SmartTranscript of House Education - 2025-03-21 - 3:00 PM

[Jill Briggs Campbell]: And you're live. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Okay. This is House Education Friday, March twenty first twenty twenty five. For our final portion of the day, we're gonna hear from the secretary of education and the deputy secretary of education. We're really sort of lending sort of two topics, I would say. One, we have asked for some more sort of feedback and and information around the four million dollars that was asked for in the budget. And I had also asked for just some things that we've been discussing, putting into legislation that that part is from the governor's proposal as well as just other things, proposal for statewide calendar, a proposal for, a proposal timeline and plan for support and implementation of a single state student information system, financial management system, a proposal for how AOE will resource and support new districts in combining party agreements, all of that, and then some other things. So I think the testimony today is going to be both about that and about the four million dollars because they are intertwined. So what we have on post on the website is a lengthy narrative that sort of breaks down a lot of the the future ideas in terms of support and the funding behind it. Anyway, floor is yours. Thank you very much for popping up and down and trying to meet all of the needs of all of the committees in this building. Floor is yours. [Zoe Saunders]: Thank you. Good afternoon. For the record, I'm Zoe Saunders, secretary [Jill Briggs Campbell]: of education. Jill Briggs Campbell, deputy secretary of education. [Zoe Saunders]: And as representative Conlan, you mentioned, we are hoping to address a lot of your questions with today's testimony. We do have additional detail around how the agency of education intends to support the transformation process. We have that broken down by the three main buckets of where we are providing focus, which is, intended to support operational budget needs, academic needs, and also, supporting with the board transition. We've had a lot of conversations with the committee and others around capacity building. So we really wanted to be, explicit around how we see this also at the capacity building opportunity for the agency. So in doing some additional refinement on our proposal, we are actually including in the proposal five budget five, permanent positions, as part of this budget proposal. So we will outline today how we see those positions supporting with the transformation, and then as we move to the future state, how they are really embedded within our team at the agency. These positions will be operating within the context of our current teams and will benefit from the resources and support and expertise of our divisions. And, also, there will be support from consultants that have specific subject matter expertise or specialization in the work that we are doing. So we're excited to to bring that forward. Some of the specific questions that you've had around, the activities that will happen throughout the transformation process are addressed through this plan. We've contemplated the specific resources and activities that are needed. And wanna emphasize also that we recognize this work is multiyear. And so as we're putting forward this proposal, we've built in really two years of preparation and brand newing our system to move into that first year of the new government structure and the new foundation formula, understanding that that's not the end of transformation. That is where we get to switching to a new funding formula, which will allow us to be more stable, more predictable, and ensure consistent equitable resources. But there's additional work contemplated beyond fiscal year twenty eight that's really achieving our broader educational quality goals, and a lot of additional community input as we're thinking, about, really strengthening the new districts. So with that, I will turn it over to Gilbert Campbell to walk through, the details of that transformation plan. I mean, if you could, if you're walking through, just touch on and emphasize how this work is supportive of some of the specific tasks that you're interested in looking at, including contract management, debt debt management, the date, calendar, all of those things that you had noted. We have contemplated as part of the plan in in this transformational process in the next two years, we've identified specific milestones to get there. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Sounds good. It feels like it's been a minute since we've been here. So yeah. And I I also wanna signal, that we have released some additional modeling of the five district budgets. So we had our partners at new solutions, k twelve, sort of did a sort of a sample budget for a a sort of theoretical district whose demographic characteristics look like Vermont. And what we heard was, okay. But what about the five district budgets? So, I think you received those. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I don't know. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: I will ensure that you received those. And so really went back and looked at, you know, each building, current enrollment, student demographics, teacher salary, the whole nine yards, and and build the budgets really based on the the private request districts. So you'll have that available as a resource. And, of course, we can always have, Nate and other folks come back in. And then, this afternoon, you will receive a summary of the work to date with our policy sprint teams. And, that work again, kind of that reminder was, we put together work groups, experts from the field, around specific areas of, our policy proposal to surface considerations. Many of the considerations that you've actually, heard in testimony, we've we've captured as well. And I think that you'll see a lot of those considerations reflected in what we're going to discuss today. So that was really productive work thus far. So you'll have that summary and with it, all of the notes. So just as you've done with all of our other reporting, you'll get the high level summary and then kind of all of the raw data that went into it as well as the reference. So that hopefully