SmartTranscript of House Government Operations-2025-02-18-1:05PM

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[Chair Matthew Birong]: Alright. Good afternoon, everyone. Government operations military affairs. Today is Tuesday, February eighteenth. We're doing a little bit more work on our OPR bill, and we were asked we have some folks in from National Association of Social Workers. We're trying to figure out, get a little bit more detail. It's just sort of, like, an update with the committee. Representative Hango and myself are trying to get, like, a little bit of feedback on some of these fee increases in and around just a general fee increase as opposed to something we use for disciplinary action and a couple of other components to get an understanding of how palatable that is to other places around complex. [Vice Chair Lisa Hango]: So with that, [Chair Matthew Birong]: Lynn, how are you? [Witness Lynn Stanley]: I'm doing well. Thank you. [Chair Matthew Birong]: Good. Good. Good. Can you give that a little thank you. Gotta bump up the volume here real quick. Yeah. So we are all welcome. Feel free to introduce yourself. [Witness Lynn Stanley]: Well, my thanks to the committee for hearing my testimony. For the record, my name is Lynn Carrier Stanley. I am a social worker, and I am the executive director of the National Association of Social Workers Vermont chapter. I'm also the executive director for the New Hampshire chapter. So I'm pleased to bring you today two amendments to OPR's bill for your consideration. They include increasing title protection for social workers and the elimination of some confusing language in the statute concerning psychotherapy, which we find is creating an unnecessary barrier to social worker licensure in the hiring of new professionals. So I'm hoping that you have the written testimony there. And you can see that there are two places where Vermont already has protective title language for social workers. First, you can't call yourself a licensed social worker unless you are actually a licensed social worker by OPR. Also, state agency social workers. State agencies cannot use the job title of social worker for any position unless they are going to hire somebody who is actually a social worker. What we are asking for is for this to be extended to not only state agencies but private agencies. Because while these protections are there for licensed social workers, they don't extend to social workers who have a bachelor's or a master's degree, nor do they extend to private entities who employ people who they have the job title for social worker. Social work is a prescribed field of study. It is a profession. It has its own mission, values, and code of ethics. And while social workers may have and utilize many skills that are obtained and possessed by other professions, it is its own field of study that includes work at micro or clinical meso and macro levels. We don't allow people who haven't gone to school to be nurses, doctors, lawyers, barbers to call themselves that unless they unless they have that that educational background. And to not fully have these protections diminishes the education experience and unique perspective of the social work profession. And we know just by doing seeing job postings, whether on Indeed or in on any other job posting site, that there are a number of positions in Vermont that they call the job title social worker. But when you look at the requirements, you could have, let's say, your master's degree in social work, but you could also have a number of other degrees. We're not asking for organizations to hire only social workers. We're just asking that the job title be called something else if they're not going to hire a social worker. And in the written testimony, you can see where we have added some language in what would then be d, a state agency or private entity. Shall not use or permit the use of title social worker other than in relation to an employee holding a bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree from a accredited school or program and change that to a social work program accredited by the Council of Social Work Education. And then looking at the the second amendment that we are requesting is around the term psychotherapy. In statute, there's a pretty broad definition of psychotherapy that I would argue could actually be it is equivalent to clinical social work. The challenge with the way that the statute reads is that it seems like you there has to be the term psychotherapy in the job description for it to count for new social workers who are looking to become licensed. So if the job description does not include psychotherapy, then they're not providing supervision so so that social worker or that new social worker can work towards licensure. So social work can include psychotherapy, but it's not just psychotherapy. Social workers use a variety of modalities in numerous settings. It's not necessarily one on one therapy as people traditionally would think of therapy. It's a broad social work is a broad profession, and social workers are in a number of clinical positions in a number of job descriptions. When that piece in the statute seems to be limiting the number of people, number of social workers who can get licensed that in that two year period of supervision. It also limits organizations from being able to hire new social workers who are looking to get licensed. If they say, oh, the job description doesn't have psychotherapy in it, thus, we cannot provide clinical supervision towards your licensure. And this is just a minor change to the statute, remove the ambiguity and the barrier to social workers taking positions that don't have the term psychotherapy within the job description. And that this would this would be able to hold a greater number of potential positions as qualified settings after graduation. Thank you for hearing my testimony, and I'm very happy to answer any questions that you might have. [Chair Matthew Birong]: I guess my first question for you is have any of these and I'm sorry if you might have stated this already as you're speaking. The volume's a little spotty today. Have you discussed any of this with secretary of state's office about recommended language? [Witness Gail Zastanach]: That's fine. [Chair Matthew Birong]: Have you has any of this language been run by the secretary of state's office as a proposal? Changes? Yes. From the. For the record, please identify yourself. [Witness Gail Zastanach]: Gail's asked on behalf of NASW on the live voice for the first amendment. I believe for the first amendment, there is a bill for the first amendment that's in the works, and I believe that language has been run by OPR. [Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. I [Witness Gail Zastanach]: don't know what their their response is, but but I believe legislative council reached out to OPR with the amendment number one. Okay. Amendment number two, I reached out to OPR to ask them about the issue, but I have not heard back. So that was yeah. [Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. And and [Witness Gail Zastanach]: can I add just one thing about the second amendment? In that provision of the statute, it just mentions the agency of human services. So one would think that that only applies to jobs if through the agency of human services. However, we have been told in the community that it has been interpreted as requiring the word psychotherapy in other settings as well, not just settings as well, not just the agency of human services. So there's no I have not seen a statute that applies to other settings, but we're asking that it be removed those words related to psychotherapy in the job description be removed from this section. [Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. I have to talk to our friends and secretary of states. I was this is we are swimming in a brand new pool of subject matter for me right now. So [Witness Gail Zastanach]: I'll continue to reach out to that as well. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. [Chair Matthew Birong]: I see here from him. Okay. Alright. So to this sorry. I'm just looking at the language again real quick on the first suggestion amendment. Nope. Brevalent are people I I don't wanna use the word mischaracterizing, but using this this terminology, well, trying to find in the advertising space for employment, do you have an idea how prevalent it is? Like, have there been any complaints filed about people, like, getting hired in a role and then not having the appropriate licensure? Like, have there been any, like, punitive actions that have moved forward? [Witness Lynn Stanley]: I I don't thank you for the question. I don't believe any action has moved forward. We we have a a number of board members who are constantly looking because this is this is a a point of contention about whether or not about jobs that are called social worker. It's all it's in a number of different fields where the job posting is for a social worker and then the job title is social worker. Schools, hospitals, nursing homes, other other places of work. But when you look at the job requirements, it's not just social workers who they will hire, which is fine. We're not saying that they need to hire a social worker. We would just like the job title to be something other than social worker because if you're calling yourself a social worker, you should actually be have gone to school to be a social worker. [Speaker 4 ]: Thank you for that. So if a job posting says social worker as the title, you're saying that it should only be individuals who hold a degree in social work who fill those job descriptions so that it it's gonna be incumbent upon the employer to change the job title. Yes. Just Not to rather to not be allowed to use that job title, actually, unless that's who they're looking for is a trained and accredited social worker. [Witness Lynn Stanley]: Correct. Thank you. There's any number of things they could call the position other than social worker. [Chair Matthew Birong]: And what would your I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Representative. [Vice Chair Lisa Hango]: I have a just a question about the psychotherapy term. And if you could maybe restate that in other words. I'm not understanding what the what the issue is. [Witness Lynn Stanley]: The issue is that there's a definition of psychotherapy, which is very broad. However, there are some jobs let me back up. The the definition that is in statute for psychotherapy is broad. However, oftentimes, when people think of psychotherapy, they think of clinical therapy. One on one, in an office, closed door, fifty minutes, bill it to insurance. However, psychotherapy include in in this definition, includes so much more than that. And social workers do lots of clinical work that may not be traditional one on one therapy. It could be out in the community. It could be school social work. It could be hospital social work. All of that is clinical social work that under this definition of psychotherapy fits. However, it may not be in that social worker's job description with the word psychotherapy. And the the ambiguity of the statute plus based on past guidance, like, in years past that that has been given, it's just been carpet. No. If if the if the term psychotherapy is not in the job description, then that new social worker who is working towards licensure, it doesn't count. Those two years of supervision don't count towards your licensure. You would need to have a position that says psychotherapy somewhere in the job description Represent in order for them to be able to work towards their license. Does that answer your question? [Vice Chair Lisa Hango]: I think maybe well, my I'm trying to locate where the issue is, I guess, for and I'm not sure if it's in the job description or it's the person applying for the job or if it's the advertising for the job where the ambiguity is happening. [Witness Lynn Stanley]: The ambiguity is that the the way that the statute is being interpreted is that if the job description doesn't have the word psychotherapy in it as a job responsibility, then the new social worker cannot use that place of employment or that job to get their license. By taking out that one line, it removes that ambiguity. People are even if it isn't in the job description, all of the components within the definition listed in statute for psychotherapy are things that the new social worker would be doing within their job responsibilities. [Speaker 5 ]: Hi. I'm wondering if you if any of this feeds into the difference between having an MSW and an LCSW? Because I thought with an LCSW, you have to get, like, additional licensure, additional experience to practice things like psychotherapy. Could you just explain to us if that feeds into this? [Witness Lynn Stanley]: Thank you for the question. Vermont only has one licensure here for social workers. Oh, excuse me. There is the LMSW, but that's not a clinical license. The only clinical license is the LICSW, licensed independent clinical social worker. So that person needs to have a master's degree in social work from an accredited social work program and two years post graduation supervision under somebody who is licensed. They need to sit for the ASWB clinical exam and then submit their application to become an LICSW. However, if [Witness Gail Zastanach]: the [Witness Lynn Stanley]: if the organization the agency where the social worker is doing their two years thinks that, oh, I we can't provide supervision towards licensure because there isn't psychotherapy within the job description, then they won't then they wouldn't sign off on supervision hours or the licensure application. [Witness Gail Zastanach]: K. [Chair Matthew Birong]: K, Lance. So, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna follow-up with the secretary of state's office just to get their opinion on those recommendations As far as definitions and licenses within OVR's purview, this is a bucket that I haven't really dove into yet. So I definitely need to immerse myself more in some education. But I appreciate the time, and we'll keep keep communication as follow ups are done as per our earlier conversation in the gallery. Any other last call on questions? Anyone? Anyone? Any no? Alright. Well, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it. [Witness Lynn Stanley]: Thank you very much. [Chair Matthew Birong]: Now to the need of the bill itself on the OPR bill, we are let me know if folks have because I do wanna try and get this framed in for movement once we find out a little bit of a more of a read on some of the proposals around the money pieces, and we'd like to see this thing try and get out of here for its next stop sooner than later. Just because we have a tremendous workload coming in, I wanna start sharing the deck of a few things in slow lunchtime conversation we had about a few other bills. So I guess if there's no other direct question right now, we have the criminal justice council coming in at two o'clock for their budget proposal for us. So, Autumn, if you wanna take us offline, we can do a little bit of work on the bills that we are trying to fine tune. Thank you for
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