SmartTranscript of House Corrections&Institutions 2025-01-17 1:00

[Chair ]: This is health corrections and institutions. We are back. It's Friday afternoon on January seventeenth, and this is our one o'clock meeting. Before we start, I just got a close finalist from the commissioner b BTS, In our capital bill of last year, we asked for a report that was to be due. Oh, when was the report supposed to be due? January Fifty. January fifteenth, which was Tuesday. Wednesday. And they are asking for an extension of this report to be due. It pertains to the women's reentry facility. And when you remember, we had a whole list of things for folks who were here last year. I don't feel like digging out my bill. But I had a whole list of things that had to be recorded in terms of location, being near public transportation, looking at the workforce, state owned land versus, probably purchasing land. So they're still working on addressing all of those requirements. And, so they're asking for an extension on that report until February seventh of this year, which would also give us if it's to February seventh, that will still give us time to work on this whole issue because the budget doesn't come in until the twenty eighth of January, and that's when we would really be getting into the women's correctional facility replacement. Some will. So we're okay. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. I just have a comment real quick. I'm assuming is this report what guys are good or who's [Chair ]: It's BS. Oh, BS. BS. [Eric Pembroke ]: BS. There be anything that comes out of it that we would need to, you know, put in statute or legislation? [Chair ]: Well, it will play into when we do the capital bill. [Eric Pembroke ]: Okay. So it's pertaining to the capital. Okay. [Chair ]: It's all on the capital bill. [Eric Pembroke ]: Okay. Okay. [Chair ]: It'll be all on the capital bill in that. Okay. And I know the town of Essex is still working on this as well too. Sean? [Eric Pembroke ]: What's your recommendation? [Chair ]: I think it's okay to extend it to the seventh Do you need a motion? No. I just wanted to get a feel of the committee. Yes. Alright. Yeah. [Eric Pembroke ]: That's fine. Okay. [Chair ]: Paul, can you relate that to your boss? Yeah. And Eric, you too? [Eric Pembroke ]: Absolutely. Okay. One two punch? [Chair ]: I want [Speaker 2 ]: to [Chair ]: I just wanna commit. I don't wanna blindsided committee. [Eric Pembroke ]: That's right. That's that's right. I'm good. [Speaker 2 ]: As long as no one asks questions. [Chair ]: Well Yeah. Let's go. We're on a roll. Eric Pembroke. [Eric Pembroke ]: For the record for the record, Eric Pembroke, director of planning and property management within VGS. [Chair ]: VGS does all those flowers too in front of the state house. They're all responsible. Yeah. [Eric Pembroke ]: So on behalf of commissioner Manoli, I will be kind of walking you guys through what we do with our space. So I don't know which one I can call if you [Chair ]: want to go [Eric Pembroke ]: to the next slide. So sporting government operations. So BGS, our mission is to provide space for all agencies, departments, branches of government. We maintain an inventory of own space. We try to optimize the use of our space and most importantly utilize existing space that we own whenever as possible. Space allocation is driven by from a program. Wow, programmatic needs of the various agencies and departments and branches of government. Our goal is obviously to make it as less disruptive to those agencies and departments to maximize programmatic synergies within those agencies and departments and and really be strategic in the use of our state's own space. [Chair ]: So before it's one fifteen, I'm gonna ask. [Eric Pembroke ]: All the all the questions you want. [Chair ]: So I just want, you know, to give the committee a kind of a thumbnail sketch of what is under BTS' suit, your buildings versus [Eric Pembroke ]: I'm gonna get to that. [Chair ]: Some other buildings. [Eric Pembroke ]: Absolutely. Okay. We're gonna get to that. We have a slide that actually breaks down our Shut up. Portfolio. We'll roll [Chair ]: to the next to the next one. [Eric Pembroke ]: So we actually deployed space management strategies and some standards. Some Some of our standards are open office is to create an open office environment. I'm having a little problem on Friday speaking today. [Chair ]: Face briefing. [Eric Pembroke ]: Private and semi private offices and other flexible working collaborative factors. We do try to, obviously again, which I'll keep stating is utilize data and space whenever possible. And we have implemented, one hundred and fifty square feet per person. That was something that wasn't done until the last few years. So working space per person that helps us, and I don't wanna use this optimized space, not densify space. Feel free to ask questions or just three. The The next one is kind of an overview of of our portfolio, which we spoke about, when when the commissioner kicked off kind of the meeting of all of our teams. So we have three hundred and twenty six buildings statewide. We have two thirty four that are state owned roughly three million square feet and currently the lease portfolio ebbs and flows we're at ninety four with about eight hundred and sixty six thousand square feet And then the little graph kind of shows you where we're placed all over the state of Vermont. Madam Chair, if the next slide should help answer that question for you, which breaks down our demographic. Office, this gets really granular so it breaks it down by general office, client service, corrections, courthouses and then you can get into all of the other little components that we do support. So all of these BGS supports help find space for. [Chair ]: So when I'm just thinking of all of us sitting around here. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Chair ]: You go home, you drive through different communities. You were driving around your own community. There's buildings there. There's functions. There's state function in different ways. So a courthouse is under BTS's jurisdiction. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Chair ]: A police barracks, state police barracks, is under your jurisdiction. How about, National Guard Armory? [Eric Pembroke ]: No. [Chair ]: In whose jurisdiction is that? [Eric Pembroke ]: That is under the military branch. Yes. [Chair ]: State hospital? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Chair ]: And a health lab? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. All under BGS. [Chair ]: All under BGS. I'm trying to think what are the buildings out there. How about transportation buildings, like SALT barrages or the district barrage for your transport? [Eric Pembroke ]: Nope. Those are under AOTs. [Chair ]: So see. Okay. Now what am I missing here? [Eric Pembroke ]: You're the agency of transportation state, though. That's We do. Yes. You have a We house our general office space. Yeah. [Chair ]: Yeah. That's the national life. Yeah. Yeah. There. [Eric Pembroke ]: And Barricity Place and few others. Yeah. [Chair ]: So if we have a department of health, we have a DCF office in our area. Sometimes they're in a state office building, which we are. Yes. Sometimes it could be in a leased spot. [Eric Pembroke ]: That's correct. [Chair ]: DMV? DMV. Yes. The The main one. [Eric Pembroke ]: One twenty Acreso Street, I think. No. I mean DMV. That would [Connor ]: be mute. [Eric Pembroke ]: Like, the opposite. Yes. But those those are under ours. Absolutely. So you can see we have a very diverse portfolio. We we are from garage space to general office space to specialized space like courthouse and correctional facilities. [Speaker 4 ]: Is culture like museums and parks and monuments or what's cultural? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. Exactly. [Chair ]: Well, that's how about the historic sites? Is that under you or is that under That [Eric Pembroke ]: is not under us. [Chair ]: That's under historic preservation. So so your museums that are under that are not under [Eric Pembroke ]: No. Those would be fall under exactly like. [Chair ]: The Bennington Monument's not a state. That one's a little no. [Eric Pembroke ]: That one's We we are engaged and involved. I don't know if if if where that would that may be the one point one eight percent other. [Chair ]: I was [Speaker 2 ]: gonna say you've done little pieces [Eric Pembroke ]: of Yeah. [Chair ]: The vet the vets' home is not. [Eric Pembroke ]: No. That is correct. [Chair ]: State owned. Just trying to put it in context so people I was just in forest and parks and all the forest and parks, that's not BTS. That is correct. I'm just trying to think what else is in the capital building. Just so people can have a concept of what's under BTS. [Eric Pembroke ]: May I ask what kind of research we do? Two point five, two point six percent? I would think that is, but that one is probably the research is probably and I don't know why it may be tagged this, but I'm thinking that is the, Randolph lab, the agricultural lab that's in at VTC campus. Mhmm. That may be what that one is. [Chair ]: Which one was that? The lab? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. Which [Chair ]: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because we had the lab up in Waterbury. [Eric Pembroke ]: And there's also And I [Chair ]: got just her lab. So Right. The health [Eric Pembroke ]: we did as two. [Chair ]: With the, environmental ag lab was flooded out Yeah. With Irene. So we worked up with VTC, a situation that we could build on their land, and we built it down in Randolph, but also it could be used for their students too if for curriculum. For that. That was a heavy lift. Zero head lift. [Eric Pembroke ]: We'll go to the next slide, just laying in kind of my happy space as optimization efforts. Our goal is to sell antiquated and efficient state owned buildings and or relinquish if it's also leased space. Currently, we have permission to sell nine Baldwin, fourteen sixteen Baldwin, and one ten State Street. [Chair ]: And how's Baldwin Street is right down here. [Speaker 2 ]: And how's all that going? [Eric Pembroke ]: It's One [Chair ]: ten got flooded. [Eric Pembroke ]: One ten got flooded. So that one, we pause. [Speaker 2 ]: I thought for everyone else to hear. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. Nine Baldwin, we actually just, really started to market heavily and have folks that are already looking to tour. Fourteen sixteen has come with some challenges. It really is. It's a it's an old home that got added onto, and it's broken up into little chunks. So it's it's going to be a difficult sell, but we are we're working diligently to do so. So [Chair ]: Which one is closest to the state house? Nine? Nine. And then fourteen sixteen is on as you're going out Baldwin Street in the state house side. Two sixteen is on On [Eric Pembroke ]: the left side. On the [Chair ]: left side. [Eric Pembroke ]: Nine is on the right side. Yeah. I think nine will probably move fairly quickly. [Chair ]: And that's all within our capital complex? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. It is. So why do we wanna sell it and not keep it? Because it's old and antiqu not old. It's antiquated inefficient stateroom. So if you if if you'd when I go back to a hundred per person, if you look at how you can densify that place, you you you can never get to that number without spending more money than it's worth. [Chair ]: And I think the excess [Eric Pembroke ]: I think that I actually had a presentation on that, which I think it was probably around four fifty, five fifty per person. So from a dollar per square foot, it just doesn't make sense. [Chair ]: We have we have, like, boards and commissions in there, and then we move them to another space. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. I've [Chair ]: I've been talking about that a little bit. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. No. You but I'm sure you're doing you? Last time missing. I'm sure it's, like, done this presentation before. That's the next one. Actually, after selling thirteen Baldwin, we were able to reduce the footprint into six Baldwin. We created the boards and commission space. So we we moved them into more state owned space, but we were able to optimize and sell an antiquated inefficient state of it. [Chair ]: And for the committee, there's no way they could have sold those buildings without authorities from us. [Eric Pembroke ]: That is correct. We cannot We [Chair ]: kinda held off on some of them this week and make sure that they really vetted more uses besides putting it up on the market. Yes. Can we [Speaker 2 ]: name them after someone before they sell? [Eric Pembroke ]: There's a committee for that. [Chair ]: Only kidding. Only kidding. One sixteen, Mary. [Eric Pembroke ]: So we have four space optimization and modern modernization hybrid office projects that we've done recently. So we have redone the treasury's treasury office. We have redone some lease space for the cannabis control board and also the office of professional regulation. Those sit those two particular ones sit in eighty nine minutes. It's the lease space. So we're able to renegotiate the lease, lower our lease rate, and get the landlord to, fund the modernizing that space. So that was a big one for us. And we've currently just, have done the secretary of state's office. So there was a fourth floor that wasn't used, and we were able to, work with that team to bring in what I call a furniture first solution. So bring in furniture and make it more more user friendly. So so those are some of the projects that we have done lately. We're trying to really use that furniture first approach. You don't have to there's no studs. There's no sheetrock. There's no it is really plug and play. And you can pick it up and take it anywhere you get. Some ongoing efforts. So twenty one, twenty three, and twenty four. One is yeah. We missed twenty two in there somewhere, but that's okay. You know, details. I I followed the slide. So we did we did receive permission to sell one zero eight Cherry Street, which I'm I'm sure some of you are familiar with. [Chair ]: Mhmm. Is that going? [Eric Pembroke ]: It's under a purchase and sale. The prospective buyer has some incentives to close the sale this July, which is exciting. So we were able to relocate everybody out of that building and cons here's my consolidating word into, the Waterbury State Office Complex, and we ended up leasing some space because they did have client facing services that needed to remain in the downtown area into Lakeside. There was a lot of resistance, with staff Yes. Leaving that building. How did that go? It took a lot of change in management. I think it would be interesting to do to to survey them today. I know that any that that moved to Lakeside is very happy. There's a lot more amenities there. It's a it's a much nicer building. Well, that was a that was a low bar. It that was a very low bar. It was a very low bar. You know? And we set ourselves up for success. So, yeah, I it would be interesting to do a survey on how that is today. [Chair ]: Bigger piece is moving the health department, health employees that did not provide client services, and they've done it to the water barrier station. But most people are doing things remotely anyway. [Eric Pembroke ]: It's very, very correct. [Speaker 2 ]: Are they going to keep the name of the building? [Eric Pembroke ]: Open that can on a Friday afternoon. [Mary ]: Yeah. Very, after you're gone, you're not even listening to Yeah. [Chair ]: Yeah. Mary [Eric Pembroke ]: Ann, unfortunately, believe that as soon as they sign on the dotted line, the building will be gone. [Speaker 2 ]: That's what I think. [Eric Pembroke ]: They do have much of [Speaker 4 ]: a reflective virus and that was essential. [Mary ]: Are you allowed to say who's? It's not wise. Only not. [Chair ]: Yeah. That's fine. We can't. Right? [Eric Pembroke ]: Not until it's not until it's signed. [Chair ]: Yeah. You know, I I just wonder about this this system. I'm just gonna throw this out. I know we're in a public venue. How about the name of the building? Yes. After a former commissioner at BGS. You know? But I had a thought when Mary brought this up. John's in Perry. [Eric Pembroke ]: We are actually taking all the signs down. The family has requested some of the signage. [Chair ]: But it is a big it's it's built into the facade of the building at the front. So that one, you can't take down. [Eric Pembroke ]: No. There's some internal signs that we are going to work on pulling down for the family. [Chair ]: Is there a way to document the front of the building with his name on it to also give to the family? Is there a way to document that before it's sold? [Eric Pembroke ]: So I'm I'm absolutely. I'm sure that we can So [Chair ]: because that's that's part of the building itself. It's it's the name is part of the concrete. [Eric Pembroke ]: Absolutely. Yeah. [Speaker 2 ]: And, actually, with the people that are purchasing, and I know you said they're taking it down, could they somehow take the name out, probably? [Chair ]: It's part of the