can continue to inform development of of really, you know, how do we implement this work? What are the steps? What are the contingencies, etcetera, etcetera? So I'll move through this, and folks can feel free to interrupt and ask questions as we go. As secretary Saunders signaled, we have recognized from the the very beginning that, the kind of transformational work that we're proposing really needs, sustained and focused support, from the agency of education and other state partners. That was reflected in the original four million dollar request. And as we've done that work with PolicyScrip and really are trying to be responsive to some of the critical areas of need that have been identified, We refined this proposal to be reflective of that. I think the other key point that secretary Saunders just just raised, so I wanna, you know, put a to highlight under under it is that these positions and sort of the consultants that were were contemplating with this four mill million dollar request is not the only source of support. This is agency wide priority for, you know, the next three years and beyond. And as part of our strategic planning and sort of realignment of agent structures, we would absolutely be looking at how we would be driving support to the field. And I have that sort of in the additional consideration section sort of below so we can talk about that as well. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I see. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: So what is sort of new here is a request for five permanent positions. So you would see them. They're part of the four million dollar request here, but they would be part of base funding moving forward. And, really, five targeted positions that are really meant to address in specific areas of need and concern, but also these positions then become, integral to ongoing agency efforts to support district quality in terms of operations and facilities and then also education and quality moving forward. So, this these, team members will really be the the kind of core of that work moving forward. So position one and two, the business operations and data integration support specialist, we really be working very closely together. All of these positions are very much, working out in the field and convening interdistrict teams, to really ensure that by the time we get to fiscal year twenty eighth, so July one of twenty twenty seven, in particular, we need to ensure that by that date, we have back office systems that are integrated and cohesive as well as really having made a lot of moves to strengthen, coordinate, and integrate practices around curriculum, graduation requirements, proficiency based grading, a lot of those kind of MTSS systems of support, you know, those kind of high leverage education quality standards, as well as looking at really aligning teaching and learning practices, which may be different from district to district, and we can give some specific examples. So what is our goal with these positions is really to ensure that we are well on our way to critical integration by July one of twenty twenty seven. Some of the work, like, must be done by then. Right? Things like your business operation systems must be fully integrated. Some of the work will be ongoing around sort of education quality even some of the school facilities work. So the business operations support specialist is really tasked with supporting districts in integration of disparate accounting, HR, and other back office functions. We know that one of our challenges across our systems, right, is that there's a lot of variability in the kinds of systems they're using. The way that they use uniform chart of accounts is not as uniform as we would like it to be. You know, budgeting practices, some of these districts will be supervisory districts that have to generate one and one budget every year, and others are supervisory unions that have to generate ten budgets every year. So how do we integrate those budgeting practices? They will, as I said, really be convening, interdistrict teams to do that work. And then also will really be that critical kind of point of contact surfacing, to the rest of the agency areas where, there's, you know, guidance, tools, training, and other support that is needed, to keep this work moving forward. They'll play a key role also if the state is contemplating moving towards a single financial you know, statewide financial systems, student information systems. They will really be ensuring, with the lessons that we've learned from past initiatives, that, district needs and goals and state needs and goals are aligned and contemplated so that we really are ensuring that whatever a statewide system might be is actually going to be sophisticated and meet the needs of districts as they as they require to be successful. This work would also, be done in some very close collaboration with the data integration support specialist. Again, really recognizing a need, to ensure that all of these disparate data systems are fully integrated, and there's, you know, a multitude of lists of those. And, also, again, if we're looking at, single statewide data systems would really be that person who is operating between the agency and the field and any consultants that the agency brings on board to help us with alignment of our data infrastructure. So those two positions would be working on the ground a lot with district teams. Again, this is one of those places where what must be achieved by July one twenty twenty seven, all of these systems need to be integrated and, you know, and ready to switch on. I'll sort of jump down. If we look at, the sort of last position, which is listed at position four, but, sure, we'll go numerically. Call it position five. The school facilities, support specialist is, a position that I would see would have, you know, work to do over the next two years, but, really, this is a very long term field position that would be working with district staff, to really be looking at their portfolio of buildings, being able to provide, facilities condition data, enrollment trends, feeding patterns for attendance, transportation patterns, and other local considerations, really being able to help district teams, as they're looking at their portfolio of