SmartTranscript of Senate Agriculture - 2025-04-01 - 11:00 AM

[Chair Russ Ingalls]: Good morning. We're back live again. And as to what I usually do at the start of the week, and I didn't do that, he was in the office at committees. He was on the committee and are on the committee, so we'll just do that before we do it again. Greg, good morning. I'm Ryan Caldwell, representing the Rutland District. And I'm Rob Punggett, representing the banking district. Steve Hefferman at Addison County District. Joe Major, Windsor District. Rough singles, Essex District. And we have three young people, and they're coming to visit us. Who do we got? [Speaker 1 ]: Magdalena Short from Fairfax, Vermont. Kate Dooling also from Fairfax. Adrian and Tomovich also from Fairfax. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Well, we're gonna put you on the spot for a little bit. What's going on today? What are you doing? [Speaker 1 ]: We just took a trip here to, I guess, walk around. We just came from the floor session, and so now we're just sitting. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: In committees? Yep. Yes. [Speaker 1 ]: And then we'll be interviewing representatives later about bills that we've been following. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Oh, nice. Have you been following any agriculture bills? [Speaker 1 ]: No. I'm not I'm not out of the [Chair Russ Ingalls]: store. Not yet? Okay. Well, maybe we'll get you excited about a couple of minutes. Well, welcome, and thank you for coming. It's always nice to have the other people come in and see the process. [Michael O'Grady]: And if [Chair Russ Ingalls]: you ever need anything while you're here, usually Senator Major has candy. And he's the go to guy with that. And Candy and cookies. So but thank you thank you for calling us. How many students? Oh, go ahead. Yeah. How many other students here, Vivian? [Speaker 1 ]: Our class has eleven students, and then we also have exchange students from France. I'm a little bit tour, and now they're exploring the city. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Yeah. Thank you. Any questions for [Speaker 1 ]: Not right now. Okay. Thank you. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Sounds good. We're gonna have Michael O'Grady, deputy chief counsel, talk to us about h four eighty four. Welcome, mister O'Grady. How are you? Good. How are you, hon? Good and very well. Thank you. We had representative Nelson give us a brief rundown on a lot of stuff. I think he did talk about h four eighty four a little bit, but but we have you here. So we are glad to have you. [Michael O'Grady]: Would you like me to put the bill on the screen? We have [Chair Russ Ingalls]: a I'm trying to wanna put it on our screen if we'd like. So we have [Michael O'Grady]: Okay. So I I won't put it up. Currently, the Agency of Agriculture regulates fertilizer and lime products that are sold in the state. And they've been doing that for decades, and they and they do it both as a system to determine what is coming into the state and and as a consumer protection program to ensure that what is sold is actually what is advertised and sold at the right way isn't adultery. It doesn't have anything that's harmful, etcetera. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Can I stop you for one second? Yeah. Our guess. So what's going on here right now is that we have a bill that came up from the house, and they've passed it out. And now they brought it over to the senate. So it came out of the house agriculture, and now it's coming to the senate agriculture. And this is the attorney who's written the bill and knows about the bill, and so he's explaining the bill to our committee as it passed in the house and and how it worked out. [Speaker 1 ]: Okay. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: K. Thank you. Thank you. [Michael O'Grady]: Over the past few years, there have been products that have entered the market that aren't technically fertilizer or lime products, but present the same concerns that that fertilizer and and likewise traditionally have that the state was still sure. And this is what they are, what they are holding themselves out to be, and they're not harmful, and and they are regulated. And so you've been adding those products on a case by case basis, plan amendment, soil amendments, stimulants. And other states have been been addressing the same issue, these these new products that are entering the market and how that they can be regulated. And and you might not know that the different state agencies, they they'd have state associations or associations of themselves that work together to try to address common issues. And one one of those associations is the Association of American Plant Food Control Officials or APCO, is their acronym. Well, APCO saw the need to to find a uniform way to regulate these new products that are entering the market. And in twenty twenty four, the APCO members adopted what's called the Uniform Beneficial Substances Act. And states across the country have been amending their state statutes statutes to come into conformance with the uniform beneficial substances. And that is what age forty eight, forty eight four would do. In Vermont, it would amend the current chapter on fertilizer and Lyme to include regulation of beneficial substances. The there is there are substantive changes related to labeling, to statements on a beneficial substance label, ingredients, requirements of that nature. But there are just a lot of conforming amendments and changing the the series of terms, plant amendments, plant stimulants, and soil amendments and replacing that with the term beneficial substance. When I walk through, I'm just gonna say there's a conforming change, there's a conforming change instead of saying having to say, just replaces those three with one. So with that said, you'll see page one, point four, section