SmartTranscript of House Education - 2025-04-23 - 10:00 AM

[Speaker 0 ]: And you're live. [Chair Peter Conlon]: We are back at House Education on April twenty third twenty twenty three, continuing our discussion of a phone free schools bill. We've been getting some testimony from all areas, but today we are welcoming somebody with some true expertise in adolescent growth and behavior. Anyway, I'm gonna turn it right over to you, doctor. If you'd introduce yourself and we'd love to hear what you have to say about phone free schools. [Harris Strokoff]: Sure. Thank you so very much for having me. I wish I could be there in person. I'm actually out of state, but but thrilled to be able to to contribute to this. My name is Harris Strokoff. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist based in both South Burlington, Vermont, and also work at NCSS in in Saint Albans, Vermont. And I've had the privilege of of working with children's children, adolescents, and adults for most of the last twenty years. And and in that time, have I I feel like I've really gotten a really clear view as to how how things have changed as far as the types of issues that that kids and teens have struggled with. And and as as as all of you all of you know, a lot of it has to do with with with these. And so happy to happy to talk about, you know, some of the things that that I've seen in in in my working with, you know, Vermont kids and teens. And also I'd share, know, what we know from from from national trends and and studies as well. I've been talking to so I also admit I'm a parent, and so so it's very, very close to me as well. And and I've been talking with a lot of schools, mostly in Franklin County, some in Chittenden County, talking to concerned parents, talking to educators. And and one thing that's been been wonderful has been how open people have been to learning more about the impact that that screens have on, not just education, but but really emotional development as well for for children. And and and how many and and just just the fact that we're talking about it here shows just how far we've come in the last few years. I have a presentation that that I've been giving to schools that that usually takes takes up an hour. I've I've distilled it to some slides that that I'm thinking I could share with you in fifteen minutes or so. And and I certainly these tend to be extremely conversational, and so I would love any questions and or if if if if you'd prefer to use this this valuable time just to simply ask questions from the get go, I'm I'm happy happy with that as well. So so whichever, the committee would prefer. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, I think why don't you go ahead and, our agenda has us taking a break at ten thirty, but we can easily go beyond that, of course, depending on your availability. Yep. You would certainly won't we don't wanna shortchange your information. So why don't you sort of talk a little bit about your with your presentation, and then I just encourage the committee to raise your hands. I'll I'll interrupt, and we can ask questions as we go along. [Harris Strokoff]: Hey. So what I'll do is I will share my screen here. One moment, please. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Meanwhile, during this pause, we will all sit here and fight the urge to look at our phones. Okay? [Harris Strokoff]: Absolutely. There it is. Okay. So as I mentioned, I I work at a in CSS, and and we we certainly treat a lot of kids and families where where where where social media and and screens have certainly certainly been playing a role in in in symptomatology. So one thing I I like to to bring people to know about is, you know, there is a growing body of research when it comes to Internet and gaming addiction. It is not officially in the DSM five, but it was given a provisional diagnosis due to how many people, not just kids, certainly, but adults have have found that the addictive nature of video games and and and social media and the Internet has has caused problems for them. And, one thing, you know, I I can tell you that I I feel like I I've seen it all. I mean, we I think, you know, I I I share with families and educators that, you know, that, I I'm no saint, you know, like anybody. I I I feel like I have a, at times in my life, I've had an unhealthy relationship with with with my phone, or I feel like, you know, I I I wish I would look at it less throughout the course of my life, and I think that's part of being a human now in, in twenty twenty five. What Internet and gaming addiction is is that that's when, it gets to a point where where where it really causes consequences, such as, for instance, in an adult, job loss, relationship loss, in a child. I would certainly argue that, you know, school failure, certainly absenteeism from school is is largely tied to life on screens in in my experience. And one thing that we found with Internet and gaming addiction is a lot of the same symptoms that we see in substance use disorders. Almost all the same symptoms we see in substance use disorders we see in Internet and gaming addiction. That includes, just, you know, an an unhealthy preoccupation. It includes tolerance. You know, whereas before, you know, one could kind of get their needs met, checking social media, you know, maybe ten minutes a day, and the next thing you know, it's two hours a day. Withdrawal, and, you know, I I I mentioned end stage