SmartTranscript of HCI-2025-02-19-220 PM

[Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Institutions. It is Wednesday, February nineteenth. We're shifting gears again. We don't have anything in our capital budget for this, but this is recovery day. Folks, it's for our recovery network, the network as well as our returning points. And so they wanted some time before the committee. I know, Tracy, we've spoken to you a couple times, number of times for the recovery coaching that occurs here in correctional facilities, but also how important turning point is. I'm trying to turn all the way down. James can get really close. [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: It's freezing in Mary's mind. Yeah. Yeah. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: I didn't say anything. In here. That's what I said. It's freezing in here. So, anyway, so they wanted to come before the committee and just talk to us about Turning Point as a whole in the network. But, Tracy, I'm gonna turn it over to you. Welcome. There's nothing in the capital bill It is, it's just a time to get updated on how the Recovery Network is. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Okay. Welcome. Thank you. So I wrote my testimony today, which a lot of times I wing it, so I'm good to read. My name is Tracy Hauck. I am the executive director of the Turning Point Center in Rutland, Vermont. I'm also a person in long term recovery and will be celebrating twelve years this May. I would like to thank Chairperson Emmons and this committee for the opportunity to testify today in support of recovery partners of Vermont's ask for an increase of one point six million to our base funding for Vermont's local recovery organizations in the fiscal year twenty six budget. We do have slides. We're not presenting them today, but I believe you all have them that refer to this. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: And just to clarify for the committee, one point six that's being requested is in the general fund and appropriations committee. It's not us. Yep. And I'm gonna ask this little question. Was it included in the governor's proposed f y twenty six budget? It was not. Nothing once? [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: Yes, sir. Nothing at all? [Member Brian Minier]: There are things that are in there related to recovery, but not what not the ads that were Yes. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Okay. It's not good. So recovery organizations are local self directed inclusive organizations that offer peer led services and support to help people realize the power they have to break free from their addiction. We meet individuals where they are at without judgment or stigma to help them develop a recovery plan. I've been the director of the Turning Point Center where my recovery journey began, and I got my recovery through the Turning Point Center, for the past ten years. Over this time, recovery centers have made tremendous growth, yet the demand for recovery coaching continues to rise with the opioid public health emergency and alcohol use disorder. Currently, recovery coaches provide services from our local recovery centers in emergency rooms, with outpatient treatment programs such as IOP, with law enforcement, in public schools and colleges, as part of multidisciplinary outreach teams, and most recently in correctional facilities and at probation and parole. In addition to one to one coaching, coaches also facilitate recovery support groups in the recovery centers and off-site at various community organizations. They provide Narcan training to community partners, individuals, and have also become part of the training curriculum for the Vermont State Police Academy and for the Vermont Corrections Academy. We've had recent requests for recovery coaches to provide services off-site at local MAT providers so they can be available to individuals who continue to struggle with recovery and also to collaborate with our local birthing center. That's specific to us in Rutland. I can't speak for other centers, but you know, those that expands our outreach. I mean, we're gonna be spending two hours k. A week to start in Bradford Psychiatric Associates, which is now a nonprofit. It's gonna be called Meadow Brook Health Services, offer MAT, mental health support, primary care, plus AccuDetox, plus all kinds of other modalities. They're really growing. But they they would like coaches to be present when they hold their groups, which is, like, ten groups a week, and also to be available with people that are having trouble passing their drug tests. So see. Sorry. I'm just gonna find my spot. The state funding, so what this is gonna while these developments are wonderful, the reality is this work will require more recovery coaches than we currently have. The state funding we received in fiscal year twenty twenty five to expand our recovery coaching services around the state is working. We have scaled this resource significantly in the past year. Yet with the current demand, we will need many more skilled recovery coaches than we have. Many of our recovery coaches are stretched thin, working in multiple program areas at once, which makes it difficult to fully expand and develop each program to its fullest potential. Most of the recovery centers are poised and ready to expand services, but lack the revenue to do this without state support. Our recovery organizations wanna have an established presence at every doorway an individual struggling with SUD may go through. An increase in base funding for recovery organizations would provide us the opportunity to extend hours of operation, match external funding sources to further increase services, and offer competitive wages to attract and retain a skilled workforce. More trained recovery coaches means a better concentration on specific programs effectively making them more impactful. This is how we plan to spend a portion of our one point six million request. This work has a direct impact on people's lives. Thank you again for this