one, amending that fertilizer and lawn chapter, and remaining the benefit fertilizer and lawn with beneficial substances chapter. You will see on page two, there is a definition of beneficial substance. It's any substance or compound other than primary, secondary, and plant nutrients, fertilizers, and excluding pesticides that can be demonstrated to be beneficial to one or more species of plant soil or media. It includes plan amendments, plants, biostimulants, plant inoculants, which are new terms, added according to the Aptico uniform law, soil amendments, and soil inoculants, which is another new term being added under the Uniform Law. And other chemical or biological substances beneficial to plants or they're growing around. So that's last phrase is important so you don't need to come back every year when there's a new product, a new category that reaches the market. So the agency is gonna have this authority to determine whether or not products that reach the market are beneficial substances and need to be regulated under the chapter. You'll see on page two the definition of brand and conforming change, same change conforming change in the the definition distribute in distributor. Let's look at definition of fertilizer on page three to see how it's distinguished from soil amendments and plant amendments. It's any substance containing one or more recognized plant nutrients that is used for its plant nutrient content, and that is designed for use for clean co value in promoting bank growth or health except unprocessed animal or vegetable universe and other products exempted by We might [Chair Russ Ingalls]: have a different version of bill is introduced. To them. Yeah. Let's see. It's online. If you guys go to the web page, it's online. Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell me too, Michael, while we're looking for [Speaker 3 ]: that, what is a plant inoculant? I think I'd help. But [Michael O'Grady]: So so a plant inoculant is defined. It is on page six [Chair Russ Ingalls]: of the asp Oh, okay. [Michael O'Grady]: It has microorganisms in it Yeah. As opposed to just nutrients. And those microorganisms are applied to the plant or the soil for the purpose of enhancing the availability of uptake of plant nutrients. So it it has biological organisms in it that are separate from the plant nutrients. [Speaker 3 ]: So when a human being gets inoculated, we think of vaccines and stuff like that. [Michael O'Grady]: You have you have an organism that's put into you. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Yeah. Is and this is similar. Okay. Thank you. [Michael O'Grady]: So I guess I'm still working off of the aspads diversion. So I think if you go to page five of the as pass, you'll see that there are conforming changes in the definition of label, definition labeling, definition of official sample. And then you come Because we're going down through this. I'm just looking at [Chair Russ Ingalls]: is this Phil corralling in a lot of these products into and that's what it's doing? Yes. Were they getting kind of broad and just saying, hey. [Michael O'Grady]: We're gonna bring you into your own category. So so you'll see in in a minute that any of these products in order to be sold in the state have to register and have to be approved by the agency for sale in the state and then have to meet all the requirements for labeling, ingredients, composition, adulteration, etcetera. And so it it's bringing them it really is and the agency is the one that that characterizes it as a consumer protection chapter to ensure that the people are getting the products that are marketed to them in a way that's that's not fraudulent. I don't know if representative Nelson used the term that he was calling them and Who's that? Yes. And so the the [Chair Russ Ingalls]: That did slip out. [Michael O'Grady]: This is I do assure that that these products really aren't that. Right. And that they do meet their their asserted benefits. And so that's that's what the the program is about. And, you know, and it it happens in in other parts. It happens in commercial feed too because commercial feed, you have the same new products like cake and chicken and and, you know, your your your cow hair. It's there's all these different products that are entering the market, and the agency has to ensure that they're not just being sold to to generate money, but they actually have a benefit. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Well, I'm kinda looking at this, but even going further back. Uncle Ben's elixirs that, well, we got all and I mean, all kinds of different little bottles of this and that, and then okay. But now we're gonna let this bring this in and make sure it works. Right. [Michael O'Grady]: And there there are products that you probably seen out there for years, like BioChar. Right? And, like, BioChar is, depending on who you talk to, worthless or the best thing in the world. Right. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: And And you would have the same thing with it. [Michael O'Grady]: Yeah. You have to register Biochar to to be used or its assert purposes. Yeah. So page six, line seven, there's that definition of plant by a stimulant. When you added this definition a couple of years ago, there was some acknowledgment that you didn't really know how to define it. And so the the the definition was was developed with the agency. But now that ABCO has has addressed the issue, these are changes being being made to conform with the ABCO uniform law. So it's a substance microorganism or mixture that when applied to seeds, plants, or the rhizosphere, soil, or other growth media acts as important plants and natural nutrition processes independently of the biostimulants nutrient content. So something else besides the nutrient content is leading to the to the, growth or support of those. Then you'll see that definition of plant inoculant. As