buildings and looking at things like grade realignment or consolidation or efficiencies in transportation routes, [Representative Erin Brady]: some of [Jill Briggs Campbell]: that need that's really been surfaced. One of the reason that I I really wanted to ensure that this was there is I have phone calls with facilities directors all the time right now. They're they're sort of constantly calling me. We've been having these conversations for quite a long time. We have a lot of folks in the field that have been trying to think about ways to make their buildings more efficient or consolidate or realign grades. And one of the barriers [Zoe Saunders]: that they've always had, and I [Jill Briggs Campbell]: I literally had a phone call just two days ago, is even within our supervisory unions, you may have multiple elementary schools, but they sit in different school districts. Mhmm. And so it's like there's a great wall, right, between all of those districts. Right? So not only how do we contemplate if you were looking at, you know, just a a supervisory district structure, but if we're actually merging multiple districts together, how might you actually look at your portfolio of buildings? So being able to have someone who's in the field long term really working with folks, and then always sort of looking to that future state of, like, what are the potential, you know, expansion of maybe one facility so that it could accommodate forty more students or whatever that may be with that long term eye towards what are the improvements to facilities that need to happen. The two positions in the middle are really focused on ensuring that in a period of disruption that we are really protecting learning and teaching, but also that we leave this system actually stronger and more integrated and really raising the the bar for sort of school quality in learning and teaching and and sort of this education quality standards. This is work that would has sort of these two positions, but would absolutely be supported by whole teams of agency staff that have a lot of subject matter expertise and and content area expertise to to help support this work. So the these are very long titles. I don't answer they're descriptive of the work. So both of these positions will be working again really closely together and with agency staff. The first, the curriculum and education quality standards integration specialist. I already sort of signaled this. Right? Because as a state, we really don't have a lot of standardization. Right? So for example, we don't have minimum state graduation requirements. Proficiency based grading approaches are really different, not only from district to district, but oftentimes school to school, sometimes classroom to classroom. You know, things like the way different local assessments better use, local benchmark assessments, and the way that they do or do not integrate with statewide assessment, which does or does not integrate with proficiency based learning standards. Right? So lots of work to do here as I call it sort of hooking up all the plumbing. And so really having someone that can bring together different districts, both of these positions really looking at in the current practices, the current standards, the current policies, and really helping districts in integrating their practices. And for example, we have some districts that are years down the road in doing science based reading instruction. Right? And then right next door, they may we have a district who may not be doing that at all right now or is just taking the first steps. So how do we ensure that by the time we get to larger district sizes, we really I think this is really an area of opportunity to kind of help and support these other districts by, you know, having their peers and building leaders really kind of building that culture of, you know, this is how we're this is the best practice for learning and teaching, and we're going to support that work. So these two positions, again, long term work are really supported by agency teams that will be doing this work as part of our strategic planning, but really wanting to ensure that we're leading the system stronger through a period of disruption and beyond. So those are the positions. I can pause. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Oh, maybe that's a good idea. [Zoe Saunders]: Okay. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Are are there questions just on the positions themselves? We can and we people people don't have questions now. And at the end, it's fine too, of course. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: What's the hope in terms of [Representative Erin Brady]: when we'd ideally like to [Jill Briggs Campbell]: have these folks in place? So we can never hire until we have an appropriation. But if we saw that this was the the direction that things were going, we would get this position, you know, described, ready to go, and would we're aiming for early fall would be our goal. That would be moving at light speed for the state of Vermont, I actually have some confidence in this because we did this in COVID. Mhmm. So we know we got some muscle memory on meeting quickly. [Representative Erin Brady]: Representative Brady? Were there do you have any sort of tools at your disposal about pay scale and, like, who you can hire high quality people, people that may be leaving the field as we transform, but would be tremendous assets at the statewide level. But, you know, really pay cuts are difficult. You know, we know it's part of the challenge. Yeah. And state agencies in general. Is there any when we're co parent [Jill Briggs Campbell]: that we can Yes. Yeah. We've actually I mean, I I think we again, we haven't had a chance to chat lately. Yeah. We've actually been doing some pretty intentional work around this with some of our critical vacancies and making moves to better align the, like, high level of skill and knowledge that we need for some positions with competitive pay scales. Yeah. So we've been doing that with some of our other vacancies as well and would anticipate doing so with these positions as well. But, yeah, it's always a challenge. And we think that there's some incredibly talented people in the field that we would love. And we've talked about