SmartTranscript of House Energy and Digital Infrastructure 2025-02-26 2:30pm

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[Chair Kathleen James]: My coffee? [Member Bram Kleppner]: We are live. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. Welcome, everybody, to House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. It's Wednesday, February twenty sixth. And we are here briefly with Secretary Moore, who will introduce herself for the record in a sec. I'm Kathleen James from the Bennington four district. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Scott Campbell from St. John's story. Richard Bailey, olive oil too. Chris Mara, Windham, Windsor Bennington. Michael, Southworth, Caledonia too. Christopher Howland, Robin Ford. [Chair Kathleen James]: Derek Torrey, Washington too. [Member Bram Kleppner]: Graham Kleppner, two ten thirteen, Burlington. [Chair Kathleen James]: Laurel? Representative Sebelio is on not well. [Ranking Member Laura Sibilia]: Representative Sebelia Windham too. [Chair Kathleen James]: Great. Alright. Secretary Moore, thanks for joining us on short notice. My pleasure. For the record, you are. [Secretary Julie Moore]: I am Julie Horn, the secretary of natural resources, and thank you for squeezing me in this afternoon. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. Thanks for agreeing. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Sure. Go ahead. [Secretary Julie Moore]: So I had shared with representative James and representative Sebelia this morning sort of an an alternate set of potential indicators that you might consider in h twenty five. If it's alright, I'd like to share my screen and can sort of walk you through what that alternate build text would look like. So, hopefully, you can see that now on your screen? [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Yes. [Chair Kathleen James]: Alright. Yep. Great. [Secretary Julie Moore]: So similar to the the construct that was contained in in h one twenty five, there would be a a report back recognizing we will do our best to gather this information, we are the the indicators I will show you are all based on datasets that we believe to be available with with one exception that we are are still digging into, but to try to give that sense of indicators relevant to the clean energy transition in Vermont and the impact it may be having on Vermonters. So what we are proposing is a numb a combination of of sort of leading and lagging indicators, as well as a bit of trend data, looking at five year trends over time, recognizing that some of the datasets are noisy and that they are well, they they tack and tie with weather, particularly when we're looking at at heating fuel sales and some of the the elements around electrice electricity utilization. If we have a a particularly cold winter, you know, it may mask otherwise what could be a a hopefully steady downward trend. But looking at electric rates, distributed solar, including what has been installed and is is on the ground as well as applications that are, going through the the certificate of public good process, looking at heating fuel sales, looking at home, weatherization trends and trying to break out the homes receiving that service by income, looking at firms and workers in thermal sector trades over time, recognizing that workforce challenges, are a key limiting factor on the amount of this work we're able to undertake. Tracking transportation fuel sales, again, five years of data feels important there. Looking at our progress towards meeting the electric vehicle infrastruct charging infrastructure goals that are established in the comprehensive energy plan and, echoed in the climate action plan. Looking at vehicle registrations, across the different weight classes in terms of how many EVs and how many gas vehicles are being registered. And then that ninth one is the one that that I still working to confirm we have the data to support, but I feel it's important to have some broad economic indicator. One I've seen in use in other jurisdictions is is fossil fuel consumption per unit of economic output, but just wanna make sure that that is something we could actually commit to providing and recognizing representative James some of the dialogue we had when I was in committee that, you know, we we can make a good faith effort at this for the coming year and then refine it as needed, but just flagging generally that that broad economic indicator, I think, feels important. [Chair Kathleen James]: Oh, great. I think we have some questions. Representative Kleffner? [Member Bram Kleppner]: So two questions, secretary Moore. The point number four homes weatherized by incomplete file, that will only capture homes that are weatherized using state programs. Is that correct? Someone who does their own work on their own house won't show up in that data? [Secretary Julie Moore]: Correct. Someone who receives no incentive payments would not be reflected in that data. [Member Bram Kleppner]: And a question about number nine. Is the notion there that we've in a in an expanding economy, for instance, we might see increased fossil fuel use, but at the same time, that use isn't going up as quickly as economic growth, which says we're getting more efficient with our fossil fuel? [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Correct. [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yes. Exactly. And and we see we there's sort of a a parallel I was trying to strike with heating fuel sales where there is an ability to look at heating degree days in a particular year to understand how cold it was and then be able to make a comparison between the trend we're see the gross trend we're seeing in heating fuel sales and what we would expect to see based on the number of heating degree days. So it's it's it's trying to create a parallel construct there. Admittedly, I'm I'm a little outside my area of expertise, and this is a place where I've phoned some friends in the the commerce and labor departments to try and get a little better handle on what might be possible. [Member Bram Kleppner]: Great. Thank you. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yes. Rick Campbell. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Secretary, this is very helpful. Very, very helpful. Thank you. One of the things that we've been talking about is is how how what what this report really wants to do. We were looking for a way to assess trends over over time. So and we weren't clear in the initial graphs whether this was an annual report or or or looking back five year. So I I think what we want both, actually. We were what we're trying to get at is an annual report, but starting with with the previous five years' worth of data. Is that something that exactly could do? Yeah. [Secretary Julie Moore]: I mean, I I I think that is what we also believe makes the the most sense and so that those five year trends would be updated annually in order to be able to have some sense of progress that's being made over time. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Well, suppose we just added another year each. So we start with the first report would be for previous five years, so then we just keep adding an annual report to that. So over time, we could see as many years of data as as as we as we accumulate. Does that does that seem [Secretary Julie Moore]: I I think that can be made to work if if you I don't know why you would've necessarily, but if you had the opportunity to look at our clean water performance report, we do exactly that. We had a a starting dataset and then have continued to add the most recent year of data, but we continue to display all of the data that we have collected in that instance since, I think, twenty sixteen. At at some point, I think those early years maybe will fall off of graphs because they'll become less meaningful and, frankly, just shrink what you're able to see in the most recent data. But certainly, for a period of time, that that approach makes makes an a a significant amount of sense. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Great. Okay. Is that the clean water report? [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yeah. I can I can send to to Jack the a link to the clean water performance report? Just also as a point of reference, we are are just at the sort of in the middle, the messy middle of work on a monitoring and assessing progress tool, which is one of the requirements of the Global Warming Solutions Act with a and we'll be recommending sort of a a set of indicators to track sort of a theme and variation on this. We have a consultant that that's doing some initial work in that space and and can provide an update on [Ranking Member Laura Sibilia]: that, frankly, as part of the report we bring back to [Secretary Julie Moore]: you next December. Okay. Report we bring back to you next December. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Okay. Terrific. So then one of the thing we're trying to get at is something around the geo geographical location of these data points. And somebody along the line mentioned that perhaps we can get it by county so that we're not, you know, trying to parse it too too finely, but we would still have some sense of geographical distribution. Does that seem possible? [Secretary Julie Moore]: I'm not sure that all of these datasets lend themselves to that or that we're we're tracking them with that level of granularity, but can can certainly go go back to the kind of the raw data that we believe exists and see which of these may be able to lend themselves to that approach if that would be of interest. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Okay. Yeah. And I I had some others in, more detailed things, but I'll see if anybody else has questions first. [Chair Kathleen James]: High level. So we we walked through our latest draft just a little bit ago and then tried to kind of sync it up with your with your letter and with your thoughts, secretary Moore. And so just some things I flagged were this thought about, by region, you know, impact by region that wherever possible. I think we, a a driving goal of this is is to try to see I don't know where you went. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Laura's up there. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yep. I see Laura's hand. But, anyway [Secretary Julie Moore]: Oh, I I can stop sharing my screen. I did have one more slide. [Chair Kathleen James]: That's fine. Go ahead. [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yeah. Which is just other considerations. I I think there there's some other kind of contextual pieces that probably would be helpful at least in this initial report. And then maybe next session could talk about what a what an annual reporting requirement would look like. But some feedback to you all in terms of of data gaps that that we have discovered as we've gone about this work, What are the existing reports and requirements that are we're relying on to to make sure that they they remain on the book, so to speak? Clearly, the Global Warming Solutions Act places emphasis on equity and just transition. And so having indicators that look at the benefits and burdens of the clean energy transitioning can come back with some some recommendations in that space. But the idea being that at at least this initial report would both start to to do the analysis of those initial that initial set of indicators and then come back with recommendations around modifications, changes, additions that we would propose to make going forward. [Chair Kathleen James]: Great. Oh, great. Okay. Representative Sebelia. [Ranking Member Laura Sibilia]: Yes. Hi. I'm gonna take my turn flogging the horse. But since I sponsored this bill, my intent with this bill is to understand specific places in Vermont that may be we know that everyone is not experiencing the costs associated with the energy transition the same. We know that we have a shared goal of probably every member of the legislature and the administration on affordability. But if we are only looking at macro trends and not looking at some of the unique regional issues, for instance, we know that we have, one utility that has significantly higher rates and is significantly, more burdened in terms of repairs and climate change and has significantly more uptake in terms of renewables. I don't know if they are losing access to, also, to gas stations or so so trying to I noted that the data that you sent, which I think is really great, but I don't think any of it was actually regional. And macro data, I think, does not get after what we're looking at here in terms of identifying where we have Vermonters that are experiencing this transition differently than