here, you know, in my work in Vermont over over the last decade. I mean, I I've seen cases where where kids have ended up in emergency rooms, due to severe aggression, when, when they're when they're kind of parted from from their from their devices at times. And so we certainly see all the the signs and symptoms of addiction. Impact on education. I I have I know these slides are shared. You know, University of Chicago did a study that that I thought was was was was rather well done that showed that even, a student who has their smartphone turned off on their desk did not perform as well as if as if they didn't have it there. And it just speaks to how much we think about our life through our phone and how distracting that can be, let alone if it if it was turned on. And the more that people, identified themselves as being addicted to their phones, the the the more striking that impact was. And so, again, even just having the phone off has an impact on education. A lot of what I hope to talk about today is the impact of Internet and phone use in the classroom. I mean, this this is multifaceted. I know you've heard from experts that are educators and and and and and a number of other experts that that I saw. But it is impossible for us to focus when we when we're distracted by what what largely is a a preferable activity. You know, kids would rather look at their phones than pay attention to to what's going on in class. And and and it's, you know, it's just it's just very clear that it impacts that impacts education. And even as important that as its impact on on on education, you know, there's the impact on social and emotional development. For many kids, especially from from more marginalized groups, being in school may be the only time that they get to be around other kids in a pro social environment, you know, face to face. You know, it because many kids, you know, the moment they get home, they're they're on screens until they until they sleep and and when they wake up. And what we know is that it's critical for social and emotional development to experience the the back and forth of of being human. And and thus, even being able to use one's phone in between classes is is very detrimental. Yep. I there's something I call the hours in the day effect. It has different names. But, basically, it's it's it's about what I was just speaking about just now and that there there are certain things that humans have evolved to require in order to to come out optimal optimal humans. And and that is, you know, learning how to connect with other, with other humans face to face, learning how to be curious, learning how to think about what one may wanna do without things being suggested to them, virtually all the time, Developing a a connection with with the earth, with nature, developing a connection with our bodies through exercise. These are all things that we know are paramount for preventing things like depression and substance use disorders, whatnot. We are beginning to see, in my opinion, what some of the outcomes are from from persons who kind of, you know, are are devoid of these things, devoid of these these beneficial relationships when they when they hit young adulthood. Among other things, I I I think I predict, unfortunately, that that it's probably going to lead to a a, an increase in in in in disability in humans, due due to inability to tolerate different different things and and, also, screen addiction making Right. Leading to absenteeism from from school and from work, etcetera. So, talked about this, you know. And this is just a I shared this screen with parents a lot because it highlights that not only is it specific social media apps, but even group texting can be a a a significant source of of of drama, of of feeling feeling left out for for children, of of bullying, etcetera. We know that depression and suicidality have been increasing in our in our teens and youth and and young adults. And it's it very much seems to be tied to social media use. As far as why that is, there are a number of reasons. You know, cyberbullying certainly happens. We compare ourselves to others on social media, whether we are conscious of it or not, and it it can it can make people certainly feel feel less than and increase anxiety and stress. Plus, much like cable news, it it leads to the consumption or consumption of negative and depressing content. And, usually, it's veiled in something that might look might look cool to a to a teen or young adult initially, but then, you know, further kind of getting into what is given to these kids and teens via social media, think things tend tend to get negative because negativity keeps keeps eyeballs eyeballs on it. So did I click that? Yes. There's a a graph I'd like to share here. There it is. This is a a graph that shows a percentage of US high school students who felt sad or hopeless or had suicidal thoughts in the last year. And this is a few years old at this point. And what we see so the sad and hopelessness percentage of high school students is in blue. Suicidality in high school students is in red. We can see that it seemed like things were were trending to be improved for a while, and then there was a large spike and and a and a continued upward trajectory. When first showing this to parents and educators, many saw this graph. And before looking at dates, thought, oh, this that must be COVID that that that really worsened things. But, actually, it's