opportunity, and we would greatly appreciate your support for this funding. And I think there's one other statement I wanna make. When I talk about, you know, most of the recovery centers, their staffing is all recovery coaches. So when you talk about doing these groups and providing outreach and being where the people are, it takes time. It takes hours. But I also wanna under I want you to understand fully what the recovery coaching relationship looks like. When someone comes in seeking a recovery coach, they get matched up with a coach. Generally, what that is is you set up a meeting with them. You meet once a week, generally for an hour. It could be more often than that if they're struggling. But when you think about all those hours of actually providing recovery coaching and more people providing services, and then all the other things that we do, I have a staff of about thirteen people. I have them running all over the place. You know, but we need to be able to train and develop more coaches out of the people that we're serving and build that workforce and give them opportunities to do the work. And that takes time, but they are the perfect candidates to mold and get to this. But when we don't have any positions open because all our funding is tapped into what we got, makes it hard to have them move forward. Thank you. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Thank you. Yeah. Questions? [Member Conor Casey]: Connor? How's the recruiting staff going these days? It feels like every sector, it's pretty tough to find qualified people. Do you have a lot of vacancies generally? Or [Witness Tracy Hauck]: It is. I mean, I I can only speak for my center. I don't post for positions at my center. My center staff has all come from people that have received services from us and have kind of wanted to become recovery coaches. Right. So it's people that have started out as receiving recovery coaching, volunteering, maybe getting a, you know, like, a front desk reception job that is a noncoaching job part time. And then when I we feel they're ready, they're the right fit, they they can support all paths of recovery, then we have them go to the Recovery Coach Academy. And then depending on the funding, then we can that's what we can give them for a job. [Member Conor Casey]: Fantastic. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Brian? [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: What about you just said all paths of recovery. Can you say more about how would it like to be? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: We support people that are practicing harm reduction, if they're on maintenance, if they wanna give up using heroin and crack, but they may still drink, they may still smoke marijuana. We don't ever shun them away. Right? I look at it as the process of as they gain more back, they're gonna be more mindful. They have to have a recovery program whether they practice abstinence or on MAT or a harm reduction model. So we just support them anyway, you know, that and and the idea is for them to change the behaviors because, ultimately, that's what people want people that have addictions to do is to change those behaviors. [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: Okay. Thanks. Yes. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Questions, thoughts, Sean? [Member Shawn Sweeney]: How what's the percentage of people who are, you know, are dealing with alcohol use disorder? Very high percentage. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Very high. I don't have stats readily to give you, but I know, like, with the emergency room department, I think the majority of people they see in there are people that struggle with alcohol use. And that is one of the kinda overlooked things now that the opioid crisis has gone on, but it is still huge. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Same. Two thirds of [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Two thirds of Bennington. [Speaker 7 ]: Consistently from any channels. From so turning point in Bennington, it's sixty six percent on [Witness Dylan Johnson]: average Wow. [Speaker 7 ]: All the time. And that's people we see in the emergency room. That's referrals from the police. That's, refusals of transport for EMS. That's probation and parole. That's DCF involvement. It's every sector alcohol dominates. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: And it's also it's not if somebody has an alcohol use disorder and somebody has an opioid use, it's not you don't have one or the other. There's many people that have both. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. I was wondering how much of that is intertwined. Mhmm. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Yeah. There's a lot of it that's intertwined. And and when you think about when when you're, you know, when you have an addiction, you know, your reliance on that substance is to wipe away the stuff that's going on in your head and the emotions that you have to deal with. So if you're gonna give up using crack, say, but you still drink, you know, the the risk of death is not so imminent with drinking. Right? And you still have all those negative thoughts and the stigma and the shame and all of that that goes through your head. So it's very easy to turn to another substance for substitution. [Member Shawn Sweeney]: Thank you. You're welcome. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So are you finding it difficult when it's I don't wanna use the term co occurring because that brings in another issue of mental health. But are you finding it difficult to really help folks when they're both mixing alcohol as well as opioid use? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Yeah. I think because of all the tainted substances in the opioid, I mean, we've seen since, you know, COVID, I mean, we've seen people that we've known that struggle with substance use that would come to our center periodically. We've seen tremendous mental health changes that have happened because of fusing crack and all the tainted substances that are in it, which make it to a point where they're not even like the same person that you've seen before. They have a lot of paranoia. They have they there's just a lot of different behaviors that, you know, we have to take into account the safety of our organization. And if they're in there, what you know, it it's it's tough, and it's difficult to get them the services they need to deal with the mental health issues. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So in dealing with the alcohol piece and then the opioid piece, is it across all age groups, or are you seeing more of the alcohol in the older age groups? And then in your younger age group, is it more of a combination of alcohol and opioid, or does it not matter? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: I don't think it I think it's across all I think it's just it's changing all the time. Right? I I think it's affecting I I worry about youth. You know? I I really wanna get into the schools, but we hit roadblocks with getting into our schools and [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: From those schools? Mhmm. From those schools? Yeah. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Yep. They don't wanna really I don't know. It's sort of like they think you're introducing ideas to students. When, you know, when I did a resource fair at Rellin Middle School, this was, like, two years ago, and I was talking to the principal there, and she had asked us to have a booth there when they were having parent teacher conferences. And when I was talking to her, she said she knew for a fact there were about five students in in school that year that had lost a parent to an overdose that year. So what hits me is what is that child seeing? What have they have what behaviors have been modeled for them? You know, the stigma and the shame and, you know, the likelihood of them going down the same path is very high. And I think I worry about kids going to parties with all the tainted substances. Somebody's gonna bring something. The secondary trauma is going to happen if there's an overdose and they're not supposed to be at the party. Why not teach them about Narcan and just have open conversations about this? Normalize it. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So, Brian, did you have your hand up? No? [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: I did not. I did it a long time ago. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Oh, I didn't see it. Okay. I changed the mic. [Member Conor Casey]: I was just gonna just [Witness Robert Blaze (via Zoom)]: to help understand how the program how are you how do the way you do things similar and dissimilar from, like, say, [Witness Tracy Hauck]: AAA? Because Because we support we are not just focused on twelve step. We are not we we're not a sponsor to help somebody work through the twelve steps. We are there to really guide them to the resources and what will speak to them and what they can relate to and do. So whether it's just recovery coaching, and I I mean, I've got some people. I've been recovery coaching now for, like, two or three years. Mhmm. You know? So the relationship can go on, but the idea is to help them figure out what their supports are gonna be outside of that recovery coaching so that they can it's kind of like a bird growing up and ready to fly out of the nest. What do they develop for supports around them? And I believe people have to have multiple areas of support to turn to. Peer support is the most easiest because you don't get any backlash really from, you know, if it's clinical and you're complaining about your therapist, then there might you know, or you're causing disruption in groups, you get booted out. It's not the way it is at centers. Right? We really try to help them focus on how to deal with those things as they're happening in the best way possible. [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: Thank you. Yeah. [Member Brian Minier]: I was just gonna add that our our approach to recovery is all adds to recovery. So no two people are gonna have the same path to recovery. So some might embrace the AA or narcotics anonymous. Others might find yoga and meditation and some other alternative health approaches as their way. We're open to all that. Our job is to make sure they have a plan and then a plan of their recovery. What are the what is the things that they need to do that are really gonna help them, you know, in deepen their recovery? [Member Conor Casey]: Yeah. Tracy, do you mind talking about how you would work with folks who might be experiencing homelessness? You know? It seems like, you know, you you need consistency in a program like that, but you're at a really uncertain period of your life if you're unhoused. Right? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: We deal with a lot of people that are homeless. We have a lot of people that come into our center. Our in our center, we have we have morphed around just trying to be able to help them make connections to providers that can help them with housing. And, also, just explaining the reality, there isn't much for housing in Robin. Right? And if they go to rehab, we talk to them about in-depth about, well, when you get done rehab, talk about going to Grace House or B4 House or Jenna's Promise or McBee House, which are transitional housing to give them a little more time to work on a more permanent solution going forward. We're always promoting those as as steps for them to go. But we provide food. You know, we we get food down at the center to be able to hand out to people. We work with the outreach care team that has Rutland mental health and the law enforcement and the free clinic. And one of our coaches, they go out to all the homeless communities in Rutland and just try to meet people where they're at and see what they need in that moment. [Member Conor Casey]: So it could be Fantastic. So you'd be, like, up at the Cortina in there and Actually, [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Cortina's closed. So nobody's there. But it's going to the homeless encampments where they know people are. Or where they're going, there's a Methodist church that is called the comfort zone that offers breakfast and lunch to homeless people. So there's a large population of homeless people there. So they go there on a regular basis, just mental health services, whatever they need. You know? If they need medical care and that's a big as a priority, then that's what you provide to them in the hope that you build that trust, and then they will come for more support. Excellent. Thanks. You're welcome. Sean? [Member Shawn Sweeney]: Tracy, is there any you know, just asking, is there any spiritual element to what you're doing with these people or not really? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Yeah. There I mean, there is we talk about that. You know? Spirituality, you kinda have to have some spirituality. You know? Because most people that struggle with addiction, it's very self serving, and everything is about them. So they're the higher power. So helping them when they've decided to quit drugs or alcohol to be able to get to that point takes time afterwards. It's it's not something that comes to them the minute they put down drugs and alcohol. They have to learn it. They have to recognize it, and they have to go through experiences where they where it's, oh, you know, like, I'm recognizing this about myself and want to change it. So it's it's a long ongoing process. Thanks. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So, Tracy, I know that you've brought some folks with you, and then we have someone on Zoom with us. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Robert Blaze on Zoom. Yes. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Can you [Witness Robert Blaze (via Zoom)]: guys hear me okay? [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Yes. Can you just Robert, can you just identify yourself for the record, please? [Speaker 9 ]: Robert Blaze. Seven years of severity. I celebrated in November from drugs, and I just and I just celebrated a year of from alcohol on the twenty ninth of January. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Alright. There you go. So talk about the talk about the substitution. [Speaker 9 ]: There you go. Exactly. I was over here, and you talk about that. And what happened with me was I got I met Tanya in Turning Point in two thousand sixteen while incarcerated due to drugs, and it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me in my life. They had they helped me stay sober and gave me an avenue of a place to go when I got out to for people that actually cared about people like me. And I was able to meet with a recovery coach once a week while I was incarcerated in Raleigh Marble Valley, John Howard. He's no longer with the center, but I still keep in contact with him. And then what happened, I got complacent within life like most addicts or most people do, and I fell off and started drinking heavy again over a year ago, and it got me back in trouble. But when I got out, I immediately came to the service center, and I immediately got myself a recovery coach again, Mike Daley, who works here. Knowing how important it was to have a recovery coach. And I'm just teaching myself new new ways of trying to not to get complacent this time. Some of the things that John used to do with me is we would go to breakfast or we'd go and have a coffee. They weren't always in the office, you know, and we'd do activities together. He was the one that taught me about higher power. My higher power is is hikes, being in the woods. That's talking about spi spirituality. That's where I go for my higher power when I'm having a bad day as I try to go for a hike and to get out of my head. I can't say enough good things about recovery coaching. And and like Tracy said, there isn't enough of them. I was actually asked today. I was by the judge because I'm in federal treatment court for this last incident. And the lady that works at BPA here in Rutland and the judge both both had mentioned that maybe I should think of a, career change myself because I I've been asked in the past to be a recovery coach. I've done construction my whole life, and it has been something that I've thought about, especially a lot lately because I get a lot out of trying to tell people my story about how much recovery has helped my life and keep me on the right path. And my telling my story and talking to others helps me stay sober. And I I think you'll get that same answer across the board from a lot of recovery coaches. It's not just about coming in and sit in a in a chair for an hour and just talking. A lot of recovery coaches do things differently, finding activities and and, you know, being productive. And that's just if you can find yourself a productive way to do things, it helps keep you out of your mind and fall falling back into old habits. And, I've had struggled with alcohol my whole life at at an early age of ten years old. And even before when I was getting sober off from drugs, I was still struggling with alcohol, but I'm doing it now. So that's all that matters at the end of the day. And I didn't ignore Turning Point or how I got there to begin with. I knew this was a place I had to go as soon as I was released in November, and this is the first place I came. I was out two days and came right here. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Well, good for you, Robert. Well, that's That'd be a future employee. I don't know. Never know. Never know. Thank you. Are there questions for Robert from the committee for that? [Member Shawn Sweeney]: No. I just think that was a great job interview. So, you know, we'd [Witness Dylan Johnson]: like if I do something [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: wrong here. [Speaker 9 ]: I just want days off to go golfing. That's it. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: There you go. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: We can be pretty flexible, Robert. Well, well, we're we're we're we're we're we're [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're [Witness Tracy Hauck]: we're we're [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're we're [Witness Tracy Hauck]: we're we're we're we're we're we [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Good. So, Dylan, if you could introduce him on record. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: I will do that. And I just this is my first time ever doing something like this. I wrote something and kind of like his, it's it's about my story and how I ended up here. So good afternoon. My name is Dylan Johnson. I'm a recovery coach, for Turning Point Center of Bennington. I am also in long term recovery. I am about six years sober [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Mhmm. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: From heroin and cocaine. I'm here today as as well to request an additional one point six million in our base funding, and I would just like to start with a little summary of my own story. My journey began in Baltimore, Maryland, where I was born and raised. I had a wonderful childhood. I have a loving and supportive family to this day. And in spite of that, I still ended up using cocaine in my late teens and heroin at age twenty one. Within a year of that, I was, at this point, living in California. I lost everything. So by twenty two, my job, friends, they had an intervention with my father came out there. I was losing family. And I I was living in California, and my father flew out, and they had an intervention. And he took me back to Baltimore to live with him and try to get sober. However, even with my father supporting me, and I will say Baltimore is probably the worst place to get sober in the United States, I quickly relapsed again, and I wound up homeless in West Baltimore where I was for several years. I ended up getting multiple petty possession charges and a couple felony intent to distributes. This led to me being put on probation in Baltimore in the summer of two thousand nineteen, and I once again moved back in with my father. He never wavered in trying to help me. And so I got put on probation. And in probation in Baltimore, it's a lot different than probation up here. I was never offered any recovery programming such as one on one recovery coaching. I don't even know if that exists in Maryland. My PO would and this is not to denigrate her. She would forget my name and background every week and would have to recheck it when I come in. I mean, she was just overworked, and they were understaffed. Mhmm. I just wanted to show, you know, how important recovery programming in probation and parole is. So within a few weeks of being placed on probation, probably due in part to a lack of support, I got it in my mind to relapse. And And so when my dad left for work one day, I used and immediately overdose. If my father hadn't forgotten his wallet, I would not be here today speaking to you. He came back. He found me. He called nine one one. And thirty minutes later, I was being Narcan multiple times in an ambulance on the way to the hospital. After a few hours, they said I was good to go and discharged me. No recovery coaching in the hospital in Baltimore either. A few weeks after this, my father had a heart attack in his sleep, and I found him unresponsive the next day. He was my best friend. He had never wavered in the support of my recovery, and losing him was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. I had made up my mind I was gonna get sober no matter what. My mother came down to Maryland, begged the PO to transfer me to Vermont where she lived, and they finally acquiesced. Once I touched base in Vermont, I quickly realized that there were different ways of doing things. My PO, Michael Doheny, implored me to get connected with Turning Point and with Savita. I went and introduced myself and was immediately connected with Bennington's recovery community. I started going to therapy recovery groups and utilized Turning Point's connections and programming. Soon after, I went to community college. I got a degree in behavioral science and applied to intern at Turning Point for a work experience class. I was hired by this wonderful woman a week after. And a few years later, after successfully completing my probation without incident, I even began working in probation. Today, I'm a recovery coach in our center and in the emergency department. I'm in charge of our data collection. I used to manage our outreach team. I lead our probation and parole group every week as well as one on one coaching with individuals in corrections. These programs are are the cutting edge of recovery work in Vermont. It is a great honor and privilege to be allowed in these spaces and work with guys in corrections. Often, these individuals are some of the least served and most disenfranchised in our communities. Having the background that I do, I'm able to connect with them across our shared experiences for an alternative perspective and way of living. It has given my own life meaning and fulfillment. I have learned about the need for recovery centers, communities, programs after living in places like Baltimore with little to no support. Hopefully, my story has demonstrated how important the work these centers do often at very little cost to the taxpayer, and it cannot be understated how crucial connection to the recovery community is. That's why I'm here. Thank you. Thanks, Andrea. No problem. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Oh, I do have a couple of questions. I [Witness Dylan Johnson]: know. Let's try. I I was told to speak slowly, but I heard somebody say time was running out. So I kinda had [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: to fine. What's [Speaker 9 ]: that. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So oh, Savita? Yeah. What's Savita? [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Savita is an MAT program, so medication assisted treatment. I I tried many, many times in Baltimore to get sober without MAT and would fail. It was really, really helpful to me to get on a Suboxone program. I got into it by telling them I don't wanna be on this forever. So let's have, like, a taper plan and all of that, which I think every person's different. You know, I know plenty of people who being on Suboxone for the rest of their life is the lesser evil. And and so we support that too, but it's a MAT program. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: And it's out in community? [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Yeah. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. But your husband's boat. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: And we work with them now. And when they do intakes, they they page us, and we come over and sit with them there and and do intakes with them as well. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So when you go into the facilities and you're working with folks, how many of the folks you're working with are in the m a? I'm still gonna call it the MAT. It's now m o u d. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Oh, I apologize. You still call it. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Some of them still go back to MAT because it seems to be really how many of the folks when you're working within a correctional facility or on the MAT program within [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Why Yeah. I'm in a we lead a group right now on probation with eight guys, and I would say I know four of them are on three of them are on Suboxone. One goes to Fort Adams for the methadone clinic every day. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So these are are they on furlough? They're they've reentered the community? [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Some probation, some parole, but [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Okay. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Yeah. I think one guy is on furlough. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So did they talk about how it was when they were incarcerated and how the MAT program was operating and then when they transitioned back into the community? Is is it seamless, or are there some real issues there? [Witness Dylan Johnson]: From the very anecdotal limited, exposure that I've had thus far with the small group of guys, I I think for most of them, it I correct me if I'm wrong, but it has changed in the last couple of years where now they're getting Suboxone and whatnot in jail. I think one guy had trouble getting out where he didn't have a plan. They did not kinda set up getting him that prescription after he got out, but most of them seem to have had a pretty good transition. [Speaker 7 ]: We had hiccups. Yeah. We definitely had hiccups where people's Medicaid is turned on [Witness Dylan Johnson]: And then they're out. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Let's see [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: if the Medicaid [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Yeah. To the [Speaker 7 ]: one thing. So that's an issue because Right. If they're coming out, you know, and they've been prescribed MAT, then that means they're addicted to it now. So if they don't get their dose on time, they're gonna start to feel weird. They're gonna go back. Relapse. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: They're gonna relapse. [Speaker 7 ]: Yep. And [Witness Dylan Johnson]: it's expensive if you don't have Medicare. Very, very, very expensive. [Speaker 7 ]: So we've had to, you know, patchwork and pick up people's prescriptions for them and work it out later. We've done that sometimes. Savita will see them without charge, and they'll figure it out later, but they still have to get the script from the pharmacy. That's where they're going. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Some of hub for it. Yeah. They have to get a script from a medical provider. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: So some of the I don't know if there's time to I the years that we've been doing coaching at Marble Valley, what we've seen, we've been in there since two thousand and sixteen, and there's been a lot of individuals we've served that didn't have opioid use disorder that ended up on MAT. That's an added problem. Right? Yeah. That that's another thing. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Come on. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: And then the Subutex that they prescribe in the facility, they want the Subutex when they get out. There's no MAT provider. It's gonna give them Subutex unless they get a documented allergy to Suboxone. So that barrier alone, where are they gonna get they, you know, they they walk down the street to our center, and they got a script for so many days. Where are they gonna get Subutex? Most of the time, they tried Better Life Partners, which I think is gonna give them Subutex. They don't. That's a harm reduction model. It's not one we recommend. We recommend in person. Go to an MAT clinic. But, you know, they want Subutex. They don't want Suboxone. Mhmm. So then you go through that issue. And then just making sure they get an appointment with an MAT provider. Bradford Psychiatric Associates is real good if someone's on Suboxone. I can call them and get somebody an appointment pretty quick. Can you make [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: a switch from Subutex to Suboxone? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: You can. You can. It it's just they don't want it. They're used to. Yeah. Yeah. [Speaker 7 ]: So Digger Irving a while ago, maybe last year, that talked about the percentage of incarcerated people who have identified SUD. Right? It's very high. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Seventy percent. Extremely high. [Speaker 7 ]: And how many of those people are prescribed Suboxone? Like, a big chunk, as Tracy said. A huge chunk. And what did we just say? Alcohol's our dominant problem. Not to say that it isn't polysubstance, if there are other things involved, but not every person that's being prescribed Suboxone has an opioid use disorder Right. Which we find concerning [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Mhmm. [Speaker 7 ]: Because now they're indifferent to that. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Absolutely. And that sometimes it's tougher. I've heard from people that have been meaning of Suboxone that it's it's sometimes harder than coming off of there. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: If you just rip the Band Aid off. That's why the the benefit of both of Methadone and Suboxone is it's clinically administered so you can taper. And if you do do it properly, you'll have no Right. Symptoms. But if you're taking eight milligrams of Suboxone and stop taking it, people will tell you it is the worst withdrawals. Yeah. Adioclonal. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Yeah. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: But, again, it's still better than using whatever drugs [Witness Tracy Hauck]: you're trying to do it. Do it. People that I mean, we've had people that get out of jail and they're, you know, they're on maintenance, and then they don't wanna be on maintenance for a long period of time. Right? I wanna get off. This is not what I wanted. But the idea is to really work with them about you wanna be sure things are fairly stable in your life at this point when you start to do that taper. Because any kind of stuff that's in flux is gonna make it much harder to do that taper. So teaching patients is huge. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Other questions, comments, thoughts? [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: I get yeah. The other fellow talked about, you know, needing something that was higher or whatever. I wonder if you have something similar. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: I am an atheist. But my if I was to say, mine's I I I know. I I like, we're talking about here these different modalities. Yeah. I was never a big twelve step person. My higher power in that context would just be my loved ones, my family, my friends, and trying to do right by them after a decade of not doing right. [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: And also I'm talking about your father's most part of it. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: It is what it is. Right? Well I know he's I know he sees me in some way. Right? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: That's right. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: You're blowing through the wind. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Question. Same thing. Will, do you have [Speaker 9 ]: something? Don't. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Is there anyone do you need us? I just need one of you. Who? [Member Brian Minier]: Alright. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Alright. Sorry. Sorry. What are you laughing at? What number is this, Troy? [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Yes. What number is Ben [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: is it with me and Ben? Is there anyone else, Tracy? Nope. Yes. Thank you for what you do. [Witness Robert Blaze (via Zoom)]: Just on this nice lady's point. Like, we learned upstairs in human services over the last few years that if you're, say, on heroin and so you're coming off and you're a butte or, you know, whatever, that's a step down, whatever. But there are people, I forget which country it is, that the only thing that they have that they're addicted to is buprenorphine. And so if you're not if so if you're being introduced to these, you know, Suboxone or whatever and you weren't on it to begin with, you you just created a crisis that didn't exist. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: So [Speaker 7 ]: And some people want to be. I'm just one of those people [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. [Speaker 7 ]: Who went and did not use MIT. [Vice Chair James Gregoire]: Yeah. But I don't know, like, [Witness Robert Blaze (via Zoom)]: the people who aren't even they aren't even higher. It's just saying that people are coming in [Speaker 7 ]: for now. It keeps me [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: twice, isn't it? Right. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Well, also too, I think a lot of people in jail are requesting it because you're sitting in jail, you're like, what what am I doing? So, yeah, I got it. Oh, you need? [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Yeah. See, they will supply when we started the program. Like you said, some guys would have never done anything before. Yeah. That was not the original information. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: But I'll still say But [Witness Tracy Hauck]: when you also think about the peer matters. The peer influence in the correction of facility. If you have other people that are, you know, talking about, oh, you know, and get views and you, you know, you're feeling better and that stuff. I mean, if if people are struggling and it's an alcohol addiction, they're gonna be seeking something [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: that is Absolutely. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: That's just the reality of it. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: Well, I appreciate everyone's testimony. This is very helpful. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Thank you very much. Always appreciate the time. [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: You're welcome. Thank you for bringing the sunshine Robert on Zoom. Thank you for having me. [Witness Tracy Hauck]: Thank you. So we're on the [Chair Alice M. Emmons]: YouTube folks, so just hold back. So after the floor, please come back. Okay. We got some work to do after the floor. [Witness Dylan Johnson]: Okay. Yeah.

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