senator Kyle was asking, microorganisms apply to the plant or soil for the purpose of enhancing availability of the plant. Definition of product is the conforming change. Definition of registering the person who has to register all these products every year. The conforming change, soil amendment. This is to follow the APCO definition. We were really, really close to the APCO definition. We we just had a reference to biostimulant that APCO did not, and so it's being struck to maintain performative with the active wound law. And then seeing page eight, the soil inoculating definition, microbial product that is applied to colonize the soil benefit to soil chemistry by biology or structure. Again, that's conforming with ATCO. Use is the conforming change in the term, and that's your definitions. But then you come to the the key regulatory tool for the agency for these products. It's the registration. Each brand or breed or formula or fertilizer, beneficial substance, or shall be registered, and the name of the person whose name appear appears upon the label before being distributed in the state. It has to be registered annually. And so there there is some stability for you to have the same grade of product, and that that product can be just registered once. But when you start having different brands on it, then it has to be registered. It's an eighty five dollar a year registration fee per product. That fee is pushed into a special fund that is used by the agency to run this program, the the soil amendment fertilizer program, and the feed and seed program. The the the registration fees for both programs count to the same special fund from those programs. And we'll talk [Chair Russ Ingalls]: a bit about that. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're gonna ask the same questions. What's the other state's charge on this? Are you aware of far as the fees? It's it's [Michael O'Grady]: a little bit all over the map. This was last amended since a couple of years ago, and we weren't the highest, but we were on the higher end. I would have to go back and see K. What what the other states are charging. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: And as far as all these products, but I think rep Nelson had told us that he thought there might [Michael O'Grady]: be about four thousand. That's that's what we estimate for the new. Yeah. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: And of all those products, are they are they verified with testing in some way? [Michael O'Grady]: Well, you're gonna come and see what they have to do in order to do that Yep. For their composition label. They have to to have they might be required to provide efficacy data to show that they are actually capable of what they claim to do. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: That the that that money is on them to do that It's more [Michael O'Grady]: If they're going to provide the data, yes. Sure. Yes. Yep. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: And I would say who's doing that testing. [Michael O'Grady]: It's So it's it's both. So when prior to to submission or registration of the product or the brand, the manufacturer, the registrar has to basically determine what's in the product, ingredients, and so they're gonna be doing that. But the agency of AG also has regulatory authority to do sampling and testing underneath this program to ensure that everything that is sold is is is actually what is being marketed as. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: So is it federally, or are are you saying The state state. So state so they have to go to each state? [Michael O'Grady]: They have to go to each state and register their product. Just like they had to do for pesticides and animal food, feed, they have to register all of their products individually in every state. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: And they can bring their test results with them? [Michael O'Grady]: Yes. Yeah. Would be here. Yeah. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: So we're headed to the lab tomorrow in Randall. It would be if they if they were to ask for testing on that? Is it quite possible that some testing would have been done there for some of these products? [Michael O'Grady]: If they wanted to do a sample of the product, that's that's where they would do it unless what they're sampling for is beyond the capacity of the lab, and then they would have to send it to to another lab. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: K. Thank you. Yes. Could we amend that to a hundred dollars? [Michael O'Grady]: You you you could do that? That's within your authority. Oh. And the the bill is gonna go to finance anyway because it's not you're changing the fee. You're changing the categories of products that are gonna subject to the fee. So, theoretically, you are expanding the revenue to the states, and that would it went to ways and means in in the house. I expect it to go to finance. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Well, after talking with the representative, the the the hundred dollars might be a more next round number that you got. [Michael O'Grady]: That that that is you are the you are the piece setting body, the the general sense [Chair Russ Ingalls]: So do I move that to the to the committee and go on whatever? How's that work? I'd just like to hear if you could even if you didn't do it, Michael, just to see where we the other states are as well. If we could get get some information on that. [Michael O'Grady]: It won't get hard to do that. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Okay. Then we can certainly. Yeah. Yeah. Particularly doing Yes. Yes. When the last time it was great. Yeah. So let's get it It was last year. Let's I'm not opposed to what you're talking about, but let's be able to verify why we would do that. And that's that's all that I wanna do. I wanna be able to I wanna be able to justify it. That's fair. So [Michael O'Grady]: So for going back into the substance of the bill on page nine, line six through eleven, you'll see when the beneficial substance is referring to a specific formulation, they they may refer to the same specific formulation. But once they they start having different brands, it has to register, as a different product. You'll see the plate at the bottom of page nine, lining products have have always had a lower registration fee, And so they have a fifty dollar registration fee as opposed to fifty eighty five for all other at the page ten, you'll see the the reference to the deposit of those fees and the special fund that's used to run this program. Fifty percent. Page ten, you'll see line six, the the requirements for labels. This is on page eleven. You'll see start to see some of the more substantive requirements of this bill where or beneficial substances, they have to have a statement identifying the purpose of the product. They have to have a statement of the composition showing the amount of each ingredient, which is the agent and the product primarily responsible for the intended effects using the file and format that has to show all of this information on page twelve, the name of the beneficial substance, the genus and species of microorganism that have to, for products that contain microorganisms, they also have to include the expiration date for use and storage conditions so the microorganisms don't die or are used after they would have died. And then on page twelve, line sixteen through nineteen, I can't remember which member asked this question, but the agency may require efficacy data to support beneficial substance ingredient claims if the ingredient is not presently defined by ATCO's publication for the particular claim. So if if someone's making a claim that's not supported by ATCO's documentation, then the agency can ask for additional advocacy data. On page thirteen, line one, you'll see another fee. There's tonnage fees. These are generally on fertilizer. The amount of fee, the amount of fertilizer that's moved is subject to, a hundred and fifty dollar minimum tonnage fee and a fifty cents per ton of ag fertilizer and thirty dollar per ton of non ag fertilizer. The nonag fertilizer fees, ton of fees are placed in an AgriPOPO special water quality fund to help the agency pay for the cost of that. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Can you please explain that again, Michael? Sure. Paid thirteen lines. One, two, three. Yep. Four is where I've got the hundred and [Michael O'Grady]: fifty dollar minimum on HPI. I couldn't even say that. So often fertilizer is not sold in packages. It's sold loose as as tonic funds or or bucket loads. And so it is it is subject to a fee when it's it's distributed into the state as loose fertilizer ag or not. So that's where the fee comes in here. Instead of it being on the product, it's it's on the on the tonnage that is distributed to to the state. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: So is that above and beyond what the cost of the fertilizer would be? I'm I'm It can be. Yes. Can be. [Michael O'Grady]: It's what it's what the distributors are going to pay for what they what they distribute and and these these fertilizer [Chair Russ Ingalls]: To the farm. Right? Pardon? To the farmer to to to the Yes. Earth tank. And it's at a hundred and fifty dollars minimum tonnage fee. So if it's a hundred dollars ton, now it's two fifty a ton. Am I That's where I was starting to look at Michael Michael. It is it's exactly what the customer happened to just add. From the product if the product is a hundred dollars, it cost a let's just add a hundred and fifty dollar to that to that price. Minimum tonnage fee, which is that is it per on that? It's it's per your delivery. Okay. Okay. [Michael O'Grady]: It's per the delivery of what you receive. It's not it's it's not Per ton. Per ton. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Right. Just the wording's a little [Michael O'Grady]: bit mixed. Yeah. I I agree. I agree. So you're gonna pay a hundred and fifty dollars minimum, and then you're gonna pay fifty cents per tonne to Okay. For a visor. Okay. Okay. And thirty dollars per non ag because that's they they generally wanna discourage its use in this form, but it's still used for for uses such as golf courses and other similar types of greenery. And the agency can talk to you best about how they do tonnage feeds. It's, you know, it's it's something that they've done this way for a long time. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Well, look, we might wanna on this bill, we might wanna just read the agency, and there there will be a few questions that we have to ask. There could [Speaker 1 ]: be an answer. Thank you. [Michael O'Grady]: So moving out of the label, you'll see in in the tonnage piece, you'll see inspection and sampling authority for purposes of enforcing the chapter. This this state can require sampling, and they may enter into a liquor private premises. They can inspect. They can sample and analyze any fertilizer beneficial substance or line. That they can monitor. Page sixteen, moving out of the inspection and sampling, there's the misbranding. The changes here, largely the conforming change, but they have the ability to bring enforcement for misbranding a product. It's distributed in a false or misleading way. It's it's a great day to distribute under the name of another fertilizer product that contains some substantiated claims. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Okay. [Michael O'Grady]: Similarly, on page seventeen line three, they have the ability to prohibit the distribution of an adulterated product. One of the things that's being changed here in response to the Aptico unicorn law is defining deleterious to market ingredients that are harmful, not just the beneficial plant, like, such as the animals, humans, and aquatic waste, soil, or water as well. So if the product is somehow contaminated, somehow there's an ingredient that is going to be harmful to soil or water or humans, it can also be deemed to be adulterated as. Moving on to page eighteen, line three. The agency publishes, on an annual basis consumer information regarding the use of non agri or full term turf or fertilizer, and beneficial substances. They provide this information to the public. They give results of analysis based on official samples of fertilizer, beneficial substances online. They consult with UVM and other interested parties to produce information for distribution to the general public regarding the issues that fertilizer or overfertilization might cause. Age nineteen, nine sixteen. They have rulemaking authority. It's not changing. Page twenty, line one. They have short weight authority if the product does not have the amount of product that is labeled or if they can enforce against that registrant that distributor. Page twenty of line sixteen, they can cancel the registration of any of the products that are subject to registration. Twenty one line three, they can keep paying the fertilizer beneficial substance. For aligning material, they can withdraw from distribution for any violation of the chapter. They can condemn it. Page twenty one, line eighteen, and they can actually order and see here and just instructions. Page twenty two. See that they can order that it can dispose of in any manner consistent with the quality of the fertilizer, beneficial substance, and the line. And then on page twenty two, like eighteen, fertilizer dealers, fertilizer manufacturers, they they they transfer material between them. The chapter shall not be construed to restrict or impale pair sales or exchanges of fertilizers or beneficial substances, to each other by an orders, manufacturers, or manipulators who mix fertilizer materials. That's not subject to the registration fee or the tonnage fees when they're making the fertilizer beneficial substances. There's administrative penalty authority. This is being amended to incorporate the the changes to beneficial substances, including the ingredients and information that is now part of the beneficial substance label and the adult duration changes. That's possible. And that's really the bill. It goes into effect July one twenty twenty five. Questions? [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Well, I think so. Thanks for my call. Mhmm. As always, well done. Thank you. You make a little bit exciting, so thank you. [Michael O'Grady]: Not Evan's lap, so [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Yeah. Excited. Well, they were yawning a little bit. I don't know, Michael. You might have to up your game. [Michael O'Grady]: I have I have a voice so you can if you will see. I it's not the it's not the most Yeah. Popular culture issue. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: But I'm glad that they do want it because I can tell you, you know, the word snake oil comes to mind sometimes with all of this and, you know but it's funny. It's exactly kind of what Brett Nelson said and as what you kinda alluded to. There's some people that would yeah. There's a there's some groups of people that will take all these products and they'll say, I'm blah blah. I'll tell you, you can't do you can't do anything in life. You don't use this product, and the other, you know, farmer down the road will say, ah. So it is all what it is. So to your knowledge, was there anyone that testified in [Speaker 3 ]: the house that was against the VILC? [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Yeah. I I think [Michael O'Grady]: you should have focused on the back of [Chair Russ Ingalls]: the exchange. It gives consideration to to just consider. I mean, that's detail. [Michael O'Grady]: Yeah. I appreciate We we try to be consistent with the. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: They get everybody getting twenty dollars and they [Michael O'Grady]: say that word fast three times. Well, I I knew that representative Nelson, if if he would say that on the floor, that he would get some laughs. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: I was pretty yeah. [Michael O'Grady]: I was wondering if that [Chair Russ Ingalls]: was a joke, but it's actually that's it's the actual name. He struggled with [Michael O'Grady]: the fire. But it definitely, like, warmed the crowd up when yeah. That's that's the acronym he would be using. Yeah. So Well, thank you. Thank you. Have a good day. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Thank you. Yep. You as well. Just trying to go through [Michael O'Grady]: a committee as far as anything. I will send you some registration fee information Yeah. Probably by noon. [Chair Russ Ingalls]: Awesome. Thank you. Just discussions as far as where I had with senator Perchlick as far as trying to chase down our monies and where we wanna be. And I didn't mean to be rough on the food people, but a seventy five percent increase coming into a committee on a tough year is to me just you know, I know we're on camera, and it's just that's a lot of money. It's a lot it's a it's a lot of money. And it's sometimes when you ask for too much, it's hard to get excited about Yeah. Even the basic amount of funding that's where it's at. So I I apologize to anyone that might take an offense to that, but the year could be asking for seventy five percent more than no matter what the what it is. So and then that, we're gonna have the agency in on the building. Yeah. Thursday. We'll have them in on Thursday. We're on the road tomorrow for a few field trips. That should be fun. And unless you're

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SmartTranscript of Senate Agriculture - 2025-04-01 - 11:00 AM

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