this. Right? Where is the expertise? And it would be great if more of the expertise, that we have at the field was at the state level, so we're supporting more students with those skills and knowledge than we currently are. [Representative Erin Brady]: And a quick policy question that I hear, we're trying to get some timeline things really clear. You're intending for student information systems and finance systems to be standard statewide by twenty [Jill Briggs Campbell]: twenty seven. So let me [Zoe Saunders]: Was that an aspirational? So Okay. Aspirational. So Yeah. What we're identifying is that there is a lot of work involved Yeah. In identifying how to do system integration and then actually integrating and system adoption. Yeah. Right? Statewide. That's right. That's [Jill Briggs Campbell]: hold you to twenty twenty. No. No. Yeah. I wanted to be sure. Yeah. So that is a very long process. [Zoe Saunders]: But what we are being intentional about is ensuring that we have the resources focused on that to identify and do that important mapping. You know, there's a whole inventory process that's required, and then there's a mapping, and then there's defining user, requirements both at the state level and the, district level that would be involved. So we would intend to have a report back to the general assembly next year after doing that review around what that system integration should look like, what the cost would be, and the timeline. Knowing that that's, a very big lift, I want to call out that there are other mechanisms to collect and align data. So we currently are operating in an ecosystem where districts have a lot of different systems. And so we have, done intentionally work at the agency to improve our ability to collect that information, clean it, and map it. And so there's a tool we implemented just this year called, Ed Fi, kind of describe it as a vacuum. It kind of takes all the information, yeah, from all the different systems, and then there's, coding and mapping that does suit to align that. So we would expect that, like, with any adoption, there would need to be a bridge, to getting there. And so we have refined our tools, and we do have expertise managing multiple systems that's continuing to improve. This is actually the first year of the full implementation of that, and by instrument. And so we can continue to refine that, and we would expect to do so over this transition period knowing that full system integration would take longer. So we wanna be realistic. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Continue. Okay. Mhmm. And so you have already seen, sort of the next section, which was really looking at those kind of three buckets. Right? And, obviously, the positions are tied to that. We also want to signal that some of this work that we're talking about doing is, work that is highly complex and needs a level of expertise and across multiple systems that really would benefit from having some consultant expertise. So some of this, the work that the positions would be tasked with is going to be supported and agency, kind of strategic priorities, like strengthening our accountability and education quality framework, really would need to be supported with someone who can help us manage the multiple systems. And by help us manage, I mean, help agency staff to do the work of managing and integrating multiple systems. So that is sort of what was outlined kind of in our original request, and it would be temporary work. So it's like a surge of work that would be supported by consultants leaving the agency better able to support the shield long term and being able to accelerate that work. So if there's questions around that, I I think you've seen it before. So I I don't wanna You're [Chair Peter Conlon]: talking about the financial transformation and Yeah. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Financial transformation, the kind of academic accountability, and then the school board support and transformation is very much sort of a a you know? It's not usually an agency function, but we would want to bring in sort of additional resources and supports for new districts and also, you know, districts that I'm gonna say school boards. It's end of Friday. Support for new school boards as they're looking kind of towards to do the general governance and budgeting and and really being able to build those skills. So that would that work. And then I think if folks can go to beach five, I think. Again, signaling that in really doing this work with the quality school teams and being able to hear some of the feedback that's been surfaced in areas of concern, really signaling that this is this is agency wide support as a key, area of focus. And so some of the, team members so we we know kind of who are full time members of our district transformation support team is. They actually have a team leader, doing a lot of that coordination and communication. Other agency staff that would really need to be engaged in this work would be members of our child nutrition team supporting the integration of food services and other child nutrition programs, early childhood education team supporting implementation of any changes to pre k funding and delivery, our CTE team supporting integration and alignment of CTE centers into the new governance and funding structure we proposed, an academic advancement team, which includes our special education team, led by our chief academic officer. That position was posted yesterday, which is really exciting. And and, Radey, to your point, this is a way that we're actually trying to elevate some positions to ensure that we're able to get the level of expertise and knowledge and experience with the agency that we need. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Could I pause you there? Just sort of could you just talk expand a little bit more on that sort of restructuring, in the agency and and the creation of this position? [Zoe Saunders]: Yeah. So, very early on in my tenure, I was hearing, requests from the field for the agency to have stronger leadership and support, in the academic area. And that translated both to supporting with school improvement, reviewing data, also providing recommendations and resources to for high, you know, high quality instructional materials. And so as we looked at, as I looked at kind of our organizational structure, I was seeking opportunities to, realign some vacancies to elevate our role and a focus, on academics. And so I was able to do that in creating this new position, the chief academic officer, and we'll support a lot of the integration that we're doing. As we've noted, you know, similar to many organizations, we sometimes operate in silos. And so the intention and the work that we're really doing at the agency is ensuring that our content experts are situated in places on the agency to really guide that work. And so the chief academic officer, will be overseeing, that integration and making sure as we think about, special education that we're also talking about, really focusing on improving that tier one instruction because it's not just around special education. It's around, providing, the the training and support, for every student to, have the best, educational experience and the most and most environment possible. So those are the the teaming that we've done, would are very supportive of this role coming in and and helping to provide that coordination. So we're excited. And then free up [Chair Peter Conlon]: So you have somebody focused on that. So the new the the chief of operations would have more time to do chief of operations. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Yeah. But then the structure visit chief operations also serves [Zoe Saunders]: as their deputy and chief academic officer. And just there's a lot of intentionality and really thinking about that overlap and making sure that it's mutually supportive of, achieving our achievements. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Yeah. So we have this academic advance advancement team led by the chief academic officer supported by those two ed quality positions that they already signaled, and then really leveraging, you know, our subject matter and content, experts, special education team, to really be able to help drive this integration both at the agency level and then across districts, really with that goal of, again, leaving a system that's actually stronger, more integrated, and has more consistency. This was something that we, again, were really loud and clear from educators is they educators want to be able to do in their classroom, like, their own special sauce. Right? Like, every educator has their own vibe and their own approach. But having to recreate the wheel in every classroom and every school is really duplicative of effort and it doesn't need as much time for learning and teaching, which is, you know, what we really want folks to be focused on. That's right. There's also operations team led by [Zoe Saunders]: the chief of operations that would [Jill Briggs Campbell]: be neat. Really coordinating with the data integration support fields, school facility support, and business operations support specialist, leading the work of our finance DMAP, operations teams, to ensure that we're really able to support the field and then also driving towards kind of those improvements, in process of the agency levels that we are, you know, more timely, more accurate, more responsive, and really pointing towards those district and education quality standards long term. And then finally, signaling something really important here that that we've really kinda known early on and often, but really wanna kind of articulate clearly, is that this work of education transformation is not just the agency of education and school districts. Right? This really is work that needs to have interagency support, community partnership. This is long term transformation that is really meant to revitalize and support communities, particularly some of our rural and high needs communities. So, you know, some of the the, you know, the groups that might need to be included and at the table, obviously, staff from ACPD around housing and community development programs, really being able to support communities as they sort of constantly play. If they if they are contemplating school consolidation or closure, will they be able to spend the time and be stand full and supportive of those communities so that they're not experiencing, you know, school closure on an emergency basis, which we we have a recent example of in sort of the Mhmm. The pain that that has caused for those communities. [Zoe Saunders]: So how do we support that [Jill Briggs Campbell]: on the front end? Also, a recognition that this kind of work is stressful and really ensuring that we have our partners at the Department of Mental Health and BDH ready, willing, and able to support districts, schools, communities throughout this. A and R and DEC for PCBs and other considerations like PFAS and wastewater and all of those kinds of things. Staff from Agency of Agriculture, right, to support the food service and and school nutrition programs. ADS to help with the data integration and infrastructure. It kinda goes on and on and on. So it's sort of an all hands on deck approach that would really have, you know, the agency kinda moving this work. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So this would be I just said to I sort of look at this and I go, how do you go from words to actually creating it? I assume this is sort of the role of the governor. He's he creates this team and says, now do what you're supposed to do. Yeah. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: That's right. And then finally, as we kinda go to the last page, I wanted to signal some additional considerations and support. There's, you know, a thousand and one questions with all of this, and so I didn't want to not address a couple of the questions in the that I've heard surfaced and were also surfaced in our scrumptees. So one is a question around legal support. I'll I'll just sort of say very plainly, the agency does not provide legal support to and guidance to districts. Like, that's just not our function. We never do that. But we understand that there's a there's a need for that support. In addition, we heard through the sprint teams, really a need for districts to be resourced with, communications and, like, community engagement support. So one thing that we've been contemplating is the ideas and education transformation grants, that would roll out in FYI twenty seven. And I've, you know, done some back of in math, but we'd like to have that math refined. And then the other thing that we have identified as a need in the field was actually really great partners in in servicing this is at some point, you need to stand up these new central offices and get them working. Right? You can't stand them up on July one twenty twenty seven, so there's going to be a cost to, in essence, filling like, sort of double billing positions. Right? Not a one to one, obviously, but for the new district office, that's yeah. And so that also would go into those education transformation grants is one potential vehicle or how we would fund that. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Is that included in the four million? [Jill Briggs Campbell]: It is not included in the four million. [Zoe Saunders]: And as I said, [Jill Briggs Campbell]: I've got some back of math in math, but, of course, the more future state districts would have, the more expensive that gets. So we've done some modeling on it. Again, I I would like the opportunity to validate some of my thinking with the field that I was using to salary. [Chair Peter Conlon]: About yes. We've learned about back and back and estimate. [Zoe Saunders]: So Yeah. I was using, [Jill Briggs Campbell]: you know, their salary data and and that sort of thing to do some of that work. But I I think that that's a vehicle by which you could ensure that that support is available. [Zoe Saunders]: And it's not calculated in the four million because it would be for fiscal year twenty seven. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: So Right. Right. Yeah. And so I think you would anticipate that as we've done this sort of analysis and in FY twenty six, we're really doing this kind of inventory and kind of gap analysis and [Zoe Saunders]: we would anticipate that we [Jill Briggs Campbell]: would would return an n four twenty for the f twenty seven budget and say, these are the resources that we've identified as well. Casey, were you throwing in exactly so late today? Thank you. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Alright. Questions and comments from the committee? I I just would like to acknowledge that this is kind of a big deal. There's we see and a governor who's been loathed to create new positions, and we have five here. I think that this is goes frankly a long way to addressing the concern reporter over over and over about why are we doing big things when we continually have questions and capacity at the agency, long standing, pre dated both of you. Judge, I just wanted this is this is kind of a big deal. [Zoe Saunders]: Okay. I I appreciate that. But we heard really clearly through our list and therefore that there have been challenges in the past over the agency in the field to implement major legislation. And so I think for this request definitely signals the governor's very deep commitment to this work and understanding around a need to build and strengthen the agency of education, which is important not only in the interim, but recognizing the importance of these roles into the future. These roles are really focused on quality and expanding our capacity to support with district quality and education quality. And it really does align with the structure we're putting forward with the chief academic officer and the chief operational officer and really rounding up those teams to provide the support. This allows us to have extended reach into the field. And I think that's a really important point to note. We've heard the field saying we actually want the agency closer, right, in in in the field working with us. We've talked about Reed Vermont and how we're modeling that. I'll actually bring coaches into the field. Again, this is a consistent commitment that we're signaling to increasing our capacity to be in the field, to be a stronger partner. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: And so, [Zoe Saunders]: yeah, appreciate that that recognition because it it really is the a strong commitment that we're bringing forward. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I appreciate that. These are seem to be all outwardly focused positions. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Yes. They are. And I think, the next time we come in, they'll actually have some good news to share on some critical vacancies. Oh, and [Chair Peter Conlon]: so what? Oh, vacancy. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Yep. That was gonna be a nice question. Excellent. [Zoe Saunders]: We're making rent. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Exchange. [Representative Erin Brady]: But we just did this doesn't preclude or replace sort of existing work [Jill Briggs Campbell]: It doesn't [Representative Erin Brady]: in terms of vacancies and, you know, duties just that are work that needs to happen and make it harder in our federal landscape Mhmm. On just the day to day. So [Chair Peter Conlon]: Have you had a chance to sort of take this, run it through your counsel to find out if, frankly, any of it other than appropriating money requires any further legislative work on our part? And if you haven't, I would just suggest that that happen. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Ask the question again. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So it was just has this [Zoe Saunders]: Like, any vetting of the position? Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I'm not trying to I mean, all I'm saying is, like, you know, other than money, what do you need from us to sort of make is there any role for us in this? [Zoe Saunders]: I got you. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Probably not. It's because it's these are positions that the AAV has created. Mhmm. [Zoe Saunders]: Yeah. I think the staff is appropriating the positions. Yeah. Yeah. That would be the immediateness. [Representative Erin Brady]: Mhmm. Person I I think this is probably an unanswerable question for all of us, but that last point about, like, education transformation grants and sort of the carrying costs of all districts at the same time as new districts not included in the four million. This so there may need to be additional requests in future years for transformation costs in the ongoing process knowing it's going to be on whoever's timeline a multiyear process. Is that It will be safe to assume? [Zoe Saunders]: It will be. It will definitely be a multiyear process. Mhmm. And we are being intentional around thinking about and there are some cost containment strategies built into that. But in terms of gonna specialize support for a system wide adoption, we would need to contemplate those costs. And we're also mindful that there would need to be a bridge, right, in being able to support existing systems. So those are gonna have to be ongoing conversations that need to be, thoughtful and strategic around how we're investing dollars to achieve risk goals. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: I know that some of the questions that I've heard surfaced in in this committee as well as, you know, who does who does? Exercising. Right? And there's you know, we were searching about, like, we almost need a RASCI chart. Right? So, like, who actually does the who's responsible for collective bargaining? Right? I think we would say the agency would not be the appropriate entity to manage collective bargaining. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Right. But it might be the appropriate entity to resource districts to be able to do that. Right? [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Yeah. So I think it's it's like that level of you know, these are all these are all a lot of mechanical questions that it's like if you were sitting down and doing a work plan, you know, you would begin to start to answer those questions. And I think it helps us all collectively contemplate this good work and say, okay. There's steps. There's steps. This is a contingency. We have to actually answer this question before we can answer this. And so I I do think, you know, we're in the process of really developing that, like, detailed punch list, really. And, again, the the policy sprint teams have been really excellent in that, and and so we will have to summary what's coming out to those. So [Chair Peter Conlon]: So you probably have noticed that that is one of my obsessions of great idea. Who's gonna do it? Right. Yeah. And but, actually, there's a list here of who's who's gonna do some of this. Yeah. Right. Representative Brady representative. No. [Representative Erin Brady]: I was gonna say a member of our committee recently received a copy [Representative Erin Brady]: of your org chart, which [Representative Erin Brady]: was really helpful. And so definitely look forward to like, as some of these vacancies are being filled and update and just helping us sort of understand how this sort of fits together a little [Jill Briggs Campbell]: bit more with this would be really great. Yeah. Absolutely. Sounds good. And I can actually share a link with you. I I I will put a note. If you're ever interested, just so you know, if you're ever interested in any agencies, vacancies, or recruiting or anything like that, there's a handy dandy dashboard. Mhmm. Because every time I try to do it, something changes the next day, and I'm like, well, that's no longer timely. So I can share that with you, and you can see right now, I think we have, as of yesterday with the chief of academics, thirteen positions posted of which five of those have verbal offers or are in the hiring process. The rest are actively being interviewed. So as I said, we're actually making a lot of progress. Yeah. This is cool. [Representative Erin Brady]: Yes. Is there flexibility in this? This is my lack of understanding of sort of state budgeting. If the timeline that ends up on the sort of path of transformation ends up slightly different from what is in the original Mhmm. Within the proposal from the governor or particularly, like, the timeline for a foundation formula if they're, like, you know, the reality of full implementation ends up being a year or something later than what was envisioned from your proposal. Yes. Does that impact or change this, or is this still workable knowing that we're all kind [Jill Briggs Campbell]: of working for some bigger goals [Representative Erin Brady]: in the end, but there's some disagreement about, you know, some of the details and some of the speed of [Jill Briggs Campbell]: things. I [Zoe Saunders]: think we're hearing a lot of those questions around timing. And, you know, certainly, as we've done this work with the policy sprint teams, there's, you know, a desire to try to elongate this, and can we spend more time doing this work? I think there is a question around money and the the stabilization of our system. That is a really big concern as we're thinking about elongating that timeline that we would need to understand what is that impact, right, on the taxpayer. And, you know, I I I think there is a lot of uncertainty in the federal funding landscape, which creates, again, another sense of urgency. So while I think there's been an expressed interest in trying to elongate that, there's a practical question of how do we fund our system during those bridge years, knowing that that's going to create a lot of pain on districts right now and having to really go through a very painful process that we continue to experience year over year facing cuts. So I I think that's just something we need to continue to balance. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Questions? Yeah. [Representative Erin Brady]: Just slightly off topic. [Representative Erin Brady]: So if it's a long answer, we don't necessarily have to talk about it today. But just speaking about uncertainty at the federal level, I know I've heard sort of the different state agencies which are staffing up and building capacity in different ways. Are there is there a specific plan at the agency of education around sort of how to build capacity or align capacity to be responsive to potentially big shifts at the federal level? [Zoe Saunders]: So a lot of the transformation plan is designed to future proof our system. So as we initiated our analysis, we identified that we had really significant equity gaps in how we're resourcing our education system. And so part of this plan is to put forward so that we can have, achieve the educational quality in a way that is affordable to taxpayers and is also