others. And I'll I'll just remind you the example that I've given is around telecommunications. And, you know, had we known that, you know, all the people within a thirty mile radius of Reedsboro were dropping their phone lines, you know, or in all the big cities were dropping their phone lines, it might have occurred to us to say, oh, we have a public safety issue and we're over month that we should so that's the kind of indicators that I'm hoping. And and I'm guessing you may not have all of those at this point regionally, but that is really very specifically what I am hoping that we can eventually get to here. Thank you. [Chair Kathleen James]: Thanks, rep, Sebelia. So let's see. Some of my high level, level of flags were similarly, I'd I'd put down by region where location is is very important to get to wherever wherever and whenever we can. I wondered, secretary Moore, about we heard testimony earlier today from the act about the it sounds like the very readily available data they have on gas pumps. And so it sounded like that might be something we should add, you know, maybe add agency of agriculture and add number and location of gas. And then we got into a little bit of a back and forth about whether we should be asking for the number and location of gas pumps or gas stations. I think we landed on gas stations, but it's whatever word accurately summarizes whatever we can get from ag with their metered pumps. And then I we talked a little bit about is this an annual report? It sounds like what you're thinking right now is let's get this first one done, get it to you on December fifteenth, and that will include recommendations for how we move ahead? [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yes. And and includes or also provides the opportunity for us to progress the work where we are engaged in around our own measuring and assessing progress tool, and can report back to the committee on that this time next year as well. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. We wondered about just quickly, item number seven in your list, the fast chargers of level two. And we had a little conversation around whether item number one, current electric rates and forecast electric rates. Is it possible is it possible to see that data by just regular residential electric rates? And then we wondered about uptake or adoption and, I guess, the price of e home EV chargers. And we wondered if if number one on electric rates is where we could try to get some window into home charging rates and adoption. I don't really know the answer to that. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Number of customers on EV rates, I guess, simply would be the simplest. [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yeah. Although my personal experience with Green Mountain Power is you don't necessarily have to sign up for a rate. You you Oh. Enroll by the time you tell your charger to access the grid. But [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Oh, there's a the the the EV rates have a have a a peak rate and an off peak rate. The off peak rate is very attractive. So what I think anybody that will will sign up for the for the EV rates. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yes. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: So, yeah, we would only capture the people who were who were have taken the trouble to sign up for EV rates, but even just knowing that would be useful. [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yeah. I I can check back with the Department of Public Service and to see what they're tracking. I tried to queue to things where there where there are known existing datasets and no new data collection being initiated. That's weird. I guess I would propose to you all that at least in this this first round of this, we focus on already available data. And if there is new data collection that's sought, we can have a conversation then about what that would take. I that's harder for me to commit to without any additional resources provided for this work. [Vice Chair Scott Campbell]: Sure. Thank you. [Chair Kathleen James]: Rep Sebelia? [Ranking Member Laura Sibilia]: I'm sorry, madam chair. My head was up in air. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. Well, if unless we have additional questions for secretary Moore, I'd love to break in time for floor. Secretary Moore, I think our plan, just so that you know our plan, is so we have your we have your thoughts. We had our own draft. Ellen Chukowski from ledge council is gonna listen to our little conversation here. And I just forgot we were supposed to drop bread crumbs for her on YouTube. Like, that would be a good thing to include in the draft, but we forgot to do that. However, she's gonna listen to this whole twenty minute meeting, and then she is going to try to come back with a draft that incorporates some of the thoughts, some of the conversation we had earlier today about her draft, your ideas, which I think everybody is very open to, and try to come back with a draft for us at eleven o'clock on Friday morning. Just that's just FYI for you. And then we are hoping to vote this out the week we get back from town meeting break. [Secretary Julie Moore]: I, personally will be on annual leave on Friday, but we'll ask a member of our climate office to review the that walk through and can certainly follow-up with you on on any additional feedback or input we would have during town meeting week. [Chair Kathleen James]: Great. And we'll make sure we send it to you. As soon as we have it from Ellen, we'll make sure to send you a copy. [Secretary Julie Moore]: Thank you. And I I will send a link to the clean water performance report to Jack so he can distribute it to all of you. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. And duly noted did we talk about this already? I so you're you're raising your hand for ANR to take the lead on this. We had it in DBS. So [Secretary Julie Moore]: Yeah. I mean, I I think given the the, the work we are doing, we are leading on the measuring and assessing progress tool. I think it does make sense to have this sit with the climate office in ANR. [Chair Kathleen James]: Great. Alright. Thank you so much for the last minute joining in. You're welcome. Appreciate it. We will talk to you again. And, Jack, we can
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