two thousand nine where we really started to see this worsening trend, and and that's, obviously, well before COVID. What that is, though, is that's the advent of when, smartphones became ubiquitous and and Facebook really started to take hold. And so social media, impact and, you know, and I I I think back historically, you know, not there there was nothing else, you know, really societal really jarring in two thousand nine that that I would attribute to this, for for our kids and teens. K. This is a report from little over a year ago, that showed that, you know, frequent social media use, led to a higher risks for teens. This is a a CDC report. Basically, significant increased risk of being bullied the more time one spends on social media. And that could be being bullied through social media, or it could be being bullied at school or whatnot due to what one is posting on on social media or or posted about them on social media. And, also, the CDC report showed a fifty percent increased risk of suicidality amongst the the heavier social media users in teenagers. Okay. I believe this has been shared in in testimony before and it's, you know, it's surgeon general's advisory in May twenty twenty three where where where doctor Murti really spelled out, I thought, very eloquently, you know, the the risk that social media has on has on kids. One thing that I see, and I alluded to this, earlier, is kinda I I feel like we're starting to see what some of the impact is on young adults. It's something that I I've I've seen described as as existential depression. There are many different types of of depression that we treat as psychiatrists. Some are, you know, really, really just bought what I call biological, where where we really don't see many risk factors. But oftentimes, it's either known or unknown genetics that can lead to major depression at times, you know, that we treat. Sometimes, we see depressive disorders that are very much, you know, genetically passed down. Sometimes we see depressive disorders that are very much in part due to due to trauma and and life stress. What I see in in in these cases of existential depression are when kids become young adults without the appropriate identity formation. And and oftentimes, you know, that happens when when kids maybe they're occupied in their childhood and their teenage years, and they're occupied in a in a virtual world, you know, play playing games, do doing everything through a screen, and they're satisfied, you know, largely at that time. They're kids. They're getting their needs met. They're playing video games, having fun. And then oftentimes, it isn't until these kids reach twenty years old, eighteen years old, twenty four years old when they realize, oh, wait. There are other kids my age that are able to do things that I'm not able to do. They're able to ask hard questions. They're able to put themselves out there and maybe even be rejected. They're able to apply for a job. They're able to work. They're able to they're able to show up in life, and and that can then lead to a different type of a different type of depression where where kids have not experienced real novelty seeking and and gained accomplishment outside of outside of, say, a video game, if you will. And and and and that's certainly certainly hard hard to treat. This is a a link to a a study. This is from about five months ago or so, that actually looked at it. If I remember correctly, it was, college students on break, and, how much social media, they were using. And, basically, what it showed is that the more these teenagers I guess it was teenagers. The more these teenagers used social media, the less social they actually were. And what that means is the more hours one reported being on social media, the less conversations they had with humans throughout throughout that same that same period. So I I I thought that was pretty fascinating in that we we call it social media, but at least in this case and probably in many cases, it substitutes for for for for truly being being social and and how how most of us think about it. So what can we do? And that that that brings us to to the work that that that you're doing, and I'm so happy happy that you are. One is is educating, you know, educating students about this issue, educating parents about this issue. There's a link to this. This is actually a two thousand eighteen article, and that's when when people started to notice that there's a a digital divide when when it comes to schools. And and this is something else that has made me really passionate about this issue in that, it it truly is an equity issue. And that, you know, parents that have means, parents that have higher levels of education are able to engineer, screen free opportunities for their kids. Maybe it's sending their kid to private school, which, around the country, that has been a a large reason when asked what what why parents do choose to send their kids to private schools. It's because of how much their their kids are are on Chromebooks or or or their their peers or or even their own children are on on cell phones during school. Parents with means can afford tutoring to make up for maybe learning loss due to having screens in schools. Parents with means can engineer other activities such as, you know, sleepaway camps, you know, athletics, etcetera. Whereas more more marginalized kids don't. Parents with means that know how to put a