predictable. So in in many respects, this proposal is designed to, create a really future proof of our system to make sure that we are stable. Right now, a a risk is, you know, federal funding. There could be a future risk that, is related to, other economic conditions. Right? And so part of what we're trying to do within this overall proposal is make sure that we have a strong funding system and that it is equitable. Because in our current system, how we're drawing down state funds, we're seeing that our higher needs communities tend to spend less for people, and that those are the communities that are most dependent on some of the federal dollars. Right? So that creates a vulnerability for our system. So broadly speaking, when we're talking about planning, the transformation really is designed to get us into that place where we can be more stable and that, we can navigate on shifts in federal policy, shifts in economic downturns. Practically speaking, kind of in the short term, our team is working really closely with other state chiefs across, the country and really understanding kind of what some of the changes, what the implications are of the changes, so that we can be proactive in planning and supporting the field. There may be some additional flexibility that we have in terms of how we measure our accountability and, how we distribute funds. And all of those things are what we're, part of exploring. There's there's still a lot of details that need to be clarified, for state agencies, to understand the specifics around how we work. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Can I can I offer something that I think is important? And I I think that you heard from Anne Leonardo last week about this. I think it's really important that everyone is aware. Our formula funds are forward funded, so we do not anticipate disruption to the f y twenty six formula fund. I think that's really important that folks know. We are keeping a very close eye out for what, is going to happen in the federal FY twenty six budget, which is our FY twenty seven state budget. So just wanted to make sure that folks are are clear about that and and we're at least reducing that one piece of anxiety is that our FY twenty six budget. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Her explanation was very helpful. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: That's right. She yeah. She is she's tremendously helpful in this space, and she actually at CCSO, which is our state national professional association, she was the leader of the federal liaisons for two years. So she's very well tied in. She's keeping everybody upstate. And she and I will be in DC next week having these conversations so we can provide an update. And we'll continue to provide updates. [Zoe Saunders]: I I do think, Anne provided a really incredible testimony. She's quite an expert in this area, and I know it's committed to, keeping, the general assembly updated. We I want to give assurances we are absolutely monitoring, and that there is a longer ramp for us to really think through what those applications are once there's greater specificity. And as we have identified potential impacts in terms of, delays, as Diana described, the allocations will communicate to that field. We have protocols to manage that. So just we'll keep you updated, and we are being mindful of monitoring situations. [Chair Peter Conlon]: What what you just said, gave me a little heartburn. This committee has a deadline to fill out on Friday. [Zoe Saunders]: We don't have a I'm [Chair Peter Conlon]: a little concerned to hear that you're both gonna be in Washington. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: We don't just need We do. I didn't come back. This one. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Sorry. I'll get the trick [Jill Briggs Campbell]: to Washington. She gets the next [Zoe Saunders]: one. Yeah. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: I get the cherry blossom. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Mhmm. That's [Jill Briggs Campbell]: true. You'll have her [Zoe Saunders]: in April. I'll be at a conference. That's true. So we divide it. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I I do have a question on all of that and just sort of a resource of information. Mhmm. So secretary French became the COO of the school. It it it how I I realize he's more of an operational person. Mhmm. But to the extent, is he another resource for sort of keeping an eye on federal subsidies in the national organization. [Zoe Saunders]: Expect he'll be pulled away to meet with Jill and Anne frequently. [Jill Briggs Campbell]: Yeah. Yeah. I would I would say that, actually, this is one of those places where I would describe a little bit that Vermont swings way above its weight class when it comes to CPFSO. So both Anne and I have developed really, really close relationships with the CCSSO kind of federal team, including their amazing legal consultants that they use, and we frequently like, almost daily. We are in contact with them right now, and they're the kind of folks who we can pick up the phone. So Dan is doing CCSO operations that we quite happily. We will grab him, but we actually have developed really strong relationships that we leverage frequently. They're on speed dial right now. And, also, we benefit from being able to service to them when something is coming up in the state, like, throughout COVID. Because we are small and because we have very tight relationships with our districts, we have the ability to provide the real world on the ground examples that really needed to be surfaced up to, like, the Department of Education so they understood the implications of x, y, or z in ways that other states just are not able to do. So we [Zoe Saunders]: we have a a nice strong relationship. That's nice. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Sorry. You were just using the past tense when we're working with Department of Education. Yes. [Representative Erin Brady]: I mean, I didn't mean to. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, the sun is out. It's four o'clock on Friday. Good good time to stop. Thank you both very much. You all for having us. Appreciate it.

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