SmartTranscript of Senate Government Operations - 2025-03-11 - 1:30PM

[Chair Brian Collamore]: Welcome back to the senate committee on government operations meeting of Thursday, March thirteenth two thousand twenty five. We are going to first look at s fifty six, an act relating to creating an office of new Americans. And joining us is Lauren Hibbert from the secretary of state's office deputy secretary. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: Yes, Catherine. [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: Welcome. Thank you so much. And for the record, I'm Lauren Hibbert, deputy secretary of state. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on this bill. We really support the creation of [Member Becca White]: a study [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: group to contemplate creating an Office of New Americans. We also appreciate that we're not a named member of the study group, but a critical group to be considered. And we definitely feel so. We do have a recommendation for an amendment. Currently in this bill, only our Office of Professional Regulation is noted as an entity to be consulted, but we feel that the entire Secretary of State's office should be a consultant entity. And that's because our office supports new Americans in a variety of ways. For instance, we have many new Americans who set up new businesses. We wanna make sure that our business services division is accessible and has appropriate resources. We have many new Americans who vote for the first time and get registered for the first time. And it's actually a really important piece of secretary Copeland Kansas' administration that we go to every naturalization ceremony that occurs in the state. And it's incredibly moving. I have the opportunity to go on her behalf sometimes and to have new Americans be able to register to vote and understand the importance of just that small size of civics. Of course, there's a lot more that's voting in civics, but we really feel strongly that new Americans need to be brought into that American democracy as quickly and equally as possible. Also, new Americans interact with our office that maintains records and archives. MASARA, the Vermont State Records and Archives Administration, which you might think, why? But right now, there are record numbers of new Americans seeking the certified copies of their children's birth certificates. Because their children were born in America and they are new citizens. So the challenges to birthright citizenship happening right now are causing a dramatic increase to the use of our records and archives administration and also marriage certificates. You know, apostilles of marriage certificates are really important. So it's not just within the Office of Professional Regulation, although it is also in the Office of Professional Regulation. We really wanna make sure that individuals who are bereaved in other countries to perform an occupation are qualified to do an occupation. Half of the pathway to licensure in Vermont and are able to practice at their highest ability. And the Office of Professional Regulation has been really dedicated to this work. We received a federal grant where we did extensive work trying to make sure that there were well, I can't say that there are none that we work to reduce barriers for new Americans seeking occupational licensure. And we've done a lot of work in that space, but we know we have more work to do. And so because our office is, in a number of ways, the first staff in becoming civically engaged, entering the workforce, starting a business, or having appropriate documentation for your family, we think it's crucial that we're consulted. And we also think it's crucial that we have the support and guidance of an office that's dedicated to this work that would be incredibly helpful for us. We really try our best. We use translation services. We have some, not all. We it would be fiscally and logistically very difficult to have all of our resources accessible in all languages, but we use the resources available. We use translation services quite frequently. We really try our best, but we know we have room for improvement. And in the office, new Americans would really help us, and we'd love to have input into what that would mean, what that health would look like and should look like. So we would love to be a stakeholder that is consulted but not a member of the committee. [Chair Brian Collamore]: K. Senator Webb. [Member Becca White]: Thank you, mister Shaker. And thank you so much. That's a really good point. So if I'm understanding your projections correctly, we would probably, on page three, line ten, change office of protect professional regulation to the secretary of state [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: That that is our recommendation. We really we see in every area of our office. And we just think it would be best if we were just generally named and then we could bring the right stakeholders to the meeting. [Member Becca White]: And I would just say as someone my mother-in-law became a new American this last year, and we had the naturalization ceremony in Rockland, and secretary Hovland Hombas was there. And it was such a joy to be able to have I mean, I didn't though I didn't know she was gonna be there. The many other folks did not, I think, necessarily expect her or knew she was on the agenda. And it was so beautiful. And it made me feel really good to be over monitored at that level. That person that level of authority at that naturalization ceremony. So I really appreciate that you do hold that in such [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: a high regard. And I'm Let me I don't think I've been to a single one where I have not literally arrived to hold back peers. And we have the opportunity to speak. And it's just how do you communicate to the individuals, usually from such a diverse group of countries with such a diverse group of stories while they got there, how touching it is that they chose us. Right? So yeah. [Chair Brian Collamore]: I've been with you too. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Awesome. In in Brooklyn. Yeah. You have your [Chair Brian Collamore]: My eyes were moist. Oh, it's very moving. [Member Larry Hart]: We do them at the homestead site every year. [Chair Brian Collamore]: So does anyone have any problem adding Yeah. Replacing the office of professional regulation with the secretary of state's office? [Member Larry Hart]: No. Not at all. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. Luckily, we have both of them and Tucker here. So as even if we speak, I'm sure they can be [Member Alison Clarkson]: make subtle change. In real time, [Member Larry Hart]: Salut has any rules and supported by so many wives. Let's just look at it. Yeah. Oh my god. So they do okay. [Chair Brian Collamore]: I have another Oh, I'm sorry. It's another collection. [Member Larry Hart]: No. I just had another issue. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: Oh, was it for [Member Larry Hart]: a warrant? I never have an issue. Oh, okay. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Does anyone else have a question for a warrant? Oh, wait. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Where are we? [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. So thank you very much. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I appreciate your time. [Chair Brian Collamore]: There was one other I don't wanna say issue, but suggestion that came up overnight. Senator Clarkson had an opportunity to talk with Dave [Member Larry Hart]: Alex. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Alex. I'm sorry. From the credit. Oh, mhmm. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Alex. Alex. [Chair Brian Collamore]: And the suggestion was to take out World Yeah. World education and replace it with I don't have a problem with that, I guess. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Any suggestion that was given to me by that was to combine those two, and if switching to Brattleboro instead of world education accomplishes them working together on the committee, that's fine. [Member Larry Hart]: So can I just elaborate on it? The the the World Education Services is Mike who is up on the screen. It's a national organization, not necessarily appropriate for this. Okay. Whereas the Brown and Hurdle Credit Corp has they do the work with employment services and all the work with new Americans. I mean, that's what they're they're a huge part of their office is devoted to. So the other recommended make recommendation Alex Beck had was supported one that we talked about but didn't act on, which was having one new American with lived experience here. Yeah. And I just think Who would make that appointment that it it's already being appointed by the governor. Seven members appointed by the governor shall include. No. No. [Member Alison Clarkson]: We don't have someone with lived experience in the bill. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: We have five members appointed by the governor. [Member Larry Hart]: I know. But I'm saying in that section, she asked who would appoint them, and they said that that it's gonna be appointed by the governor if we wanted. Okay. But I'm He just he was supportive of our our litigate with lived experience. [Chair Brian Collamore]: And I understand. And I think I'm firmly in the corner of leaving it at eight, and I think eight is plenty. I don't think we need to go to nine, but I could be persuaded if anybody's a great salesperson. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I also think there's another way to achieve this without adding them. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. [Member Alison Clarkson]: We have someone appointed. I don't have the most recent copy, so I can actually remember [Member Larry Hart]: the copy was always I have [Chair Brian Collamore]: mailed it to you at all. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I but what was printed and given to me was another copy of one point one, which it was yesterday. So This [Chair Brian Collamore]: is two point one. [Member Larry Hart]: Yeah. We didn't [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: get it. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: Two point. [Member Alison Clarkson]: We didn't get it. So what I'm wondering, thank you Mhmm. Is if in I'm just looking who's appointing whom. So we have someone from appointed from AALB, someone appointed from the app the Afghan Alliance, and someone appointed from migrant justice. I'm wondering if what we can do is put a line in here that says at least one of these members needs to be someone [Member Larry Hart]: who has experience. [Member Alison Clarkson]: This way, we don't add a member, but it indicates that one of the people on the Yeah. This group needs to have lived experience. [Member Larry Hart]: And I think Ruth, who was testifies would be great. I mean, it I think either one yeah. I think that's a great Yeah. [Member Alison Clarkson]: So we stick with with eight, but we add a line in saying that one of the members of those eight needs to have lived experience as a new American. [Chair Brian Collamore]: I applaud your creative thinking, and I'm fine with them. [Member Larry Hart]: There she is. Even for social worker. Very creative. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Is anyone not okay with that? [Member Larry Hart]: Who are we giving that suggestion to? [Speaker 7 ]: Tim or Tucker? Well, I think they're both scribbling. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: And I was momentarily attracted tracking down the right version to send over to Jillian, could you run that by me? [Member Alison Clarkson]: So of the eight members that are appointed to this committee, one of them must be someone with lived experience as a new American in Verma. [Chair Brian Collamore]: So it [Member Alison Clarkson]: does not add a member. It just [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. If you add that, since we haven't defined new American, it may get a little bit wonky. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Oh, what an interesting one. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: If we [Member Becca White]: have them I'll [Chair Brian Collamore]: be able to either talk to them to trade myself. But [Member Larry Hart]: I bet they're clever enough. They're so great. They'll come up with a brilliant solution. Yeah. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: I mean, we could for the record, Tim Neville, let's say, council let's see. There's one entity that the the governor is appointing a good number of these people who can bring it up to their determination might not by confusion. [Speaker 7 ]: I was gonna raise Tucker Anderson, legislative council. I was gonna raise that as a potential hurdle to this idea is that you have some members who are ex officio members, and then you have a group of people who are appointed by the governor. Yeah. So who would carry the burden of ensuring that there's individual lived experience if you have members. For example, you have the secretary of state's office appointing a member, the governor appointing a five, you have ex officio members. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: Well, so much for your agreement thinking. [Member Larry Hart]: No. No. I think we As Tim pointed out, if we go through agreement [Member Alison Clarkson]: I I think if we build it in as [Member Larry Hart]: so I'm wondering I think that you could somehow figure it because you're right. The the the AALD and the Afghan alliance are being appointed by two different groups. But I think you could I think you could require with say it [Chair Brian Collamore]: What about that? [Member Larry Hart]: Why not write it at the beginning under membership? The committee shall be composed of the following with the expectation that at least one member be a person of of of a new American with lived experience. I know we haven't defined new American yet, and but we are using it in the past. So we have a rough guess notion of what we're thinking about. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: I would recommend inserting it under section four. It may read out for me, but something along the lines of five members appointed by the governor, one who must be a new American with lived experience. That's the new language. Who shall include? That way, you have Okay. Governor yeah. Just keep kinda checking off the list of submissions he's getting for coordinating with the first three. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Okay. That works. The only question that that raises for me and, again, I'm working off an old copy. So if I'm incorrect so at this point in time, the member representing the Association of Africans Living in Vermont is not appointed by the governor. Correct. But the members from the Afghan Alliance and Migrant Justice are appointed by the governor, so it creates a weird disconnect from the agencies that would likely be connected to people with lived experience. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: What are [Chair Brian Collamore]: there's two verbs there. One is nominated by, and one is appointed by. [Member Larry Hart]: One is representing. Then one is represented by. We've got three [Chair Brian Collamore]: members. So the the one member nominated by the Association of Africans living in Vermont, that nomination would go to the governor who would that point. [Member Larry Hart]: It's represented. It's It's not. Is out. That's out of the government. Oh. Because [Member Alison Clarkson]: at least I I think it is. [Member Larry Hart]: It is at the moment. Well, I [Member Alison Clarkson]: don't I again, I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. [Speaker 7 ]: There is an updated draft just because I did point [Chair Brian Collamore]: it out that both of [Speaker 7 ]: the bill is introduced and the amendments that you've been looking at. A state actor has to be the one actually appointing members to a state committee. You can't have a nonprofit entity directly appointed to [Member Alison Clarkson]: So they're all owned by the governor now? Okay. Then I no longer have an issue. Never mind. [Member Larry Hart]: I I my statement. Easily do what Tim just said. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Yes. I say we do that. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: And a version it should have a two point one. Sorry for that delay. That's Our part, you should have them open. Sorry about that, Julian. Spot frame means five and four. And, indeed, just to reiterate what Doctor said, section four, which is the five members appointment to go over, all of those had the same language at one number dominated by facts that repeats, repeats with the other side. [Chair Brian Collamore]: I have the section one. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: It is section one. Not four. What? [Member Larry Hart]: It's all under section one. Oh, sorry. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: I apologize. It is section one of the subdivision Yep. Fee. Yep. Four. Okay. Yes. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. I'm just reading through what we've included, both commerce and economic development committees and house general. We put them on asylum assistance project in there. We're gonna change ODRs to secretary of state. The only other thing I raised, and thank goodness, doctor [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: is smarter than I am, [Chair Brian Collamore]: I said since we deleted the members of the legislature from being in there, it's still in there for men for attendance at the meetings. They'll be entitled to per team. And I said, well, I would just delete that. But he said, yeah. What if one of those appointing people say, I wanna have senator White on this? So then Then you would then you would so we need to leave that in. [Member Becca White]: Yeah. Well, but then is in my head. [Member Larry Hart]: Don't you also need to say if there is a legislator appointed, they would be [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. [Chair Brian Collamore]: No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No [Member Becca White]: No. It's do you have [Speaker 7 ]: two point one? Have two point one? [Chair Brian Collamore]: No. You don't need two point one because it was in the other one too. It's right above the effective date. [Member Larry Hart]: I believe it. All