infrastructure that facade that [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. I think it is. It's curved into. [Chair ]: That's absolutely what we are. Into. [Mary ]: Way more details of work. [Eric Pembroke ]: Let's get into [Chair ]: that here. I think that well, this is this is out of respect to the family because they Absolutely. [Mary ]: But I mean the actual technical [Eric Pembroke ]: is taking the building down, being much better. Yeah. We have had conversations with the family, and we can certainly see if that's something they would be interested in. [Chair ]: Document, you know, the front of it. I know that they're gonna get those signs in term line. They already did get one one placard inside, but just to document the front of the building before it's sold when it's still looking decent with John's name [Eric Pembroke ]: there to Yeah. We can certainly work with the family to see if that's something of interest and see what we can do to provide. [Chair ]: They're really struggling with this Yeah. Tremendous. Sure. Doing tremendously with this. Because this is the first time also that we have a building that's been named that is going to change ownership and a different use or turned out. And we we've never come across [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. [Chair ]: The building that we've named after someone. What we what do we do with the name? Interesting. It's the first time. And there's a lot of promotions from the family for this. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. I know. We we wanna stay connected and make sure that we work with them to help that. [Chair ]: So see if you can document the some photos of the name on the witness. Connor? [Connor ]: Shoot. It's after one fifteen. Somebody else was asking somebody Yes. Yeah. So so, like, when I when I was at VSCA, Eric, it's, like, office space politics was the most vicious type of politics. Right? And I remember national life when we went up there, and it was, like, what are the carpet tiles look like? Is it gonna be loud? We have a closet to go in. And it actually it seemed to go better than, like, I thought at the end once people got comfortable with that concept. Right? So I'm kinda wondering how that's, like, working now with the open office thing because I still see, like, a lot of empty space in state government. Right? And I think, like, if you go to Waterbury, some days the complex, it's like The Shining. Right? And then other days, it'll be pretty hotbed. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. Yes. [Connor ]: And, you know, I was talking to an AOT worker last night and she was saying, you know, like, you reserve your desk the week ahead for the next week. And is when you talk about ongoing, is there even more efficient ways we could fill some of these offices? I'll probably get in trouble with taking place by saying this. But, like, do departments share desks with other departments? Or is that kind of sectioned off? It looked like it was, you know? It's So [Eric Pembroke ]: I think that certainly becomes difficult depending on what the agency is and what the if there's HIPAA or other Mhmm. Requirements. So that becomes more difficult. But, certainly, some other some agencies are using the software that you just said. They're reserving their desk, so they can I'm coming in on Tuesday. I can reserve my desk. So multiple people are using the same location throughout the week. So they are doing that, but the sharing across agencies depending on the agencies, it becomes difficult because of those reasons. Mhmm. [Connor ]: Yeah. It just seems tough walking across that complex and seeing so much empty space when you're on institutions. [Eric Pembroke ]: And it depends on what day you go in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On a on a a core day, and it's it's oversold, if you will. Mhmm. You may go in there on a non core day, and they're like, where is everybody? So [Connor ]: So Yes. Straight up. [Eric Pembroke ]: It is a that is a [Speaker 2 ]: almost like last year. Remember, we went in on one of the supposedly one of the busier days, and it was, like, a tenth of the coffee. [Eric Pembroke ]: I could jump to third to the end of last week. One of my challenges. Okay. [Chair ]: After one fifteen. I was thinking [Mary ]: if we let him go through all the things and then answer questions after, he might answer a lot of our questions. [Eric Pembroke ]: That is one of my challenges. It's exactly that. [Chair ]: So the water [Eric Pembroke ]: Senator Casey. [Chair ]: We rebuilt that after Irene flooded the whole area. And we rebuilt that for about eight hundred employees, eight fifty employees. At the time, that was back in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. And we were really looking at people telecommuting. That was the term back then. Because if we moved everybody back that had been dislocated, it would have been about eleven hundred employees. There's over a fast Yes. Employees, and the cost was really creeping up there. So we really worked with the administration and and brought it down to about eight I think it was, like, eight fifty or something. [Eric Pembroke ]: The earth memory is excellent. It's right around that number. [Chair ]: With the understanding that a poor group would be telecommunic. Mhmm. So that place was pretty full. And it's the agency of human services is housed there. So that's where you get into the HIPAA issue. [Eric Pembroke ]: Exactly. [Chair ]: And then COVID hit. Everybody goes to Zoom, and we have office space. And the office space is an open concept. So you don't have the wall to ceiling I mean, floor to ceiling walls. I mean, it's more of an open concept with the goal of having the office space more flexible for use. And, also, we have swing space in there for folks for conference rooms or small meeting rooms, that type of thing. And now it's fairly empty. I mean, we go through there and it's like yeah. And it's a new building. It's brand new because we completed that around fifteen, sixteen. We completed that. And you know, in a six, seven years One of my challenges. Yeah. [Eric Pembroke ]: There's just no one using it? [Chair ]: Well, they're all remote. They're working remotely. So they're not in the office every single day. They may pop in for one day a week, and they may all come in on a Wednesday, and they may stagger that different days. But for the most part, that whole building is empty. We're having to maintain it. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. Well, then that's who maintains that policy that they know that they only go in one day. [Chair ]: Well, that's the individual departments or agencies. [Eric Pembroke ]: So they determine. That's correct. [Speaker 4 ]: And I remember, Will, for the AOE, at least, they're having enough trouble getting people to come and work for them. That was one of the big perks. You know? No. We can't give you more money, but you can Work for three or four, even five days a week, yeah, work somewhere else. [Chair ]: We don't know if that's gonna change in five years either. So, you know, the the question that we need to ask ourselves, yeah, we can take some of this office space offline. But in five years, are people really gonna wanna come back to the office? Because they're finding maybe it's too isolating. Maybe they're not connecting with their colleagues, and and you're dealing with us in construction. [Speaker 4 ]: Well, so that's that's my question. [Eric Pembroke ]: So these buildings down here, which really aren't worth much at this point, but the land is always valuable. Mhmm. Why wouldn't we knock them down and just turn it into a park for now, but hold the land just in case down the road, we do need to build something? Alright. And I think so all of that is being studied right now through the flood mitigation team to what exactly do you do with these locations or You're [Chair ]: talking on the capital complex. You're not talking to Baldwin. [Eric Pembroke ]: I'm talking Baldwin because that's St. Baldwin. I'm talking Baldwin. Right? You were talking good. [Mary ]: That's like that's good land. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. That's that that's high ground. It is high ground. It is high ground. [Mary ]: I just hate to once it's gone and someone else owns it, [Eric Pembroke ]: you never get to have that in your house. When it's gone, it's gone. Anyway, I just I would I'd be I wouldn't give it away, but, you know, it's they don't make any more land. No. They do not. Nope. That's it. [Chair ]: I'd give it away, Sean. Yeah. Agreed to say. Say. I know. We agreed [Speaker 2 ]: in the [Eric Pembroke ]: I know. I just I would I I'd push back. Fourteen sixteen comes with its challenges because of the the property boundaries and what you could really do there. Yep. Nine may be more interesting. [Chair ]: But it's more hilly. Isn't it? It is. It's hilly. [Eric Pembroke ]: But it's but it's but the at the site, I think, is is potentially a little easier to use than, like, fourteen sixteen. [Chair ]: Are you, have any options on those properties right now? [Eric Pembroke ]: We have interested parties that are going to be touring next week. Yes. But okay. [Chair ]: And if that falls through, if they're interested, they didn't take a look at it, and then, it's not gonna work. We could revisit this. [Eric Pembroke ]: Once it's gone, it's gone. Never get it back. [Chair ]: Right. Land. We couldn't revisit it. [Eric Pembroke ]: If you if you if you if you Yeah. Keep them idle, it still cost us money to do that. I'm talking like But if you take them down because that's, like, that's a day. If you take [Speaker 2 ]: if you [Eric Pembroke ]: take them down. Exactly right. It's it's a there's no cost for us to maintain as it's there. Right? Per day. As they sit there, we we pay to heat Yeah. To make sure everything is up. [Chair ]: I'm just like, fill it in, plant grass, cut the grass. Right. But are there historic preservation issues with them? [Eric Pembroke ]: Ask any questions. Fourteen sixteen, I don't believe so. Nine, I do believe so. Yeah. [Chair ]: So we gotta play in with that. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And and this is getting into the weeds probably, but what would the additional tax revenue be if we sold that building? How much would someone pay on that potentially? Like, what would the estimated tax I [Chair ]: don't know [Eric Pembroke ]: what that number is, but I can certainly get that. Thousand bucks a year. Yeah. I mean, it's I mean, they're call it half a million dollar location, so it's the tax off that. Okay. Yeah. It's meant. So, [Chair ]: Kim, any keep that in the back of your mind? I mean, there are [Eric Pembroke ]: Fourteen sixteen is nine is definitely has historical Yeah. Not fourteen. House. Sixteen does not. It's a quite a lot. So [Chair ]: A lot. Keep that in mind. If if the interested parties are looking at it and that really doesn't go anywhere, which we would know as the session progresses. [Connor ]: Yes. [Eric Pembroke ]: Absolutely. [Chair ]: Might be something we want to revisit. We can follow-up with that. [Eric Pembroke ]: Sure. I can I can give an update on progress? [Chair ]: Properties on the market, and then we pulled them off the market, and then we'll put them back on the market. We did that with Redstone. Secretary Yes. We put on the market. We took it off the market. We put it on the market. We took it off the market, and finally, we put it back on the market. [Speaker 2 ]: So we've done that. [Eric Pembroke ]: That one's high and direct. [Chair ]: No. But we it. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes, ma'am. [Chair ]: So and that's how when we do the capital build, there's items that get added on. That's not in the governor's recommend. And this is a good example. [Eric Pembroke ]: I'll just give a couple more highlights. Upcoming projects, one we're working on, which is is another lease at a nine Main Street is the Department of Financial Regulation. And we're we're gonna we're going to decrease their footprint by about sixty percent with a new lease going to this hybrid office, model, and renegotiate that lease to a lower rate than we're currently paying. So we view that as a pretty big success, a pretty big win. If you walk through there, they have way more space when the original lease was negotiated. Because of the flood, the Green Mountain Care Board, which was in one forty four, which is now a shell, We actually are putting them into lease space in one twelve State Street, and they're they're actually going into smaller space because we're, again, we're following this model and able to make that work. [Chair ]: Oh, one is one twelve State Street? [Eric Pembroke ]: That's a great question. So it's a condo. So the state owned [Chair ]: Is that the one with the bank? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Chair ]: Oh, yeah. We built that way back with Chittendank, and then they built it and we leased [Eric Pembroke ]: We own two floors and we leased the top floor. [Chair ]: I remember that. So we have a trunk with a carpet. [Eric Pembroke ]: So Yes. [Chair ]: And then we have to net a chip in and bank to walk away. That was back in the nineties we did that one. [Eric Pembroke ]: So a couple more. Our real estate workplace strategy is, you know, KPIs and data driven decision making. So, we do mobility profiles. So anytime before we work with a client to either optimize their space, make their space bigger, we do what we call mobility profile. How often are you in the office? Who needs offices? Who needs workstations? That helps us define our square footage. Go slow, grab all the pavements that do change over time. And then change is easier, certainly easier in general office space and admin space than it is in any of the specialty spaces. So ebbing and flowing in general office space, you can flex up or flex down. The other specialty space, anytime you make a big change to those, it costs a lot of money. And the last slide is a little bit of the challenge is so how do we how do we optimize and and and conduct utilization of our office space to support teleworking policies and aid in more equitable and predictable space management. So that that's a huge challenge right now because each agency is doing it a little bit differently. So we're working with agencies independently to try to hit a target with each agency. And then last but not least is resiliency. Obviously, the flood has showed some of that a lot of our locations are in based in downtown communities, some of those downtown communities around rivers. We still have a handful of buildings that we have not reoccupied. So how do we be how are we resilient to those to those events? So those are some of the challenges that we have coming up. Really, the big one is how do we optimize and utilize trying to hit that target. [Chair ]: So is it different with h a agency in terms of the remote work? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. It's agency. The telework policies are, driven by each agency head. [Chair ]: And how much does the union and the union contract play into any of this at all? [Eric Pembroke ]: That is a question that I do not have the answer to you or know the answer to. [Chair ]: It does. It's curious. Yeah. And for the new folks, this is the other thing that's come into my mind. You know, we talk about agencies and departments, and there's a real difference between an agency and a department. I don't know if you've been brought up on this or not. So on a high level surface, we have the agency of natural resources. We have the agency of transportation, the agency of human services, and then, of course, the agency of administration. But, like, within the agency of human services, that's your overarching agency. That's your overarching part of that government of that those issues. You have a secretary of the agency. So head person. Within that agency, you've got departments. So in the agency of human services, you have a department of mental health. You have a department of aging and independent living, Dale. You have a department of corrections. You have a department of health. DCM. A department of children and family services. And for each department, you have a commissioner that runs that department. Mhmm. The the commissioner answers to the secretary. The secretary answers to the governor. Secretary is a part of the governor's cabinet. So they're the they're the big honchos. And then your department heads and I mean, your depart your departments the head of your departments are the commissioners. So they work with the folks who are employed in the department. The department may the divisions Yes. Which carry out specific conditions. So what you'll find when in testimony, you're gonna hear a lot from commissioners, also your department heads. You'll hear from the secretaries at times. You'll hear from the secretaries. Sometimes they wanna come in. We give an overall overall view of their agencies. But that's in very high level how state government is structured. And everybody answers to the governor. Yep. [Mary ]: And not that it's super relevant, but it's handy to know for new people if you don't know this already. Not all