums, or the areas to put bed more beds in as you need them. So I think, again, I'm gonna make a a discussion about anything to do with that other than as we move forward in this, if we're all still involved with it, is to be mindful of the size of the facility to make sure that it's big enough to be able to have the successes that they're having in other areas. And to Senator's point, you [Speaker 1 ]: know, you're exactly right. And one of the worst things you can do in any correctional environment is overcrowd, which leads to just myriad of issues. A very infamous case is the Florida decision, Supreme Court decision at the state of California, where they had were just crowding those facilities and it led to, you know, violence, just really poor outcomes for incarcerated folks. The American Correctional Association, ACA, recommends that facilities are never filled more than eighty five percent, that they, you know, recommend a fifteen percent buffer so that, you know, when you have to close down a unit, and you have to do because there's a door issue or you need to replace something, you need to have slack in the facility for folks to move around. Otherwise, you're going to start adding three people to a cell. They're gonna be cannibalizing those spaces for programming and recreation and using those to house individuals. So rather than folks having their own spaces, now you have twenty or thirty or fifty folks in a gymnasium, which is clearly not rehabilitated or appropriate. And so as we design this building, we're still very much circling around bed counts. I think a lot of it is gonna depend on the the site and, you know, how quickly we're able to bring things online. But, you know, right now, we're covering around that one hundred and thirty women number. About, you know, half of those are detainees right now. The department has no control over the folks who who come to us, particularly as detainees. And so we just need to make sure that we have the adequate space to take care of them when they come into custody. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Alright. Does anyone else wanna speak? [Witness Gail Zaz]: I'll just add that, although I know people are concerned that if the bed count's too high, that we'll fill it up. But we like to point out that the current, capacity of Chittenden is a hundred and seventy seven, and we haven't I don't think we've ever been there, but women only with women were there at some point. And then just we've never built a facility in Vermont intended for women. And the women have been moved around the state quite a bit and kind of shoehorned into facilities built for men. And, you know, one of the reasons as we've said that we don't wanna move the facility very far from Chittenden is they've been at that site now since twenty twelve, and this is, like, the longest period we've had to really work with staff on the nuances of working with women. So the number one principle of gender responsivity is that gender matters, and there's so many differences of what incarcerated women need versus incarcerated men. And this is such an opportunity to be able to from from the beginning, build something that's going to address the unique needs of women and to give them an environment that's healing. Trauma is such a huge piece of what brings women into our system. So, you know, it it just is important at so many levels, and and I think it's gonna be a real game changer in terms of recidivism and healing to be able to provide that environment. And once we have that established, I mean, a lot of the principles that we talk about aren't just gender responsive. They're trauma informed. And, certainly, the men in our system have experienced trauma as well. And I I'd like to think that this facility is gonna be the model for what we continue to see, what we provide in Vermont, within our department. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Thank you. [Witness Gail Zaz]: Sorry. Did you want it? Okay. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Sounds good. Okay. Mhmm. [Speaker 1 ]: And, well, if you have any questions, please reach out to me, and and very much appreciate this, Matthew. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Thank you. [Speaker 5 ]: Appreciate your time. Can you continue? Is it, possible Cool. [Speaker 1 ]: I don't [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: know if she's is that [Speaker 1 ]: you can [Vice Chair Robert Norris]: send that to us, the Yes. [Speaker 1 ]: Or she Oh, she can re yeah. Alright. Thank you. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Okay. So anything else, committee? [Speaker 5 ]: I'm good. Nothing. [Chair Nader Hashim]: Not? Okay. We're adjourned.

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