child's phone on lockdown, so that, so that their children are not accessing their phone at school, and they can check and and make sure that isn't the case. A new American may struggle with with knowing how to do that or may not even know that's possible, may not even know that's an issue. And so I I certainly see this be being an equity issue. I also talk about modeling, how it's important for us as parents, as adults to model appropriate technology use and most importantly, time not using technology. And, you know, the the the last or the third bullet is schools stepping in. In twenty twenty two or twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, it was still pretty new. And I remember even two years ago giving talks, you know, there weren't there weren't many examples of Vermont schools saying, you know, we we don't want smartphones in our school. The first places to do it at scale that I know that I know of are in the Bay Area, which which is ironic and that that's where the technology was developed. But I I believe it was so there's San Mateo I think it was San Mateo School District was at the time the largest school district to ban smartphones in in in twenty twenty three. And most of the time when schools do this, certainly, kids may may groan initially, but most of the time when asking kids in these in these schools two or three weeks later, they're they're they're unconcerned about it. And and and many many report that it it improves their their education and their and their school life. So that's why we're here. Okay. And just some other things, you know, this is kind of a a newer term that that's being used called digital dementia, and this applies to us adults certainly, that, you know, the more the time that we spend on screens, scrolling, it can actually impact our memory. And there are actually these articles that speak to certain studies, that that are being done, looking at populations where, where smartphones are not ubiquitous and and are they better at remembering certain details, names, etcetera, than than those of us in in our more developed technological societies. You know, I yeah. Again, mentioning that I I feel very fortunate and and hopeful that the pendulum is swinging back, and and we're starting to to realize, you know, some of the negative impacts that that screens are having on our development. Obviously, technology has great great promise as a as a physician. I know that it already has helped with medical breakthroughs. It's going to help with many more medical breakthroughs. We're we're fine. It it is even going to have some beneficial impacts on education. And I think that, you know, really, really developing the balance as far as our our children are concerned is is of paramount importance. So that's that's me speeding through my my presentation. I'm now going to attempt to to stop my my screen sharing. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Great. Thank you. The other day, we had folks from Harwood Union High School testify and kids and the principal. And what was, to me kind of amazing is just in terms of the data they keep in terms of scores and attendance and all of that, there was a pretty immediate impact with in in a positive direction once they banned cell phones. And I'm just wondering if there's data out there, if enough schools have sort of done this at this point, is there enough national data or local data that sort of says, yeah. In fact, what they found at Parwood is a is backed up by national data? [Harris Strokoff]: That's a great question. You know, the data that I found shows that, you know, decreasing use, decrease stress on attendance, on school performance. I I wish I wish I wish I had looked. I I I I I'm not certain, but I I've certain I can't tell you anecdotally. I've heard from individual students. I've heard from teachers. I've heard from from families who, you know, I've I've yet to hear anyone have anything negative to say about it except for in certain cases where parents are are really anxious about maybe their their their children's anxious condition where where they feel where the parent feels like they need to be able to contact their child. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I think what was also amazing about the testimony we received from Harvard folks and and Thetford is that everybody adjusted just fine. Yeah. It was no it just it was fine. Yeah. Yeah. Representative Brady. [Erin Brady]: First, thanks. I appreciate your pointing out the equity issue. This is Yeah. Percolating for me as you hear yeah. I think you've been if we look at what Vermont schools are stepping are doing it now, I think we're starting to see that. Harwood, that for CBU. You know, certainly not entirely, but I do think that there's some more, affluent communities and parents and active parents, that are pushing it in certain places. And as we look at the state as a whole, that concerns me that we would, you know, that there would become disparate application if we think this is what is good for kids. And I can see that sort of parent advocates are maybe more having more of an impact in certain districts. So I appreciate raising that. I think it's something we need to really consider as a committee. But my question is more from the clinical side when you hear the medical exemptions or students might need a phone to deal with a high school teacher have heard this, you know, from students or parents or