the events are gonna be displaying titles of the date. Right? That's enough. They are. Okay. And then we change it to ten meetings? Yeah. Okay. [Chair Brian Collamore]: We good? I know this is getting squirrelly because we're all looking [Member Larry Hart]: No. We're talking about [Chair Brian Collamore]: items here. [Member Larry Hart]: I'm not fine. [Chair Brian Collamore]: But I think we have [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: what we need. I think we're [Member Alison Clarkson]: Would you entertain a motion? [Chair Brian Collamore]: As long as Well Tim? [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: No. So I so you all have two point one, which is what, senator Palmer, you had this morning. I've been just Right. Kind of updating it. Three different items have been incorporated. Okay. Yeah. So we're doing three point one now. I can read them into the record if you'd like, or I could just modify this and send it to Jillian again, and then you can build up with that. It's about you. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Either way. Do you have three point one there? No. I think it's still just right here. Alright. That's alright. So going down with the three changes [Member Becca White]: three point one now. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Sorry. No. I think [Member Alison Clarkson]: We're going to change [Chair Brian Collamore]: OPR to secretary of state. Yes. We're going to take your suggestion, Hans. He's about where to put that other member, and it's going to be lived experience, and it's gonna be in that group of people that are appointed by the governor. And what was the third one? [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: The changing of one of the members to be nominated for the development. Oh, yes. Yes. [Chair Brian Collamore]: And take the education Yeah. Whatever that was out. I don't have it here because it's gone. [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: Okay. Sorry. I got it. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. Committee, any more changes, or are you comfortable? I'm fine. Are you understanding what we're doing, and everybody's okay? I'm okay. Okay. Let's take another vote, and I will entertain a motion to pass this to strike off three point one. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I would move that we vote out s fifty fifty six, draft three point one favorably. [Chair Brian Collamore]: And I'll second it. So I get rid of the title of this down. You you can do that now or Yeah. At your leisure? Don't look at that because I don't it's three point one. Three point one. [Member Larry Hart]: So all you need is draft three point one on there. S fifty six. Fifty six. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Don't get that, Jeff. And Tim will print that out for you when you well, actually, it's gonna be sending me a housekeeping report, and so she'll pick it up. Okay. Heather Clarkson? [Member Larry Hart]: Yes. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Heather Herrera? Yes. Senator Wachowski? [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: Yes. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Senator White? [Member Becca White]: Yes. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Senator Colomore? Yes. Okay. Five zero zero. Great. We work well together again. Yeah. This is a real No. Remedial [Member Becca White]: This is a [Chair Brian Collamore]: compromised bill. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Yeah. And [Member Becca White]: I just wanna say I really appreciate because I was here last session when we had this bill, and I think at the end of the year, I felt [Member Alison Clarkson]: a little defeated [Member Larry Hart]: that we hadn't been able [Member Becca White]: to take it up because we did pass a ton of bills last year. [Member Larry Hart]: We got a high total to catch up to. We want Yeah. [Chair Brian Collamore]: I know. I know. [Member Becca White]: But we're getting there, and this is one of the bills that I was like, shocks. We got lacked, and that's why we didn't do it. So I really appreciate that you took the time. Because at this moment, new Americans are feeling attacked, and we also have to support them for long standing reasons. So there's it's it's a very it's a big moment. So I appreciate it. [Member Larry Hart]: And who and you report it? [Chair Brian Collamore]: Right. [Member Becca White]: Anytime. [Member Larry Hart]: Seriously, long historical perspective. We're all new Americans. Right. Right. Right? Yeah. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. As soon as that's printed, you could give it to senator Bialfi, and she'll have the original bill of the vote. And that'll also be [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: on notice tomorrow, the report for Tuesday. Okay. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Finally, today, let's Do you think that You don't have to do anything to get that done. Well, actually, you don't have to give her anything. You need to give that back to Julian's. Okay. Have that. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Let's go, like, one minute. [Chair Brian Collamore]: That would take us to three point one. She can go up and pick it up. Yep. So Enough long. We have time because I'd like to leave you a little sunshine Just a bullet on it. To I [Member Larry Hart]: have to go about the commission. That's why. [Chair Brian Collamore]: When? [Member Alison Clarkson]: And I have a meeting with the governor. Welcome. [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: And you [Member Alison Clarkson]: will be with the what? The governor. Oh god. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Alright. Let's talk about SCE board if we could. We just got a news flash. Speaking of news from Paul, that the house committee has not voted it out. And that what's John. Remember that? And Jonathan Gray. Here. So bring us up to date if you want. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Sure. To the extent that I can. Paul Heinz, roving journalist and working for community news at the moment on this initiative. So I don't know how exactly to describe the status of things in the house committee, but I would say progress has slowed a little bit. It might be the most dramatic way to put it. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: I [Witness Paul Heinz]: think it is quite possible there will still be a vote tomorrow morning on it over there. And so I know that leads you all in not a great position, I realize, with with a single day left. I was hoping to be able to tell you that he's moving forward over there, and you could take your time with it. And I think one of the challenges is just availability of of witness and just you know, I think there is some kind of a chicken egg question with this bill, which is I think some folks in that committee want to know how much we're spending on advertising before we Wanted to know that. Right. Before we take action. But the bill actually achieves that. The the bill mandates that we that we so, you know, I think, you know, in my view, by passing this legislation, it sort of satisfies that desire. It it addresses that that desire that we all have to better understand it. So, you know, I I guess I humbly wonder whether you might be able to consider this tomorrow. It is still possible that at, like, nine thirty or ten full morning, they'll have passed out of that committee, and I can come to you and say, we're [Chair Brian Collamore]: good to go. [Witness Paul Heinz]: But kinda head my back here a little bit to be perfectly candid. Well So I don't know [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: how you [Witness Paul Heinz]: feel about that. Yeah. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Let me ask you this for a quick call. Did they hear testimony from Beth Vistigi, did they? [Witness Paul Heinz]: They did, and that was illuminating. She explained some of the challenges around employment as the fact that they do, though, about sixty five percent of certain types of advertising is in state when it comes to employment. Mhmm. They do rely heavily on Indeed. And so at that point, you know, we all made clear we're happy to totally happy to exempt Employment. Employment. And so the so that is in the draft that they're currently considering. They are additionally exempting employment. So exempting tourism as well as employment. [Member Larry Hart]: Tourism and marketing. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Correct. Well, I think the word is tourism in the in the language, but I [Member Larry Hart]: Yes. I [Witness Paul Heinz]: take it as the same thing, but I don't Yes. So there was also some discussion of the percentage, the exact percentage, which, you know, for the purposes of keeping the conversation going, like, happy to talk about a number. Good. [Chair Brian Collamore]: So, yeah, you mentioned the witness that either wasn't available or [Witness Paul Heinz]: BGS is apparently not making itself available. And so I think that's a challenge and not one that we really can do anything about. So [Chair Brian Collamore]: I think yeah. I'm still pulling up. Oh, okay. [Witness Paul Heinz]: But I don't know if there's a version of this that you know, if just getting this through. If things don't move forward over there, if there's a version of it that you all will feel comfortable moving forward tomorrow to keep it alive, you know, maybe that would be an approach, or maybe you're all comfortable with it as it is. You know? So, like [Member Becca White]: I'm comfortable with the bill with the addition of employment ads being separate because of the use of our former constituent's employer. So I I would be open to that change and voting in favor of the bill of this. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Sorry. May I ask you? [Member Alison Clarkson]: I am a little uncomfortable. There's still some people I would have wanted to hear from them, some tightening up of some definitions that I had wanted in. So I feel a little uncomfortable moving it forward without having the time to do that. It sounds like there's been a lot of testimony in the house, and I don't know what [Member Larry Hart]: we would get back or [Member Alison Clarkson]: if we'd get back anything from them if they're in their space. But I don't wanna see it die. And so I'm I'm grappling with that a little bit because I do have some some things that I'd be comfortable moving forward for additional discussion, but I would not be comfortable not addressing and passing. And so I I find myself in a weird position of being, like, sure. I'll vote for something, but if it doesn't get changed over there, I'm [Member Larry Hart]: not gonna vote for it again. Well, people come back. Constance tonight. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Yeah. I have similar concerns. I what I don't want is for us to be rushed and then look back later if someone said, you never heard from this witness. You never rang that. You just sort of you didn't take enough testimony kinda thing. I don't think there's any problem with the five of us that we want something passed before [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: our crossover, which is key. [Chair Brian Collamore]: And I'm happy if the house counterparts take it up early in the morning. Yeah. We can do this tomorrow. I guess my twenty five words or less thing. I'd be glad to take take it up again tomorrow. We we have till five o'clock to pass something out. And but I I think senator Biosky's raised a good point. I I also would like to know if we're spending seven and a half million dollars. Really? [Member Larry Hart]: I think we're [Chair Brian Collamore]: spending I think I do too. Right? So that's where I am on it. And as senator White correctly predict, if if there's two of these going in the same direction [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yeah. [Chair Brian Collamore]: At some point, ours is gonna go there and theirs is gonna come here. And I think we could get together with them and and hammer out a a reasonable comp. I see if it if it's gotta be seventy five percent Right. Whatever. [Member Alison Clarkson]: My hope would be that they would just get us something so that we have time. It just it feels strange as a committee to say, we're not gonna do any work on this. We're just gonna send it over there where they've already been working on it as opposed to [Witness Paul Heinz]: I agree. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Having them send us something that's to to work on. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Certainly. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yeah. I totally totally hear that. And, you know, to your point, and I I share your concerns about, you know, making sure we have the definitions just right. I do think it is, you know, worth reiterating. Right now, there are no restrictions of any type on what media state can spend its money on. And so all of this this this doesn't open it up any wider. All it says, it kind of it closes it down a little bit and for that eighty percent. Right? This kind of brings it a little bit more towards state. So, you know, I I think the concerns that you and I discussed, you know, perhaps those could be addressed separately. You know, it feels like that's once you start to get into that question of specific news outlets, specific forms of media, I feel like that can get a little bit dicey, which is why we sort of taken this really big time approach. You know, I completely understand where [Chair Brian Collamore]: you're coming from and and [Witness Paul Heinz]: don't disagree. But maybe to save you all time, because I don't wanna keep you away from the sunlight, maybe the thing to do, if it makes sense on your end, is tomorrow, we'll we'll all cross our fingers that the house takes action. If it looks like that's not gonna happen by midmorning, maybe we can think of a scaled slightly scaled back version of it to keep it alive that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable, and maybe that's something that that we could discuss later in the day. [Member Larry Hart]: So what? That's fine. I'm ready to hear it. So Or or not. It's an evolving conversation. We know it's an evolving conversation. If we pass this even out as we have it now with jobs added, it's an evolving conversation. So I'm happy to look at it tomorrow, but I'd really like to have us send this right. [Witness Paul Heinz]: I'd come in on that. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I would like I could see that from the house. Yeah. Yeah. [Member Larry Hart]: But we've been asked for Paula Manoli if [Chair Brian Collamore]: she could come in tomorrow. She's a BGS. Said [Member Larry Hart]: Oh. And you already asked an emergency. Yes. Well, emergency calls are yeah. So the interest it's not an emergency, but, yes, we would like to have it. [Member Becca White]: As much of a legislative issue that can be an emergency [Member Alison Clarkson]: There was also someone that you had suggested, April Barton? [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yes. She has a family, yeah, a a family health issue at the moment. So she could be available. By Zoom. Yeah. She I I could ask her again, but she's she's supporting government right now. It might be a little bit challenging for her. But, I mean, you know, I can what what she will tell tell you is that, she spent you know, she's an accomplished journalist, and she spent some quite a bit of time putting a reference request trying to answer this question. And I think, like, her her takeaway is, like, I just don't [Speaker 7 ]: know, which is sort of [Witness Paul Heinz]: brings us back to the the point of the bill in the first place, which is, like, we could get that answer every we could bring in every single department and agency, and they could give us the answer to their department or agency. No doubt about it. I think the chunk, there's not one centralized place. And I, you know, I I suspect maybe BTS will say tomorrow that it'll be you know? Well, I don't actually predict what they're gonna say, but, I I do think it's important for us to know down the line, like, what it is, which is more service [Member Larry Hart]: to this time. So with the chill in, it doesn't have to be whoever oversees that yet. Well, she's the Okay. [Member Alison Clarkson]: We don't Yeah. She may not [Member Larry Hart]: have I mean, if she if there's somebody else, like, a designee for from Wanda's office, that's probably [Chair Brian Collamore]: Yeah. That'd be [Member Becca White]: Legislatures on an emergency. Like, I've never experienced a dilemma. That's seen necessarily, but, like [Chair Brian Collamore]: Well, let's be honest. We're asking her to do something that she's not doing right now, so her workload will increase. I'm just trying to give her the opportunity to let us know by how much and whether it's [Member Becca White]: Yeah. I saw her in the building earlier today. So [Chair Brian Collamore]: Oh, you did? [Member Becca White]: Yes. She was [Member Larry Hart]: She was in our Yeah. [Member Becca White]: So I don't know why she's if Yeah. So that's my [Member Alison Clarkson]: I just I recall that I had some questions for you that you thought people would be better able to answer. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Right. And but I know what you're doing with those questions were. So am I. [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: I I could [Member Larry Hart]: watch a video, and maybe we could email her. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yes. And she could definitely respond by email for sure. I could connect you do you [Chair Brian Collamore]: want me to connect you by email? I can. She could just just going. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yeah. Okay. Yep. Yeah. I think she does have a version. Yeah. I we can I can [Chair Brian Collamore]: get you out for sure? Okay. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yeah. And, again, it's just a partial, you know, her her best estimate of Right. What's happening right now. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Because my other like, I actually would like to know from every department what they're spending on advertising. I actually would like them to come here and tell me that so we'd have a real flushed out. That'll be [Chair Brian Collamore]: probably take weeks. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I understand that. That's why I want the house to get us a bill so we can do our due diligence. This is why I am all for Michael. [Member Larry Hart]: That's a good We'll all know once this goes into play, we will have a much better understanding. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Yeah. And I'm just trying to figure [Member Larry Hart]: out what that to know that now. I I need to if we have a value of wanting to make sure we're investing in our Vermont journalism, then I you know, I don't feel like I need to prove the issue. I I it's a statement of value, quite frankly, for me, this bill. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Jonathan, you've been quiet? It's tough. Probably because I haven't asked you yet. Is there anything you wanna let us know to maybe be helpful? I know you're gonna add the employment piece. [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: Sure. So Jonathan Gray helps the place to go to council. I the thing I would offer just practically is I have an edited version of an amendment that does exactly that available right now and [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: Actually post it. Yep. So if you wanted to do something today, it is possible, but, obviously, you don't have to. The question I would ask is just, you know, the the bill itself sets up a mechanism, right, for collecting information on the advertising that the state does. It's not clear to me what practical difference is made by people knowing the magnitude of dollars spent. It's certainly like, I I don't know what changes by know like, why you would say yes or no differently based on [Member Alison Clarkson]: Mhmm. That [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: one I heard of [Member Alison Clarkson]: physical impact. It may be significantly more expensive to spend dollars in safe than it is to say buy a Facebook ad. Like, I I think there is. [Member Larry Hart]: Yes. Oh. Yep. [Member Becca White]: But knowing how much we spend now It [Member Larry Hart]: also don't spend a bomb on Facebook ads. We we [Member Becca White]: Yeah. But I think if you agreed that the percentage of that was should be low no matter what the amount of money is. You know? [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: Like, that's another question. I I I that point makes complete sense to me. It's like this could be a costly or advertising mechanism. But if that's the case, I I guess I'm wondering to the point about the percentages are just specifying if you would like to do it different. Like, it's not obvious to me. [Witness Paul Heinz]: I guess I just don't see what difference like, [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: I'll let you guys have a discussion. I've just been confused when I walked out of the other committee too because it's like the bill sets up, the mechanism for collecting that information. It would be great to know what people are spending. [Member Becca White]: Yeah. I guess my point for why I'm okay with not knowing is because that money should be invested in local journalism, in my opinion, even if it does cost more. And knowing if it's and I understand it tangibly, that wouldn't be potentially more money with a larger budget. I think that we are wasting that money. I'm not supposed [Member Alison Clarkson]: to be that. Concept of Yeah. [Member Becca White]: So the amount of money to me, yeah, I think is what I'm saying is, like, it doesn't like, that doesn't factor in to the concept of it because if it is more what you're saying because I think that because what you're I'm trying I really do wanna understand the point. So you're saying that if we had to switch, Facebook will cost more. No. [Member Larry Hart]: No. She's taking me out. What? [Member Alison Clarkson]: We can't post Facebook. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Right. [Member Becca White]: Oh, okay. Because we now have to [Member Alison Clarkson]: use something to speak. The general budget is going to [Member Becca White]: be But there but to oh, you're saying the outreach numbers they need to meet would cost more. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: Yes. Yes. [Member Becca White]: Because okay. So it's not that they're gonna be paying. Because my understanding is they get a budget they get an ad budget, and then they say, okay. We'll spend it on this stuff. [Member Larry Hart]: I know. I'm jealous. [Member Alison Clarkson]: And then they may choose doing less advertising, and how is that going to impact the Department of Health, the message they get? [Member Becca White]: I I do But they will be doing the same amount of their effort. If your advertising costs [Member Alison Clarkson]: more and their budget is the same, they will be able to do less advertising. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Less bang for your buck. [Member Becca White]: Well, maybe. Like, I don't know if that's actually true because, like, Facebook ads don't even if they cost less, it doesn't necessarily mean they're more effective at doing the work of getting eyeballs on it. And I sure as heck don't want more people using Facebook to get government information. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: You [Member Becca White]: know? So it's like even if it seemed less eyeball, like, realistically, I still think that it's just that I [Member Alison Clarkson]: guess, like, yeah, I can say the concept. I am deeply uncomfortable moving it forward without understanding the impacts of some of these other things. [Member Becca White]: Yeah. We we'll never get back from them without [Member Alison Clarkson]: I think we can have a better understanding than one rate through a bill and no witnesses. Yes. [Member Becca White]: I think what I'm trying to say is we had what I heard was we had someone who attempted to do that through FOIA requests, essentially, and was unable to ascertain that information. And we're also hearing that there are multiple departments who don't necessarily openly enthusiastically wanna share that information. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Yeah. So I thought that this we are. [Member Becca White]: And that's what I think this bill does. Because I think if we okay. Yeah. I I [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: hear what you're saying as well. But [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: I I would just also like to say I take your point, and that that makes sense to me that you could have if you had a difference in magnitude, like, a wild difference in magnitude between the two that could have some fiscal impact that determine the difference based on whether you spent seven million versus seventy million dollars worth advertising and the like. Yeah. So let [Chair Brian Collamore]: me see if I'm reading a little bit. I think we're gonna pass on it today, and we'll take some more testimony tomorrow. I'm just hoping that our counterparts finally do get a vote out, and then they could ship us the bill, and then we could really deep dive deeply into this because it'll it'll make sense. So [Member Becca White]: Can I ask? Because I think we at least had one point of agreement that was, like, a change tangibly to the bill. Oh, yeah. We direct to have that amendment that you have around the employment ads be in whatever version we want. [Chair Brian Collamore]: And it's in the house version. [Member Becca White]: Yes. So whatever that change is. [Witness Paul Heinz]: I can I have this and then [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: and then for you guys already? Wow. And it's posted. So we that exists. And it just includes as an additional exemption to the tourism post advertisement, any employment search or job listing. So that's picked up by that exception. So that's ready if there's the ad type to do something. Yeah. I think you [Chair Brian Collamore]: can include that right now if you want. Yep. And then we'll see what close to us tomorrow. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Maybe we can I wanna them gently? [Chair Brian Collamore]: Yeah. I think their their floor is earlier tomorrow, I think. [Member Alison Clarkson]: I believe Yeah. I wonder if there's a bit of my own Friday. I think [Member Larry Hart]: can find that tomorrow. It may be a different nuisance crossover. Okay. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: We're [Chair Brian Collamore]: Ours is eleven thirty. So we won't be meeting until the afternoon. And maybe by then, something will happen. [Member Larry Hart]: Do we Well, you could ask Matt. No. I want you know, if I could just ask Matt and say, if you're if you're gonna take up as eighty four, we'd really appreciate you taking up in the office. [Member Alison Clarkson]: Yeah. Just ask them to send it to us so we can dig into their questions. We have the same questions. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Say that again. [Member Becca White]: And perhaps what are the bills that are coming over from them, and is there anything that's germane to this topic that's coming over? I have no idea. Because that would also help me determine if the there's a heartbeat after if we don't do anything. You know? Because I still want this to have a heartbeat. And so if there's anything germane that that, [Member Larry Hart]: I guess hey. You're you've been on the tool belt. Oh, no. I don't. Yeah. [Member Alison Clarkson]: They send [Witness Lauren Hibbert]: the Germaine related built [Member Alison Clarkson]: to They [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: extended my involvement in DevOps. Yeah. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Pure Bass that. I don't know how That's [Member Alison Clarkson]: not a good sign [Chair Brian Collamore]: for that. I see. And then Oh. For [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: Yeah. Well, I I don't typically I don't typically get pulled into GovOps, so this is [Chair Brian Collamore]: good to have We [Member Alison Clarkson]: don't have I'd like to have you here, Jonathan. I need [Member Larry Hart]: to get you out right here available. Yes. She's [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: I'll be there tomorrow at eight AM. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay, Is there anything else that we wanted to accomplish today? I think [Member Larry Hart]: we moved to the great. [Chair Brian Collamore]: That's tomorrow. We're gonna do that now. [Member Larry Hart]: Oh, okay. [Witness Paul Heinz]: Thank you all so much. I really appreciate it. I will keep you posted if anything changed. [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: I have [Assistant Gillian D'Acierno]: to run [Chair Brian Collamore]: pick up a child, but thanks so much. Okay. Yeah. So [Member Alison Clarkson]: for my [Chair Brian Collamore]: Twenty three, the so called heat fake bill. We'll take that off tomorrow afternoon. I'm planning on passing that out, and I will report it if unless somebody's earnestly hoping they could. That's fine too. [Member Larry Hart]: It's your world. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I think it's great in your world open meeting a lot and your world, new Americans. I think so far, we have yeah. [Member Becca White]: Wizard Teddie skated free without needing any bill reports. [Member Larry Hart]: No. I haven't sent it [Chair Brian Collamore]: to you. Yeah. I mean, just wait. Not until this And [Member Larry Hart]: Windsor County everything. So Winter County can tag team on advertising. [Chair Brian Collamore]: We'll we'll be able to share [Member Larry Hart]: the Because [Chair Brian Collamore]: load as we [Member Larry Hart]: move forward. Because Windsor County has so many rock local weekly newspapers. When I talk about that, I would love to type [Member Alison Clarkson]: up validation. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Thank you, John. Yes. Can you excuse [Member Becca White]: me if I go down [Member Larry Hart]: in our daily world? [Witness Paul Heinz]: Yep. Probably [Member Alison Clarkson]: will. Bridgewater Corners. [Chair Brian Collamore]: Okay. Anything else, committee? [Member Larry Hart]: Vermont standard. [Assistant Jonathan Gray]: We'll call it [Vice Chair Tanya Vyhovsky]: a day. [Member Larry Hart]: Backup. The Vermont standard.

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