agencies are created equal, so to speak. There's, you know, human services, which is massive. Education, not so big. And the IT, whatever it's called. [Chair ]: There is. They're an agency of digital service. [Eric Pembroke ]: And [Mary ]: but that's very small. So they're very different sizes. [Chair ]: Well, today, there was an executive order. Yep. Today, we got that or yesterday? [Speaker 2 ]: I just [Eric Pembroke ]: did. Today, [Chair ]: there was an executive order. If you got your packet or you said remind, there's an executive order from the governor. It's gotta be reviewed by government operations committee, but the governor's executive order is changing the Department of Public Safety. [Mary ]: To the agency. To the agency. [Eric Pembroke ]: To the agency. [Chair ]: The agency. The public safety, which is a real shift. So the commissioner of public safety, if that happened with and it's the same person, would then become secretary of that agency. And then you would have different departments. Now within the department of public safety, there's divisions. [Mary ]: Yep. And there's also for agencies, and it's not gonna happen this year, but it started last year ish, is discussion serious discussions about splitting agency of human services in two. Well, that some of us like that idea more than others, but it's because it's so massive. So basically, it'd be I forget what they would be, but they're two different two different ones. So there's a lot of different moving parts, but just something to keep in the back here more than [Chair ]: So in DOC's area, and I've and the commissioner said this in one of his initial testimonies before us, is here in Vermont, Department of Corrections is housed within the agency of human services. That is done because they're all dealing with the same point of time, one way or the other. Folks who are incarcerated have kids in DCF or they're dealing with Dale or mental health or they have family members. So there's some cross pollination there. So that's NDOC. Our state policy for corrections is rehabilitation. It's not punishment. It's in our green books. It's in statute. So in a lot of other states, Department of Corrections is under public safety. They're under law enforcement. And sometimes there's been a push in this body to move DOC under law enforcement. But that's a real fundamental change of delivery of services. And it's a fundamental change of language. Because right now in corrections, the head of a correctional facility is called a superintendent, not a warden. So if you visualize, you hear the word superintendent, what do you visualize? If you hear the word warden, what do you visualize? A nightstick or something. And then our staff, our officers in the units in our world, they're called correctional officers. Under public safety, they'd be called guards. So it's the vocabulary is different, which gives you a different you think of it a little different. So just to kinda put that on the table for people to mull over as well. So you're gonna hear, well, the agency of this, the department of this, there is a different structure there. Questions? [Connor ]: Oh, about that in particular or just No. [Chair ]: But I I do wanna talk a little bit about the capital complex with those five buildings just to explain what's happened to them with the flood. I know we're not gonna get into FEMA or anything like that, but we have five buildings here. Four or five? Four. Is it four now? Four. [Eric Pembroke ]: Four? Four. Four. That was five. It's four now. You can make it five. [Chair ]: Well, they're uninhabitable because of the flood. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. They are. [Chair ]: So they're empty. They house the Green Mountain Care Board. They house the auditor. The agency of got back in there. Right? [Eric Pembroke ]: They did. Arts council. [Chair ]: Arts council. And then one tenth State Street that we were gonna sell. [Eric Pembroke ]: We're back in. [Chair ]: We're back into that? Yep. And what's back in there? Oh, like the arts. [Eric Pembroke ]: State's attorney and actually the auditor. [Chair ]: Right. State's attorney worked in there because we were gonna read one? [Eric Pembroke ]: No. Okay. [Speaker 2 ]: No. Can you put all those smaller groups into one building? [Eric Pembroke ]: We're looking at that. [Speaker 2 ]: Okay. To make it more [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Speaker 2 ]: Price? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. So, unfortunately, one ten is one of those locations of buildings that, again, square foot per person, no matter it is made up of, I think, fifty or sixty percent stairways, elevators, always. So [Chair ]: Slice straight up. Yeah. Mhmm. When we had the flood in July last year, I mean, the water came. We talked to the steps of the state house. [Mary ]: One forty four was full. [Eric Pembroke ]: One forty four was full. [Chair ]: One thirty three was [Eric Pembroke ]: One thirty three of the [Chair ]: The whole basement. [Eric Pembroke ]: All of the basement spent many days here looking things up. Yeah. [Chair ]: And the issue with our buildings is we have all the mechanical, the building in the basement. Mhmm. So when it floods, the control panels, your heating system, your elevators, because your elevators go to the bottom, you lose it all. So if we revamp the four buildings that we can no longer inhabit because of the flood, you gotta work with the mechanics. You gotta get them out of the basement. Oh, that's first thing. [Eric Pembroke ]: That is that's that is new code has to be. Mhmm. Anyone that rebuilt post flood had to bring all of their their controls or comp any mechanical out of their basements. Put them put them on the first at least the first floor. [Chair ]: So what we did in one thirty three? [Eric Pembroke ]: We are it's still in it's still still being done. A lot of things have gone out and up, but there's there's constant work going on doing that now. Yeah. Makes sense. So then you're either losing internal square footage or you're Okay. You've got ancillary buildings. Exactly right. One or the other. You move it to another floor out of the basement. Exactly right. [Chair ]: And some of these are replacing something. Homes. They're a resident just on one one of the buildings were the arts council. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. That was That's [Chair ]: the way he's [Eric Pembroke ]: home. Absolutely. Good. Yeah. [Chair ]: And if you try to put mechanicals up on the it's the top floor of a home residential home. Not gonna work. Yes. I'm gonna work with structure. You can't even hold them. But [Eric Pembroke ]: I forget if you wanted to maintain how what Joe knows the height, but there's a height that you would have to raise the entire bill. It's it's For flood resilience. Yeah. It's [Chair ]: raise the bill. That's [Eric Pembroke ]: really substantial. Mhmm. [Chair ]: So those are all things at some point this committee will get into because at this point, the State can't do anything to these buildings until we resolve the whole FEMA issue. And if you start working on these buildings, those four buildings, if we start doing any work on that, you can negate your FEMA reimbursement. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yep. [Chair ]: So we're on hold here. It's been a year and a half. Mhmm. And those buildings are deteriorating as we go along. And this committee went through all of this when we rebuilt Waterbury. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Chair ]: Went through all of it. [Eric Pembroke ]: And obviously, a job well done because Waterbury, believe it or not, the office space no longer floods. [Chair ]: Right. [Eric Pembroke ]: But we lot brings up some water, but the building itself does not receive any water. [Chair ]: That was Okay. [Connor ]: It's good work in the river behind there too. That's Yeah. Yeah. [Chair ]: We built it for the five hundred year five hundred year flood plus, I think. [Eric Pembroke ]: But there there were some at least one building that was raised in the complex there as well. Was there not? In Waterbury. Yes. [Chair ]: That was the lab. We'd already done that. That was state police, and that was the front [Eric Pembroke ]: That was built to the, yeah, five hundred year standards. [Chair ]: We did that previous to the flood. The Irene, we did that previously when we built [Eric Pembroke ]: that. So Connor. [Connor ]: Oh oh well well I have the mic I I just want the yeah. Well end the week agreeing with governor Scott there and that like you know, we need eight thousand new housing units a year, right? And there could be no sacred cows. What the chair said is really, you know, at some point we gotta decide, are we going back to telecommuting or is this a new reality? I'd also throw in this hundreds of vacancies in state government right now. There were a thousand last year. I think it's down to, like, probably eight hundred or something. So that's impacted and that and that's not something we know at this point with buildings. But and I am introducing legislation on it, so it'll probably come to this committee. [Chair ]: Another internal terrorist. [Speaker 2 ]: Like, it's [Eric Pembroke ]: Deloitte, and [Chair ]: now we got caught. Yeah. [Connor ]: I've been called a terrorist before. Alright. But but I yeah. That's exact but, you know, got this transcript things in the calendar. [Mary ]: I do see [Connor ]: there is an absurdity to me in some sense that we give millions of dollars to other entities to buy land, to build housing. I think [Eric Pembroke ]: we need [Connor ]: to look at all options on the table and a comprehensive approach, and that means looking at state land too. And if if getting that land to develop a ton of units makes sense, we should consider it. So Yeah. Makes sense. It's a very modest bill. We'll we'll talk about it later. [Chair ]: AOT AOT has land too. AOT. [Speaker 4 ]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. [Chair ]: They have LAN. That's awesome. How can we have so much fun? [Eric Pembroke ]: Right? Wow. [Chair ]: Anything else? Anybody dares? Quarter or two on Friday. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. You went past the one fifteen questions. So One day. Yeah. I've got stuff, none none of which is so important that I can't wait until Tuesday. [Speaker 2 ]: That sounds good. [Mary ]: Yeah. If you have time. [Eric Pembroke ]: I want fifteen. [Chair ]: Oh, you can always ask it offline. [Eric Pembroke ]: Yeah. That is fine. It's good. Very good. I just might. [Chair ]: Anything else? Are you involved with the property management fund, or is that someone else? [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. [Speaker 2 ]: Yes, he says. [Chair ]: Because we're gonna have [Eric Pembroke ]: Yes. It's both. Exactly right. [Chair ]: We We're gonna have conversations about that at some point because some people ask about that. Yep. Particularly if we sell one zero eight cherry, five, six million of that goes there first, the proceeds. [Eric Pembroke ]: It's not five or six million dollars in proceeds. So Right. Yes. [Chair ]: We'll probably have some language adjustment in the capital. Okay. So [Speaker 2 ]: good to see you again. [Mary ]: Thank you for [Eric Pembroke ]: taking a [Chair ]: wait. Again and again. [Eric Pembroke ]: Absolutely. Oh. [Chair ]: So we are done for the week back here on Tuesday, the Tuesday afternoon.

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