even special educators at times, need, need the phone to help to be able to do check ins with parents to manage anxiety or need to be able to listen music to sort of tune out, excess stimulation. And that, obviously, I know you can't case by case maybe, but I wonder from sort of the medical side how you address that or think about that. I'm sure you've heard those arguments made or those concerns [Harris Strokoff]: raised. I I I I certainly have. And and in my experience and, obviously, you know, I I can't speak to every case, but probably ninety five percent of the time, that anxious condition that that that the child has would be improved by by having the inability to check-in Yeah. Most of the time. A tenant a key tenant of a psychotherapy psychotherapeutic treatment for anxiety disorders, it's in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the the type of therapy that's most likely to improve any type of anxious or even depressive disorder in in kids and teens is exposure, is, is being able to be exposed to, discomfort. And and also being in therapy and being able to practice what we can do when we're feeling that discomfort. And maybe it's a mantra, maybe it's a deep breathing, progressive muscle relaxation, maybe it's even getting support from, from the the school, you know, therapist. But most of the time, the therapist and certainly the psychiatrist would not recommend such an exemption. And and and it would not recommend such an exemption because it can actually interfere with treatment and therapy. You know, sometimes we hear, like, oh, my my child doesn't need that next level of treatment because I can just check-in with them all the time. But that's not sustainable. And then that actually can lead to avoidance of avoidance of using those psychotherapeutic tools that can help help make one better and help decrease their risk for worsening symptoms and disability in the future. So my hope is that most of my colleagues in the helping field will really think two or three or four times before before signing an exemption. Now now there are certain cases, you know, for instance, like, you know, obviously, I one example is, like, let's say someone has profound autism or intellectual disability, and they need a device to to speak and communicate, of course. Or maybe it's part of one's treatment plan where the only way this child can get to school is if they're afforded two check ins per day or something. If it's with a therapist who's signing off on it, then then maybe. But most of the time, I I think most of my colleagues would agree that it's usually the the it's the parent wanting to help, but but most of the time, it it's not not the recommended thing. [Erin Brady]: Thank you. You're welcome. [Speaker 0 ]: This this might be more of a question for Peter, but you were talking about how sort of that affluent ability to choose how your kids spend their time. Because our cell phone bill, if it passed, would that cover, like, state funded summer camps, like, the kinds that happen? Because that's one of the things I was thinking about is I realized I actually signed my kids up for weeks of summer camp just to keep them off screens. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yes. [Speaker 0 ]: And so, like, how can we also make that something we can provide? [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. You know, I I think what we're trying to do is just one piece of the puzzle, and that is to give kids a six hour break from all of this stuff. Right. And maybe that leads over into their life outside where they start realizing, oh, I don't need to be on my phone all the time. [Erin Brady]: But But [Speaker 0 ]: I was thinking, like, we do actually provide some state funded summer opportunities for kids, that wouldn't be covered in this? [Chair Peter Conlon]: They would not, but they're, of course, all welcome to have their own rules. Yeah. You know, I I the the part of this bill that I I I don't struggle with because I feel I'm not feeling a real urgency here. But if we did nothing, a lot of this would happen anyway Mhmm. Because it just it's sort of spreading like a wildfire. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that we so I think that it'll it'll start getting into all facets of things like after school programs or some of the learning programs. [Erin Brady]: There's a record amount of money in that after school That's right. Fund and dedicated canvases. [Harris Strokoff]: It's a [Erin Brady]: separate policy issue and discussion for another time. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Other questions from the committee? Great. That was really helpful, and it's great to get your perspective on on all of this. Thanks very much for your time today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [Harris Strokoff]: Thank you. I I I mentioned I'm extremely appreciative for for your committee, and we've been waiting for this and and and thinking about what what this is going to be, not just for kids now, but for future generations. It it it will be incredibly positive. So thank thanks again. I really appreciate it. Right. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Thank you. So, Katie, we will we'll just be on break, until eleven. [Erin Brady]: Love it.

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SmartTranscript of House Education - 2025-04-23 - 10:00 AM

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